EPTWorld Heavyweight Championship Mafia II
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
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gumshoe
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On March 26 2014 05:06 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well you can just say "lynch gumshoe".  ) ; | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 26 2014 08:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: gumshoe why Robik over anyone else? He is an outsider in part. Of tl, and yet not of tl, he would make a fine puppet. I said as much in the post : P | ||
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On March 26 2014 08:38 Palmar wrote: There is no reason for him not to answer you as any alignment, but I guess it is actually reasonable to think there is a small chance of panic and overexplanation. Scum can be reasonable as well : P and this game is pretty stacked, mistakes this early on are not to be expected. I'm curious Palmer, what kind of reaction were you looking for out of Rayn, knowing farily well hed have an easy time answering your question as either alignment? | ||
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On March 26 2014 08:53 Palmar wrote: If rayn does not have an explanation to his question it makes the question pointless and thus rayn more likely to be mafia. But it is likely that a response will come easily, all you do if Rayns scum is strengthen his position in thread after an easy question, and I dont bilieve you honestly couldnt come with your own explanation for why Rayn asked his question of me. Therefore I find your question not only pointless, but harmful / : | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 26 2014 08:54 Palmar wrote: The point being that I did not see how any answer I expected could possibly have revealed anything about your alignment. Eh, my attention is on robick for virtually no reason, maybe were scum together, bam, easy / : took me 5 seconds, and obviously you weren't that stalwart in your suspicion because you conceded there was a point to the questionafter one response from Rayn. Maybe your just trying to kick start the thread, but I highly doubt you really put much stock in what youve said so far / : | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: wait what? Asking questions is scummy because it makes mafia gain town credit? What kinda shitlogic is this? MEGA LOGIC Im saying his question was dumb, which is funny because he accused you of much the same, and the only outcome of that question was that you would answer it and come off looking strong, regardless of your alignment. Whereas your question was directed at someone (me) known to crack under pressure as scum and who had done so in a game you and palmer had just played. That question was perfectly fine. | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 26 2014 09:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: gumshoe i am interested. Do you think Palmar is mafia? I do not for a second think he could not come up with his own valid reasoning for your question twoards me and I dont see how he could imagine you in any world giving something up in response. As if when your scum you dont bother with reasons, whereas the opposite is true, your far more careful as red and he should know that. The outcome of the question is inevitable, you look capable, he gives ground, it was unlikely to go any other way(and I dont see what other path he could have honestly imagined) and therefore it was pointless. Hes either fienting in an effort to kick start or hes scum trying to fit in. One thing for sure though, hes not bieng genuine atm. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:10 Palmar wrote: You're assuming I think rayn is smarter than me. I did not consider the option that you might panic and overexplain, or any other scenario that makes the question reasonable, thus I wanted to find out if rayn had considered any scenario where him questioning you might lead to something. Please explain how it was harmful. I assumed you thought Rayn was smart, not smarter, in fact my whole issue with you is I know how smart you actually are ( : I find your question harmful because you must have expected him to answer with ease, which in no way benefits town if hes scum. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:08 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am pretty sure Palmar did not accuse me of anything. If rayn does not have an explanation to his question it makes the question pointless and thus rayn more likely to be mafia. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:07 raynpelikoneet wrote: I'll reword the question: Do you think he is scummy because; 1) he is asking useless question, or 2) he took my answer at face value? In my opinion these are different things and you have now said both of them. 1) Yes 2) Yes Because the two are intwined, the question implied he had a difficult time understanding your inquiry, something hard to bilieve in of itself, and the acceptance was almost immediate, thereby showing his confusion was weak at best. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:22 marvellosity wrote: If you believe this, should you not be voting for him? What is the alternate, townie explanation for not being genuine but trying to appear so? Trying to kick start the game, countless times, people have had meaningless conversation just to get things going. He may be doing that now, if you are Palmer wouldn't mind some confirmation / : Also I only ninja vote. Dems the breaks / : | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:26 Palmar wrote: Also regarding genuine, no matter my alignment I would always be genuine right now. There is a reason I asked rayn the question, and that reason exists whether or not I am mafia or town. So why do you say I am not genuine? I agree with you, a reason does exist, when the reason is some other than "Asking this question of rayn because I think hes scummy" I consider it not genuine and I'm forced to consider other reasonings other than the prefered default. As for why your not literally genuine, 2 reasons 1) I dont believe you couldnt come up with a reason for him asking me that question. 