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Aquanim
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You may do as you please. | ||
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On November 19 2013 06:35 cDgCorazon wrote: TBH that happens in like every game on this forum so I don't know what game you are referencing. C'mon, there are at least three other scenarios: - Town crashes and burns - Scum crashes and burns - Scum gets a lead early and then falls apart until the last two townies make a mistake at LYLO | ||
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On November 20 2013 12:06 Mocsta wrote: @Aquanim Why ask such a pointless, non-alignment indicative question. I understand some people view early trolling as part of the game, however, I would think you do not fall into this category. In fact, I would argue the above is completely out-of-character for a town Aquanim. I played a couple of IRL games of mafia a while back and, for lack of anything better to do, asked people that question. I noticed that townies tended to just say 'No' whereas mafia tended to dodge and be sarcastic. I don't know whether the same trend will apply here, but there's only one way to find out. Call it "Science". | ||
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On November 20 2013 12:14 thrawn2112 wrote: What are your conclusions about moc's alignment based on his answer? A teeny-tiny town-lean since he seems to be relaxed. | ||
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On November 20 2013 12:26 sciberbia wrote: That's interesting. I assumed you were coming to the opposite conclusion, since to me his response looks more "sarcastic and dodgy" than "just saying no". What about his response strikes you as relaxed? + Show Spoiler [sarcastic and dodgy] + On November 20 2013 12:06 Mocsta wrote: Scum: a layer of dirt or froth on the surface of a liquid. No, I am not. I am a mobster, which is typically "scum" in the world of forum-mafia However, in this game, roles are reversed and of the town I am. I think it's to be expected that in a forum game replies will be more verbose, and I'd expect some level of sarcasm from Mocsta in any case. Without any previous experience with this tactic in a forum game I don't have a baseline to compare to. As an actual answer to your question: While his answer does have a fair bit of fluff in it, I don't get the feeling that he is uncomfortable talking about his alignment[ which I think is the pertinent point. The "No, I am not" is quite direct. On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote: ... 2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote. this. If I see one more person go "X/Y/Z is scumteam GG NO RE #MANNERMULES"... (especially when X/Y/Z are each and every one town...) /rant ... On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game. The way I see it, sciberbia analysing the first page at least gives us something to talk about. Why don't you think what he's doing is productive? | ||
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On November 20 2013 12:55 Rean wrote: Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says. @Rean Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment? | ||
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I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. | ||
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On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote: Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please. I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.) As for scum, I'm not sure yet. Not enough information. I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next. I still want an answer to this from you: On November 20 2013 13:04 Aquanim wrote: @Rean Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment? | ||
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On November 20 2013 13:49 Rean wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=7#127 Ah yes, my bad. Do you think Corazon's argument that sciberbia is scum is persuasive? Why or why not? | ||
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If someone gave you a day-vigilante shot and said you had to shoot someone in this thread right now, who would it be and why? (This isn't quite the same question as "Who is your biggest scumread", by the way.) | ||
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If Corazon and sciberbia are both scum, what was their motive for going after one another as they have so early? It's focused a lot of attention on the two of them, and I can't imagine that being what scum wants. @Rean Why do you want to see me in particular pressured? | ||
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On November 20 2013 16:08 Rean wrote: ... To me you look like you're in the position that if I were scum I'd love: sit back, ask some questions, give some non-commital opinions from time to time and earn easy town credit while not under any real pressure. So one of your questions back at you: if you had a vig shot that only hit scum, who would you aim it at right now and why? Probably you. I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. I also don't see any particular purpose behind your posting so far - you've offered some observations when prompted but I don't see you trying to get more information and learn more about the motivations of other players, besides some half-assed and half-hearted pressuring of myself (which you tried to prompt someone else to do). In fact, the more I think about your filter the less I like it. ##Vote: Rean I'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him. | ||
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I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them. Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them. For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning. | ||
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On November 20 2013 17:07 thrawn2112 wrote: This post is obviously fake. This is the first time Aquanim commits to a scum read, and the way he does it does not look natural. He cites Corazon's case as being "sketchy at best" when earlier he gave Corazon a null read for it, because he could see how town Corazon could make the case. Seeing how a town C can make a case and calling him null does not match up with aquanim thinking the case was "sketchy at best." This means that this reason for thinking rean is scum is completely made up. After that point Aquanim talks about rean's play as a whole but I think his summary applies more to himself than it does to Rean. On top of that his allegations are false... Rean has made posts where he appears to be trying to discern alignments. Go find them, it's easy. It took me about 2 seconds after opening his filter. If it took me 2 seconds to reach the opposite conclusion Aquanim did.... something's not right. I always thought Corazon's case on sciberbia was bad. That's not inconsistent with my opinion that Corazon could be town having made that case. There were two possibilities: - Corazon was town and honestly mistaken - Corazon was making a case to generate discussion and wasn't particularly concerned with its quality. Sure, Rean asked me for a scum read. That's the easiest and least insightful question you can ask, scum can do that without any effort at all. I don't see any indications that Rean is putting actual effort into his scum hunting. In this post he is acknowledging that everything I said about him was correct. He's not scumhunting, etc. His excuse for this is that he's concerned that people might just come in and sheep the Corazon lynch? This is a very weak excuse for not being suspicious of anything and not trying to scumhunt. If he didn't want the thread to only talk about Corazon he could have just as easily found something else to talk about. His case and vote for Rean does not count as him trying to do this because Rean nearly forced him into it. He says he voted Rean to open a second wagon. So what does that mean? He wasn't actually that suspicious of Rean and he truly isn't suspicious of anything? I'm not buying it. Another thing I didn't like about this defense is that he was neither suspicious of my motives, nor did he get angry, frustrated, annoyed, etc at me for being a bad townie via my reading him incorrectly. I was very emphatic about my opinion that he is mafia and I expect him to reply with either of the two responses I just mentioned. Everything you said about my play was more or less accurate, why should I try and deny that? Corazon and Sciberia's little dust-up was pretty much the only thing that had happened so far in the game, so I asked some other random questions. Mocsta answered questions enthusiastically and more-or-less logically, which gives me a town read on him; Rean answered questions with mostly useless one-liners, which gives me a scum read on him. I consider my time well spent. I'm about as confident that Rean is scum as Corazon, perhaps a little less, which is compensated by the advantages of opening up a second wagon. I'm not suspicious of your motives because you're obvtown. I'm not annoyed at you because you're not ridiculously misrepresenting my play (which would be bad play), you're just wrong about my alignment. | ||
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On November 20 2013 17:17 Mocsta wrote: Regarding Corazon: I find it odd you think that is damning . Unless both are scum, I find that action to be indicative of town. You do not appear to think Sciberbia is scum; which perplexes me why you would think Corazon is thus, scum. Okay, let me rephrase that. I don't see any town-motivated purpose to Corazon's posting so far. If he thinks Sciberbia is scum, why isn't he voting for him? If he isn't confident Sciberbia is scum, why is he pushing the Sciberbia-scum argument so vehemently? I think Corazon's case is bad but obviously he doesn't. Corazon's vote doesn't have to be consistent with my opinion of his case, it has to be consistent with his opinion - and it's not. | ||
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On November 20 2013 17:30 Mocsta wrote: You have got to be joking me? As we are speaking generically: the only time scum have an easy time giving scum reads is if they are referring to their own team. Otherwise, they are *always* lying - due to calling town players that they *know* are town... scum. Mafia is a game of psychology and motive. The whole point is to catch mafia in a lie that a townie would not execute. Scum giving bullshit scum reads is meant to be one of those avenues. I dont have a clue how you get this so wrong? You've misunderstood me. It's an easy question for scum to ASK. That is, if Rean is scum, he can very easily just ask someone for their scumreads. | ||
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On November 20 2013 17:30 Mocsta wrote: Why feel the need to build a case and *vote* for Rean instead of produce a series of questioning aimed at discerning his alignment? If anything a vote/case on him could make him harder to read as it puts him on the alert?? That was indeed a concern of mine which is why I didn't go after him earlier, but as a townie I have to make a case and throw down a vote sooner or later to demonstrate that I'm doing my job. In fact, I rather think I held off for too long, given the current state of your read on me... | ||
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You could say that by pushing him further I might be able to demonstrate my towniness without playing my hand. The problem with that is that 1) I still wouldn't be publically comitting to anything, which leaves me still with the problem of demonstrating my towniness. 2) His answers to the questions I'd asked already were so lacking that I didn't think there was much to be gained by continuing with that approach. | ||
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On November 20 2013 17:51 thrawn2112 wrote: This is a compilation of things Aqua has said about Corazon. + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote: @Corazon I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote: I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.) On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote: I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next. On November 20 2013 16:42 Aquanim wrote: I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. ....... I'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him. On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote: I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning. On November 20 2013 17:21 Aquanim wrote: I always thought Corazon's case on sciberbia was bad. That's not inconsistent with my opinion that Corazon could be town having made that case. There were two possibilities: - Corazon was town and honestly mistaken - Corazon was making a case to generate discussion and wasn't particularly concerned with its quality. On November 20 2013 17:21 Aquanim wrote: I'm about as confident that Rean is scum as Corazon, perhaps a little less, which is compensated by the advantages of opening up a second wagon. On November 20 2013 17:25 Aquanim wrote:\ Okay, let me rephrase that. I don't see any town-motivated purpose to Corazon's posting so far. If he thinks Sciberbia is scum, why isn't he voting for him? If he isn't confident Sciberbia is scum, why is he pushing the Sciberbia-scum argument so vehemently? I think Corazon's case is bad but obviously he doesn't. Corazon's vote doesn't have to be consistent with my opinion of his case, it has to be consistent with his opinion - and it's not. It is a very convoluted thought process. It doesn't make sense and his position seems to very depending on what he needs to say in order to sufficiently answer a question as to avoid suspicion. He doesn't like C's case, he can see how a town C would make the case, he doesn't see anything town-motivated about Corazon's play, here are two possibilities of how a town Corazon could have made the case, and he's more confident that Corazon is scum than he is that Rean is scum. To add to all that, one of his main criticisms of Corazon is that Corazon isn't voting for his scumread. Neither is Aquanim by his own admission that he isn't as confident about Rean as he is about Corazon. My thought process is consistent. The case which Corazon made which I believe I was referring to at that time is: On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote: He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now. is pretty bad; Sciberbia's "twisting words" was easily explainable as Sciberbia simply not having entirely followed Corazon's post asking thrawn if he was a mason - Corazon's wording was quite convoluted. So. The case was bad, in that it completely failed to persuade me that sciberbia was scum. (I'm aware corazon has said other things about sciberbia; I didn't find them persuasive either). However, the fact that the case was bad and didn't persuade me IS NOT scum-indicative for Corazon in as of itself, for the reasons I stated earlier (namely, that Corazon could be mistaken or be deliberately pushing a bad case.) The fact that Corazon, despite apparently believing his case, is not committing to it by voting for sciberbia? THAT is scum-indicative. + Show Spoiler + Furthermore, earlier on when he was still developing and explaining his case against sciberbia, not voting at that point was not particularly scummy. However, when he'd concluded his argument and left without placing a vote even then? That was the point at which it became particularly scum-indicative. Which is why I'd made no mention of his failure to vote before that point, since I wanted to see if he would vote if left to himself. Some things about Corazon's play, in as of themselves, do not point towards him being scum. Some things do. I don't see a contradiction there. The difference between Corazon's vote and mine is that his vote is doing nothing at all, while mine is pressuring somebody who I also think is likely scum. There are other votes on Corazon pressuring him, and I consider that at this time my vote is better used to pressure Rean. | ||
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On November 20 2013 18:09 Mocsta wrote: Aquanim You did newbies with Corazon Regarding Him being so butthurt someone copied him Null, town or scum tell The only newbie I played with him he was rookie scum + Show Spoiler + yeah I know he fooled me for a while, but orangeremi was so damn scummy To answer your question: Null, maybe very very very slightly leaning town. My impression is that he gets stroppy more easily as a townie than as scum, but he could easily make an adjustment to his scumplay to change that. Also, if there was a failure to communicate effectively between him and scib I can see that irritating Corazon regardless of his alignment. | ||
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On November 20 2013 18:18 thrawn2112 wrote: You say Cor's case being bad is not scum-indicative.. even though you already used the phrase "sketchy at best" to describe it. Anyways, according to you, at least in this post, you are not holding his case against him. What you are holding against him is the fact that he's not voting for scib? That's the only reason? It must be, since you aren't going to hold his case against him. Why does that even make him scum in the first place? You say your vote on Rean is fine because it's a pressure vote, but then you're admitting that people don't always have to vote for their top scumreads. And this is why he's your top scumread? Because he hasn't typed in vote:xxxxx during the first few hours of the game? Bah! Bah, I say unto thee. On November 20 2013 15:42 cDgCorazon wrote: ... @sciberia Put your vote where your mouth is. Corazon's quite aware of the importance of "putting your vote where your mouth is". His failure to do so belies an inconsistent mindset typical of scum. Corazon's failure to vote is the most obvious expression of an overall pattern in his play - being that while he has been attacking sciberbia I don't think he's been doing it with any purpose in mind. If he was seriously trying to get sciberbia lynched (or even pretending to for the purposes of motivating the thread) he'd be voting for him. If he isn't in any sense trying to push a sciberbia lynch... then what the hell is he doing? The only explanation I can come up with is that he's scum making noise for the purposes of looking active, and maybe pushing suspicion onto a town player. If Corazon comes back from sleepy-times and starts playing dynamically, pushing lynches and seeking information, my read on him could well change. It's not beyond belief that his play so far is that of a townie who does not in fact have a plan other than to randomly talk about a scumread. I just don't think it's likely. And regarding this: You say Cor's case being bad is not scum-indicative.. even though you already used the phrase "sketchy at best" to describe it. Anyways, according to you, at least in this post, you are not holding his case against him. If Corazon's case had been good he'd likely be a townread for me, despite his failure to vote. The fact that the case is bad is therefore not irrelevant, but it's not enough for a scumread just based on that. | ||
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He'd better offer some more constructive opinions when he gets back, though. On November 20 2013 18:22 jampidampi wrote: @Sciberbia: My read on Corazon is not conclusive aka null. Slightly on the town side of null. + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote: I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad. Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem. Now to my goals/early game statements: 1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either. 2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote. 3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos. On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game. Don't like this post. Doesn't say anything with a substance. + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote: He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now. Don't understand what he is trying to say with this. If "us" refers to Scib and Cora, how does he come to the conclusion that Scib can "sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others" if Scib is tunneling Cora? On one hand Cora could be a townie caught in a emotional tunnel. This falls in line with his tone when directly responding to Scib. On the other hand he could be scum. Reserving judgement until he returns and properly answears Sciberbias case and this post. @Jampidampi: This reads to me like two quotes demonstrating why you don't like Corazon's play so far. How does that leave you on the town side of null? I think you need to flesh this out some more. | ||
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@LoneMeow: What is your read on Bereft? Both of you: do you have any questions for me? | ||
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On November 20 2013 22:39 Onegu wrote: Umm I think you are scum with rean. Catching scum would be my motive. Well, I guess that answers my question. Is your entire scum read on Mocsta due to that business with his post limit? | ||
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On November 20 2013 22:55 Mocsta wrote: aquanim thoughts on jampidampi Blew in, offered some observations, blew out without commenting on me. Depends a lot what he does when he comes back - if he elaborates well on his reads and begins to post purposefully then townread, otherwise not so much. A quick look at his game history shows he's commonly mislynched in the first day or two. His filter in I Swear it's Normal (mislynched day 1) looks superficially the same as what I've seen here so far (some random observations, no real pushing of any particular reads, not a great deal of overall purpose). Verdict: Null at present. I think there should be better lynches possible today in any case. | ||
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On November 20 2013 23:27 LoneMeow wrote: I don't really have a read on Bereft, very little content to go by. Asking questions is okay but scum can do that easily aswell, I need to see what he does with the answers. What do you think of sciberbia's case on cDgCorazon? For reference, sciberbia's case: + Show Spoiler + [QUOTE]On November 20 2013 15:53 sciberbia wrote: on Cora + Show Spoiler [quotes] + On November 20 2013 12:17 sciberbia wrote: I think Cora is most likely to be scum so far. His entrance to the thread is what I would describe as very 'safe'. It's trolly, ingratiating, and echoes what Mocsta already said. agree or disagree. On November 20 2013 12:06 Mocsta wrote: I understand some people view early trolling as part of the game, however, I would think you do not fall into this category. In fact, I would argue the above is completely out-of-character for a town Aquanim. On November 20 2013 12:24 Mocsta wrote: post 5 Scum like to interrupt town circles, so dial down the tone will ya. I think if there are 3 scum. So far it'saquanim, sciberbia and you. On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote: On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game. 1) The first thing I want to emphasize is a point brought up by Bereft. Cora singled me out for stating preliminary reads on the first page, but glossed over Mocsta doing the same thing. This inconsistency is suspicious because it suggests that his problem wasn't with the stating of reads (in which case he should have been equally bothered by Mocsta), but rather with me specifically stating suspicion on him. 2) Next, I find suspicious Cora's early criticisms of my play. At first, the criticisms had a tone of "sciberbia's play is bad" (but not scummy). + Show Spoiler [neutral criticisms] + On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote: On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game. On November 20 2013 12:44 cDgCorazon wrote: Thx for piggybacking on my post. I really appreciate it. On November 20 2013 12:57 cDgCorazon wrote: I think it is sciberia either not understanding that the first page of a game is usually just joking around or he is trying to rock the boat ridiculously early in the game. Seeing as sciberia is not new to this game, I think it's the latter. I find criticism of "bad play" in the first couple pages suspicious in general. Scum find it tempting to discredit townies and promote a negative town atmosphere. Townies on the other hand are more likely to be in a joyous mood after receiving their role PM, rather than antagonistic. 3) But specific to Cora, I'm troubled by the fact that when questioned about these posts by Bereft, Aquanim, and Thrawn, he retroactively analyzes my previous posts as scummy, whereas before his comments were noncommittal criticisms. If he really found my first few posts so scummy, the noncommittal criticisms are very unnatural. Originally he said this: + Show Spoiler [very alignment neutral] + On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote: On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game. But then later this when questioned by thrawn: + Show Spoiler [scummy] + On November 20 2013 13:43 cDgCorazon wrote: @Thrawn In my opinion, if he was trying to create a good town atmosphere in the start, he did a very poor job of doing so. That's why I was thinking (and still am) that sciberia is scum. So according to Cora, he was thinking that I was scum simultaneously as he was writing that you cannot find scum on the first page? That's a pretty blatant contradiction and it seems more likely one that scum would make than town. I'd appreciate feedback on this case. I think it's the strongest one in the thread right now so 1) I find unconvincing. I think it's believable that a town Corazon would only notice the read given on him, though a scum Corazon probably would too. Perhaps a teeny-tiny bit scum-leaning but meh. 2) I'm inclined to agree with. I don't get the impression Corazon is enjoying himself in this game. As for 3) I can understand that Corazon's read on sciberbia could change over time (even though the posts it's based on haven't changed). Particularly when called upon to explain oneself, one's opinion of a particular post can shift - I speak from my own past experience here. And hell, sometimes townies contradict themselves. Like point 1) I think this is plausible from both town and scum Corazon, though again maybe slightly more likely from scum. | ||
