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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
On February 19 2014 16:35 Risen wrote: Wave into HF into automatically win. There was no eventual loss. People didn't play well, scum capitalized. HF wouldve never been lynched before either you or me. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 19 2014 14:47 Oatsmaster wrote: Man im sorry for not playing the game as well as I couldve but we wouldve lost eventually. Why did scum let holyflare get so close to being lynched? I think that helped tremendously for the scumteam. We knew I could swing the vote but I decided to drag it on as long as possible for more town cred which played out pretty well. Also, I didn't fake that anger at palmar etc, I was genuinely annoyed that nobody was discussing anything but still voting when people gave no reasoning, hence why it seemed genuine. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
 forgive me veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
The original was undoubtedly town favored, with the long nomination cycles and no scum kill contributing to an atmosphere where the better town players would probably live forever and eventually solve the game, as the earliest LYLO achievable was still a significant chunk of game time in. This was talked about to some degree. The changes made to compensate were a bit drastic. The singular scum NK was just a band-aid on the overall problem - strong townies can dominate this setup. Had marv played more during the ACTUAL lynch phases, I think this game would have been wholly different, but alas, he did not, and we were able to kill him before he got too involved. The length of the cycles was also just too short. Scum controlled time disproportionately, with 2/3 of the game past D1 being of questionable use to town, compared to 3/5 in the original setup. This change doesn't seem that drastic, but 24 hours for town to decide a lynch is not long enough, no matter how much it was discussed the day before. Perhaps 36 hour lynch days balanced against 12 hour dawns + 24 nomination lynches would have been better. You would have kept the 72 hour cycle intact (which I suppose was the objective) while giving town more time to actually play. This might have generated deadline differences, but the deadline isn't as important as the overall amount of time given to town. The town-controlled lynches would have had the same deadline anyway. I think the Nomination mechanic is interesting, but ultimately flawed. TL simply has too many players who are disproportionately good at town for such a demanding mechanic to be viable. As it was, the setup's balancing act actually tipped the scales towards mafia, at least in my opinion. I had no business surviving with how I played this game, especially against Marv/Rayn/Palmar/VE. I only evaded the lynch because town didn't really have the time to consider me properly, given that there were significant distractions within town that overshadowed my lackluster effort. On the last day, there was almost zero margin for error. If I get lynched, the two remaining mafia players have to choose between putting up one of risen/oats (effectively removing an option for the next LYLO's mislynch) or putting one of themselves up and risk losing yet another member and likely the game. Seeing as Palmar/VE were considered town by everyone, they would have been forced into choosing between Risen/Oats and then going all-in on the next LYLO to win, which was much riskier. I will say, I think I played mostly alright D1. It's the second time I've actually been able to successfully mislynch my target of choice. Cora presented himself as a fairly easy target, and I did take advantage of the fact that I knew he would get demotivated if someone called him mafia early on, as is his tendency. But truly, it's not so much that I made it happen, more that the majority of people weren't really trying to find mafia at all D1, so his lynch was basically the only thing that happened. Town only really discussed one other person's alignment in great detail, and that was due to Palmar's successful D1 efforts to put pressure on geript. My play past D1 was fairly bad. I managed to evade the lynch with some effective WIFOM and timely posting, but as Grack pointed out, I was fairly obviously mafia. While I wouldn't have had any more time as town to play this game than I did as mafia (obviously), the difference was that I was clearly motivated to post only as a means to continue to survive, and did not do much aside from trying to confuse town aside from that. I almost didn't fight my lynch at LYLO until I saw Palmar waffling about, and thought I might be able to make something happen. The rest of my team played well. We all had periods of inactivity, but I think we each managed to carry through well enough. Had geript not replaced out, I think we might have ended the game without losing a member, which would have been fantastic. As it was, I don't blame Keir, we all bussed geript somewhat while he was afk. Wave played well enough to fool everyone not-marv for a significant portion of the game. HF played the best, obviously. I didn't read basically anything he posted, but he was out of the discussion completely at LYLO aside from Risen's ill-fated voting, so he obviously did something right. There were 6 actual members of town, and 4 players who cost town the game. Koshi/Grack/VE/Palmar/Marv/Rayn all had their segments of the game where they were either super townie, or spot on with reads, or both. They all played well enough to become unlynchable. In this setup, that is invaluable. If scum has