2) Going by the first bit. I dont understand why youd ask that question knowing how easy it is to answer. 3) Your quick acceptance indicated your confusion was meh, possibly non existant. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:28 Palmar wrote: I claim that the answer was really short and I'm a fast reader! The multitude of answers to your questions were so vast, I dont doubt youd easily recant regardless rayns response. I claim you knew this outcome, so why ask the question. Let me ask you Palmer, what answer were you looking for out of Rayn? What response would have made you think hes scum? | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:33 raynpelikoneet wrote: See gumshoe here is my problem. I am a player who asks questions, obviously. When i ask questions, assuming i am not questioning something i do not understand, there are expected answers: 1) scummy type of answer, or townie type of answer, or both 2) answer i did not expect which leads to further investigation Now i don't always expect people to understand why i do ask questions i do in the first place. That would defeat the purpose of my play in total. If you can tell what my question is going to achieve you know (as mafia) how you should be answering it. Right? So, my question to you is: I don't understand why do you assume Palmar should assume what i am thinking and why i ask what i do. How do you suggest town!Palmar should read me if he is not "allowed" to figure out my motives behind my posts? Or do you think it's reasonable to assume Palmar should have realized what i was after? Did you know what i expected town!gumshoe to answer when i asked you my question? I did ( : but thats just cause I'm me. You claim palmer was trying to figure you out, but as I qouted earlier If rayn does not have an explanation to his question it makes the question pointless and thus rayn more likely to be mafia. He found you scummy because of your question, he wasnt just trying to find out your intent. Point is, I dont see how he could have anticipated the intent you chose to reveal bieng scummy. Therefore the only likely outcome of the question is that you both come to an understanding. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:36 Palmar wrote: If the bolded is true I am mafia for asking that question, no matter what. The only answer you accept as genuine can not possibly be given at that point in the thread because it's completely unreasonable to think rayn is scummy at that point. Thus by your own definition I must be mafia for asking that question and there is no need for you to follow up on it, as any answer I give will always make me mafia in your eyes. ##Vote gumshoe Not necessarily ( : if you ask the question to kick start town, which you stated you were trying to do, then your town, albiet deceitful, so answer me, is that what you were doing? | ||
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I asked first. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:41 raynpelikoneet wrote: No gumshoe. That's saying "if he didn't have an intention behind the question i would find him scummy". He said he could not think of a reason, therefore he thought you were scummy. Which is bull cause theres no way he couldnt think up a reason, therefore he is not genuine for whatever reason. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:43 raynpelikoneet wrote: Like the same thing as my question to you: "A variety of answers are null, but there is a possibility of scummy one." Why did you figure that out from my question but not from Palmar's? Because my history indicates that such line of questioning is effective against me, whereas such a question directed against you would only make you look stronger regardless of alignment. If hes town, asking that question does him little good. I dont think town palmer would find you scummy for your question, and if he did he wouldnt ask a question that improves your position if your scum 99 out of 100 times. Therefore he is not genuine. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote: Can you point out where he says this? The point being that I did not see how any answer I expected could possibly have revealed anything about your alignment. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:49 Palmar wrote: I think you think I think rayn is better at scum than I think he really is. Rayn IS a good scum player, you are a good player period who has played in a multitude of games with Rayn. I dont see how you could expected him to balk under such an easy question. | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay so we obviously disagree about the meaning of that post. I think i am right given Palmar's earlier posts which point towards me being right. You think your right cause you always think your right XD but then again so do most people : P myself included. I guess I'm done talking about palmer till he answers my question, as for why you should Palmer, cause pretty please? I'll bake you a cake : D | ||
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On March 26 2014 09:56 Palmar wrote: Which questions did I not cover? And you still need to explain why the magic phrase "I was trying to create discussion" is a get out of jail free card. Not until you answer definitively yes or no. That is the question, the only question I have of you. | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:03 Palmar wrote: which one, whether or not I was trying to create discussion? Seeing as I posted as much in the next post after I asked rayn the question I thought the answer should be default, did you not notice that? And no, it's an opportunity to do something that may or may not provide something useful, so yes I was creating discussion and no that wasn't the sole purpose of the question. Do I get to go home now officer? Yeah sure, in case you were wondering about the trap card, I wanted to see how paranoid you were at the thought of a trap, which you weren't really, just sort of indolent towards the whole notion. I has no issues with you as of now. | ||