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Jampidampi + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 00:22 jampidampi wrote: Assuming you mean your case on Aquanim. I like it. I especially like how it applies to Aquas play even after the case. ##Vote: Aquanim Here's some more evidnce against Aquanim: This post is odd. It feels like Aqua really wanted to say the first paragraph and inserted the second one to make a post with more substance. If Aqua wanted to address my post with the second pararaph, why wait nearly two hours? Since the motive of this post clearly wasn't to adress my post, it must lie withing the first paragrapgh. The first paragrapgh is just throwing some dirt onto me without stating explicit suspection. The motive behind it is to make me look worse. That, ladies and gentleman, is a scum motive. @LoneMeow: Could be more specific about what makes you think Aqua is town? What do you think about the case on him? Basically, it took me two hours to determine that you weren't coming back and wouldn't elaborate on that point on your own. If you were going to explain yourself without my prompting I wanted to give you that opportunity. Obviously you didn't, and I can't help but notice you haven't answered my question even now. @Jampidampi I'd still like you to answer my question. Rean I already knew when I left to sleep that Rean would be voting for me when I came back. Based on his earlier suspicions of me it's the obvious next step to sheep a case someone has obligingly made for him, regardless of his alignment. + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 03:04 Rean wrote: How unexpected. You're put under pressure and you instantly accuse me to try to prove me wrong about you, but 2 posts later you're already looking for arguments to back out of it like + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote: Short answer to Thrawn's case: I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them. Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them. For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning. This, combined with what Thrawn already said (not gonna waste time parroting), really gives me a bad feeling about you. Enough for a ##Vote: Aquanim Some other things I really want to adress: Apparently I'm his second strongest scumread, yet all he's done is ask me a single question very early on in the thread. He has made practically no effort to actually do anything about his "second strongest scum-read". I don't like this at all. Please do explain Sciberbia. That he, compared to Mocsta going around calling people "confirmed town" and naming scumteams 5 posts in, seemed to be taking it easy and more the "is most likely to be scum" route. In hindsight held back is probably not the phrase I'm looking for but you know what I mean. Okay. 1) I'm not backing out of my read on Rean, I'm quite confident he is scum. At the time, I was quite confident on both him and Corazon being scum, and since there were already votes on Corazon I decided I'd vote for Rean to pressure him too. I don't see what problem anybody has with that. 2) "Haven't done anything about my second-strongest scumread"? I put a vote on Rean after satisfying myself he wasn't going to contribute anything meaningful without a nudge, and then he hadn't come back and replied by the time I went to sleep so there was nothing further to do. Corazon I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his. + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 01:16 cDgCorazon wrote: On Aqua (again): My problem with Aquanim is that he goes from a very neutral stance on me: To an all-out "he's scum!" stance without really having a transition between the two stances. It really troubles me that this was only after all of the cases on me came out. It just looks like Aqua just wants to follow thread sentiment for the big issues and branch out only for things related to his "reads". For example, his case on Rean screams to me that he wants to attack Rean for defending me. His case is weak and he blatantly lies about Rean's questioning of him and calls them not important when in fact he failed to read the reason they were asked in the first place: It's obvious that Aquanim did not read the reason that Rean threw out this post and simply calls Rean scummy for asking this question. This was a good post because Rean wanted to continue discussion and get a read on Aqua who he had felt was not contributing enough information and enough opinions to the conversation. The fact that Aqua calls this scummy is absurd and can only be attributed to his own scumminess. TL;DR Changes opinion on me to follow thread sentiment Attacks Rean (and says his question about town/scum reads accomplishes nothing when in fact it does) for defending me This guy is scum I'm confident enough in this case to throw a ##Vote: Aquanim out. 1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia) 2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town. 3) This guy isn't scum and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon". Rayn I don't think there was anything in particular new to address from rayn's vote. If anyone has anything further for me to adress I'll be around to answer. | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why are you voting for Rean when your post suggests you have a bigger scumread (or at least better reasons) on Corazon? Well, I was voting Rean to pressure him, since Corazon was already being pressured. At this point, though, the pressure from my vote appears pretty irrelevant. I'mma reread the last ten pages or so and decide who my greatest scumread is now, and then I'll vote for them. The time for me to mess around with pressuring and such appears to be well and truly past. | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is a big problem with that because you should be voting for your top scumread. What's your case on Rean again? Once again, my scumread on Rean was of almost equal strength to that which I had on Corazon. The reason I spent so much time talking about Corazon was because 1) I was being asked about my read on Corazon a lot 2) Rean wasn't in the thread so my vote on him had not yet elicited a response My case on Rean is essentially that: 1) The only thing he's done to try to draw out any information from the thread was to ask me for a scumread, which is a very easy thing for scum to think of and ask. Besides that, he's done nothing useful. 2) His answers to questions were short and didn't explain much, indicating that he didn't want to talk about his reads 3) He asked someone else to pressure me rather than just doing it himself, indicating he doesn't want to take responsibility for pushing people: + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 15:50 Rean wrote: Smartass comment that I couldn't resist: + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 15:28 Mocsta wrote:post 10 On November 20 2013 15:29 Mocsta wrote:post 12 consider getting one of these, you could use it :3 More seriously: Mocsta, good post by post analysis but I don't agree with it all. Your points on both Scib and Corazon make sense but I think you're falling into the "he must be scum so I'll try to interpret everything he says as scummy" trap a little with Cora. In particular: + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote: He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now. I also want to see Aquanim under a bit of pressure to see how he reacts but let's not do everything at once. And the lack of 5 people is rather disappointing still. 4) He has shown little to no original thought | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:20 raynpelikoneet wrote: Uhh.. I really don't like this. Are you saying your contributions at the start of the game were just "messing around" and "pressuring people"? That's a weak way to "flush all suspicion away", by just saying "guys hey, i was just messing around, now i start playing". Let me rephrase that. Yesterday the goal of my play was to get more information by pressuring and asking questions. Today I can't afford to have a goal other than working directly towards a lynch, since otherwise I will likely be lynched - and given that I know I'm town that would be a worst-case scenario. | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:29 raynpelikoneet wrote: Can you tell me,at the time of your vote, how you have contributed towards scumhunting more than Rean had? First, the vote itself. I voted for my scumread myself instead of asking someone else to pressure him who I could nonchalantly stand behind. I also consider that the questions I asked (intended to better understand the point of view of other players, and determine their depth of belief in their arguments) were more useful and more insightful than Rean's "Who's your top scumread?" excuse for a contribution. Finally, I was and am always willing to talk and expose my thought process, which helps you to determine my alignment - which is not what I see from Rean, compare this: + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 12:54 Aquanim wrote: I think it's to be expected that in a forum game replies will be more verbose, and I'd expect some level of sarcasm from Mocsta in any case. Without any previous experience with this tactic in a forum game I don't have a baseline to compare to. As an actual answer to your question: While his answer does have a fair bit of fluff in it, I don't get the feeling that he is uncomfortable talking about his alignment[ which I think is the pertinent point. The "No, I am not" is quite direct. this. If I see one more person go "X/Y/Z is scumteam GG NO RE #MANNERMULES"... (especially when X/Y/Z are each and every one town...) /rant The way I see it, sciberbia analysing the first page at least gives us something to talk about. Why don't you think what he's doing is productive? to this: + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 12:55 Rean wrote: Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says. | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:40 cDgCorazon wrote: To be honest Aqua you say that there was "new information" on me which prompted you to change your vote but I think that claim is all smoke and mirrors. You wanted town to waste time arguing about me and not have anyone notice your lack of in-depth analysis and definite reads on anyone in the game. When Rean asked for it, you started attacking him and never answered his request directly even though multiple people thought it was a fair request. Sure Rean has contradicted himself a few times and the accusations against him are true, I don't think they warrant a full-on case on him and I don't think that he should be lynched for it. You seem to be all about looking like you are scum hunting and jumping on the right wagons and the timing of your changes of reads seem to indicate you are just trying to play for survival, which is what scum like to do. I can't wait to see your observations of the last ten pages or so and to hear you try to change the lynch subject yet again. I'm not sure there's any point in talking to you since 1) you're likely scum and 2) you've already made up your mind apparently. Actually, you know what? Try justifying some of your wild claims first. I've explained that I was waiting to see if you were going to back up your sciberbia case with a vote, and when you didn't I became much more suspicious of you. In what way is that smoke and mirrors? What is your evidence that I wanted town to waste time arguing about you? My attacking Rean WAS an answer to his question. He wanted to know my scumread - and it was Rean himself. I also had a scumread on you but I thought it would be more useful and I'd learn more by pushing Rean at that time, as I've explained. Would you care to further explain why you think the argument why Rean is scum is weaker than the argument why I am? You've said that without actually justifying why you think it's so. Oh, and why shouldn't I try to change the lynch subject when most everyone is voting for me? | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:44 raynpelikoneet wrote: So you quote two posts, one of yours where you give three different answers in comparsion to Rean's one, and even the questions are different. If we compare something let's take the first quote of yours and the quote from Rean. Both answers are something that need to be explained. Yours, because people (and i agree with them) didn't understand how you can possibly draw a conclusion that Mocsta is town from that post as you didn't explain it. Rean's because instead of saying "null" he decided to characterize Mocsta's posting style. So i do not see how that's different at all. In next post Rean explains himself better, he says "null" in other words, again. The second quote of yours, i have absolutely no idea what saying "i agree with Corazon on this is supposed to accomplish". Was that post very townie? because you are not really saying anything. The last quote of yours, yes, that's a legit question. But then again you quoted three contributions of yourself and only one from Rean so you are not playing a fair game in my opinion, you are playing 3 vs 1. So go back and read Rean's filter and mine and determine for yourself which one of us is being more open about our thought process. | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:51 Rean wrote: 1. Pressuring people trying to lay low doesn't count as useful in your book? 2. You mean the ones that were on the first 2 pages? I already explained earlier, I don't write essays when sentences suffice. 3. I didnt ask anyone to do shit, I made clear that I wanted to put you under pressure. However I didn't wanna distract from the topic being discussed at the time (again, I've said this before) 4. See point 1. You seriously want me to think that you asking ONE boring, generic question is enough scumhunting from you? As far as I can tell, even since my vote you haven't been looking for more information, you're just sheeping onto my wagon. | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:58 cDgCorazon wrote: I already justified why I didn't vote for sci. My claim is that you jumped on my wagon to give the impression you are scum hunting when you aren't. Look at the timings of the votes and that is proof right there. Timings of what votes? I didn't vote for you at any point. Which votes, and what exactly do they prove? Because Rean has been open about his ideas and he is trying to solve the game. He's done more than simply piggyback on people and kick them while they are down. I just don't get a scummy vibe from Rean. LOLOLOLOL Have you even read Rean's filter? Piggybacking on my wagon is EXACTLY what Rean is currently doing. He didn't commit at all to pressuring me, just asked a generic question or two, and then sheeped Thrawn et al. when somebody else made a nice case for him. Look, I'm open to reason. Show me in what way Rean is trying to solve the game - besides sheeping someone else's case on me - and I'll reassess my read of him. | ||
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On November 21 2013 09:08 Rean wrote: Of course. I definitely didn't attempt to pressure 2 others (scib, already explained why 500 times + LoneMeow who is still lurking it up) while keeping my vote on you. You've done nothing to make me change my mind about you, and while you're still continuing making bullshit arguments to defend yourself I'm trying to find more scum. As far as I can tell, your entire 'pressure' of sciberbia is calling him out for calling you his second-strongest scumread and then not following that up. Which is a pretty piss-poor excuse for scumhunting on your part. This reads more to me like you being concerned that you're listed as a scumread. @Rean: Do you seriously think sciberbia is scum? Why or why not? And calling out LoneMeow for lurking? Please. Calling out lurkers is the easiest game there is. I don't see any actual effort from you here either. | ||
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On November 21 2013 08:57 raynpelikoneet wrote: So hey, you might want to explain this Aquanim. Here you seem to be agreeing with this: Then you proceed on voting for your non-top scumread. Why the contradiction? I'm seriously getting tired of answering this question over and over and over again with slightly different introductions. My vote on Corazon would not have pressured him significantly more than he was already, and thus would not have accomplished anything. My vote on Rean did pressure him more (or would have if the thread hadn't jumped on me immediately afterwards). | ||
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On November 21 2013 09:34 Mocsta wrote: Aquanim, I know you are getting abused left, right and center but I am willing to listen to you. Help me out please: A (red) - I assume the guy that isn't scum is Corazon; otherwise the only person this could be referring to contextually is Rean (which makes zero sense) B (blue) - If you can state openly Corazon *is* town, why do you proceed with point 4 where you dilute that read? Quite an odd sequence in my mind. C (green) - I can't follow the progression to this post: Yes there is some justification but this is OMGUS at its best. I also know from the standard of play that you judge others that you would not fall prey to this type of behavior (this I am certain of) henceforth, I can not follow the progression of A to B to C. The red: Corazon's third argument why I was scum is that "this guy [Aquanim] is scum". I was replying to that point in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. | ||
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On November 21 2013 09:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: I'm sorry i don't buy that. Corazon clearly states he will not vote for anyone but his top scumread at the time, you agree, and then you do not vote for your top scumread. I agreed with the frusturation he feels at watching people claim to have found the entire scumteam without flipping any of them. I didn't agree with "always vote your top scumread" - though it is typically what I'd choose to do at the end of the day (barring the possibility of a no-lynch), there are other profitable things which may be done with a vote before then. | ||
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On November 21 2013 10:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: So you agreed with that part. Why is your vote not on Mocsta who claimed he found the scumteam at the start ofthe game? You are talking out of your ass. I said I didn't like it, not that I thought it was scummy. Remember, I watched Titanic - I saw the number of townies in that game who were so, so certain they'd found the scumteam, and it hurt me inside. | ||
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On November 21 2013 10:05 Mocsta wrote: Aqua http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20266365 please - I know its small and annoying but I am slightly brain dead right now. I need the help. Yeah, I'm getting to it. I'm reassessing my reads on Corazon and Rean as well, so it's taking some time. | ||
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On November 21 2013 09:41 Mocsta wrote: OK, I am about to do another re-read now I got 3hrs of sleep Sorry to beat the drum that has been asked several times, I just want a concise summary of your stances so I can cross-reference when I read. (1) You have had a mild to now strong scum read on Corazon basically all game (developed to strong last say 8 hrs) (2) You have a mild to now strong scum read on rean basically all game (3) I dont think there are opinions on anything else? + please throw out a read on JJD/Onegu. To be honest I'm now more confident in Rean scum than Corazon. Before I went to sleep, pretty much the sum total of Corazon's play was some half-assed push on sciberbia without a vote, which I considered scummy. I'm having some trouble reconciling On November 21 2013 01:00 cDgCorazon wrote: I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game. with On November 20 2013 15:42 cDgCorazon wrote: ... @sciberia Put your vote where your mouth is. but that is the kind of contradiction which I could believe a townie would make. Since then, however, Corazon's posting has improved somewhat - he's talking about a larger variety of things in the thread and looks more like he's trying to be productive and useful. I'm still not convinced since a fair bit of his volume is devoted to defending his statements rather than doing anything proactive, but that's understandable given how much he's being asked to defend himself. I don't see anything which convinces me as to his alignment either way. His apparent conviction that I'm scum is a pretty safe view to hold given the current state of the thread. Again, could just be a townie who agrees with other townies, or he could be scum hiding on the obvious wagon. Hard to tell. Summary of my read on Corazon: I can believe everything Corazon's done so far from a scum Corazon or a town Corazon, though I feel the scum explanation is more likely. I'd prefer to wait for another day to lynch him and try to put together a more conclusive read on him. I'd certainly prefer to lynch him before most people in this game. + Show Spoiler + And before someone shouts "Aqua is jumping off Corazon since the Cora wagon died down", and I know you want to, consider this: both you and I are evaluating Corazon's alignment based on the same information. If both of us shift our opinion about Corazon, that's not me sheeping you - that's me chainging my opinion based on the same information as you. As for Rean, since I put my vote on him his contributions have been: 1) jumping on my wagon, which he was pretty much obliged to 2) making some shitty point against sciberbia and then defending it against all and sundry - the fact that this point is based around sciberbia having a scum read on Rean is a black mark in my opinion, attacking someone for giving them a scumread is a typical scum move 3) calling out LoneMeow lurking, which as I've said is really, really easy for scum to do Again, I have no conclusive evidence that Rean is scum, but I'm more confident about him than Corazon. His point against sciberbia really smells to me. They're both coming after me with a fair dose of confirmation-bias/deliberate-obtuseness, so there's that too. As regards the other two: JarJarDrinks - Original case on Mocsta was not really airtight but not having been there at the time I can understand his argument, even if I don't agree with it. - Overall he's putting his viewpoint into the thread and defending it effectively when queried. - He's seeking clarification from Corazon about Cora's original argument against sciberbia, which was indeed unclear. i.e. trying to understand what's going on in the game, when he could have just ignored it and carried on. Major town points. Conclusion: Likely town. Onegu - First post is clearly based on a quick scan of the thread rather than in-depth analysis. I don't know that I'd take it too seriously. - Suspicion of Mocsta's "thread captaining" is weird, it's not an argument I'd have made and I don't find it convincing. Plenty of townies make arguments I don't find convincing though, so meh. - Put a lot of work into replying to Mocsta's wallpost, but given how useless that was I don't give it town points. - Other than that, not a whole lot of effort. Conclusion: Definitely need to see more effort. If it's not forthcoming, I think he's a decent lynch today, though I'd still prefer Rean or maybe Cora. If he does offer some more reads, activity, etc. I think he could then at least wait for another day. At this point my lynch is looking quite likely. However, I'm still a townie and I can still be useful to you. If I go and do something on my own initiative at this point, I reckon whatever it is I'm going to get jumped on by eager scum and confirmation-biased townies. I can still do that if that's what you'd prefer. I think I can accomplish more if you ask me questions. That way, since you all have the initiative about what I talk about, I won't get jumped on for every post I make for "trying to redirect discussion" or some such rubbish. At this point, Mocsta and sciberbia, I think this is mostly on you - everyone else here either doesn't want to talk to me or is just lurking. What would you like to talk to me about? | ||
