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On May 24 2014 08:33 mattisfoolish wrote:
Austin mentioned that Kush is complaining about spaminess, but that's not okay. He's complaining about spaminess but not doing anything to help the town. That's what mafia do and they do so well: tell the town they are sucking, running in circles, or needlessly fighting with each other. It's an easy thing to say and makes it look like they are helping when they aren't. And that's how you catch someone doing that, when they say what the town's problem is but not doing anything to help. Foolish, what should a townie do to help with the spam/infighting?
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And specifically, what should a townKush to to help with the spam/infighting?
I feel like your case is half "here is kush's meta and how he's scummy" and then this bit of "here is general town/scum stuff", but I want to know if you think they match up.
If you think scum generally will complain and do nothing to help the town AND you just read a bunch of kush games and feel like you know kush's meta, do the two match up? Does a townKush actually do something to help town when he complains?
If kush is known for giving zero fucks as a player, that would indicate to me that you can't apply the general rule about town/scum fixing something. I'm not liking how you take both "kush is mafia" sides in your post without noticing that, or without squaring it up.
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elderly heterosexual peruvian, does the above make sense?
slam, same to you.
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On May 24 2014 20:50 Xatalos wrote:
Foolishness is probably most likely town out of the veteran players. Given that the other hydra was town and seemed to believe he should be trusted, as well as the bit from elderly peruvian man about how one head was likely sand (and iirc, some analysis of a specific wording that pointed towards americas or maybe sand in brazil), do you think that in a 5 faction game, a Foolishness hydra and a Sandroba hydra both go townside for balance?
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Does the above make sense to you though? It's more about Foolishness and him saying, all within one post,
Kush is known for giving zero fucks
Townies try to solve the problem (i.e. give fucks), scum do not
Kush is not trying to solve the problem
That's not okay and points towards being mafia
I'll look more into thrawn, poking around yellow right now.
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On May 25 2014 03:20 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 03:09 austinmcc wrote:On May 24 2014 20:50 Xatalos wrote:
Foolishness is probably most likely town out of the veteran players. Given that the other hydra was town and seemed to believe he should be trusted, as well as the bit from elderly peruvian man about how one head was likely sand (and iirc, some analysis of a specific wording that pointed towards americas or maybe sand in brazil), do you think that in a 5 faction game, a Foolishness hydra and a Sandroba hydra both go townside for balance? I think the roles are given out randomly and not based on player skill? Normally there's some consideration for balance. I would not expect a possible Sandroba, Foolishness, and the elderly heterosexual peruvian to be of one faction.
I think a little less strongly that both hydras wouldn't be one alignment. Town hydras strong, town hydras with strong players super strong.
The only issue with this game is the closed setup, so it would be possible that things are balanced around town having strong PLAYERS. But the game would have to be designed BEFORE it was posted, so you wouldn't know who would sign up or hydra, and I don't think you'd balance in light of that. You'd already be set.
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Good to know.
kush, out of people voting you who is the most likely town/scum?
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mattchew, is foolishness a town or a mafia whore?
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On May 25 2014 03:34 kushm4sta wrote:
kushm4sta (7): Xatalos, mattisfoolish, Alakaslam, Cavalinho, Steveling, OnceKing, BlueyD
blueyD looks town just read some of his filter.
steveling looks town but apparently he is supergood scum??
alakaslam is probably scum because 1 hes going after plynches d2 which he does as scum and 2 he's trying
xatalos: dunno What is slam doing with his claiming/giving information away if he's mafia?
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Most games are balanced. Most themed games even. PYP somewhat of a different animal though because you can offer a suite of roles that interact with each other, but you never know what order people will pick and what roles everyone can get.
Are you legit just arguing that you think more games are random than balanced?
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Hapa, I get what you're specifically saying about yellow being scummy on mtam but not moving from his RNG vote over to mtam when mtam is a lynch option.
But I like his little comments.
I still like the early, "Okay, but can't we create a BETTER RNG system?" post. I like his all caps sarcasm lynch thing. He even comes BACK to the RNG thing in responding to Poofter/BlueyD, saying not only that he doesn't think RNG lynching is scummy, but actively arguing FOR RNG lynches. I asked questions about it since this is my second game and no one brought it up in my first game and I wanted to know people's thoughts on it. Nobody really answered though, people either said my idea was good or it was bad, without saying why, no one answered my questions about BH's method and the general idea I got from the thread is that RNG lynches are just not fun, which I don't think is a good argument. That bit is both following up about RNG lynches, "I asked about x and nobody answered me", indicating to me that he is generally interested in this thing and thinks it could be good and is kinda miffed that people didn't answer. He's also pro-RNG in thinking that the no-fun argument is bad.