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Do you think you will get an answer from gumshoe that has any chance of moving your read on him forward? If so, what kind of an answer would make you lean one way or the other? If rayn does not have an explanation to his question it makes the question pointless and thus rayn more likely to be mafia. The point being that I did not see how any answer I expected could possibly have revealed anything about your alignment. Between these 3 qoutes, said in relative succesion, do you not agree that Palmar found Rayn somewhat scummy? Why is Rayn so stalwart in denying Palmars misgivings? | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:14 Palmar wrote: I wasn't wondering about the trap card. By your own definition I am still mafia because I was serious about my question without previously thinking rayn is scum, so how can you have no issues with me? I literally just said that there exists a reason for me asking rayn that question that isn't a) to start a discussion or b) because I think rayn is scummy. bolded is a Lie Also, why do I get an out if I say "I was trying to kickstart discussion"? And you still need to explain why the magic phrase "I was trying to create discussion" is a get out of jail free card. As for my definition [spoiler]Trying to kick start the game, countless times, people have had meaningless conversation just to get things going. He may be doing that now, if you are Palmer wouldn't mind some con firmation / :You admitted you were just trying to generate discussion for the most part, my own laws do not bind me in this matter. Also I just dont think your scummy anymore, disappointed? | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:19 gumshoe wrote: Marv, while your here I'm curios, look at these 3 qoutes by palmar. Between these 3 qoutes, said in relative succesion, do you not agree that Palmar found Rayn somewhat scummy? Why is Rayn so stalwart in denying Palmars misgivings? Qoute 1: Rayn is asking a question qoute 2: If rayn doesnt have a good reason for asking the question I consider him scum. qoute 3: I cant think of any reason for him to ask the question, therefore the question is scummy. No one knows what palmers thinking, we only have his words to be sure of, and his words heavily suggest he found you scummy at the time of his question. Why do you work to refute that? | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why do you leave out the post where he contributes to my answer? Why are you selectively quoting posts and not taking account the whole conversation? That qoute comes after your answer, I am asserting that prior to it he found you scummy, you are saying he didn't, I am not selectively qouting, I am merely assembling the relevant quotes  | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: I give up. Wow, our surrender timing was identical 0_o We are equally stubborn. No more no less. | ||
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On March 26 2014 12:26 IAmRobik wrote: I started reading this and thought it was super scummy. Then you said my name and I didn't understand the rest of what you posted, so I will withhold judgement for now. Definitely leaning scummy from this post though. Shhhhh sweet puppet prince, let your trusted advisors do your thinking for you :D lest you strain your brain in the attempt. | ||
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Looking back though, this may not have been pro alignment indicative, when I read through the last good maf game I played, something really interesting came up. Toad was agreeing and arguing with cav(relatively new player) as equals at one point, Toad was scum and the scum coach advised toad to stop doing that, cause theres no reason why town toad would really care about what some random newb had to say. I feel the same applies here, hear the tone of these responses. There is no reason for him not to answer you as any alignment, but I guess it is actually reasonable to think there is a small chance of panic and overexplanation. You're assuming I think rayn is smarter than me. I did not consider the option that you might panic and overexplain, or any other scenario that makes the question reasonable, thus I wanted to find out if rayn had considered any scenario where him questioning you might lead to something. Please explain how it was harmful. If the bolded is true I am mafia for asking that question, no matter what. The only answer you accept as genuine can not possibly be given at that point in the thread because it's completely unreasonable to think rayn is scummy at that point. Thus by your own definition I must be mafia for asking that question and there is no need for you to follow up on it, as any answer I give will always make me mafia in your eyes. ##Vote gumshoe Compare those answers to this If we first assume that the only reasonable answers to your question are "yes" and "no", then yes I can. If I am mafia, it should be obvious that answering the question "yes" (and thus truthfully) would increase the chances of me getting lynched significantly. It is not as obvious that a "no" answer as town will increase the chances I get lynched, and thus reduce town's chances of winning the game. The thing is a hard "no" answer to this question is not what I'd usually do as town. A more likely answer from me would be along the lines of "bitch please", "no, are you?" or "no, but I know who is *reasons*". All of those answers are both truthful and would (in my opinion) decrease the chances of me being lynched. However the short, hard "no" I would think is slightly suspicious coming from me. This is arguable, but I'd put the