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On November 21 2013 10:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yes, he was agreeing with Corazon about always voting for his top scumread. Then he proceeds to vote for his non-top scumread. When i ask him about it he does not deny that, he says something about why his vote was good. I say i don't buy it, then he changes his story. Seems pretty clear to me. To repeat myself, I wasn't agreeing with Corazon about always voting for top scumread, I was agreeing with him about frusturation with confirmation-biased and "LOLOLOL A/B/C IS SCUM" townies. Which is pretty clear from what I said at the time. I'm replying to this to make it clear that I have in fact answered this point by rayn already. Unless someone else wants to discuss this, I have no further interest in going around in circles here. | ||
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On November 21 2013 10:24 sciberbia wrote: Of the players that started posting since I went to bed last night, I think Onegu looks by far the worst. His actions look inconsistent with a town mindset. Pay close attention to what his reads are, and how what he chooses to post about is incongruous with his stated reads. + Show Spoiler [first post] + On November 20 2013 20:28 Onegu wrote: Reans first post into the thread and it just fakes activity. He doesnt say what he agrees with and there are multiple things to agree with, does he agree with all or only some he, never actually says what points he agrees with. This is a very scummy first post. Also if mocsta didnt retract his post limit on himself I was going to call him scum, but he did and I am ok with it for now. I do want to point out he only takes it after cora points out his spam. But unlike cora I thought it was scummy, because it was a easy way to avoid conversation. The was one more post from mocsta I didnt like will find it in moment it was post 4or 5 where he gives 3 scum reads with no reason and then says half the thread hasnt posted so his reads can change. Coras case on Sciberia is terribad and scummy. Anyway rean is really scumm though. Sorry Im at the mall but when I am home I will catchup on both of my games and be up late playing. Ill be checking in periodicly while Im at the mall though. In Onegu's first post, he states pretty significant scumreads on rean and Cora, both of whom have had significant heat on them today. But he spends the majority of his actual words in his post rambling about Mocsta's post count restriction, which is so irrelevant, seeing as he dropped it. Rean and Cora are rather large issues in the thread, and given that Onegu has rather significant scumreads on them, you would expect the majority of his posts to be dedicated to them, but notice how he always seems to instead ramble on about Mocsta. + Show Spoiler [Onegu] + On November 20 2013 22:39 Onegu wrote: Umm I think you are scum with rean. Catching scum would be my motive. On November 20 2013 22:44 Onegu wrote: That and his early post about giving scum reads to like the only three people who posted. Plus his thread control doesnt seem natural, its like he saw he could do it as scum but wasnt planning on doing it but he did it anyway. Ill give more when Im back home. On November 21 2013 01:49 Onegu wrote: Ok I am home and put my son to sleep so Im getting out my notebook rereading everything and will be back with you shortly, also I basicly agree with everything JJD has said so far minus a small bit of the cora stuff, but the rean and mocsta stuff yeah. But he took back his mospcsta scum read :/. Also I didnt read anyone being a douche to you mocsta so just stop already. On November 21 2013 03:37 Onegu wrote: @MOCSTA 1 hes trying to be clever there is nothing to be overdone and there is no way a troll post like this can be scummy, fuck the police was already taken... 2 why cant sciberia find the repeat and calling of you obv town scummy, but your troll post null as it was the first post in the thread? You getting that it is scum-scum interaction I dont understand how you get that read from this post. 3 how is this agressive, you put a pregame post restriction, then start the game numbering your posts, seems like you are going to keep your post restriction up. Calling you out for it isnt agressive its correct when all your first few posts are trolling. 4 this is fine 5 he made a troll response how is that overcompensated? Doesnt make sense and him not thinking the same as you is a scum read? 6 the first part of this is correct that post was null, the second part you can only get so much info from the first page and alot of page one was trolling. Telling someone to keep looking isnt scummy, its not damage control. 7 How is this a scumslip, 2 different people thought you were masons, I know you kinda think they are both scum at this point, but when you drop lines about being connected with thrawn people might think you are masoned, no way this is a scumslip. 8 again not a scumslip 9 reans first post is uber scummy. It fakes agreeing with coras null post, and then says nothing and there is no way he thinks he is saying something meaningful. 10 iirc you had already said you werent masons so he says the only other option how is that townie? 12 meh ok 12b also fine 13 you do the samething later on when you talking about haveing such a good town atmospher so how can you give him scum points for this? 14 syas nothing why you post this, I dont know his meta so this poat means nothing... 15 still dont know how you are seeing scum scum intreactions here. Maybe you are just tunneled at this point. Also at this point you say you like aqua calling out rean. 16 again why post a completely null post? 17 This is fine, but you are like he agrees with me that mean hes awesome town 18 this has been talked about already, why are you so tunneled on scum-scum here doesnt make since. 19 the post is good that means the timeing is fine also, even if I am argueing with someone and I see something that needs questioned I will question it reguardless of what else is going on 20 admit to being tunneled 21 this is fine 22 tunneled 23 meh no point in continueing on with cora, him moveing on is fine and how he did it was fine. 24 really wishywashy post but also slightly dinstanceing himself from rean while giveing him a town read at the same time. I think this is really scummy from you mocsta. Your thoughts on rean is just really odd. You can tell a lot about a player's alignment by looking at what they choose to post about. It doesn't make a lot of sense for town!Onegu to be spending all his posts on Mocsta, even pulling up really old (now somewhat irrelevent) posts from Mocsta and breaking them down, when he has stated strong scumreads on Rean and Corazon, both of which he may actually be able to get lynched today. Is he even pushing a Mocsta lynch? No. He's not actively pushing for anything at all. He doesn't seem to think Mocsta is scum anymore than he thinks Rean and Cora are scum, so it looks to me like he just wanted to stay away from the Rean and Cora wagons for one reason or another, and in order to still look like he was doing something complained a lot about Mocsta. It doesn't add up. I think he could be the best lynch today. Need to reread Aquanim, Cora, and Rean. Not sure who I want to lynch most. In the meantime I'd appreciate some other thoughts on Onegu. Let me put it this way - I see nothing in Onegu's posts which is making me lean town on him. However, I'd like to play devil's advocate for a little while to further understand your point of view. With regards to Onegu's first post this reads like the kind of post where he's just scanned the thread and picked out interesting tidbits without any overall plan to the post. If he's at the mall he's probably posting from his phone, which I imagine makes constructing an organised, coherent post difficult. I think it's understandable that in this post he's spent more time on Mocsta. The fact that he hasn't elaborated on Corazon and Rean in the rest of his filter is a scummy kind of thing to do, I agree. However, a fair proportion of his interactions with the thread are due to Mocsta asking him questions and critiquing Onegu's read on him, which would naturally lead to Onegu spending most of his time talking about Mocsta. (That being said, he doesn't seem to have talked about anyone other than Mocsta really at all after that first post. IF that doesn't change abrubtly when he gets back Onegu starts to look really bad.) @Sciberbia: How plausible do you think these explanations for Onegu's behaviour are? My opinion is that they could explain Onegu's play if he's town, but they're sufficiently unlikely that overall my leaning on Onegu is scummy. | ||
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On November 21 2013 10:57 Mocsta wrote: ##Unvote After I get back from a meeting I will re-read the thread with an unbiased mind. One thing not in your favour is that I personally do not like the combo of Rean/Cora, maybe 1 of them but not both (and you keep focusing attention on this) I would expect if both are scum, and you/i/thrawn were town; they would have tried to combo up more. Instead it felt like two conversations in parallel (you + rean) (thrawn + myself + cora) I can't say I've looked at them as a pair, really. Pre-flip associations and all that. I'm not sure why you think the pattern of conversations we were having makes them not a pair though... I wouldn't have thought that scum would want to be in the same conversation about a matter of substance. Another thing not in your favour is acknowledgement of Onegu. (who I do think is scum) On one hand it should be clear that he is a viable push for your safety today; but you are not taking that opportunity (even though you admit he is "scummi-ish" Though you could contest that on the other hand you should be pushing your best scum read; considering the brevity of your situation (6/12 votes) this is silly - Onegu is apparently in top 3 and could secure your safety. At present I am explaining exactly what my point of view is: namely, that while Onegu is an acceptable lynch I consider Rean to be a more likely one to flip scum. Lying about my reads for the purposes of being able to jump onto the Onegu wagon right now would not reflect well on me. If I continue to see no interest in lynching Rean I fully intend to vote Onegu, or any other wagon, for the sake of self-preservation, as you say. For the moment, though, I'll keep my vote on the person I'd ideally prefer to lynch. (I am aware that given my current level of thread presence the amount of traction I can gather against Rean is small to none. Still, I have a responsibility to try.) | ||
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On November 21 2013 10:54 sciberbia wrote: ... The things that give me pause concernign Rean are his activity and overall abrasiveness. Specifically, I don't know why he'd be picking this fight with me if he were scum. Given that I called him scummy, it strategically doesn't make any sense for him to provoke me, and actively engage in discussion with me, just as I said I'm deciding between him and a few others as my top candidate. ... Do you think it would make more sense for Rean to avoid talking to you about your scumread? Confronting a read like that head-on and attacking is something I've seen scum do before. (For example, IIRC Spicydinosaur's scum play in NMM XLIII looked quite similar in that regard - when FirmTofu expressed a slight suspicion of him Spicydinosaur attacked him vehemently over it. In particular, Spicydinosaur didn't try to actually refute FT's points against him, but preferred to directly attack FT's play instead. This feels similar to Rean's play here.) | ||
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On November 21 2013 11:37 Rean wrote: I don't like this Onegu bandwagon. Feels to me like it's an attempt to drive away the lynch from Aquanim to an easy to lynch target. While his posting is certainly scummy it could just be legitimately bad play. However he's still a better bet than most. Aquanim is still going around repeating points that have already been answered and I feel the same. But I'm scared I might be tunneling too hard so I'll go reread his filter with an open mind. Sciberbia...while your reasoning is anything but original, it's understandable so not gonna push that read on me any further. I don't like though that you're yet again trying to go for someone already mentioned (Onegu). Why is that everyone here is so anxious about me mentioning lurkers though? It seems to me like with your attitudes you automatically assume anyone that mentions lurkers ever is scum, but that way people can get away with lurking hard and not contributing a god damn thing. I find it really fishy that both Aqua and Scib seem so paranoid of me for trying to call out lurkers >.> Calling out lurkers is not scummy. My point is that it's not towny either, and I see nothing towny in your filter. Calling out lurkers is a thing which might be construed as thoughtful content but in fact is not, which is why I mention it. | ||
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On November 21 2013 11:41 raynpelikoneet wrote: This is really really bad. "I have no idea what to do. So Mocsta and sciberbia tell me what to do so i can't possibly go wrong in what i say". He's not looking into where he wants to. He's asking where other people want him to look. That's fear gentleman. Mafia fears they say something wrong. Come off it Rayn. I explained in that very post why I'm doing this. I'm quite willing to make contributions to scumhunting - what I'm trying to do here is avoid the question of "Why are you choosing to talk about X - HE MUST BE DOING IT BECAUSE HE'S SCUM AGJPIAGGHNA H". I've had quite enough of that in the last 24 hours and I'm sick of it. On the other hand, if I answer questions from other people, then that's no longer an issue and you can evaluate the quality of my thoughts without worrying about why I chose to share those thoughts in particular. If you think Mocsta won't ask me questions where I can go wrong... well, you don't know Mocsta very well. Trap questions are one of his primary tools. I invite them. | ||
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On November 21 2013 11:37 Rean wrote: I don't like this Onegu bandwagon. Feels to me like it's an attempt to drive away the lynch from Aquanim to an easy to lynch target. While his posting is certainly scummy it could just be legitimately bad play. However he's still a better bet than most. ... Sciberbia...while your reasoning is anything but original, it's understandable so not gonna push that read on me any further. I don't like though that you're yet again trying to go for someone already mentioned (Onegu). ... @Rean How likely do you think Onegu is to be scum and why? If you think he's likely scum, why are you suspicious of Sciberbia making a case against him? Also, why do you think that Sciberbia's motives are doubtful for going after someone already mentioned? AFAIK the people who haven't been "mentioned" so far are either obvtown or so lurky there is no case to be made against them. | ||
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On November 21 2013 12:23 Rean wrote: Sigh....I'm not flipping stances. I have a single stance, and I explained it quite clearly: Onegu's posting is shit and not helping i any way, and it's scummy as fuck but it can also means he's just stupid. Considering multiple possibilities isnt wishy-washy, its called not drawing conclusions too soon. And the easy lynch target is because I felt and still feel like Aqua is scum and the Onegu thing was a convenient alternative for scum. Maybe I'm just overthinking it but it feels too convenient for my tastes. I don't see you "considering multiple possibilities" with regards to my alignment. I know that everything I've done this game has a town motivation, so I'm disturbed that you don't even think that's a possibility. If it wasn't for the timing of it all, I'd say very likely. His posts are bad and not contributing anything meaningful at all, throwing around scumreads while not doing anything at all with them. I'm suspicious of Sciberbia in case Scib is scum trying to get the heat off you and decided Onegu was an easy target with how he was posting and Mocsta already going after him. Do you have any reason to believe this explanation is more likely than Sciberbia believing I'm town and looking for an actual scum wagon to run? By your own admission Onegu is quite scummy. I think it's weird he's been doing the same thing over and over: joining in on starting bandwagons. And if people are so lurky you can't say anything about them they should be pressured, not ignored. I think you're misrepresenting Sciberbia's play here. Sure he is expressing suspicions on a player who has previously been suspected. What you've left out is: 1) Most people in the game have been suspected at some point. Once again, who could Sciberbia think is scum who doesn't fit this criteria? 2) It's hardly like Sciberbia was sheeping Mocsta - in fact, Mocsta was voting for me at the time, and Sciberbia did most of the legwork in actually writing up a case and putting down a vote. If you're town I honestly don't know how you believe this about Sciberbia's play. | ||
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On November 21 2013 12:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Rean: Corazon: Onegu: What i read is "i can lynch any of these guys". What's your point? I could lynch any of them - I think all three are reasonably likely to be scum, and I'm damn sure they're all more likely to flip scum than me. I think Rean's the most likely to flip scum which is why I'm voting for him, as I said in the posts you quoted. The other two are both reasonably likely but I think that IF Corazon is town he will be better able to persuade me of it in future days so Onegu is the better lynch of the two. | ||
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On November 21 2013 12:51 Mocsta wrote: Aquanim Something fresh, Bereft finally contributed. Thoughts? The stuff about Corazon is mostly old hat, been talked to death already. Bereft appears to place significantly more weight on it as a scum tell than I would personally. However, I think I can ascribe that to my previous experience with Corazon; I know that Corazon does have a tendency to grab on to little things like that "copying" post from Sciberbia, whereas Bereft probably doesn't have the history with Corazon to be as aware of that. tl;dr it's not particularly original but I can understand where bereft is coming from. The stuff about Rean more interesting. I'd forgotten that Rean had given a scum read on Corazon which was inconsistent with his posts before and afterward, and that is a damn fine point. Hell, even in that post itself he's backpedalling away from the Corazon read. It's hard to read because of the formatting but I think Bereft raises a good point here. I won't be confident in a read on Bereft until he's up to date with the thread and gives his reads in that light, since it's difficult to assess Bereft's state of mind when I don't know what he's aware of and what he's not. That being said I like what I've seen so far from him, he does seem to be applying critical thought to the game. | ||
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On November 21 2013 12:53 raynpelikoneet wrote: Aquanim do you have a feeling sciberbia is trying to convince you into lynching Onegu or what is your interpretation of what he is trying to do when he is talking with you? I think sciberbia is trying to convince me that Onegu is the most likely person to flip scum. | ||
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On November 21 2013 13:04 Rean wrote: 1. I did consider multiple possibilities but the more I thought about it the more you being scum made sense to me over you being town, and rereading only reconfirmed it for me. 2. Yes, my suspicions of you along with not really liking Sciberbia's play make me prefer lynching you over Onegu despite his scumminess. 3. It just feels off. Mocsta starts suspecting Onegu while still voting for you, and in comes Scib with a case to take the heat of you and switch it to Onegu. But maybe I'm trying too hard to make everything fit with my suspicions of you... So you "thought about it" and that convinced you I was scum? I'd like to hear some more specifics about that. What exactly in your rereading confirmed my alignment in your view? + Show Spoiler + It is my view that holding players accountable for their stated opinions and requiring evidence is an important part of maintaining a productive town atmosphere. | ||
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On November 21 2013 03:04 Rean wrote: How unexpected. You're put under pressure and you instantly accuse me to try to prove me wrong about you, but 2 posts later you're already looking for arguments to back out of it like + Show Spoiler + On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote: Short answer to Thrawn's case: I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them. Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them. For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning. This, combined with what Thrawn already said (not gonna waste time parroting), really gives me a bad feeling about you. Enough for a ##Vote: Aquanim His arguments here are: 1) OMGUS (whatever) 2) claiming I'm trying to back out of my scumread on him (patently untrue) 3) claiming that my reasons for thinking Corazon was scum were weak (arguable, but the real question here is "Did Aquanim in fact believe those reasons" to which the answer is yes.) Most of Thrawn's case which he cites is no longer relevant, I've been a great deal more proactive since then. I don't see how he can honestly believe this case. Whenever I've asked Rean about his read on me he's been dodging and not offering any more specifics, while remaining adamant in his read (though he claims to have "reassessed" I've seen no reason to believe that's true, he's just as irrationally obstinate as before). Whenever he's asked about his read on anyone else he's faffed about and avoided committing to anything. Admitting Onegu is scummy while not liking the wagon on him because "oh teh noes it's drawing away momentum from the Aqua wagon" is ridiculous. He's given no in-depth thoughts on Onegu or indeed on anybody else, apart from the trash he's come after me with. If I hadn't already voted for him I'd do it now. I'm quite confident Rean is scum. | ||
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On November 21 2013 15:27 Onegu wrote: Rayn my gut is getting a little tingle from you as I am reading... @Onegu Could you explain this further? Do you think he's scum, or are you just happy to see him? | ||
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I think you make a decent point about LoneMeow with the "I could agree", but I'm hesitant to assign a great deal of weight to a single choice of wording. I agree that the slot's certainly not towny-looking at this point and so Holyflare has some work to do. Come to think of it, I think LoneMeow (as scum) gave me a town read at a time when thread sentiment was against me in Newbie XLIII (link). The conditions were a little different in that the case against me in that game was utter trash and the players with the greatest thread presence were against my lynch, but IIRC I still had a fair few votes on me at the time. I dunno that the similarity means much, except that LM is comfortable rowing against a popular town lynch as scum. tl;dr I'm happy to wait and see what Holyflare makes of the slot. | ||
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On November 21 2013 23:02 jampidampi wrote: Aquanim First of all, you fail at reading: I consider your justification for your townish read on Corazon to be minimal bordering on insufficient considering you raised multiple points against him, but I'm willing to let that lie for the moment. Second, you didn't even address the point I hold against you in that post. You basicly admit that it has no other motive than making me look worse. I ignored your point because it was bullshit and not worth my time. Why should I have replied to you immediately? Aqua is also very conscious about his image: Considering that at one point I was one vote away from majority, are you suggesting that as a townie I shouldn't have been concerned about how I looked? because that's bollocks | ||
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On November 21 2013 23:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: The difference between Aquanim and Rean is both have made bad posts & contradicted themselves but unlike Aquanim, Rean admits he made a mistake or worded his thought poorly when it's pointed out. Aquanim makes up new reasons for his argument or licks strong players asses to make himself look better to them. And that is a fucking fact. You're entitled to your opinion of my play. I claim you're full of shit and that I don't "lick strong players asses" - I may agree with them sometimes, but only people like you never agree with strong players under any conditions. Regardless, if this is a comment on my style of play rather than you claiming anything about my alignment it can wait until postgame. | ||