I don't....he thinks BlueyD's case is bad, was weak, but he doesn't say anything about BlueyD's alignment there. Don't like that.
Catches that Kita is missing a post from BlueyD about mtam, the one where Bluey says "burini", causing Kita to miss something. Generally good unless BlueyD mafia and then POSSIBLE indication that they're same team, that he's overly familiar with BlueyD despite having no read on BlueyD above. Likes the case on BlueyD and votes him, indicating that's not a likely possibility (both same team), and therefore, catching kita's screwup on BlueyD is a positive.
I also generally just like his response to marv? I think it's a legitimate distinction to draw, that he can complain about folks having no opinion but voting, whereas he has no opinion but isn't voting?
Hapa do you think yellow's filter, on the WHOLE is scummy?
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On May 25 2014 03:51 Xatalos wrote:
Dunno, but I think it's somewhat stupid to accuse one veteran player by "process of elimination among the veteran players"? It happens pretty frequently, mainly as a side note.
If you think I am saying "Foolishness seems scummy here SOLELY BECAUSE the other hydra was town and the list of veteran-y players has a bunch of towns in it at this point" then you are mistaken and not reading my posts and I don't like that.
What do you make of Foolishness saying that kush is known for giving no fucks, and then in the same posts saying that his not caring to try and improve the game/fix his concerns is a point against him?
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On May 25 2014 03:57 OnceKing wrote:
why are we even speculating about setup when we can be talking about what thrawn or matt/fool have done that makes them town or scum?
someone tell me why thrawn is scum or town, same for matt/fool hydra while i go read their filters matt/fool hydra feels likely to me right now. Opting out of reading the thread and into only reading certain requests is kinda meh, but doesn't really point in any direction for me.
I really don't like that progression in his kush case AT ALL. I also don't like the way Xatalos is going about sorta-defending him here. Arguing that balance is unlikely is not an honest argument to me, like...whether the game is balanced or not and whether we can do any setup gaming or not, I think it's strange to just argue that balance is unlikely. He also likes fool for a case I dislike, and in talking about him now never seems to consider that I'm not purely looking at FOolishness right now because of balance, but mainly it's that case that got my squinting at him. He says nothing about what I'm saying about Foolishness, despite me having a couple posts in a row on it and despite him liking that case and now someone directly attacking the case and the case-maker.
thrawn is...dunno. I want him to interact with me. Last time that happened I got a really clear read on him, and I'm paranoid that he's avoiding it because of that.
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And saying less.
Agree/disagree that Foolishness is double-dipping or whatever, saying kush is scummy on meta, that part of his meta is not giving a crap, and then calling him scummy for not giving a crap in trying to fix his complaints.
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On May 24 2014 08:33 mattisfoolish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 04:24 austinmcc wrote:
kush. Kush's filter is tiny and not too helpful, but it reads like the right amount of giving no fucks and giving out fuck yous. He complains a little about spamminess, which is fine by me. He complains when people can't understand arguments, which is fine by me. He's not DOING anything really, but in a way that strikes me as town.
This is a correct read but drawing the wrong conclusion; you've essentially given the tl;dr of my case but you didn't do the history check to see what it means for him. As I indirectly said above, what you said is indicative of his mafia play, not his town play. I think we can all agree that Kush is someone who always makes spammy, aggressive one-liners and in general just gives zero fucks. So there's not much to be garnered from that. However this is something to be garnered from how many reads he gives and thoughts about the players in the game. Let me demonstrate this by example. In our game I gathered all the posts where he directly says "I think person X is town/mafia". There's a total of two posts (maybe 3 if I missed one). + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2014 05:55 kushm4sta wrote:i think hapa is scumm because the below plus his case on valeris (or w/e) look like scum cases. Very surface level, generic, uncanny familiarity with what scum do. Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 11:25 Hapahauli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok Valenius can wait. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?page=33#650This is the scummiest post in this thread by far. It is extremely long, and could not be more useless. He's making a show of contributing to the town without actually providing anything in the way of analysis. There's nothing constructive posting one's "reads" in this manner. It's just a giant mind-dump with a bunch of quotes - a format that no one could possibly pick any useful information out of. On top of it, the actual content of the post just shits and shits on random things that players have said in the game. It's a very common type of post for mafia to make, and I'd like to see this guy dead. ##Unvote
##Vote mtanburini Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 11:50 Hapahauli wrote:On May 21 2014 11:43 27ninjabunnies wrote:
See, I don't find tamburini's post all that bad.