increased chance of me being lynched from the hard "no" at maybe a percent or so, small, but still valid. However what I'm surprised you haven't picked up on about Palmar is how inconsistent he is when presenting that original statement. The refusal to truthfully answer the question is based upon desire to win the game. The entire reason he does not provide the answer is that he thinks he cannot do so truthfully without decreasing his chances to win. However, given that the refusal is based on his own speculations about the game and how town might react to his statements, he should have also been able to deduce that the refusal would put him under even more scrutiny than answering "no" as town. This contradicts his initial motivation for not answering, as not providing the answer means he's under more suspicion than he would be if he answered truthfully as town. This leaves only the option that Palmar is scum, as then, and then only, would the suspicion be increased by a truthful answer compared to no answer. And while that wasn't his original baseline, the motivation for the answer given implies that's the case. I would vote for Palmar but seeing as he is me and that would once again reduce my chances to win I'm afraid I can't. But I hope people notice this contradiction in his play. This is how he responded to an accusation as town in the last game he played, with the utter confidence of someone who doesn't really care about being lynched. The accusation was also coming from Rayn, a decidedly better player than me, in fact the only time palmer has ever played with me was in that same game wherein I played atrociously. So the question comes to mind, is palmer giving my accusation the time of day because he feels confident he can answer it yet not confident enough too dismiss it as the ramblings of a lesser participant, or does he feel pressured to answer because as scum he feels the need to be perfect? Similarly, I dont like how Holy backed Thrawn regarding rayn then turned on him pretty quick when he realized he was a better target. I dont understand why people believe Thrawn is more likely to take stupid leaps as scum, when his submissive behaviour would prove all the more effective. Holy, Rayn, why do you think sloppiness is indicative of Thrawns scum play? Can you provide examples where he takes insane leaps that make him look like scum? | ||
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On March 27 2014 02:54 Palmar wrote: Sure! HF town for arguing with rayn gumshoe town for calling me mafia prplhz hero for voting marv rayn maybe town for arguing a lot robik maaaaybe town thrawn idk phagga idk marv mafia for calling me mafia There you go! Why am I town for calling you mafia but Marv is scum 0_o | ||
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I think you're reading way too much into it. Palmar asked a question because he was curious as to rayn's motives, rayn answered, life moves on. Well, except that it didn't of course. If someone finds something odd/weird/eye-brow raising then it's reasonable to ask a question to find out if said oddness is just oddness or scummy oddness, and I don't think it's particularly fair to think that Palmar should have a bunch of potential rayn answers in mind when he asked the question. I'd quite like to murder Palmar. Who's in? Palmer barely posted inbetween these two stances of yours, what specifically changed your mind about plamar? Or rather what set you on his trail when prior you were pretty content to let him slide? | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:00 Holyflare wrote: The fuck are you saying tram? I turned on him when i proved he was a liar and then admitted it and then called rayn mafia for the remaining time and has ninja unvoted him while still calling him mafia. Why you not read thread? How do those things prove hes scum? It just sounds like shitty town play, and an easy thing to jump on. Explain to me as if I'm five years old how making an obviously terrible accusation and then crumbling under it is the sign of someone trying to sabotage the thread without getting implicated in the process, because it sounds like Thrawns actions accomplished neither of those things. Maybe thats because you and Rayn are awesome and the best townies to ever townie, or maybe its because he was just making a shitty day one read, why is the former more likely? | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:07 Holyflare wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=17#337 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=23#444 2nd link most important link cz ninja unvote 1), What are you saying here? That his vote came after he aired suspicions? Whats wrong with that? 2) He admitted to lying 0_o why do that as scum? It just seems so dumb and reckless, he could always just stay the course instead of opening himself up to more attack. Its shitty yes, but I fail to see how its more likely to be scummy, as what hes saying is more likely to get him into trouble rather than out of it. | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote: gumshoe: Here, read what i wrote on thrawn in the Extractor Mini mafia game. It's on my filter pages 3-4: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/439578-extractor-trick-mini-mafia?user=Raynpelikoneet Can you be more specific just so were on the right page? He ninja voted me yes, as you claimed, does he not that as town? Also another thing to keep in mind was the game in question was instant majority, therefore ninja votes are often scums bread and butter(sure enough I was killed only a few hours into the game, thanks Rayn : P ), thats just not the case here, the vote thread is open for all to see and theres no way he wasnt going to get called out, why put pressure on himself that way as scum? | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:22 Holyflare wrote: No he fucking said he put a vote down on rayn based on the tone of rayns post straight away regardless of the content