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On November 21 2013 23:43 jampidampi wrote: I raised only one point against him, me not liking his opening post. How does "I don't understand" make you believe I hold it against him? I was looking for an explanation. How was it bullshit? I proved that your motives behind that post weren't coming from wanting to adress my post, because if you would have wanted to adress my post you could have done it then. You were clearly in the thread a good portion of time after my post, but didn't address it until way later. And, like I've already said, I didn't address you at all at the time because I wanted to see if you would elaboarate on your reads or indeed do anything else useful without being prompted. You may believe that that's an entirely unbelievable reason for me to leave you alone for some time - if you believe that, I have no answer other than "You're wrong". We're going in circles here and I don't see anything further to be gained by discussing this with you. You obviously believe that that one post and whatever other tired old arguments you've raised is sufficient justification for clinging to my wagon. Whether that means you're obstinate, tunneled or just scum is a question I intend to leave for another day. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: raynpelikoneet Far too much "REAN ISN'T SCUM AND YOU'LL ALL BE SORRY WHEN HE FLIPS" and far too little "XXX IS SCUM YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS FOR NOT VOTING FOR HIM". I'd expect the latter from a town Rayn based on my knowledge of him. | ||
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On November 22 2013 05:00 cDgCorazon wrote: This lynch is so stupid. I can't believe you guys let Mocsta take you by the balls and vote out Rayn just because they were having an ego fight. Lol no. I want to lynch Rayn because I don't believe he plays this way as town. Rayn tunnels, it's what he does. Do you seriously believe this sequence of events from a town Rayn: - Rayn wants to lynch Bereft/Onegu - A bunch of votes materialises in Rayn - Rayn's now willing to lynch Jampidampi My impresssion from my quick read of what's happened since I went to sleep is that this trend is continuing: Rayn doesn't give a damn who we lynch today as long as it's not Rean. | ||
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@Corazon Why are you voting for Rayn? Do you think he's scum? | ||
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On November 22 2013 07:46 raynpelikoneet wrote: + Show Spoiler + I laugh at all these people who claim they can read me. the only person who can actually read me is marvellosity (maybe Hapa). you are all so bad You can laugh after you flip. | ||
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On November 22 2013 07:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: I suggest you start contributing Aquanim. Because you can't be 100% sure i am scum. And if you don't, after i flip people see you took the easy way out. Tell me, why am i scum? On November 22 2013 07:13 Aquanim wrote: Lol no. I want to lynch Rayn because I don't believe he plays this way as town. Rayn tunnels, it's what he does. Do you seriously believe this sequence of events from a town Rayn: - Rayn wants to lynch Bereft/Onegu - A bunch of votes materialises in Rayn - Rayn's now willing to lynch Jampidampi My impresssion from my quick read of what's happened since I went to sleep is that this trend is continuing: Rayn doesn't give a damn who we lynch today as long as it's not Rean. Add to that now Mocsta and JarJarDrinks... and each of your cases is trashier and more desperate than the last. The fact of the matter is that I'm under no obligation to prove to you that you're scum. | ||
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On November 22 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why is everyone saying "rayn is scum because he does not give a fuck about who we lynch as long as that is not Rean"? How does that make me scum? Do you agree that you don't give a fuck about who we lynch as long as it's not Rean, or are you merely saying it for the sake of the argument? | ||
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On November 22 2013 08:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: I just made a case on JJD. wtf are you talking about? Do you even read the thread. Of course i fucking care about who we lynch. I just don't want to lynch town. Sure you made some shitty fabricated case, whatever. I could make cases all day on just about anyone if I tried, and if I wanted to. What I don't buy is that your suspicions of JJD appeared so quickly and erased your suspicions of Jampidampi/Onegu/me/whoever the hell else you've wanted to lynch apart from Mocsta and Bereft. The mere fact that you're shifting between lynches so quickly means you aren't serious about trying to get your scumread lynched. And like I said, town Rayn tunnels, he doesn't jump from lynch to lynch to lynch like this. As for those scumslips. The Mocsta one isn't a scumslip at all, asking "Have you been mislynched before?" doesn't mean in any way that he thinks you're a mislynch today. The Bereft one is better, but there's no way I'm lynching someone based on something which is almost certainly a typo whatever his alignment. | ||
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On November 22 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why is everyone saying "rayn is scum because he does not give a fuck about who we lynch as long as that is not Rean"? How does that make me scum? Oh, and in reference to this post. I would consider these typical behaviours: A townie looks at a point against them and says "That doesn't make me scum". A good townie looks at a point against them and says "That doesn't make me scum, and here's why I did it". A scumster looks at a point against them and asks "How does that prove I'm scum?" This post by Rayn is definitely in the third bucket. | ||
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On November 22 2013 08:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yeah except that i actually do give a fuck about who do we lynch. Your arguments are "rayn is scum because he defended Rean". You're dumb. Most likely not scum but really dumb. Yeah I'm not interested in your opinion on whether you care about who we lynch. You obviously don't even understand my argument if you think "rayn is scum because he defended Rean" is my point here. I have a low enough opinion of you to think you could conceivably believe that's my argument if you're town, but I find it far easier to believe you're deliberately obtuse scum. And now you want to lynch Thrawn? lol. just lol. | ||
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Re. Jampidampi: The point he raised against me about allegedly "throwing mud at him" or however he worded it strikes me as the kind of paranoid thing I'd expect more from a townie than from scum. Do you agree/disagree? Also, Jampidampi is lynchbait as a rule and I would have to be very, very sure about him before I'd be happy with lynching him. Re. Rayn: I agree with you that Rayn often tries to force his will upon the thread. However, in this case, if he was town I think he'd have had one wagon to run against Rean's wagon (and later his own) and stuck to that one wagon. What he's actually done feels more to me like he's searching for a wagon which someone will bite on, which would be scum-motivated (he doesn't care who the lynch is so long as it isn't him). So far he's gone through Mocsta, Bereft, Jampidampi, you, JJD and not stuck for very long on any of them. Do you agree/disagree? | ||
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On November 22 2013 09:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: Please could you read my case on JarJar, and my bullet points against him. Those are really good. Yeah, the bullet points look really good until you realise they're mostly unsubstantiated by the actual quotes. On November 22 2013 09:22 raynpelikoneet wrote: Aquanim, that's a really bad misrepresentation of my scumplay (i think you mean to say scum instead of town). No, just no. Uh... no? I assume you're talking about this: However, in this case, if he was town I think he'd have had one wagon to run against Rean's wagon (and later his own) and stuck to that one wagon. in which case I definitely meant town. Ridiculous tunnels into oblivion are your town meta, switching from one case to the next when nobody shows interest in the first is not. | ||
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Big doesn't mean good. I didn't see a single one of your points that was actually substantitated by the quotes you supplied. | ||
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On November 22 2013 09:52 sciberbia wrote: Also I think Cora is pretty scummy. Reading his filter the feeling I get is that he KNOWS rayn is not scum,but acts as though his "hand was forced" into voting him even though there's plenty of time into the lynch and there are better candidates. He just says things like "rayn's behavior is not acceptable". And the actual scummy points he does raise against rayn are total BS. This is trying to apply a scumtell to a situation where it doesn't apply at all. If you have 8 votes on you then maybe martyrying is a scumtell, but rayn hardly had any pressure on him when he started trampling through the thread and voting himself. Read rayn's filter from the last 12 hours and tell me he has been trying to "gain town cred". He has been doing the complete opposite by pissing everybody off. Cora is reallly reaching hard here to justify his vote. I'd be happy with a Cora lynch if anybody prefers him to Onegu. I was going to bring up Corazon post-flip but yes his approach to the Rayn wagon is pretty sketchy. I didn't like the way he dropped his vote on Rayn just to "resolve the discussion between Rayn and Mocsta" rather than saying that Rayn was actually scum. In reference to your defence of Rayn: Anyone that has played with rayn before should know he does batshit crazy stuff, tunnels people, and has ridiculous convinction in his reads. I agree with you that Rayn does batshit crazy stuff as town, and that what he's doing here is batshit crazy. HOWEVER, what he's doing here is explicitly NOT tunnelling people. His reads are changing from post to post, there's no consistency to them at all, let alone a single unified tunnel-visioned argument. And if his reads are changing from one post to the next, I can't see how you can claim he has ridiculous conviction in this game, even if he claims he does. Just because Rayn says he's confident doesn't mean he is. tl;dr @Sciberbia: I agree with your characterisation of Rayn's town meta but I don't think it applies to his play in this game. Do you disagree with the points I've raised above? | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:04 Aquanim wrote: And now he's just shitting up the thread with things irrelevant to the lynch to try to stop us reaching an actual majority. Which we still don't have on him, AFAIK. EBWOP: Unfortunately, I think that randomly shitting up the thread is something Rayn could, would and does do as town too. But it certainly isn't making me any less willing to kill him. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: sciberbia look closely into Aquanim. He's saying fucked up stuff. cross-investigate his posts and earlier obs QT's because i feel like he is talking out of his ass. I don't like it. Oh really, now you want to come for me? In what way am I "talking out of my ass". Don't farm this job out to Sciberbia, do it yourself. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:07 Holyflare wrote: Aquanim that is the most suspicious as fuck thing anyone has said in the past few pages. If I was scum I could just lynch the bandwagon and get a majority to get rid of a player, if he was town it doesn't look bad for me because I just came to the thread right? If he was scum it's the same thing, I just bussed a team mate and I don't look any worse or better. Now please inform me how that is shitting up the thread, I have an initial town read on rayn based on games that I have played with him and I want to stop people lynching someone who is a town read to me. I'm talking about rayn, not about you. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't need to. You are lynching me and i am gonna flip scum remember? So i am obviously lying. Now see, if you were town you'd actually go to some effort to try to convince people I was scum, for the future if nothing else. Even if you did get lynched today you'd be contributing to pushing what you think is a scum lynch on another day. But no, you just offer a "Rayn guarantee". Which given your history is worth absolutely nothing. This one's a wagon of justice, folks. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am giving him a job he should do when i flip town. If he does not do that (or if anyone else is not gonna do that) he is lazy or scum. Because you are full of shit with your meta. ^^ Given how full of shit you've demonstrated yourself to be already, nobody is going to pay a damn bit of attention to what you've said even if you flip town, unless you actually substantiate it first. You told sciberbia to go look at "an obs QT" and didn't even tell him where to look. I've posted in a lot of obs QTs. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:15 sciberbia wrote: @Aquanim, Bereft You could apply these descriptions of his play even more accurately to past games where he was town. Here are some quotes from rayn's filter on D1 of ego mini mafia where he is town. Notice that he somehow has ridiculous conviction in his reads, even though they are changing almost every half hour. And oftentimes he didn't even give a reason. + Show Spoiler [rayn] + On April 05 2013 09:22 raynpelikoneet wrote: Sciberbia wants to claim or fakeclaim a miller. ggyo. ::E Vote: Sciberbia On April 05 2013 09:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: kill WoS? better? On April 05 2013 09:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: oh fuck, just kill sciberbia. and then WoS. GG. On April 05 2013 09:55 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##Unvote: sciberbia ##Vote: WaveOfShadow On April 05 2013 10:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: iamperfection On April 05 2013 10:44 raynpelikoneet wrote: Can we kill WoS? On April 05 2013 10:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##Unvote: iamperfection ##Vote: Wave Of Shadow guaranteed scum D1. On April 05 2013 11:02 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##Unvote: Wave Of Shadow ##Vote: AxleGreaser Okay this is the best lynch. Look at his lat post rofl. On April 05 2013 11:47 raynpelikoneet wrote: sry. iwas kinda fucked up. ##Unvote: AxleGreaser ##Vote: Wave of Shadow On April 06 2013 10:56 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: sciberbia On April 06 2013 11:01 raynpelikoneet wrote: yeah sciberia is mafia, can we just kill him? On April 07 2013 03:33 raynpelikoneet wrote: I'm starting to think WoS is actually town.. Cna we lynch sci? On April 07 2013 08:40 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay, i want to kill Ace... Here's a link to the full filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&user=raynpelikoneet ...ok, fair enough. I still think that under the conditions he's in here switching between wagons as soon as nobody shows interest in the previous one is objectively scummy. I think Corazon has a decent chance of flipping scum, but I also think that if Corazon's town he will be better able to prove it to us than Rayn and Corazon will generally be more useful. On the other hand If Rayn's town and gets lynched, well... nothing of much value was lost. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: Except that i am pretty good in finding scum. ROFL | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: Aquanim is annoying. He wants me to talk about past games and how i did succeed in them as town. Not a townie midset, purposely trying to make me mad. If Koshi was in this game that dude would get lynched right away! What, because Koshi is your pet dog who plays "Fetch" and "Gnaw" at your command? Stop insinuating shit and come at me or lie down and die. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: Just kill Mocsta, Bereft and JJD. If the game goes on kill Aquanim (i am gonna write bad words like i already did - but after game - i was able to hold myself back as i don't wanna get banned). ggnore, ezpz. Pretty sure he's 0/4 or at best 1/4 with these reads. His suspicions of Mocsta are based on some bogus scumslip and a fair dose of shitty OMGUS. Rayn's case on JJD looks good until you realise none of his points are actually in any way shown by what he's quoted. Bereft's conceivably scum but I doubt it - this post is towny as f***: On November 22 2013 07:56 Bereft wrote: I will be shocked -- SHOCKED -- if rayn flips town. but not sorry. Rean, you caught up on the thread yet? HF, how far along are you? And I'm not scum. All of these flaws with his reads are things I've adressed repeatedly already but Rayn doesn't even care. All of his reads are awful, and awful in ways I think even rayn should be able to understand. | ||
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I'd still prefer Rayn though. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:44 raynpelikoneet wrote: can someone tell Aquanim to not post if he does not have anything constructive to say because i am feeling like i am talking to alakaslam and that's not good.. and will not last. If you want me to have a ban then it's okay though.. I'm driving for your lynch. I can understand why you wouldn't feel that's constructive, but then I'm again not really concerned about your opinion. | ||
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Explain to me why you think Rayn is town and I'll consider it. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:47 Mocsta wrote: I thought you had bigger balls. I don't want to play with Rayn anymore full stop. We had a good town environment until page 25ish and I was relaly enjoying this game. He has single handedly shit the thread and this game has completely denigrated into somethign I have no interest playing anymore. My vote is staying on Rayn. /post-game If rayn is town this game, you will be added to my personal ban list. Im pretty fucking disgusted right now. this. I ain't gonna lie, as well as thinking he's scum I just want Rayn gone. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: And lol Mocsta, you really will look bad after my lynch Rayn you keep saying shit like this. Explain to me how this is useful in any way. | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: explain why are you talking bullshit? Okay so you're not even trying to be useful any more. LYNCH THIS WITH FIRE | ||
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On November 22 2013 10:56 raynpelikoneet wrote: From ## game. + Show Spoiler + From now on i will stop posting in my town games. Guess it's a towntell if you do not post at fucking all. When you do post you get called scum for because you were not here for 20minutes when other people decided to post. That really fucking weak and lame because i never do lie about not being able to post. So gotta downgrade my townplay even more. I could have solved Thug life probably much earlier but i downgraded my townplay there. I hate losing, especially as mafia because it's not the point of "are you right or not". I gotta say Vayne, i feel you, especially about the fact you say you don't care about if your target gets lynched or not, but the fact if you are right or wrong on your reads. I like that approach and from now on expect that from me. Just because this is bullshit. My meta gift to you. ^_^ all accurate, except for the first paragraph, obviously. ^^ Again I have to ask "what is the point of this post"? | ||
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If Rayn's scum, once Thrawn starts to waver I can well imagine him being tempted to just play dead, do nothing more useful, troll around and hope he gets away with it on the grounds that trolling around is consistent with his town meta. And that's what I'm seeing here. + Show Spoiler + An aside - if trolling around when you're the main lynch wagon is consistent with your town meta you're playing Mafia horribly, horribly wrong. But anyway. | ||
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If someone else wants to talk to him now feel free, I think I've antagonised him as much as I needed to. | ||
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I'm willing to lynch him for that until he realises that's not acceptable. | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:28 cDgCorazon wrote: You know what, I don't want any part of this. Rayn and Moc are just battling with their egos and this whole thing is silly. I would say that I'd rather have Rayn be lynched so we can move on to more things but I also think it is really stupid that we are voting Rayn out when it's pretty obvious to me now that he is town. ##unvote ##Vote: No-lynch This is stupid and I can't believe that it has come to this. Rayn is a bad lynch and Onegu/Aqua are way better lynches today. If we no-lynch we'll just be doing the same shit for the next 72 hours. If you really feel this way, just vote Rayn and we can get this shit over with. | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am not pushing any objective here am i? I am saying 3/4 of my reads are scum. So lynch me if you want ot. Lynch me if you think i am scum. Lynch me if i am not able to help the town. I really do not care. I am telling you who is scum, when i flip town maybe you'll see what i am after. Don't you have five reads now? Mocsta, JJB, myself, Bereft and now Rean for absolutely no good reason after you've spent the last 12 hours insisting he was town? | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:34 Bereft wrote: Aqua, I agree. hands up - who is willing to lynch Cora? I am. Not yet. I still want to lynch Rayn. | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:35 cDgCorazon wrote: Cause you idiots are tunneled in on Rayn. That's not an answer. You know how bloody awful it is to no-lynch day 1, we learn nothing from it. If you don't like the Rayn lynch, PROPOSE ANOTHER ONE. | ||
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Rayn's still scum. | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:43 raynpelikoneet wrote: also look at these kinda posts. these are really bad. because the person in question has failed to deliver any original argument after the first 10h of the game. Okay now you're just straight-up lying. | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: he's just hrowing shit at me for no reason. there is no reason to do so if he is town. when i flip he'll act "angry" and "FUCK YOURAYN WHY DID YOU DO SO". t_T you're a sad person aquanim I'm pointing out that you're continuing to troll us instead of playing towny in any way and in so doing continuing to push your lynch. Which is my reason as a townie for continuing to illustrate your failure to contribute. | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: I made very good cases on people who are scum. We can talk about this post-game but what you did was "PLZ PPL TELL ME WHAT TO TALK ABOUT OMGOMG I AM SO THREATENED". so yeah. Go to hell. In about... 12 minutes. | ||
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On November 22 2013 11:53 thrawn2112 wrote: How is rean not scum? Someone explain this to me! Oh he could well be. Corazon/Rean/Rayn could all very well be scum. So could Onegu for that matter. But I think Rayn has to go. Rean isn't making this game painful to play. | ||
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On November 22 2013 12:10 cDgCorazon wrote: Doesn't Onegu's vote look really scummy with Rayn's flip? I'm not sure why Onegu's vote looks scummier due to Rayn's flip. Unless you're saying he didn't want to take responsibility for the Rayn lynch... which would apply to you in spades too. Could you clarify? | ||
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On November 22 2013 12:20 cDgCorazon wrote: Onegu dropped a vote away from Rayn and then peaced out. What would scum do if they knew town Rayn was probably going to be lynched 12 hours in advance? They wouldn't all pack on the Rayn wagon. That would be too obvious for a scum team. Wouldn't it make sense for Onegu to put a vote on Moc in the middle of the Rayn tunnel to look like he was making an effort to scum-hunt and then be able to distance himself from a Rayn lynch? I was transparent with my stance on Rayn and my decision to no-lynch. Onegu was very shady about it and I think it's because he is hiding the fact that he is scum. That's a fair point. Do you think the same applies to jampidampi and Rean, who both left their votes on me without pushing my lynch at all seriously? Personally I doubt they're all scum but I think there's at least one and possibly two scum in {Jampidampi, Rean, Onegu}. | ||
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On November 22 2013 13:00 Holyflare wrote: ... Aqua, ignores everything rayn says, policy lynches him ... @Holyflare From the moment he came into the thread and told us not to lynch Rean, what do you think Rayn said that was worth taking seriously? This is a serious question, by the way. | ||
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On November 22 2013 14:02 cDgCorazon wrote: Does it not concern you that he could be buddying you too hard? You've done that tactic to me before (was it Bluelightz? or 37?) and it bit me in the ass. I would like thrawn to have a lot more thread presence going forward. I hope you can agree with that Moc. I'm inclined to think that after pushing my wagon hard at the start of the day and being a pretty strong townread for most people it's entirely understandable that a town Thrawn would decide to step back a little. If one apes the spotlight for the entire day then that doesn't give you as much opportunity to learn about other people. I agree that if he does not maintain a high thread presence going forward I will be reassessing Thrawn. | ||