too many good townies to kill, they bascially automatically lose in a setup like this. The other 4 players did not play well enough. Risen, Oats, Vayne, and Cora dragged town down enough that even a bad mafia player like me was able to avoid the lynch. I do not know that there was meaningful analysis anywhere in any of these four filters. Outside of knowing that these players are bad, and expecting them to be bad, there was no good way for a townie to clear them. Unfortunately for town, they could not adequately move past these roadblocks without exceptional insight that no one should be expected to have realistically. I don't think a single player on this forum would have called all four of these players town this game. I read from both Risen and VA that both of them were intentionally playing badly to achieve things that had nothing to do with winning the game at hand. Why is this sort of play tolerated? We all agree, we want everyone to play to win, so why are some players playing simply to effect how people read them in future games? Is it fun to you guys to play with Vayne when his stated objective is to be an unreadable troll? As for Oats, I think there was something different at play. I don't think he plays intentionally to be unreadable, but the effect of his time commitment to this game is just that. I know he's played better before, and most players who played with him could read him fairly accurately, but as of late, I do not see that. Perhaps it is as simple as the amount of time he spends posting in a game. For Cora, I think the problem is literally that virtually everyone is rather mean to him. He is surely an abrasive person, but it does not help that a significant portion of this forum shows active contempt for him and excludes him. Asshole or not, immature or not, he's not going to be readable if he's not involved in the game, and it's exceptionally difficult to do that when everyone's just a prick. Overall, I did not particularly enjoy playing this game. It's fun to win, especially since I've only won one other time as mafia, but it wasn't a satisfying win for me, personally. I do not particularly enjoy being mafia, and despite my efforts to motivate myself, I was unable to stay focused on this game and continue playing at a level I think I am able to play at. I do not know that I'll every enjoy being mafia, I'm just not that kind of person. I also truly did not care to play in a game that no one seemed motivated to play in at all. I do not get the feeling that anyone liked playing in this game, that it was overall a frustrating experience for many. Marv stated being demotivated. VE was obviously frustrated throughout the game. I believe Wave even commented on how un-fun the game was for him at some point. I haven't enjoyed playing as much in the past few games I've joined, so I think I'm going to just take a break from TL Mafia, because I'm not really helping anything. Hopefully, in my absence, some dialogue goes on about how the players on this forum wish the game to be played, and we can agree on some better guidelines for play, but as it is, I don't think I care to play in the current atmosphere. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
I love playing scum and will likely love it every time, maybe because I'm actually decent at it rather than as town, where all I can do is not get lynched. As mafia that's essentially the entire game plan.  | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
In the end, while frustrating, I had a good time playing it mostly. Sometimes. I guess because I took longer breaks from it than I should have. It gets away from you quickly, though that wasn't as much of a problem once the activity on the whole plummeted. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On February 19 2014 18:01 VisceraEyes wrote: I think the NK was unnecessary. Scum can make use of the nomination phases to position themselves if they play proactively, I don't think the original Nomination setup required a change. But I didn't feel particularly hobbled this game by the NK either, I think the game was very winnable as town even with marv getting shot. In the end, while frustrating, I had a good time playing it mostly. Sometimes. I guess because I took longer breaks from it than I should have. It gets away from you quickly, though that wasn't as much of a problem once the activity on the whole plummeted. NK was almost assuredly necessary, given the context of this game. A townie playing properly, as Marv/Rayn/Palmar all did early on, will not be lynched over a mafia player playing anything less than twice as well as they are. It's a rather unfair demand of scum to be less lynchable than the best townies in the game or just concede that they will never die. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On February 19 2014 18:02 VisceraEyes wrote: Like I had lingering suspicion that Palmar was scum playing me the way Wave and HF were ACTUALLY playing me. He was basically unlynchable from the very first Nomination. Imagine if he /were/ scum. But he wasn't. It was literally suicide for any mafia player to be put up in that Nomination. None of us would have gotten through that phase. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On February 19 2014 18:05 VisceraEyes wrote: That's the POINT of the game though yamato, to be townie enough to be nominated for lynch by scum. Scum HAVE to try and play that way too to blend in. It's not the setup's fault that most players don't play that way. I don't think ANY scum player can reliably fake being townier than the towniest townies. | ||
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