which A) is tterrible because he voted without reading the content B) is a flat out lie because he asked something based on the content of rayns post before his vote went down anyway So he got caught out in a "lie" and rayn called him mafia for other stuff. Thrawn's reaction is that rayn didn't keep hounding him about being mafia so rayn must be mafia. Thrawn thinks rayn is mafia but ninja unvotes him in vote thread without saying anything about it. Thrawn is mafia I still dont understand the bolded T_T show me the lie, is it the same lie thrawn was talking about? As for the second paragraph, all I see is indecisive belligerent waffling, just as likely in my eyes to be town bumbling(especially out of thrawn, a player I've known to get super high before playing) as it is to be scum pandering. You are asking me to believe we have caught obviusly terrible scum in a game filled with predominantly great players, and I'm just not seeing it / : | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: My case on thrawn: Meta part is explained in my filter from Extractor trick. In that game i claimed cop 1h into the game. thrawn said "you could be mafia for fakeclaiming". I asked him why. His reasoning was "because you also fakeclaimed cop in Witchcraft mini". Just because i did something in some other game does not make me mafia. After that thrawn refused to elaborate more on the reasoning while repeateldy being asked about it. He also made some contradicting things like putting gumshoe into L-1 in IML game then basically said "don't hammer" which made no sense. The point is thrawn does not do stuff that makes no sense or does not not explain his shit as town, he does that as mafia. In this game he does stuff that makes no sense as my quotes above and below, as Holyflares case do explain. Here is the TLDR; from thrawns case which elaborate more on the point i presented earlier. Also there is stuff in his case where the TLDR; does not match up with what he says. His case in full so you can compare; + Show Spoiler + On March 26 2014 17:07 thrawn2112 wrote: then read it again. he's making stuff up and not making any sense. the initial reason I voted for him which I haven';t explained until now, is the tone of his "game" post. it looks very fake and not liek something I expect rayn to write regardless of whatever I think about the content of the post. as to the content... "2) My "town wins this belt" post was indeed a town claim. I was happy rolling town and i don't give a fuck who else is town because i just find two mafia and then town wins the belt. I am also amused that Robik has called my alignment correctly out three times based on my usage / usagelessness. I don't know how he does it and i don't think it's alignment indicative but i am really interested in seeing is so some sort of psychic or what because i have a townread on him in this game. I don't believe Robik yet, i mean, i don't believe that's a reliable tell but we'll see about that when / if he does that a couple of times more and if he is right or wrong." -i doubt rayn doesn't care about winning the belt - "I don't know how he does it and i don't think it's alignment indicative" what the fuck does this even mean? if robik is scum then of course he is not "some sort of psychic" who is excellent at reading rayn. if robik is scum the robik KNOWS RAYN IS TOWN and doesn't need to try and figure out if rayn is town. like... i can't properly explain the problem I have with this quote because I don't even know what the quote is meant to say. it's just nonsense. -this line: "i don't believe that's a reliable tell but we'll see about that when / if he does that a couple of times more and if he is right or wrong." WTF DOES THIS MEAN? it's the same as the earlier quote. rayn is just talking nonsense here which is the easiest way to figure out his alignment. when I read rayn's game my first thought was "ok, rayn is being sarcastic for most if not all of this" so I ask him to clarify if he was actually reading robik as scum but he says all those statements are real? lol Alright, I'm pretty convinced, last thing, can you provide a good town game where thrawn plays sensibly for contrast? | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: - I make a post. - thrawn asks me about the post. - I answer - thrawn votes for me. Later on he says "i initially voted for rayn because of the tone of his post". Him asking me a question and voting for me only after the answer does implicate his statement of the tone of the post is false. This is eh, townies do shit like this all the time (having a judgement in mind but asking a question anyways) but the similarity to Extractor is stunning. The ninja voting. The dumb meta/tone accusation (leveled against you as well) The self contradicting (saying not to hammer when he put me in hammer range) Also in GSl he is more concerned about the game itself, doesnt make as many dumb leaps, barely any in fact. Voting Thrawn. | ||
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Robick= towns puppet prince, not mafias. Holy= A proven scum player, is capable of bussing and providing cases as red, his temper flares and willingness to over contribute imply hes town though, for the moment. Marv= If town, hes making a point of manipulating both factions, he really seems to be playing into the legacy of himself this game, which isnt something I typically see Marv do to be honest / : hes just really playing up the marvellous in marvelosity. Like hes not just setting traps, hes talking about them / : which kinda defeats the purpose, or maybe not, who knows (Marv knows : P). Null Palmar: Still not sure about him, early interactions have left uneasy because a) I still feel his immediate interactions with Rayn were somewhat artificial and b) he responded to my questions well enough, but I'm not sure why he treated me as seriously as he did when he has a precedent of responding to better accusations with anger and mockery. Null leaning