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On November 22 2013 22:32 Onegu wrote: Also rayns martyr is the correct play in majority lynch, he knows his flip is valuable for info. His flip proved alot of stuff. Like most likely all scum was on his wagon. He gives credibility to his reads. @Onegu I have two questions. 1) Why do you think all of the scum would be on Rayn's wagon? What motive does the scumteam have for pushing Rayn's lynch so hard? 2) Could you comment on what about Rayn's reads you find persuasive? | ||
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On November 22 2013 23:17 JarJarDrinks wrote: Yeah, I'm curious as to what Cora is getting @ here too. Now I wouldn't normally pre-empt an answer like this, but I'm pretty sure I already asked this question and Corazon already answered... in the posts directly after the quoted one. On November 22 2013 12:20 cDgCorazon wrote: Onegu dropped a vote away from Rayn and then peaced out. What would scum do if they knew town Rayn was probably going to be lynched 12 hours in advance? They wouldn't all pack on the Rayn wagon. That would be too obvious for a scum team. Wouldn't it make sense for Onegu to put a vote on Moc in the middle of the Rayn tunnel to look like he was making an effort to scum-hunt and then be able to distance himself from a Rayn lynch? I was transparent with my stance on Rayn and my decision to no-lynch. Onegu was very shady about it and I think it's because he is hiding the fact that he is scum. @Onegu, JJD: Do you find Corazon's explanation here insufficient? | ||
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On November 23 2013 10:43 cDgCorazon wrote: No thread presence. He played a very little part in D1 and that doesn't reflect very well on my read on him. I think if there was a scum OFF the Rayn lynch, it is very likely to be him. I'd be down lynching him tomorrow if it comes to that. You mean a scum off the Rayn lynch besides Onegu? | ||
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I will have a look at these cases he asked us to read though. Bereft + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 13:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Bereft You stated Onegu is your town read. You filter four guys. Three which are your scumreads, and Onegu, your town read. That makes no sense given you have null-reads you should be filtering over your townreads in case you are trying to find scum. You are just following thread sentiment and it makes no sense. In fact you never even filter Aqua and Onegu after promising to do so. On November 21 2013 13:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: I want to lynch Bereft for the way he prioritizes things. That's fucking scummy. Notice Aqua was one of his three scumreads to filter. Now he has filtered Rean/Cora, has his vote on Rean, and defended Onegu's posts. He hasn't even read all his scumread's filters yet there is already a vote. A big no. Now sleep. Bereft filtered Onegu because he was asked to by Corazon: On November 21 2013 13:11 cDgCorazon wrote: Bereft, I would like to know why you don't think we should lynch Onegu. I was really puzzled when you threw that read out (as were others) and I just want to know why you see Onegu in a good light. When you said you thought he was town I got this feeling that we weren't reading the same game. In this same post Rayn claims that Bereft "never even filtered Onegu after promising to do so"... but Bereft did. Rayn must just have been not even thinking about his argument or something. It wasn't Bereft's immediately next post after promising to do so, but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation of Bereft. Bereft doesn't make some wallpost on me, that's true, but if Bereft's read of me has changed I can see why a town Bereft wouldn't bother to comment on my filter and conclude "I dunno, still need to think about it guys". Making a post like that would be a waste of time and I almost think better of Bereft for not doing it. There's also the 'scumslip' where Bereft said 'mislynch' but that's a typo regardless of Bereft's alignment. Conclusion: Rayn's case holds no merit. Bereft had a perfectly good reason to post about Onegu and a perfectly good reason not to post about me. Ideally of course Bereft would have posted aboue everyone, but given his time restrictions that's not reasonable to expect all the time. Mocsta + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 04:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: Quick version: - far too conservative and "nice", even towards me, throughout the game - puts on tunnel glasses when i stir up the thread (more on this later) - will not consider any motives but scum-motives to my actions which lasted ~15min (even after i explain myself) - should know better that it does not make me scum - scumslips (besides Bereft - who is also scum) - after that, when i call him out for it, look at his posts. rofl. suddenly he is "willing to reconsider". suddenly Rean is town while earlier asked everyone to consolidate on him. does a meta-search on Rean at that point, why no before? rofl. that's fucking ridiculous. - suddenly has "calmed down and is willing to discuss things with me" when it looks like i am ACTUALLY lynching myself. Do you know how fucking terrible Mocsta will look when i get lynched? I do. Because i am making a full case still. I am also making a full case on Bereft and JarJar. thrawn could be scum too (in case JarJar is just really dumb). He's just pushing people into thinking "don't talk to rayn, just vote for him" and at the same time saying things he knows i can't stand. But it's okay, i will not take the bait. The case will come. Also on Mocsta, Onegu's gutreads are actually really really good. I trust him on this, also because i am really sure he is town because he can't make a coherent case but still has strong reads. That's town Onegu. Well for starters the "full case" never evenutated. Moving on. 1) Rayn claims Mocsta is being "conservative and nice", even towards Rayn himself. I fail to see any particular scum motivation behind being nice as such. Mocsta has been effectively pushing his reads without being obnoxious and that's all I require. 2) Mocsta apparently puts on tunnel glasses when Rayn shits up the thread. I consider this entirely understandable from a town Mocsta - in fact I did it to some extent myself. The "more later" also never eventuated I don't believe. 3) and 6) So Mocsta "doesn't consider any motives besides scum-motives" and yet is "willing to reconsider". Yeah... no. 4) can't see any reason why mocsta "should know better" 5) I've already talked about this alleged "scumslip" I believe. Rayn's claim that it was a scumslip was utter rubbish. 7) I don't see why calming down and being willing to discuss things is scum-motivated. Conclusion: Rayn threw down a bunch of observations about Mocsta's play and claimed they made him scum. I don't see how any of this makes Mocsta scum myself, I thought Mocsta's approach to the Rayn wagon was entirely reasonable from town. Also, the scumslip doesn't exist. JarJarDrinks + Show Spoiler +
1) is demonstrably incorrect. Just read JJD's filter. 2) There's an element of truth to this in that JJD is not constantly putting his point of view forward. However, once he'd said everything there was to say about Rean that hadn't been said already, he moved to asking people why they weren't voting Rean and thus pressuring them to do so. Entirely acceptable town play. 3) also demonstrably incorrect 4) So JJD is pursuing Corazon and Rean at the same time. Just because he talks to Corazon more doesn't mean Corazon has to be his bigger scumread - Corazon's been in the thread more than Rean, so this is entirely what I would expect. 5) I don't even know what this means quite, but I think it's entirely believable that JJD posted in the way he did as town 6) "He has a vote on a scumread and when he gets a bigger scumread he moves his vote" is not equal to "not scumhunting". I see JJD asking questions about things he doesn't understand in others' play and pressuring his reads, which seems ok to me. Conclusion: This case isn't as demonstrably ridiculous but I'm still not convinced by it in any way. I wouldn't say that none of these three could possibly be scum but these cases don't prove squat. Moving on to some vote count analysis. + Show Spoiler + Some representative votecounts: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 11:43 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count cDgCorazon (1): Aquanim (5): thrawn2112. Rean (2): Aquanim, JarJarDrinks, Onegu (1): sciberbia Not Voting:: LoneMeow/Holyflare, Mocsta, Bereft The shift onto Rean began: + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 15:20 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count Aquanim (4): thrawn2112. Rean (4): Aquanim, JarJarDrinks, Onegu (1): sciberbia Bereft (1): raynpelikoneet Not Voting: LoneMeow/Holyflare, Onegu After this thrawn moved onto Rean, and then we dogpiled Rayn. + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 00:37 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count Aquanim (3): Onegu (1): sciberbia raynpelikoneet (5): thrawn2112, Mocsta. Aquanim, JarJarDrinks, Bereft jampidampi (1): raynpelikoneet The final votecount was: + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 11:57 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count Aquanim (2): Rean (1): raynpelikoneet (7): Mocsta (1): Onegu, No-Lynch (1): cDgCorazon I doubt all the scum are either on or off the Rayn wagon at the end on general principles - It's a town lynch so they don't need to commit exceptionally hard either way. If I was scum, Rayn would hardly be a priority target for me, I'd want him alive as long as possible to shit up the thread. If I had to guess, I'd say two scum off the wagon - {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon, Onegu} and one on it {everyone else}. + Show Spoiler + I've considered Holyflare and Sciberbia to be on the wagon for the purposes of this statement, because they were at least willing to consolidate onto it. I think it's important to remember that distinction, though. If there's scum on the Rayn wagon my first guess (based on lynch-related material) would be Holyflare simply due to his repeated insistence that the lynch wasn't his fault. Bereft and JJD are outside chances. I doubt Thrawn, Mocsta and Sciberbia are scum. The thought process of all five of these latter made sense (Sciberbia's position on Rayn was understandable and well reasoned though I disagreed at the time, the others policy lynched or had reasons to think Rayn was scum in various degrees). Holy didn't justify his position nearly as well, basically just called us all stupid. Similarly, I would guess that there was at least one scum on my wagon earlier in the day, though probably not all of them either. Since I'm pretty confident in Thrawn and Mocsta being town, that leaves {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon}. Hey, they're pretty much the same names - fancy that. It's harder to draw any conclusions about the Rean wagon since I don't know his alignment. However, I do like the names on his wagon (myself, Mocsta, JJD, Bereft, Rayn at some point, and eventually Thrawn). The hypothesis that Rean is scum and that thus zero or at most one scum didn't vote for him while there was stil a wagon on myself on offer is not contradicted by the votes on him, though this obviously isn't conclusive proof he's scum . If Rean flips town in the future I'll have to reassess my reads on the people in this list, though I think it's not impossible that all the votes on him could still be by townies. For instance, if scum were already committed to voting for me or for wherever else they've parked their vote (or in the case of Holyflare not even in the game yet). Or if they were mostly AFK during that phase of the game. Conclusion: If there's no scum in {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon, Onegu} I'll be very suprised (and I'd guess there's two), but the entire scumteam being in that list seems too damn easy as well. Hardly my most mindblowing discovery ever, but as more flips happen the day 1 picture should become clearer. These five players are the ones I'm not against lynching at this point in time. I'm pretty sure that at least two of the scum are in this group. I'd need a very good argument to lynch outside of this pool today. Jampidampi + Show Spoiler + His contributions have been decidedly lacklustre so far. He's been harping on about that single post of mine as pretty much his entire scumhunting content. The question I'm having difficulty answering is "Is this all Jampidampi is capable of as town?". If this was, say, Mocsta I'd lynch them out of hand, but this is kind of believable from a town Jampidampi. It's difficult for me to determine from my perspective whether he could reasonably believe I haven't answered his point about that post already. I'd appreciate anyone with an outside view weighing in with their perspective on this. For the record his argument is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=34#676 to which my reply is: How is observing that a player hasn't answered a question scummy? You can claim that my motivation was to "throw dirt on" Jampidampi, but that's only a single possible explanation for that post. Another one (and the correct one) is that I thought Jampidampi needed more incentive to answer the question and to offer more constructive opinions. I think I mentioned at some point during day 1 that this kind of paranoia about people "throwing dirt on me, oh teh noes" is somewhat more characteristic of town than scum. That does not, however, mean that I think a scum player *couldn't* pretend to be paranoid in that way. The fact of the matter is that Jampidampi's kept repeating that single, crappy point about me while largely ignoring the rest of my filter and saying as little as possible about anything else in the thread. If he's town I hope he picks up his play, otherwise we may just have to lynch him and pray he's not playing this badly as a townie. Conclusion: I'm not immediately eager to lynch Jampidampi (again the lynchbait argument), but if he continues to pass up on opportunities to contribute then my mind will change. There's only so much failure to contribute that I will tolerate. Onegu + Show Spoiler + Reading Onegu is just damn hard because I don't think he's had enough time to read and evaluate the thread entirely and, worse, I don't know what parts he's read and which he hasn't. The go he had at Mocsta at the start wouldn't be believable if I thought Onegu had the time to make an indepth analysis of the thread, but I don't think that so :/ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=38#756 This post is kind of good in that Onegu's shown what he thinks of everyone, though I am finding it difficult to read since it's more a list of disjointed thoughts than any illustration of overall trends (which I would put more weight onto). On November 22 2013 22:49 Onegu wrote: Ill be back in a bit to make my case on mocsta and bereft. Third scum I am still trying to figure out. Have another game to catch up on but Ill be up late tonight to play so any questions ask me and I will answer. I think he's completely wrong on Mocsta and Bereft though. I'll wait and see what material he brings to these cases and see what I think of them. Conclusion: We could do a lot worse than lynching Onegu, but I'm finding it difficult to compensate for his apparently IRL-enforced shortage of time in terms of reading him. Rean + Show Spoiler + Not much has changed since the wagon on Rean in mid D1. He says he's not been posting because he has a headache - presumably true but that hardly makes him look better even so. Rean's early game play strikes me as being very unwilling to share his thoughts. He doesn't offer any original observations on his own, and when he is asked for observations he gives vague, one-line responses; hell, the first time he was asked about Mocsta he dodged making any statements about Mocsta's alignment, and was still exceedingly vague when I asked him directly about Mocsta's alignment. Rean has generally avoided giving definite points of view on anything all game - in fact the only instance of a definite read and opinion he gives is on me when he votes for me, which was 1) a safe opinion to hold at the time and 2) given the vague pokes he's made at me previously he kind of had to back them up with a vote or he'd have looked ridiculously tentative. Also his read was pretty rubbish, most everybody else in the thread eventually accepted my explanation of "pushing a wagon alternate to Corazon's" but Rean stubbornly claims that I can't have wanted to do that as a townie. There's a great deal of stubbornness about Rean's read on me which just doesn't match with his non-committal approach to all his other reads. His point of view about the Onegu wagon was "Onegu's definitely scummy but I don't like that it's taking attention away from the Aquanim wagon". An opinion like this isn't individually damning, but it continues the trend of non-committal play and reluctance to express opinions apart from the "safe" vote on me. I'm pretty sure Rayn's only argument as to why Rean was town is the following: On November 21 2013 23:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: The difference between Aquanim and Rean is both have made bad posts & contradicted themselves but unlike Aquanim, Rean admits he made a mistake or worded his thought poorly when it's pointed out. Aquanim makes up new reasons for his argument or licks strong players asses to make himself look better to them. And that is a fucking fact. THIS QUOTE ENDS HERE I'VE MADE A MISTAKE SOMEWHERE AND I CAN'T FIND THE MISSING TAG "Admitting he made a mistake" is hardly grounds for a serious townread on Rean. In fact, even if it was I can't see much in Rean's filter I'd describe this way - certainly less than I would find in my own. I admit that I've worded things poorly quite often. Honestly I get the feeling Rayn was mostly making this argument because he was butthurt that my lynch seemed to be evaporating. Suffice it to say that there's no love lost between Rayn and myself... Maybe Rayn was referring to this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=20#387 but I would describe this myself as "no no Rayn we're saying the same thing link hands with me so we can lynch aqua plz" rather than "whoops I fucked up this was what I meant to say". I don't think Rean has posted at all N1 so there's that too. Basically, I see nothing redeeming in Rean's filter at all. Conclusion: I think Rean is the most likely scum. Corazon + Show Spoiler + Bah, mostly. My gut read is very conflicted on Corazon. Things I like about Corazon: - The no-lynch vote. He must have known how bad this would make him look, and did it anyway. - He's taking some responsibility for his actions (this is mostly a gut read on my part): [QUOTE]On November 21 2013 15:16 cDgCorazon wrote: [QUOTE]On November 21 2013 14:55 Mocsta wrote: Corazon Regarding why you did not vote Sciberbia You stated that: early votes dont get traction so whats the point. If that is the case, why did you ask Sciberbia to put his vote where his mouth is? Cause I'm dumb and don't remember what I say before contradicting myself. [QUOTE]On November 22 2013 12:20 cDgCorazon wrote: ... I was transparent with my stance on Rayn and my decision to no-lynch. Onegu was very shady about it and I think it's because he is hiding the fact that he is scum.[/QUOTE] Things I don't like about Corazon: - The no-lynch vote, especially after sheeping onto the Rayn wagon with some shitty excuse (unrelated to Rayn being scum) earlier. Earlier Rayn was being too disruptive and had to go, and a little while before the lynch he's now certainly town and his disruptions are no longer worth voting off? Even at risk of no-lynching, which Corazon has to know is an utterly awful idea. I'd like to think that if his vote had been 100% necessary to a flip he'd have moved it back, but I just don't know. - His play at the start of the day. I still don't see what the point of going after Sciberbia like that was. - His antangonism towards Mocsta and Thrawn. Considering he isn't planning on lynching them any time soon this just seems like an excuse for activity. - He's focused in on Onegu something chronic. Isn't considering Jampidampi, Rean, etc. as possible lynches at all. Conclusion: Bleh... Corazon holds some points of view I don't understand and is pushing people who I don't think need to be pushed (sciberbia, Thrawn, Mocsta). I don't understand his motivations, but I'm not yet convinced that Corazon (in particular) wouldn't think his actions are a good idea as a townie. Overall I'd prefer to lynch the other people on this list who have contributed less. Holyflare + Show Spoiler + There were one or two sketchy things about LoneMeow's contributions in this slot which I won't go over again. Holyflare hasn't had time to contribute much so far. Can't say I'm impressed much with what he has contributed, though. Sure he consolidated onto Rayn at the end, but only while shouting about how it wasn't his fault that Rayn was going to flip green. I don't consider that he did enough work pushing an alternate wagon. I'm finding Holyflare's insistence that a lot of scum were on Rayn's wagon... disturbing, considering how greatly that opinion differs from my own. If Holyflare's scum, and most of the scumteam is not on the Rayn wagon (as I suspect), he obviously has a vested interest in pushing this point of view. I don't think he's incapable of thinking this as town, but if he continues to push this point without considering other facts, my read on him will only become scummier. Conclusion: Wait and see. Need more time to make a solid read here. Last minute addition: this doctor claim is bloody bizarre. I mean, if holyflare gets vigilante'd then we'd know he's a doctor anyway, so the only value to this claim is that if he gets vig'd and Thrawn gets shot as well so we'd know where the shot went. And I still don't think that's worth a doctor claim, putting aside the likelihood of us having both a doctor and a vigilante. Maybe he's scum with two lurkers and they're desperate? Maybe he's fakeclaiming to draw a kill away from somebody worthwhile? I just don't understand this claim. Obviously none of my reads are entirely confident at this point in time; I doubt I'll be shot tonight so I should have time to further explore them tomorrow. If I am killed, good luck. Some miscellaneous notes: @Onegu: You're inevitably going to come under some suspicion for the things you weren't around to comment on during day 1. Dealing with that by getting angry and explaining why you couldn't be here isn't going to fix it, and I hope you can at least understand that suspecting you is reasonable under the circumstances. If you do your best to contribute in the coming days with whatever time you do have, that's the most useful thing you can do. Oh, and an important point regarding considering the motivations of people lynching Rayn. I think it's been argued that at least some of Rayn's scum reads were correct and that they voted him off because of this. It's important to remember that Rayn's scum reads only materialised AFTER THEY VOTED FOR HIM, and so in my view this argument doesn't hold water. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Rayn's scum reads would have been ANYONE who voted for him, which renders the argument completely void. (For evidence of that, see Rayn's suspicions of Thrawn for no good reason and the shit he threw at me.) I've fucked up a quote tag somewhere and can't find it, I will fix and repost. | ||
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 23 2013 12:04 cDgCorazon wrote: Scum didn't kill. I'm pretty confident in that fact. They are very certain that today's lynch will be town, which would fall in line with their decision to lynch Rayn and not have him be lynched today. ...what? Give me one good reason why scum would give us an extra mislynch (I'm pretty sure that's what this means). | ||
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