Sure it was only focused on certain people, one of them including me, but its nt unlikely for him to include me specifically in his reads because we play video mafia together.
Some of his reads were pretty good, and I like it questioning, though I completely agree some of it was filler. The problem with his post isn't necessarily that every little bit of info is terrible. The problem is the presentation and scope. Firstly, it's almost designed to be the least efficient/effective way of communicating one's reads/information. When a townie finds someone suspicious, they are generally direct about it "I find <xxx> town, and <yyy> suspicious, for <zzz> reason." However this post is just a clusterfuck. His reads are buried in the middle of irrelevant banter, and hell he changes his mind on reads of the course of his post! The post is not designed to be helpful - it's designed to be massive and showy. Ergo, he's trying to appear like he's contributing without actually contributing. Secondly, the scope of the post is just a mess. He just finds random things in the thread that he doesn't agree with and is really snarky about them. That's a really common mafia tactic - to find a bunch of things to critique/shit-on in the thread. It gives the effect of making one appear to contribute, when in reality, nitpicking several posters is generally easy, creates paranoia, and serves no real constructive purpose to actually finding mafia. On May 23 2014 05:49 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 05:41 marvellosity wrote:
the vets who sheeped the Odin case look the worst like me? btw i think wos requesting replacement means he is town Now I went to his filter in his town game, Normal Mini Mafia Episode 1 here and did the same thing. Keep in mind this game only last two days. + Show Spoiler +On January 20 2014 10:13 kushm4sta wrote:thrawn is scum because he's wrong lol On January 20 2014 22:23 kushm4sta wrote:
Feels
thrawn's town.
wiley is town
i think rayn is town
i think VE is town
balla is scummy for being a scumhunter extraordinaire yet doing nothing
On January 20 2014 22:45 kushm4sta wrote:
i think bum is town On January 20 2014 23:03 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
They won't get tucked by counterclaims because a counterclaim doesn't mean anything as there can be more than one Boxer. So there aren't going to be any counterclaims. So when is this magical moment when we suddenly know who all the boxers are Kish? godamn it is turning me on how you keep calling me kish. we know at lylo when all the claims claim. We will probably know before then because that's just what usually happens. fine i agree to disagree with you VE. Still have you as town. On January 21 2014 07:38 kushm4sta wrote:
bum is scum and he is implying that you, VE, are wrong, and therefore town. I'm not even half-way through his filter at this point... For comparison, here's a game where he's mafia. + Show Spoiler +On February 23 2014 23:34 kushm4sta wrote:
and fuck no are you obv town. i have seen you push scum teammates like that d1. LIQUID CITY On February 24 2014 22:15 kushm4sta wrote:
koshi probalby scum also.
all game all he does is tunnel me (major lynchbait), easy to make a "case" against
now he is speechless
"Cool Foolishness, you know how to data mine, but what does it mean?" Let me tell you what it means. When Kush is town, he is very open about giving his reads in his posts. He directly tells the town "this person is town here's why, this person is mafia here's why". Of course these come in the form of one-liners so the reasons aren't substantial (which is okay). This shows a town mindset, he's trying to figure out the game and he's not afraid to speak his mind which are both strong town characteristics. However these sorts of posts are absent when he's mafia. Why? He doesn't feel the need to tell the town who is town and who is mafia because he already knows. That's what is happening this game and what happens in the games he's mafia. I checked two of his other games (one town, one mafia) and they both align in this matter. Austin mentioned that Kush is complaining about spaminess, but that's not okay. He's complaining about spaminess but not doing anything to help the town. That's what mafia do and they do so well: tell the town they are sucking, running in circles, or needlessly fighting with each other. It's an easy thing to say and makes it look like they are helping when they aren't. And that's how you catch someone doing that, when they say what the town's problem is but not doing anything to help. ##Vote: Kushm4sta
STEP 1
I think we can all agree that Kush is someone who always makes spammy, aggressive one-liners and in general just gives zero fucks. So there's not much to be garnered from that. Kush is a player who gives zero fucks. Not much to be garnered from that ----> it's not alignment-determinative that kush would give zero fucks.