scummy. Prplhz=eh(feels genericaly townie) Phagga=eh(feels genericaly scummy, will elaborate on if anyone cares, may elaborate anyways cause I do what I want : P) Thrawn=baaaaah (Holy flare/rayn shepard is best shepard) | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 27 2014 10:36 thrawn2112 wrote: part 3 + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=24#464 this reinforces my town read on rayn. it shows his thought process, like he's thinking about the game as a puzzle, which is how townies approach the game rather than scum who know alignments (page 25) I have a hard time believing marv is serious about this palmar vote. palmar seems kinda townie to me so far. also, marv is refusing to talk to palmar and is not explaining why he thinks palmar is mafia. he's playing it off like he's above having to do those things, but he isn't and he should know that. eh. but marv is just so casual about all of this. i dont know what to think about him atm. Ok, around pages 27-29 my reads on holyflare, palmar, and marv have flip flopped several times, most of it being related to associative tells based on hf and marv pointing out some questionable things that palmar said. So my reads on all 3 of them have weakend (except marv really, i've never had a real read on him) but the reads are still the same. I think i'm losing my townread on phagga. he asked some reasonable stuff at the beginning but he's barely around, and hardly around for very long. it's not very difficult for scum to only say smart things if they don't actually say very many things. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=30#591 lol, prplhz is still hilarious and I still think he's town. the only way he's mafia is if he's going for the "let's only do things and post things that everyone will think is too scummy to be scum" plan gumshoe comes in around pages 32/33 and sorta defends me and i'm not sure how I feel about it. i think this ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=33#658 ) post might be the tipping point, the point where's he's defending me too hard. my problem with gum's position is that it doesn't seem like he's wondering if I could be mafia, he's only seeing things from town-thrawn's PoV. He should at least TRY to see if there is a scum thrawn PoV. sooo scum points for gumshoe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=34#662 then gumshoe caves in and starts scumreading me... was that all it took? he spent two pages defending me and suddenly he flips his read because of a meta statement from rayn that gumshow ust took for granted? I presented a meta argument in your favour to counter the meta one against you. When my reasoning was over turned I conceded for the moment, but I was by no means prepared to completely wright you off as scum and was still eager to hear you out. Do you think that makes me scummy? In regards to your question palmar, main thing was that phagga jumped on robik ( a player known to form early reads) for his early generic town read of rayn, yet later when queried by holy he provides his own bland town read of Rayn o-o. Which gives me the impression he was jumping on a weak player as opposed to finding scum. Annd that's a wrap for me, night town gl. | ||
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On March 28 2014 01:30 Holyflare wrote: because it is so wrong, not reading your pm enables you to be towny because you have no hesitation about finding your partner at that point because you don't know who he is so your entire reason for voting palmar is incredibly weird..... not to mention he actually claimed scum, why haven't you commented on that instead? Cause I'm not there yet : P and I disagree, bieng readable is a big part of bieng town, if you make your self unreadable you can't be trusted. I'm not going to argue with you about this because it's retarded to think otherwise. | ||
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On March 28 2014 01:58 Holyflare wrote: what...? if you are a vt you play the game by finding scum! if you haven't read your pm you play the game assuming your a vt by finding scum how does not reading pm make you unreadable...? It doesn't matter if you've found all the scum on day one, if you look like shit, no one will listen, case in point, Geript. In my eyes, if you haven't read your pm you look like shit, therefore you are not doing everything you can to find scum Oh your a terrible person. | ||
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On March 28 2014 02:14 Holyflare wrote: If you were caught up you'd know he claimed scum...? Read my post. | ||
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On March 28 2014 02:20 Holyflare wrote: Nowhere here does it mention that he claimed scum. Just that he claimed doc. He literally claimed scum. In the thread. To everyone. Nothing to do with the doc thing. Read the bolded, after you learn to read. | ||
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On March 28 2014 02:09 gumshoe wrote: And I'm caught up now, thoughts on the claim are thus. If doc was considering counter claiming, they should strike the thought entirely, right now palmers either making shit up ( in which case he could be lying about bieng doc even if he's town, as his scum claim illustrates) or he's scum. So a counter claim is unlikely to avail us, just out t | ||
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On March 28 2014 02:25 Palmar wrote: Also game now harder to read because the ALL button is gone. Thank me later! You son of a bitch. | ||
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On March 28 2014 02:26 Palmar wrote: I will seriously paypal 10 dollars to the person who can tell me what I am not. This question has a very specific answer. Town? | ||