With the death of Rayn, you can expect a return to your regularly scheduled broadcast of rational and reasonable Aquanim. I will have a look at these cases he asked us to read though. Bereft + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 13:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Bereft You stated Onegu is your town read. You filter four guys. Three which are your scumreads, and Onegu, your town read. That makes no sense given you have null-reads you should be filtering over your townreads in case you are trying to find scum. You are just following thread sentiment and it makes no sense. In fact you never even filter Aqua and Onegu after promising to do so. On November 21 2013 13:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: I want to lynch Bereft for the way he prioritizes things. That's fucking scummy. Notice Aqua was one of his three scumreads to filter. Now he has filtered Rean/Cora, has his vote on Rean, and defended Onegu's posts. He hasn't even read all his scumread's filters yet there is already a vote. A big no. Now sleep. Bereft filtered Onegu because he was asked to by Corazon: On November 21 2013 13:11 cDgCorazon wrote: Bereft, I would like to know why you don't think we should lynch Onegu. I was really puzzled when you threw that read out (as were others) and I just want to know why you see Onegu in a good light. When you said you thought he was town I got this feeling that we weren't reading the same game. In this same post Rayn claims that Bereft "never even filtered Onegu after promising to do so"... but Bereft did. Rayn must just have been not even thinking about his argument or something. It wasn't Bereft's immediately next post after promising to do so, but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation of Bereft. Bereft doesn't make some wallpost on me, that's true, but if Bereft's read of me has changed I can see why a town Bereft wouldn't bother to comment on my filter and conclude "I dunno, still need to think about it guys". Making a post like that would be a waste of time and I almost think better of Bereft for not doing it. There's also the 'scumslip' where Bereft said 'mislynch' but that's a typo regardless of Bereft's alignment. Conclusion: Rayn's case holds no merit. Bereft had a perfectly good reason to post about Onegu and a perfectly good reason not to post about me. Ideally of course Bereft would have posted aboue everyone, but given his time restrictions that's not reasonable to expect all the time. Mocsta + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 04:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: Quick version: - far too conservative and "nice", even towards me, throughout the game - puts on tunnel glasses when i stir up the thread (more on this later) - will not consider any motives but scum-motives to my actions which lasted ~15min (even after i explain myself) - should know better that it does not make me scum - scumslips (besides Bereft - who is also scum) - after that, when i call him out for it, look at his posts. rofl. suddenly he is "willing to reconsider". suddenly Rean is town while earlier asked everyone to consolidate on him. does a meta-search on Rean at that point, why no before? rofl. that's fucking ridiculous. - suddenly has "calmed down and is willing to discuss things with me" when it looks like i am ACTUALLY lynching myself. Do you know how fucking terrible Mocsta will look when i get lynched? I do. Because i am making a full case still. I am also making a full case on Bereft and JarJar. thrawn could be scum too (in case JarJar is just really dumb). He's just pushing people into thinking "don't talk to rayn, just vote for him" and at the same time saying things he knows i can't stand. But it's okay, i will not take the bait. The case will come. Also on Mocsta, Onegu's gutreads are actually really really good. I trust him on this, also because i am really sure he is town because he can't make a coherent case but still has strong reads. That's town Onegu. Well for starters the "full case" never evenutated. Moving on. 1) Rayn claims Mocsta is being "conservative and nice", even towards Rayn himself. I fail to see any particular scum motivation behind being nice as such. Mocsta has been effectively pushing his reads without being obnoxious and that's all I require. 2) Mocsta apparently puts on tunnel glasses when Rayn shits up the thread. I consider this entirely understandable from a town Mocsta - in fact I did it to some extent myself. The "more later" also never eventuated I don't believe. 3) and 6) So Mocsta "doesn't consider any motives besides scum-motives" and yet is "willing to reconsider". Yeah... no. 4) can't see any reason why mocsta "should know better" 5) I've already talked about this alleged "scumslip" I believe. Rayn's claim that it was a scumslip was utter rubbish. 7) I don't see why calming down and being willing to discuss things is scum-motivated. Conclusion: Rayn threw down a bunch of observations about Mocsta's play and claimed they made him scum. I don't see how any of this makes Mocsta scum myself, I thought Mocsta's approach to the Rayn wagon was entirely reasonable from town. Also, the scumslip doesn't exist. JarJarDrinks + Show Spoiler +
1) is demonstrably incorrect. Just read JJD's filter. 2) There's an element of truth to this in that JJD is not constantly putting his point of view forward. However, once he'd said everything there was to say about Rean that hadn't been said already, he moved to asking people why they weren't voting Rean and thus pressuring them to do so. Entirely acceptable town play. 3) also demonstrably incorrect 4) So JJD is pursuing Corazon and Rean at the same time. Just because he talks to Corazon more doesn't mean Corazon has to be his bigger scumread - Corazon's been in the thread more than Rean, so this is entirely what I would expect. 5) I don't even know what this means quite, but I think it's entirely believable that JJD posted in the way he did as town 6) "He has a vote on a scumread and when he gets a bigger scumread he moves his vote" is not equal to "not scumhunting". I see JJD asking questions about things he doesn't understand in others' play and pressuring his reads, which seems ok to me. Conclusion: This case isn't as demonstrably ridiculous but I'm still not convinced by it in any way. I wouldn't say that none of these three could possibly be scum but these cases don't prove squat. Moving on to some vote count analysis. + Show Spoiler + Some representative votecounts: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 11:43 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count cDgCorazon (1): Aquanim (5): thrawn2112. Rean (2): Aquanim, JarJarDrinks, Onegu (1): sciberbia Not Voting:: LoneMeow/Holyflare, Mocsta, Bereft The shift onto Rean began: + Show Spoiler + On November 21 2013 15:20 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count Aquanim (4): thrawn2112. Rean (4): Aquanim, JarJarDrinks, Onegu (1): sciberbia Bereft (1): raynpelikoneet Not Voting: LoneMeow/Holyflare, Onegu After this thrawn moved onto Rean, and then we dogpiled Rayn. + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 00:37 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count Aquanim (3): Onegu (1): sciberbia raynpelikoneet (5): thrawn2112, Mocsta. Aquanim, JarJarDrinks, Bereft jampidampi (1): raynpelikoneet The final votecount was: + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 11:57 ObviousOne wrote: Basic Vote Count Aquanim (2): Rean (1): raynpelikoneet (7): Mocsta (1): Onegu, No-Lynch (1): cDgCorazon I doubt all the scum are either on or off the Rayn wagon at the end on general principles - It's a town lynch so they don't need to commit exceptionally hard either way. If I was scum, Rayn would hardly be a priority target for me, I'd want him alive as long as possible to shit up the thread. If I had to guess, I'd say two scum off the wagon - {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon, Onegu} and one on it {everyone else}. + Show Spoiler + I've considered Holyflare and Sciberbia to be on the wagon for the purposes of this statement, because they were at least willing to consolidate onto it. I think it's important to remember that distinction, though. If there's scum on the Rayn wagon my first guess (based on lynch-related material) would be Holyflare simply due to his repeated insistence that the lynch wasn't his fault. Bereft and JJD are outside chances. I doubt Thrawn, Mocsta and Sciberbia are scum. The thought process of all five of these latter made sense (Sciberbia's position on Rayn was understandable and well reasoned though I disagreed at the time, the others policy lynched or had reasons to think Rayn was scum in various degrees). Holy didn't justify his position nearly as well, basically just called us all stupid. Similarly, I would guess that there was at least one scum on my wagon earlier in the day, though probably not all of them either. Since I'm pretty confident in Thrawn and Mocsta being town, that leaves {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon}. Hey, they're pretty much the same names - fancy that. It's harder to draw any conclusions about the Rean wagon since I don't know his alignment. However, I do like the names on his wagon (myself, Mocsta, JJD, Bereft, Rayn at some point, and eventually Thrawn). The hypothesis that Rean is scum and that thus zero or at most one scum didn't vote for him while there was stil a wagon on myself on offer is not contradicted by the votes on him, though this obviously isn't conclusive proof he's scum . If Rean flips town in the future I'll have to reassess my reads on the people in this list, though I think it's not impossible that all the votes on him could still be by townies. For instance, if scum were already committed to voting for me or for wherever else they've parked their vote (or in the case of Holyflare not even in the game yet). Or if they were mostly AFK during that phase of the game. Conclusion: If there's no scum in {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon, Onegu} I'll be very suprised (and I'd guess there's two), but the entire scumteam being in that list seems too damn easy as well. Hardly my most mindblowing discovery ever, but as more flips happen the day 1 picture should become clearer. These five players are the ones I'm not against lynching at this point in time. I'm pretty sure that at least two of the scum are in this group. I'd need a very good argument to lynch outside of this pool today. Jampidampi + Show Spoiler + His contributions have been decidedly lacklustre so far. He's been harping on about that single post of mine as pretty much his entire scumhunting content. The question I'm having difficulty answering is "Is this all Jampidampi is capable of as town?". If this was, say, Mocsta I'd lynch them out of hand, but this is kind of believable from a town Jampidampi. It's difficult for me to determine from my perspective whether he could reasonably believe I haven't answered his point about that post already. I'd appreciate anyone with an outside view weighing in with their perspective on this. For the record his argument is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=34#676 to which my reply is: How is observing that a player hasn't answered a question scummy? You can claim that my motivation was to "throw dirt on" Jampidampi, but that's only a single possible explanation for that post. Another one (and the correct one) is that I thought Jampidampi needed more incentive to answer the question and to offer more constructive opinions. I think I mentioned at some point during day 1 that this kind of paranoia about people "throwing dirt on me, oh teh noes" is somewhat more characteristic of town than scum. That does not, however, mean that I think a scum player *couldn't* pretend to be paranoid in that way. The fact of the matter is that Jampidampi's kept repeating that single, crappy point about me while largely ignoring the rest of my filter and saying as little as possible about anything else in the thread. If he's town I hope he picks up his play, otherwise we may just have to lynch him and pray he's not playing this badly as a townie. Conclusion: I'm not immediately eager to lynch Jampidampi (again the lynchbait argument), but if he continues to pass up on opportunities to contribute then my mind will change. There's only so much failure to contribute that I will tolerate. Onegu + Show Spoiler + Reading Onegu is just damn hard because I don't think he's had enough time to read and evaluate the thread entirely and, worse, I don't know what parts he's read and which he hasn't. The go he had at Mocsta at the start wouldn't be believable if I thought Onegu had the time to make an indepth analysis of the thread, but I don't think that so :/ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=38#756 This post is kind of good in that Onegu's shown what he thinks of everyone, though I am finding it difficult to read since it's more a list of disjointed thoughts than any illustration of overall trends (which I would put more weight onto). On November 22 2013 22:49 Onegu wrote: Ill be back in a bit to make my case on mocsta and bereft. Third scum I am still trying to figure out. Have another game to catch up on but Ill be up late tonight to play so any questions ask me and I will answer. I think he's completely wrong on Mocsta and Bereft though. I'll wait and see what material he brings to these cases and see what I think of them. Conclusion: We could do a lot worse than lynching Onegu, but I'm finding it difficult to compensate for his apparently IRL-enforced shortage of time in terms of reading him. Rean + Show Spoiler + Not much has changed since the wagon on Rean in mid D1. He says he's not been posting because he has a headache - presumably true but that hardly makes him look better even so. Rean's early game play strikes me as being very unwilling to share his thoughts. He doesn't offer any original observations on his own, and when he is asked for observations he gives vague, one-line responses; hell, the first time he was asked about Mocsta he dodged making any statements about Mocsta's alignment, and was still exceedingly vague when I asked him directly about Mocsta's alignment. Rean has generally avoided giving definite points of view on anything all game - in fact the only instance of a definite read and opinion he gives is on me when he votes for me, which was 1) a safe opinion to hold at the time and 2) given the vague pokes he's made at me previously he kind of had to back them up with a vote or he'd have looked ridiculously tentative. Also his read was pretty rubbish, most everybody else in the thread eventually accepted my explanation of "pushing a wagon alternate to Corazon's" but Rean stubbornly claims that I can't have wanted to do that as a townie. There's a great deal of stubbornness about Rean's read on me which just doesn't match with his non-committal approach to all his other reads. His point of view about the Onegu wagon was "Onegu's definitely scummy but I don't like that it's taking attention away from the Aquanim wagon". An opinion like this isn't individually damning, but it continues the trend of non-committal play and reluctance to express opinions apart from the "safe" vote on me. I'm pretty sure Rayn's only argument as to why Rean was town is the following: On November 21 2013 23:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: The difference between Aquanim and Rean is both have made bad posts & contradicted themselves but unlike Aquanim, Rean admits he made a mistake or worded his thought poorly when it's pointed out. Aquanim makes up new reasons for his argument or licks strong players asses to make himself look better to them. And that is a fucking fact. "Admitting he made a mistake" is hardly grounds for a serious townread on Rean. In fact, even if it was I can't see much in Rean's filter I'd describe this way - certainly less than I would find in my own. I admit that I've worded things poorly quite often. Honestly I get the feeling Rayn was mostly making this argument because he was butthurt that my lynch seemed to be evaporating. Suffice it to say that there's no love lost between Rayn and myself... Maybe Rayn was referring to this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=20#387 but I would describe this myself as "no no Rayn we're saying the same thing link hands with me so we can lynch aqua plz" rather than "whoops I fucked up this was what I meant to say". I don't think Rean has posted at all N1 so there's that too. Basically, I see nothing redeeming in Rean's filter at all. Conclusion: I think Rean is the most likely scum. Corazon + Show Spoiler + Bah, mostly. My gut read is very conflicted on Corazon. Things I like about Corazon: - The no-lynch vote. He must have known how bad this would make him look, and did it anyway. - He's taking some responsibility for his actions (this is mostly a gut read on my part): On November 21 2013 15:16 cDgCorazon wrote: Cause I'm dumb and don't remember what I say before contradicting myself. On November 22 2013 12:20 cDgCorazon wrote: ... I was transparent with my stance on Rayn and my decision to no-lynch. Onegu was very shady about it and I think it's because he is hiding the fact that he is scum. Things I don't like about Corazon: - The no-lynch vote, especially after sheeping onto the Rayn wagon with some shitty excuse (unrelated to Rayn being scum) earlier. Earlier Rayn was being too disruptive and had to go, and a little while before the lynch he's now certainly town and his disruptions are no longer worth voting off? Even at risk of no-lynching, which Corazon has to know is an utterly awful idea. I'd like to think that if his vote had been 100% necessary to a flip he'd have moved it back, but I just don't know. - His play at the start of the day. I still don't see what the point of going after Sciberbia like that was. - His antangonism towards Mocsta and Thrawn. Considering he isn't planning on lynching them any time soon this just seems like an excuse for activity. - He's focused in on Onegu something chronic. Isn't considering Jampidampi, Rean, etc. as possible lynches at all. Conclusion: Bleh... Corazon holds some points of view I don't understand and is pushing people who I don't think need to be pushed (sciberbia, Thrawn, Mocsta). I don't understand his motivations, but I'm not yet convinced that Corazon (in particular) wouldn't think his actions are a good idea as a townie. Overall I'd prefer to lynch the other people on this list who have contributed less. Holyflare + Show Spoiler + There were one or two sketchy things about LoneMeow's contributions in this slot which I won't go over again. Holyflare hasn't had time to contribute much so far. Can't say I'm impressed much with what he has contributed, though. Sure he consolidated onto Rayn at the end, but only while shouting about how it wasn't his fault that Rayn was going to flip green. I don't consider that he did enough work pushing an alternate wagon. I'm finding Holyflare's insistence that a lot of scum were on Rayn's wagon... disturbing, considering how greatly that opinion differs from my own. If Holyflare's scum, and most of the scumteam is not on the Rayn wagon (as I suspect), he obviously has a vested interest in pushing this point of view. I don't think he's incapable of thinking this as town, but if he continues to push this point without considering other facts, my read on him will only become scummier. Conclusion: Wait and see. Need more time to make a solid read here. Last minute addition: this doctor claim is bloody bizarre. I mean, if holyflare gets vigilante'd then we'd know he's a doctor anyway, so the only value to this claim is that if he gets vig'd and Thrawn gets shot as well so we'd know where the shot went. And I still don't think that's worth a doctor claim, putting aside the likelihood of us having both a doctor and a vigilante. Maybe he's scum with two lurkers and they're desperate? Maybe he's fakeclaiming to draw a kill away from somebody worthwhile? I just don't understand this claim. Obviously none of my reads are entirely confident at this point in time; I doubt I'll be shot tonight so I should have time to further explore them tomorrow. If I am killed, good luck. Some miscellaneous notes: @Onegu: You're inevitably going to come under some suspicion for the things you weren't around to comment on during day 1. Dealing with that by getting angry and explaining why you couldn't be here isn't going to fix it, and I hope you can at least understand that suspecting you is reasonable under the circumstances. If you do your best to contribute in the coming days with whatever time you do have, that's the most useful thing you can do. Oh, and an important point regarding considering the motivations of people lynching Rayn. I think it's been argued that at least some of Rayn's scum reads were correct and that they voted him off because of this. It's important to remember that Rayn's scum reads only materialised AFTER THEY VOTED FOR HIM, and so in my view this argument doesn't hold water. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Rayn's scum reads would have been ANYONE who voted for him, which renders the argument completely void. (For evidence of that, see Rayn's suspicions of Thrawn for no good reason and the shit he threw at me.) | ||
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 23 2013 12:07 cDgCorazon wrote: Because either no one is on the right track or they are confident that we aren't going to find them. They're not giving us an extra mislynch, read the OP. If they didn't shoot tonight that means they get 2 KP tomorrow night. My bad, you're quite right. I don't see why this means that we're not on the right track though, unless you think that absolutely anyone they could shoot would increase suspicion of them. Shooting Thrawn or Mocsta wouldn't change today's lynch much I don't think. | ||
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On November 23 2013 12:10 cDgCorazon wrote: @Aqua Did you read this? (The big post in the spoiler) Does this help you understand my vote D1? I understand why you might have chosen to do it as a townie. I can also see why you might have chosen to do it as scum (to avoid being partially responsible for the Rayn lynch when you had the least solid justification of all the votes on that lynch). At this point I don't know which of the two explanations is the correct one, but you have persuaded me that the first one is at least plausible. | ||
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On November 23 2013 12:00 cDgCorazon wrote: When did I attack Mocsta for being scum? I think you're asking me this question, and now that I read again you're mostly 1) unimpressed with the ego battle between Mocsta and Rayn and 2) not happy with the "buddying" between Mocsta and Thrawn. I don't think I thought you were attacking Mocsta for being scum as such but you have been talking a fair bit about Mocsta above other people who I think are far, far more likely to flip scum. | ||
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On November 23 2013 12:34 JarJarDrinks wrote: The only reason scum wouldn't shoot is if Holyflare is scum and is looking for cred for his doc claim. Which is such a huge stretch and makes no sense for several reasons that I don't think we need to entertain it. So I think we should all just assume that scum attack was foiled. Whether or not it was a HF heal or something else, we can't be sure. HF made his claim 17 minutes before the deadline. More than enough time for scum to change it's target. So I think the shooter was roleblocked. I think we should discuss a potential roleclaim from anyone w/ a roleblocking role. Would love to hear opinions on it. And Holy, can u post ur flavor please? Scum have the power to withhold their shot and use it tomorrow. Can you tihnk of a particularly good reason why they wouldn't choose to do this? | ||
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##Vote: Rean It's in the wallpost. Mostly this vote's because he's been very relucant to express his views and hasn't pushed anything besides a vote on me which looked really safe at the time. @Thrawn: Bereft's already replied to your case here. What about his defence do you find unpersuasive? | ||
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On November 23 2013 14:50 Onegu wrote: Lol, Im back. Im the best flip for day 2 because then you can lynch mocsta and bereft in order, followed by up to you, but this post I am scum is so bad. My question was not meant to state that I specifically think Onegu's scum, simply that if Corazon thought Onegu was scum then the "scum OFF the Rayn lynch" had already been satisfied. I didn't want to lynch Mocsta and Bereft on Rayn's say-so after he flipped, and I won't want to lynch them on yours Onegu unless you make a very convincing argument. | ||
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On November 23 2013 15:06 cDgCorazon wrote: Why haven't you been a factor in the scumhunting this whole game? You could've been there at the lynch. You could've chimed in a few hours before and said why you wanted to stay on Mocsta. It wasn't at an ungodly hour for where you were. Your vote, no matter how good it is, does not absolve you of the poor standard of play you have showed us so far. I don't think that pursuing the time of Onegu's absenses from the thread is a productive use of your time Corazon. Onegu has already said he wasn't available for a lot of day 1. If you don't believe him, you don't believe it applies for at least some of the time he was gone, or you think we just have to policy lynch him for insufficient contributions, then lynch him. If you don't, don't. I don't see the point in pressuring Onegu about it other than to piss him off, which gets us nowhere and will only make it harder to read him. | ||
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On November 23 2013 12:41 Aquanim wrote: ... @Thrawn: Bereft's already replied to your case here. What about his defence do you find unpersuasive? | ||
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Do you think Rean is scum? If not, convince me. | ||