STEP 2
Here's a bunch of meta on kush, as to why his posting/questions match his scum games, not his town games
STEP 3
Austin mentioned that Kush is complaining about spaminess, but that's not okay. He's complaining about spaminess but not doing anything to help the town. That's what mafia do and they do so well: tell the town they are sucking, running in circles, or needlessly fighting with each other. It's an easy thing to say and makes it look like they are helping when they aren't. And that's how you catch someone doing that, when they say what the town's problem is but not doing anything to help. Kush is complaining but not doing anything to help the town -----> kush is scummy
Step 1 and Step 3 cannot both be true, imo. If Kush is a player who gives zero fucks, then Kush not caring to help town is in line with him being KUSH. Foolishness cannot legitimately argue both "Kush doesn't care as either alignment, him not caring is not alignment indicative" AND "One reason Kush is mafia is because he doesn't care to help town"
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No, my main thing is that I don't think I have ever seen even TOWN kush be all super town-helpy and whatnot. Even if he's town and giving reads, doing something despite looking like he gives zero fucks, he's not...town leader. He's not leading lynches, he's not mending fences, he's not flashing the threadcop siren.
Foolishness goes and reads a bunch of Kush games, which, imo, say "Here is a dude who doesn't play threadcop and doesn't run around helping town in major major ways when he sees something wrong", and then in says that kush SHOULD be helping town out when he sees something wrong.
I don't think that fits in general, and I really don't like it all within one post.
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Moreover I don't actually know what Foolishness wants there. It's super easy to go "He's complaining and not doing anything to help, mafia."
That's just a generality. A good one, but a generality nonetheless.
I'm curious as to what someone, and specifically someKush, SHOULD be doing there to help. Like, if it's scummy to NOT do anything to help, there has to be a THING you could do to help. What does Foolishness think Kush SHOULD have done to help town about spam and whatnot? He's scummy for not doing X, when I'm not sure there IS an X to be done.
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And that's how you catch someone doing that, when they say what the town's problem is but not doing anything to help. The last paragraph indicates, to me, that the townie way to complain is to say "THIS IS A PROBLEM" and then to help solve that problem.
Giving reads/opinions does NOT help the spam/thread size problem.
Like...the whole complaint thing is not that you can complain about x and y so long as you do something helpful somewhere else. It's that you shouldn't complain about x without trying to fix x, shouldn't complain about y without trying to fix y.
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On May 25 2014 04:42 Xatalos wrote:
I think it's more about kush not *generally* helping rather than kush somehow magically stopping people from doing some specific thing. kush complains about something - while not doing anything helpful himself - hypocrisy? That's not hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another.
Complaining about spam while spamming.
Saying a lynch was shitty while voting for the guy who got lynched.
Preaching a religion while having a secret life on the side where you break bunch of tenets of that religion
Complaining about spam while not posting reads isn't hypocrisy.
I AM GOING TO PUT THIS ASIDE BUT I FEEL LIKE THIS SHOULD BE GETTING THE ELDERLY HETEROSEXUAL PERUVIAN BLOOD FLOWING BECAUSE AFTER INNUENDO AND PLAYING TOO MUCH MAFIA I THINK YOUR FAVORITE THING IN THE WORLD IS CALLING OUT FOOLISHNESS WHEN HE DOES SCUMMY STUFF.
Kita, Hapa, HF, Geript. When you guys return to thread could you read these last couple pages and tell me whether I'm off my rocker in:
(a) Finding Foolishness's case scummily constructed
(b) Finding Xatalos odd for the way he's defending Foolishness. Connecting them in my head pre-any-flips
mtam, thrawn, ritoky, would be interested in your thoughts as well.
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On May 25 2014 04:42 OnceKing wrote:
thrawn and kush read pretty much the same to me, they're both not really playing
i'm not really seeing why thrawn is giving off worse vibes than kush to you austin but i guess you got that interaction thing (or lack thereof) going on so yea
i'm probably pretty confirmation biased about kush being scum atm, i'm worried about what this might mean since what austin writes makes sense to me so i'm gonna take a break to step back and reevaluate Thrawn i dunno about right now. I can construct a townie narrative in my head as to why he's doing what he's doing, I can construct a scummy narrative in my head as well.
If he's town and he DID superlurk a different D1, and then got great reads that game, then a townthrawn is likely to go "holy shit that worked so well I'm going to do this forever now." Until it fails, I would EXPECT a townthrawn to try and emulate that behavior, because something clicked for him one game.
If he's mafia and he superlurked, he's got a great excuse to superlurk. If he's mafia and last time I caught him or called him out as mafia when we were chatting one on one, he's got reason to maybe avoid that as well.
There are bits and pieces that don't super lead to narrative, the "who is tambo" thing was a neat catch, and his "Okay guys I'm revving up now" ---> "lol nope couldn't get going" is pretty poopy if it doesn't stop.
Mainly though I was townie on kush early, and I'm scummy on Foolishness because of that case, which ... supercharges the read? While not being sure on thrawn.
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EPT