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There is an off chance marv is mafia but that would mean Palmar was telling the truth about not reading his role PM. In a game where there is only 2 mafia (well in any game, but especially when there is only 2 mafia) i consider that against the game's spirit because if he in fact did that the game becomes a "guess who has red letters after his name" and that is not mafia. So if what he said was true i just consider this game invalid and refuse to believe he didn't read his role PM. What would palmar not reading his role pm have to do with marvs interaction with him? Marv would still know palmer is his scum buddy, do you think Marv would just go after palmer simply because he wasn't talking in qt? Even though palmer had no issue with him throughout the game? | ||
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On March 28 2014 10:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: You know, also funnily enough the second quote is true. gumshoe i don't see the point of you asking what you are. Why are you doing it? I just explained my thought process fully. Yes, i think marv as mafia, would get mad at Palmar in that situation and lynch him. I am asking that question because I think your shit throwing on the towniest person in thread because you feel the need to do something drastic. And I think your doing that because your scum : D | ||
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On March 28 2014 10:32 marvellosity wrote: rayn's not shit-throwing at me, gumshoe. and if he were mafia, he would have absolutely nothing to gain from throwing poop at me. In fact throwing shit at me is a lose-lose situation for mafia. I do think hes mafia though / : | ||
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On March 28 2014 10:32 marvellosity wrote: rayn's not shit-throwing at me, gumshoe. and if he were mafia, he would have absolutely nothing to gain from throwing poop at me. In fact throwing shit at me is a lose-lose situation for mafia. ALSO DONT YOU DARE CALM ME DOWN. Last time people calmed me down, I was going after scum, your gonna listen to my rants and like it! | ||
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On March 28 2014 10:34 marvellosity wrote: Can you give me a better reason other than "rayn is doing something no mafia would ever do in this situation"? because that's not a very convincing one as reasons go I has my reasons : P But I'm gonna pull a marv and air them tommorow, you can guess till the. | ||
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On March 28 2014 10:37 marvellosity wrote: I need to hear them before night ends in case the doctor is a moron. I have died N1 more times than I care to mention with medics in the game. Alright, within the next 12 hours XD but its late here now so moop : P As for the doctor, yeah, probs gonna be a wifom hero. | ||
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On March 28 2014 10:40 marvellosity wrote: As far as I'm concerned, rayn is totally solved as a player to me and I haven't got his alignment wrong in a very long time spanning a great deal of games. And I'm still not digging him as mafia. So yeah. That's not to say I cannot be wrong, but you're gonna have to sell it pretty good. I'll probally make a case on him, itll be bad, and then later on you'll realize I was wright with the wrong reasons, then you just make a better one and well lynch him : D ez pz. | ||
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On March 28 2014 10:41 marvellosity wrote: it is not late in Canada :p but yes, that's fine :> 9:42 mister nsa. | ||
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Rayn, in regard to my accusation against you bieng what I think gumshoe would do(like in the last pyp we played), let me point out just how different this scenario is. In that game I had a clear agenda, people were attacking my scum buddy and I needed to do something drastic to look productive and save him. Scum shoe only does what gumshoe would do if what gumshoe would do lines up with what scumshoe wants to do / : this game, at the time of my read on you, virtually no one thought I was scum and I had no one to protect. I could take my pick of phagga, thrawn or prplz, and then take it from there. Theres was just no reason at the time to build up towns expectations of me with a big accusation. The only reason I accused you was because I had genuine doubts, doubts that mostly stem from my growing suspicion that the easy mark is almost never scum T_T(Perhaps thats merely a personal issue). At the moment, despite my paranoia I dont think the reasons mentioned at the start of this post are fair grounds to go after you when there are players clearly not doing as much for town / : if your town (as is likely) I apologize for an ill advised accusation, if your actually scum, I guess I'll have words with you again when the situation is more dire : P | ||
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On March 30 2014 07:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: screw you even if i go afk for 24h i am more helpful to the town than 80% of the players. that's just bs gumshoe. I said as much 0_0 | ||
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On March 30 2014 07:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: Can you show me one post where i have defended Palmar? I dont think your scum, but I am telling the truth, you really wanna walk down this road? | ||