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On November 23 2013 15:51 thrawn2112 wrote: First I want you to explain why you don't care about the Bereft discussion. You asked me once about Bereft's (him/her? I want to use pronouns) defense, I ignored the question, and you found it important enough to ask me again, so why are you doing nothing with my answer and trying to change the conversation? Because I think Bereft's town and I want to talk about people who I think are scum. Bereft's attitude to Rayn that there is no value in keeping Rayn in the game regardless of his alignment is pretty much the same as my own opinion of Rayn and played a part in my desire to lynch him. Saying "I can't see town doing this" is a meaningful way to express your opinion as long as you specify what "this" is, which Bereft did: On November 22 2013 00:00 Bereft wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Rayn I think its completely irrational for a townie to bust into the thread the way rayn is doing now flinging shit like an angry bull. there is no reason for him to be behaving this way as town. And I agree that there was no reason for Rayn to behave that way as town. Even after Rayn has flipped I still don't think he was playing to his win-con. He was deliberately trying to lynch himself a long time before his lynch was completely settled... I think Bereft not wanting to talk to Rayn is perfectly understandable - Rayn is an unpleasant person to talk to. Bereft did in fact have at least some interactions with Rayn, however. Furthermore, if Bereft was convinced that Rayn was the best lynch what further profit is there in talking to Rayn? Far better to prod other people into voting for Rayn, like so: On November 22 2013 02:16 Bereft wrote: why do you think its more beneficial to keep a toxic player around who gives the fake intention of martyring (without actually intending to be a martyr) vs an analytical level headed player who's at least giving the impression of being as transparent as possible? On November 22 2013 11:42 Bereft wrote: holyflare is there any chance you'd be willing to vote rayn? even if not voting rayn means a no lynch? how about you, scib? Furthermore, Bereft's made some posts which perfectly echoed my own thoughts at the time; thinking in ways I don't think a scum would think. On November 22 2013 07:56 Bereft wrote: I will be shocked -- SHOCKED -- if rayn flips town. but not sorry. Rean, you caught up on the thread yet? HF, how far along are you? On November 23 2013 10:34 Bereft wrote: @Cora - neither. the 1-2 people on the rayn train are holyflare and MAYBE aqua. naturally I find the afkers suspicious, esp onegu and rean, but I haven't had a chance to reread filters. probably won't have a chance to go through them till later tonight or tomorrow though. aqua is actually coming off as fairly town to me right now, but I suspect that while maybe 2 scum are in the obviously sketchy lurker group, 1 is hiding in plain sight among my proactive, townie reads. the town read I plan to reevaluate is aqua. (Obviously I don't plan to reevaluate myself but my current working theory is 2 sketchy lurkers and one proactive player.) And finally, gut says Bereft's town. Your turn, what don't you like about lynching Rean? | ||
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On November 23 2013 16:13 Onegu wrote: 1) I am feeling at least 2 as they dont want a no lynch on rayn to happen, yes rayn is controversal and he takes over the thread, but a town rayn will figure things out and push his reads to death. Rayns vote being so close is why I say that. 2) Ill make my own cases in a moment, disagree with his JJD read though. I think that scum definitely wouldn't mind a no-lynch over lynching Rayn. Rayn shits up town atmosphere something chronic. Take a look sometime at how many games where rayn was killed N1 town won, and how many games where he was killed much later scum won. It's educational. | ||
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On November 23 2013 16:17 Aquanim wrote: I think that scum definitely wouldn't mind a no-lynch over lynching Rayn. Rayn shits up town atmosphere something chronic. Take a look sometime at how many games where rayn was killed N1 town won, and how many games where he was killed much later scum won. It's educational. In fact, the only way I can see scum sticking out their necks a long way to lynch Rayn is to save Rean, who was looking very likely to be the lynch otherwise. | ||
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On November 23 2013 16:23 Onegu wrote: Also when are people going to realize this is a game of logic not emotion, rayn never personally attacks people, he only attacks thier gameplay. I have a problem when people are attacked with personal assults that have nothing to do with the game rayn never does this. Rayn forces his reads down your throat, and when he is throwning reads everywhere and changeing them constantly its difficult to follow, but when he tunnels onto someone most of the time he is right. And in this game say what you want rayn was playing the game and wanting to policy lynch him for it dumb. Mocsta you habe played multiple games with him why all of a sudden do you want to policy lynch him this game? Okay now you're just wrong. Rayn was deliberately trying to get himself lynched this game to prove that we couldn't read him, which is a bloody stupid way to play. I've seen him relentlessly tunnel many townies. And as for not personally attacking people: On November 22 2013 11:08 raynpelikoneet wrote: At least i am not a whiny little girl when i am accused of being scum. On November 22 2013 11:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: he's just hrowing shit at me for no reason. there is no reason to do so if he is town. when i flip he'll act "angry" and "FUCK YOURAYN WHY DID YOU DO SO". t_T you're a sad person aquanim In any case this is no longer relevant to today's lynch so can we drop it? | ||
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On November 23 2013 16:58 thrawn2112 wrote: Aqua, Rean is town. I just finished rereading his filter, paying close attention to the parts where he is being pressured. Much of it reads as extremely genuine. I don't know why a scum player would post this. What would scum rean be trying to accomplish here? The rayn mislynch, or no-lynch, both of which suit scum's purposes, was progressing along just fine. Why wouldn't he sit back and post nothing? Entering the thread with an excuse post with 8 minutes left until a very controversial lynch can only possibly get everyone's attention. People were desperately looking to either find more rayn voters or to find an alternate target. Rean was already well on track to being lynched earlier... surely he would have known not make that post. Suppose Rean is a scum player with a headache. (I reckon playing scum would give me a headache.) If he'd posted absolutely nothing in that time period he'd look awful now - he'd have completely dodged all discussion about the Rayn lynch, whereas now he at least has an excuse for not having argued one way or another there. I don't think that he took much of a risk of getting lynched by posting that - that post may attract some attention to him but it hardly makes him look so instantly scummy that he's liable to go from 0 to 7 votes in less than 10 minutes. The replies he makes when he's pressured by Rayn don't look scummy as such to me, but I don't see anything particularly genuine about them myself either. If you can explain this further I might understand better. I just can't get past the fact that so very, very little of Rean's filter is him contributing on his own initiative - he's had to be prodded for almost everything he's said all game, and I don't see any insights or evidence of serious analytical thought in the answers he has provided. If he's town I am hoping my vote on him will incite him to perform better in this regard. I agree with you that Jampidampi's contributions this game have been entirely underwhelming. If the Rean wagon doesn't fly I'm willing to join you on Jampidampi. For the moment though I'm happier where I am. Also, I'm concerned that if we lynch Jampidampi and he flips town we will have learned almost nothing (hell we won't learn much if he flips scum), whereas if Rean flips town we will at least learn what alignment one of the main wagons of D1 was directed at. This extends to even discussion of their lynches - there's honestly not much to talk about re. a Jampi lynch. | ||
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On November 23 2013 17:35 Mocsta wrote: In the above, I am reading a lot about poor play. - Provides an excuse to not join an important discussion - Doesn't "feel" genuine - Doesn't contribute on his own initiative What I am not reading is why any of this is scum-motive indicative. Townies have always been guilty for poor play, and plenty of townies will not contribute until asked/pressured. 80/20 rule stands tall. I must say that this response is *very* underwhelming. This is exacerbated due to you replying in order to reason why REan is scummy. Your objective was not achieved - not even remotely. You are out of my "The Good" bracket Aquanim. "Plenty of townies will not contribute until asked/pressured". Fine. If Rean is town what do you think I'm doing currently? I was explaining to Thrawn why providing the excuse wasn't a townie thing to do either (do you contest this?). The feeling genuine or not was Thrawn's point, not mine. Not contributing on one's own initiative can't be town-motivated, since a townie would be trying to get more information out of the thread and improve his reads. Therefore it's likely scum-motivated. I agree with you that Rean could be a townie playing poorly. I don't think it's the most likely explanation since I've seen many scum not contribute to the thread much on their own initiative, and fewer town. If he's town then hopefully my criticism of his town play will prompt him to do better (rather than just yelling at me over it, which I have a vain hope he won't do as a townie). If he's scum then hopefully my case and whatever response he makes to it will convince you that he is so we can lynch him. | ||
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On November 23 2013 17:58 thrawn2112 wrote: Aqua I think rayn was right about you. Sometime during N1 I started thinking that your posts sound extremely fake and this post looks like the most fake of all of them. I've highlighted all the parts that seem contrived. The last paragraph doesn't make any sense. We are at the very beginning of the cycle.. why wouldn't a jampi lynch tell us anything? There is still more than 40 hours to talk about him. There is a lot we can talk about in regards to a jampi lynch. For starters, I would like you to give your read on him, rather than by agreeing you will consolidate if needed, because that is something that most people will say about most lynches. What is your read on jampi? Jampidampi + Show Spoiler + His contributions have been decidedly lacklustre so far. He's been harping on about that single post of mine as pretty much his entire scumhunting content. The question I'm having difficulty answering is "Is this all Jampidampi is capable of as town?". If this was, say, Mocsta I'd lynch them out of hand, but this is kind of believable from a town Jampidampi. It's difficult for me to determine from my perspective whether he could reasonably believe I haven't answered his point about that post already. I'd appreciate anyone with an outside view weighing in with their perspective on this. For the record his argument is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582¤tpage=34#676 to which my reply is: How is observing that a player hasn't answered a question scummy? You can claim that my motivation was to "throw dirt on" Jampidampi, but that's only a single possible explanation for that post. Another one (and the correct one) is that I thought Jampidampi needed more incentive to answer the question and to offer more constructive opinions. I think I mentioned at some point during day 1 that this kind of paranoia about people "throwing dirt on me, oh teh noes" is somewhat more characteristic of town than scum. That does not, however, mean that I think a scum player *couldn't* pretend to be paranoid in that way. The fact of the matter is that Jampidampi's kept repeating that single, crappy point about me while largely ignoring the rest of my filter and saying as little as possible about anything else in the thread. If he's town I hope he picks up his play, otherwise we may just have to lynch him and pray he's not playing this badly as a townie. Conclusion: I'm not immediately eager to lynch Jampidampi (again the lynchbait argument), but if he continues to pass up on opportunities to contribute then my mind will change. There's only so much failure to contribute that I will tolerate. In short, Jampidampi's been useless, not adressed the rayn thing, sat on his vote on me, etc, I agree, but the one game of Jampidampi's I've seen (Newbie 34) he was similarly useless as town and got lynched for it. Therefore I don't have a high degree of confidence in determining Jampi's alignment either way. On the other hand, in TL Mafia 38 Rean was significantly more aggressive and free with his opinions than in this game. (link) I don't see anything meaningful I can say to your allegations of "contrived" rather than "I'm town". I have a wide vocabulary and sometimes I abuse it with flowery speech, if that's what you're getting at. | ||
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On November 23 2013 18:38 thrawn2112 wrote: ... That explanation reminded me of the explanation Aquanim gave at the very beginning of the game when I first accused him of not scumhunting. It's too clean, too "townie," too much what "I want to hear" from a town player. ... So you think I might be scum because my motives are too much like what you think a townie's motives should be? That says a hell of a lot about this forum. Look, I'm sick of this. My defence of my play IS my play. If you look at my posts and you seriously think that I am not a townie playing to my wincondition as best I can, then lynch me. Otherwise, get out of my face and let me do my thing to catch scum. | ||
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On November 23 2013 19:08 Bereft wrote: Aqua, you shouldn't get mad, you should get flattered! the only reason you're on my "town I ought to reevaluate" list is because from your analysis, articulation, phrasing, etc, i think you're smart and highly capable of being scum while coming off as pro-town. and I guess this post (I really don't like this post): what was the point behind this? it comes off as fluff. or is it meant to be a soft defense of thrawn with the caveat that he needs more activity? that being said, i think Aqua would be a horrible lynch for today given the other candidates out there. unless he shoots himself in the foot / something in the thread drastically changes, i can pretty safely say i won't be voting for him today. I think that that post accurately expressed my opinion of Thrawn at a time when he was being discussed. I thought it would be a good idea to expose my thought process re. Thrawn since I hadn't spoken about him in some time. At the same time, since I think that Thrawn's town I didn't think that further disucssion of a point against him which I believed was flawed (namely that his decreased thread presence was significantly scummy) would be productive, and so I argued against it. + Show Spoiler + I mean, if Thrawn suddenly drops off the map with no explanation that'll be a problem as I expressed in the last sentence. But I don't think there's any risk of that, and it's not particularly useful to theorise about that possibility at this point. I agree that that post is more fluffy and less useful than a lot I've made. They can't all be perfect. I still think it accomplished its purpose though. | ||
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... Rean and jamp literally have not posted more than once in like 2 days I think. Between the two I think what there is of Rean's filter is significantly scummier, and depending on what he does (or doesn't do) today he could very realistically be the best lynch. ... I obviously don't disagree with you, but what are your reasons for thinking Rean is a better lynch than Jampidampi? I'm aware they may at least partially overlap with mine but I'd like to hear you express them in your own words. | ||
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On November 24 2013 07:28 cDgCorazon wrote: To be honest I don't really care about what I said. People are going to find a way to twist it to look scummy. I don't like a post from JJD but I don't think he's scum but I do think he's scum but I'm not going to vote for him and now I'm just rambling on and shitting up the thread and I don't really care and I don't really care and this person is scummy and this is what is going on in my head and i think im so important that i should share every thought i have and i can wish-wash and call people scummy yet not think they are scum and not vote for them and basically waste our time with useless bullshit and tire me out because i just want to play but i get called scum every-other post that i make and scum try to pick on me andandnandandnandnandandnandnandnandnandandnandnandnandnandandn @Corazon Look, I understand where you're coming from. I've been getting a lot of nitpicking questions this game and I'm getting bloody sick of it too. That being said... please, PLEASE stop doing this. Flying off the handle and getting angry at JJD and whoever else: - Is not going to change their opinion - Does not help me determine your alignment - Does not help me determine anybody else's alignment I lack the ability to tell whether these posts of yours are faked anger as scum, legitimate anger as a townie, or even legitimate anger as scum. Therefore they are not useful to me. Take a walk if you have to, cool off a bit. Straight-up ignore accusations you regard as ridiculous if you have to. But please, if you're town, work on convincing me and other townies that your scum reads are correct rather than doing this. A question for Corazon: AFAIK you currently believe Onegu is scum. What do you think of his case on Bereft? In terms of how it reflects on him, though I'd like your thoughts on whether he's raised convincing points against Bereft too. | ||
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On November 24 2013 08:21 Mocsta wrote: Aquanim What do you think of Scibs response to Onegu regarding that Bereft case? I think he raises fair points about the Bereft case. I would have worded them quite differently, but that's unimportant. Sciberbia didn't touch on every point, which honestly makes me feel better about him - he adressed the ones he thought were important and therefore made a judgement about which were important. I'm inclined to agree with his judgement. Points he didn't talk about, like "tunnels Rayn but is OK to vote Cora now", the Venn diagram, and some other miscellaneous posts, were in fact more peripheral to Onegu's case and generally far less conclusive. | ||
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uh... pretty pretty please with a cherry on top, Corazon? + Show Spoiler + I got nuffin' Seriously though, I think Mocsta's asked a reasonable question and given you an opportunity to contribute, as opposed to just baiting you out. Getting angrier won't solve the impasse we're currently at. If you need to take a break for a while, go and do it. I've found it's helped me in similar situations in the past (this game and others). | ||
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On November 24 2013 09:12 Mocsta wrote: I disagree - that it makes me feel better about him. I'm concerned. So heres context for question 2. - Scibs from late Day1 has Onegu as his best scum read. Do you think Scibs was addressing Onegu's case as if he was talking to a top scum read? I think Sciberbia's post here is saying he prefers a Jampi or Rean lynch over Onegu. That being said, your question of "Is Sciberbia adressing Onegu like a scum read?" still holds. In my opinion, Sciberbia is adressing Onegu in a reasonable tone and without accusing/insiniuating that Onegu is scum, with the purpose of drawing Onegu into discussion and exposing Onegu's thought process so that Sciberbia can try to determine whether said thought process is that of a town Onegu or not. Especially early in the day I think it's more important to try to draw out more information than to be directly pushing a lynch. I also think that Onegu will respond better to reasonable questioning such as Sciberbia has done than to direct pressure, and I think Sciberbia has correctly identified this. + Show Spoiler + On the other hand, my impression of Rean from this game is that he isn't going to contribute much of anything without direct pressure. Furthermore, I doubt that if I was to try to speak reasonably to Rean he would reply reasonably, given that presumably I'm still his alleged top scumread. If somebody else who Rean has no reason/excuse to just shout back at would like to speak with him on more reasonable terms, I would appreciate that. tl;dr I think Sciberbia's approach to drawing Onegu into discussion is entirely consistent with a town mindset. | ||
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On November 24 2013 09:31 Mocsta wrote: I didn't think it would take 13minutes for a response. It didn't but then I closed the tab by accident :/ | ||
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I think the next step is to obtain other opinions and await a response by Sciberbia. | ||
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On November 24 2013 09:38 cDgCorazon wrote: Why are these posts basically the same? Why are they both attacking Mocsta and trying to pass the blame for the Rayn lynch solely on him? Cause they are scum! Do you think one of them could be town and the other one scum sheeping a convenient opinion? | ||
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On November 24 2013 09:44 cDgCorazon wrote: To be honest they look like the exact same post and neither of them were followed up with any suspicion on Mocsta. I think it's more likely that HF was trying to distance himself from the lynch and Onegu is trying to pretend to scum-hunt to gain the town cred he so desperately needs right now. I could see both of them trying this. I'm not certain I understood the point correctly. Are you saying that they are both scum for having the same opinion, or each of them is scum individually because they have that opinion and it's scummy? | ||
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On November 24 2013 09:58 Holyflare wrote: That onegu thing is really REALLY scummy by the way. Which Onegu thing? The case he made on Bereft, Sciberbia's comments on that case, Onegu's opinion agreeing with yours, or something else? be specific. | ||
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If you think Mocsta/Onegu is scum, make a case and I will evaluate it on its merits. Your sniping at them without ever making it exactly clear what you think of them overall and why is unproductive. | ||
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On November 24 2013 10:55 sciberbia wrote: Also your reasons for thinking Onegu are town are really wrong. In the 1 game I played with him he made several cases as scum. Which game was this, I'd like to read it. | ||
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On November 24 2013 11:50 sciberbia wrote: @Aquanim, Cora How likely do you think Mocsta is to be scum? ... Very unlikely. I have prior experience with Mocsta (Newbie XXXIII, TL Mafia LX, obsed some other games of his) and gut is screaming town. His jumping from read to read, changing previous reads with a new perspective, and occasionally less-than-well-thought-out arguments are what I'd expect from him. I think if it weren't for Mocsta this thread would be pretty dead overall, he's been doing a lot of the pushing. Just on those grounds I think he's town and certainly a terrible lynch today. | ||
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On November 24 2013 12:05 thrawn2112 wrote: ##Vote: JarJarDrinks I might can do the Onegu thing but I need to reaffirm my position on him. I am much more confident about JarJar for the reasons I posted in the "notes" spoiler and what I said in my last quote. My read on JJD yesterday was town but I haven't looked at him again in some time. I'll reassess him. | ||
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On November 24 2013 12:09 cDgCorazon wrote: Please vote Onegu I spent like an hour on that case and you are the only one who has acknowledged its existence... Duly acknowledged. I want to see his Mocsta case before I make firm conclusions about Onegu's alignment. | ||
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On November 24 2013 13:15 JarJarDrinks wrote: Moc, I've been a solid town read for you all game long. You need to explain what exactly changed ur mind cause it looks like ur straight up just looking for any wagon to jump on. @JJD: Are you seriously asserting that Mocsta's overall gameplan this game is to look for a wagon to sheep? Please give evidence if this is so. | ||