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On March 30 2014 07:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: No i am curious because i have never ever defended Palmar in this game. So, my question to you is: I don't understand why do you assume Palmar should assume what i am thinking and why i ask what i do. How do you suggest town!Palmar should read me if he is not "allowed" to figure out my motives behind my posts? Or do you think it's reasonable to assume Palmar should have realized what i was after? Did you know what i expected town!gumshoe to answer when i asked you my question? Like the same thing as my question to you: "A variety of answers are null, but there is a possibility of scummy one." Why did you figure that out from my question but not from Palmar's? Do you think gumshoe is mafia? Also why don't you understand Palmar's post, it's pretty clear? Let me make myself Palmar for a second: "I don't get why you are asking gumshoe that shit. I can't think of a reason but maybe there is one. Let's see if there is a reason or not. Otherwise rayn is probably mafia. Okay he told me the reason, hmm.. seems reasonable, no need to pursue this further." Everything after that is explaining the motivation behind the original question. Now why is this not an acceptable scenario given the posts i quoted? I mean of course it's possible Palmar was just lazy scum who was not thinking at all and asked useless shit but is it more likely? I can't tell based on these relevant posts so i consider this a null-tell. So if you have some awesome evidence i have missed which proves Palmar was just making shit up for no reason please elaborate. Your case on Palmar is reaching, your case on me is pure shit. You are either insane or mafia and discussing it with you does not help. Is there anything else? (robik didn't lie, your case on me was bad and invalid, case on Palmar was bad). That's not scummy. I simply refused to contribute more until i could gain more info on the events that were going on, which i think i clearly expressed. You then turn on him (around when marv jumps on palm), but always include a bit of doubt in your read of him. I think game is kinda easy because i don't really see anyone being mafia except for thrawn/Palmar/prplhz. Inclusion of other scum reads to buffer the one on palmer. gumshoe - obviously town for the Palmar argument robik - pretty obviously town Holyflare - insane but most likely town marvellosity - likely town, a lot depends on his play later on but nothing seems scummy to me phagga - not sticking his neck out but atm i ahve no problem with him because he is on the right case Palmar - i don't know what he is doing. could be mafia prplhz - i have absolutely no idea what he is doing. likely mafia thrawn2112 - mafia as per my case Again, a doubtful scum read on him, supplemented by preferred lynches (thrawn prp) Thats generally how scum like to handle thier sinking buddies, they present themselves as willing to lynch them from a reasonable point in the day, but are always prepared to vote for an actual townie. And of course then the prp vote, which conveniently removed you from the proceedings / : There, you made me make the case I didnt want to make / : happy? | ||
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On March 30 2014 07:57 raynpelikoneet wrote: Like i mean noone was like "gumshoe wow, your case on Palmar is so good that totally proves him mafia". noone is like "wow gumshoe you are most likely town because you made a good case on Palmar which we all followed" noone is like "wow rayn you are so scum because you argued against gumshoe's really good case on Palmar at the start of D1". He is perfectly capable of pointing out "shit logic" on his own (which couldn't have been that shit seeing as I was right) yet you felt pressured to do it for him. Let me ask you ,what is the result of pointing out the shit logic of an accusation on someones behalf without even calling the accuser scum, that person is defended. You are defending him. End of story. If you dont want to called out for it, shut your mouth when two people are having a conversation. Otherwise we have to assume you have an agenda, as I have. | ||
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On March 30 2014 08:02 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay i am starting to be annoying, so i'll go to sleep. But gumshoe, defending someone and calling out bad logic are two different thigns. I was not doing the former, ever. This is the exact kind of distinction scum loves to make fyi / : makes it much harder to pin them down. | ||
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On March 30 2014 08:22 thrawn2112 wrote: who is scum? Not Marv, Holy, Rayn(probally) or me. If your actually town, then its an easy answer from there, just gotta choose between prp or phagga / : | ||
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On March 30 2014 08:34 thrawn2112 wrote: i was replying to phagga Sorry ) : | ||
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On March 30 2014 08:39 phagga wrote: @gumshoe Why am I scum? Honestly it's just a process of elimination lynch / : I'm not really considering holy or marv at all and my Rayn read is pretty out there( most likely wrong as well). Moving past the seemingly obvius townies (who are likely to get shot and should therefore not be lynch targets) I actually feel pretty good about prp(no tremendously good reasons as to why, I just kinda do going by his general play). That leaves you and thrawn, so long as one of you is lynched today, I really dont care / : and I'm too lazy to argue why town should choose chocolate over vannila, so thats pretty much where I'm at concerning todays lynch. | ||
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On March 30 2014 08:49 thrawn2112 wrote: gumshoe if you are town you should care, even if it's only for the sake of not setting yourself up to be mislynched if you're wrong It's actually in towns interest to mislynch me, you really dont want me at lylo / : that said, I'm pretty sure my votes gonna stay on Phagga, pretty much because your asking me to reconsider my play when my current course of action is already going your way XD seems like a pretty townie thing to do. | ||
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On March 30 2014 09:28 phagga wrote: So bascially you have no reason to vote me or not vote prp (or vote Thrawn), so you just stick your vote somewhere where it looks fancy? Also, I'm totally Pistachio. So basically your trying to avoid your own lynch by turning it around on the weakest people on your wagon? Hey look at that, I can scummily generalize crappy play too : D | ||
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