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The Rayn lynch There were five of us on the Rayn wagon until consolidation happened: Aquanim, Thrawn, Mocsta, Bereft, and JarJarDrinks. The case for Rayn scum was passable but in hindsight had some holes (in particular I'm thinking of the meta point Sciberbia raised). The extra ingredient which made the Rayn wagon justifiable to the townies on the Rayn wagon was genuine frusturation with Rayn's play. Representative quotes: + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 10:47 Mocsta wrote: I thought you had bigger balls. I don't want to play with Rayn anymore full stop. We had a good town environment until page 25ish and I was relaly enjoying this game. He has single handedly shit the thread and this game has completely denigrated into somethign I have no interest playing anymore. My vote is staying on Rayn. /post-game If rayn is town this game, you will be added to my personal ban list. Im pretty fucking disgusted right now. On November 22 2013 10:02 Bereft wrote: hahaha. classic. anyone who thinks you are town is town. Most of JJD's posts about Rayn are on page 3 of his filter: link And sure, JJD has a fair few posts expressing dissatisfaction with Rayn. However, I'm not sure I buy it quite so much as the posts of Mocsta, Bereft and Thrawn. This is mostly a gut thing, and I'm not certain that JJD was not genuine. The largest difference in the properties of JJD's posts to everybody else's which I can see is that JJD focuses in on individual flaws in Rayn's arguments rather than generalising to the entirety of Rayn's play. An inability to see the bigger picture *could* be indicative of a scum who isn't thinking about the game seriously and trying to get a rounded view of Rayn's posts. Overall contribution In fact I would characterise most of JJD's contibutions as focusing in on individual posts which he finds scummy rather than giving an opinion on a player as a whole. I would consider this a scummy way to approach the game - as a townie I certaintly try to evaluate a player's entire filter before giving a read, whereas I can imagine scum wouldn't go to the effort. My impression from a look at his town game in Newbie 39 (link) and in Basterd Mafialink)is that the quality of his thought is better there - there's more assimilation of the entirety of each player's filter into a judgement of their alignment. Particularly in Basterd I also think his play is more dynamic and he's more interested in the game. In Bluelightz as scum: (link) I think he cherrypicks aspects of a person's filter more, like he's doing this game. I really haven't gone into much depth on my meta reading but my feeling is that this game is more similar to his scum meta than his town one. It's a vague feeling, though. Conclusion: JJD's filter gives me bad feelings now but I can't pin down what makes him scummier than Onegu/Holyflare/(Rean/Jampidampi). He's no longer a townread. | ||
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##Vote: Holyflare | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: Holyflare | ||
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On November 24 2013 11:39 Holyflare wrote: If you really think I play scum by claiming doctor and posting next to nothing to look towny you are actually dumb and have not done what I asked. Like I said, go read actual games I have played in. The town meta of players typically does not change dramatically from game to game in my experience. This is not Holy's town meta. The scum meta of players DOES change from game to game, to avoid being similar to their last game and caught in this way. If Holy played scum exactly the same way as he played last time that would just be stupid. | ||
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It would take some balls for Holy to claim it without knowing that, but I don't think it's even nearly impossible. | ||
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##Unvote Let me think about this. | ||
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On November 24 2013 17:28 sciberbia wrote: Lurking through the rayn lynch is by far the single scummiest thing anybody has done this entire game. I can't even imagine myself, as town, reading the 100 posts between pages 50 and 55 (the hour leading up to the lynch), and not posting my thoughts. That's crunch time. That's when the game is won or lost. It's when all the drama happens. The lynch was in question and everybody else online was vehemently discussing it, but JJD was just sitting there passing the time. On the other hand, I can easily see scum doing it. Rayn looked likely to be lynched so scum probably didn't feel much pressure. There's no reason for scum to be posting with a townie lynch coming down the pipeline. ... Dunno why it didn't quite reach my brain until this repetition, but yeah this is damning. ##Vote: JarJarDrinks | ||
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On some level I want to lynch Holyflare, but the odds that he can prove it if he's a doctor mean we shouldn't lynch him now. Mocsta is town and the most active player in the thread. I will not be voting for him. I hope some of you can read Chezinu and Alakaslam cos I know for sure I can't. (With any degree of certainty, anyway.) | ||
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On November 25 2013 07:27 Bereft wrote: alright guys let's get our shit together. if you guys can't rally behind a mocsta or HF lynch, I think we should lynch chezinu if he doesn't come back into the thread with something useful. I'm not keen to lynch JJD or onegu over chezinu right now. You think the Jampidampi slot's a better lynch over the Rean one? | ||
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On November 24 2013 22:45 JarJarDrinks wrote: Because it looked like the lynch was a sure thing so I saw no need. When I saw cora unvote and it looked like there might be a mislynch, I was pissed and posted to show that. I just didn't have the time to post a whole lot. And why would I need to since I posted a whole ton of shit against rayn throughout the day? My opinion about the lynch should have been clear. "Rayn lynch looked like a sure thing" Bleh... this is slightly believable. I only got really concerned about whether we were going to reach majority in the last hour or so. "Posted a whole ton of shit against Rayn throughout the day" This is... sort of true and sort of not. The stuff which JJD posted about Rayn during the day was more along the lines of "shout at Rayn about his inconsistencies" rather than "convince anyone else that Rayn is scum": + Show Spoiler + On November 22 2013 00:39 JarJarDrinks wrote: So Rayn, Jampi is scummy because he didn't jump on a vote for you when you made yourself so lynchable. And Mocs is scummy because he did jump on a vote for you for that exact reason Am I getting that right??? On November 22 2013 01:13 JarJarDrinks wrote: Explain what I'm misinterpreting please On November 22 2013 01:35 JarJarDrinks wrote: Yeah I commented on how terrible the case was too. Let alone the best case in the game. ANd furthermore, how good of a case can it be if he now doesn't think aqua is scum anymore. On November 22 2013 02:02 JarJarDrinks wrote: Why even suggest aqua again? Just go ahead and say it: You'll vote for for anyone that keeps yourself or Rean from being lynched. On November 22 2013 04:28 JarJarDrinks wrote: What are you talking about? You were trying to imply that Moc asking this question: "Have you been mislynched before?" meant the same as: "Is this the first time you're being mislynched?" That is a total misrepresentation. etc. To emphasise my point: there is only a single instance of JJD talking to anyone but Rayn during this time period and I don't find it a very convincing effort to persuade Corazon: On November 22 2013 05:31 JarJarDrinks wrote: I wanted to lynch Rean. Rayn decided jump on the grenade. And now he pretty much wants to lynch ANYONE else. I think him "marytring" himself is bullshit. As evidenced by the fact that he only kept his vote on himself for a little bit and unvoted as soon as Onegu voted for mocsta so he could see if he could get people to rally behind that lynch. Even though he had just said 8 minutes prior "I actually wanna get lynched and i am willing to lynch myself" Now the question I have to ask myself is: "Could JJD, as town, see his play here as being pushing a Rayn lynch?". My answer is "somewhat unlikely, but not impossible". After all, he is posting about Rayn - my problem is that he's almost entirely talking TO Rayn. I now have to examine Onegu and decide whether the odds on him being town are better or worse than "somewhat unlikely, but not impossible". | ||
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On November 25 2013 08:24 Alakaslam wrote: Ok, just reading from the vote post, I can see who I like and who I don't particularly care for. But could someone help me here; Is jar jar drinks scummier than Mocsta or vice versa? Why? Should these wagons exist? Why or why not? I haven't got the full time period until lynch to be here and I kind of owe the first /in Mocsta is playing the towniest game of his life. JJD is possible but not certain scum in my book. | ||
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On November 25 2013 08:28 Alakaslam wrote: Ok. So you would prefer there wasn't a wagon on Mocsta XD, but I have a question for you that will seem useless but it's not. Have you seen "Lifeboat"? No I haven't. | ||
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Onegu played with a town Mocsta in at least the Game of Thrones (throws?) game, so I assume he has at least a passing familiarity with Mocsta's play. I haven't the patience to deal with each of Onegu's points so I will pick out the most egregrious failures to fairly portray Mocsta: + Show Spoiler + Onegu claims that Mocsta gave no reasons for wanting to lynch HF. Being worried by a lurker replacing out was his reason, and he said it in the very same sentence. The point about "Now before he even checks my facts, he gives big town points to bereft." is irrelevant and I would even think makes Mocsta town. Even on somebody he currently suspects, Mocsta is still keeping an eye out for things that would make someone towny. This is the mark of somebody who is actively trying to improve their reads. Oh yes this post, my favorite. JJD is still town. Bereft he doesnt know, but bereft did the same thing mocsta did the same thing with rany is scum, rayn is scum, its a policy lynch. And me ONEGU IS SCUM turned into onegu provided the missing piece on bereft but that is null because of formatting, into slight town read, with no explination at all... And then how in the hell did I ask him for forgivness? It hurts my head. Lynch mocsta please he is scum. The town read which Mocsta gave in this post was NOT TO ONEGU. It was a town read given to Bereft. Mocsta's language was unclear, but the context from the last sentence in the quote made it clear that Mocsta could not possibly be talking about Onegu: Bereft Yeah I'm a little concerned went into a big spiel to justify rayn lynch. Um not sorry about it. I'm not really sure the town motive to give that spiel as bereft wasn't under pressure to justify actions. I'm not sure if bereft is a townie that wanted to policy lynch rayn but doesn't want to admit. Or is scum hiding behind policy and again doesn't want to admit it. Inoe that onegu presented the quote where bereft thinks onegu case wasn't on me but Cora.. I have to think about it. Iverlall I would say that tell is null because that onegu case was so poorly formatted abd constructed it's message was never clear. Will give bereft benefit of the doubt and say slight town lean. If anything is not worth considering when people like holy abd onegu are alive If Onegu thought this was Mocsta giving him a townread, he's not reading Mocsta's posts seriously. Either he's scum, or we just plain can't afford to keep him. The point at which Mocsta gave Onegu a townread was when I seriously started considering that Onegu might be town, too; though I thought the Bereft case was wrong it did display effort which Onegu hadn't shown previously. I again agree with Mocsta that Holyflare is my "favourite" vote because his play is just so IDGAF, but he's just not the right choice for today because doctor claim. As a general rule Onegu complains a lot about Mocsta not justifing each of his reads in each of his lists. I don't think Mocsta needed to or even should have - if Mocsta talks about every justification for every read he has it'll take bloody forever and will result in him playing his cards earlier than he needs to. This case is so bloated with huge unnecessary quotes and plain not alignment-relative stuff it's ridiculous. And finally, Onegu is by his own admission not available for deadline. That combined with his play so far (I think his reads this game are frankly bad) convinces me of this: If Onegu is town and alive at LYLO or MYLO we are screwed. If he's town I want to get his mislynch out of the way now. If he's scum there's no harm in lynching him now. If we lynch someone other than Onegu and it's a mislynch our chances of victory become vanishingly small. I'm still willing to vote JJD because I think he's at least a decent chance of flipping scum, and I'll see if I can convince myself further about him. But for the moment: ##Unvote ##Vote: Onegu | ||
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We are currently presumably at 8 town - 3 scum. If we nolynch and scum gets two shots we're at 6-3... which still leaves us with the same single available mislynch we have today. Ordinarily a no-lynch would tell us nothing, but in this case it would really help with Holyflare. ...I'll consider it. | ||
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On November 25 2013 08:29 Holyflare wrote: Now aqua is doing the same thing? Is this game really that easy? @Holyflare: Corazon, Thrawn and myself have the most experience with Mocsta out of the players here, and we're all telling you he's town. We're also (with Mocsta) the four most active players in the thread. Are you seriously contending that three of us are scum? | ||
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On November 25 2013 09:17 sciberbia wrote: I don't agree with this logic for lynching Onegu. I think our priority has to be to not get into MYLO/LYLO at all. If we lynch Onegu and he flips town do you really think we still have a good chance at winning? Let's say scum get off two shots (not unlikely). It would then be 5-3. With 8 players left we'd need 5 votes. So basically we would need every townie to vote for a scum 3 days in a row. I don't care who's alive at LYLO I think we need to avoid this situation at all costs. I think Onegu's case on Mocsta looks Onegu look significantly better and Mocsta very slightly worse. Most of the points weren't alignment indicative, but Onegu clearly put a ton of time into it even when it's clear he may very well be lynched anyway. Also he has done a pretty good job convincing me that he may actually think Mocsta is scum, just by the way he takes so much issue with Mocsta's vote switches etc. I've played in a game town won from 4-3 LYLO before, because we eliminated the townies who wouldn't be able to work together first. But I see your point. Do you disagree with me that Onegu's cherrypicked Mocsta's posts to unfairly emphasise that Mocsta's reads change? | ||
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In reference to your first quote, I don't see how trying hard to analyse the thread can possibly have "no reason". As for the second, he's trying to give other people who may not be as familiar with certain player's metas an idea of said metas. It's not his most productive post, but come on; it's one post in a 14-page filter. They don't all have to be gold. As for the last one, Mocsta threatening people, calling them scum based on single posts, and temporarily flip-flopping around on reads is just his style. As town, he went from a town-read on me to threatening to vigilante-shoot me on the first night of TL Mafia LX based on some ridiculous interpretation of a single post I'd made 24 hours or more earlier. I'll try to find some more easily-read examples for you. | ||
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(This is the same problem I have with JarJar's posts re. the Rayn lynch, by the way.) That is the part of the case where Onegu is talking about what Bereft said about Onegu which partly explains it - but I don't think that Bereft's posts were particularly intended to be answered by Onegu. I could do with some comments on this observation (aka tell me if I'm full of shit, I'm starting to dig deep into the BS now). | ||
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Is it truly plausible that NONE of the initial five on Rayn (Mocsta, Thrawn, myself, Bereft and JJD) were scum? Not so much in the sense of "could a townie want to lynch Rayn" (because clearly we did) but more in the sense of "would scum be comfortable with none of them on the currently going wagon". I wanted to believe this was plausible because I don't like Rayn. But in hindsight I'm beginning to suspect it's not, and since I have a clear town read on everyone bar JJD on that list... | ||
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On November 25 2013 10:03 JarJarDrinks wrote: Yeah, my day 2 has not been good. I've already defended my weekend activity. But it's not just that. I don't like ANY of the cases I've seen. You say I've thrown suspicion on cora and and mocsta but haven't pushed the cases. I wasn't intending to throw suspicion, I was just trying to find scum because I don't have many scumreads right now. Which is why I want to vote for the Jampi or Rean slot. Preferably Rean. I don't have all that much on them but I already posted my case on Rean. We were all ready to vote him out yesterday when rayn blew up. Has anything changed? ##Vote: Alakaslam Explain why you don't like:
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On November 25 2013 10:10 Holyflare wrote: btw this guy is saying cora is town and me, onegu and people on mocsta wagon are priority pplz, yet he won't actively say it to anyone because he doesn't want to help I'm pretty sure "sighs" is sciberbia | ||
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On November 25 2013 10:11 cDgCorazon wrote: I could definitely see this being possible. Unless scum had an agenda to get Rayn lynched D1, I could see a scum hang back and looking at the situation to see how plausible a lynch would be before jumping on/off it. (Just like a certain person who I made a giant case on =P) The trouble is that Onegu is apparently just completely afk for large portions of the day so looking at when he happens to jump on or off stuff is of limited usefulness. | ||
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On November 25 2013 10:10 Holyflare wrote: btw this guy is saying cora is town and me, onegu and people on mocsta wagon are priority pplz, yet he won't actively say it to anyone because he doesn't want to help Also, what's your point? | ||
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I don't think throwing stuff like this is going to make Holyflare respond any better. /not-in-any-way-a-suspicion-of-cora-just-an-observation | ||
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On November 25 2013 10:06 Aquanim wrote: Explain why you don't like:
JJD are you working on this? I really need to see your thoughts. | ||
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On November 25 2013 10:31 sciberbia wrote: @Aquanim I honestly wouldn't consider this a tell. This line of thinking just requires too many assumptions to make analysis on. Even naming any 3 players in this game town I could probably only do with 70% confidence. I suppose that's fair from your perspective. I'm very, very sure about Mocsta, Thrawn and Bereft, personally. This thought process does not seem townie to me. He didn't like any of the cases in the thread, so therefore lynch a lurker? I dunno. I think the natural townie response when you don't like any of the current cases is to go find scum yourself. There is plenty to go on. Am I really asking too much for him to have one good scumread? This is why I want to see exactly why he doesn't "like ANY of the cases" he's seen. | ||
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On November 25 2013 10:34 Mocsta wrote: Ok Can anyone please look at the questions I proposed like one or two posts ago about jjd I actually don't have enough time to filter dive so can't verify. If those answers are no and yes, I will support a consolidated vote on JJD ok I'll get on it | ||
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On November 25 2013 09:52 Mocsta wrote: Regarding jarjar Last night I didn't read his day2 Does anyone know what his top scum reads are and why? Well he wants to lynch the Rean slot for the same reasons as yesterday. No consideration of the fact that with a replacement we may be able to read the slot better. Still waiting on his reasons why he doesn't want to lynch Onegu or any of the other wagons going today. Answer: We know who he wants to lynch but don't have any reasons which indicate he's actually thinking about it. Has he actually pushed anything, or has just gotten into dialogue with holyflare about claiming? Things JJD has talked about today: - holyflare claim - picked up some point I raised earlier about something corazon said, calls it a scumslip. I'd sketched this in already and then dropped it, no evidence of original thought from JJD here - defends himself to thrawn; doesn't say much useful but thrawn's case was not really the kind of thing which can be argued against in the first place (not because it's good, just because it's mostly interpretation and feelings) - a bit of suspicion thrown at Mocsta re. Mocsta's suspicions of him - defending himself now Answer: no real pushing. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: JarJarDrinks | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Onegu's fooled me before though. Which is why I need to think some more. | ||
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On November 25 2013 10:47 Mocsta wrote: Jjd even now shows no care. Just promises of activity. Does he truly read to you as town fighting for his life?? No he doesnt. But then again, neither did rayn. That being said, if I only lynch people who play scummier and show less will to live than Rayn did yesterday I'd never lynch anyone, so my vote stands. | ||
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gahhhh | ||
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Well if he has to leave he should leave his vote on the person who it currently looks like town is going to lynch. Which I think was JJD at the point he made that post. The random fluff looks bad and wishy-washy but it's Alakaslam so who knows. | ||
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On November 25 2013 11:32 Onegu wrote: This lynch is going to end badly, its my own damn fault, If I could push my scum reads becaus I myself are scummy, or say things clear enough where people will actually read the case. You think JarJar is town? Why? Even if it's PoE from your other scumreads there's got to be some reason why you think JJD is town. | ||
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Alakaslam/Rean... maybe. but I think giving alak some more time is necessary. | ||
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switch back | ||
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sorry jjd | ||
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On November 25 2013 12:05 cDgCorazon wrote: How many town flips does it take for people to listen to what i have to say? I listened to you. I was voting Onegu earlier. I changed my mind and decided JJD was scummier but I listened to your case. Even so, repeating yourself now changes nothing. This is the position we're in and now we do what we can to get out of it. | ||
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I'm going out for a while. See you all later. | ||
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peace out | ||
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"I know scum are always looking for who supports them, and who doesn't; but they typically evaluate all information (as they have the knowledge advantage). Whereas, this is written in a selfish/C.B. manner that I thinks aligns with town (i.e. blinkers are on)" I don't even know what you're talking about here. "Its obvious he is clearly evaluating his thread presence and monitoring how people respond to him based on thread presence (e.g sciberbia). Again, scum monitor this too; but I don't think they write about how every single person treats them." I don't see why scum wouldn't do this, especially if they feel like they're required to update the thread on what they think about everyone. "Look how he takes offense to Rean thinking Onegu should be flipped if Aqua is town. If Onegu was scum, I would expect a discredit here instead of observation." I wouldn't be suprised at a 'discredit' if he was scum but I don't think he would necessarily always do it if he was scum. Summary: I'm unconvinced and what's more I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. It might help if you rephrased your arguments. I don't know that all of the scum is in Holy/Chez/Alak but I think one has to be and likely two are. For the purpose of evaluating Onegu's alignment I intend to look at how much any of those three were pushing for a JJD lynch over Onegu, particularly during the time period(s) where many people were voting for Onegu. If they were all wasting their time with other irrelevant shit other than pushing JJD, as IIRC they generally were, then that would indicate to me that Onegu might well be town. | ||
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Did day 2 look like a 1-scum and 1-town wagon day, or a 2-town wagon day?" | ||
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On November 25 2013 16:06 thrawn2112 wrote: Chezinu, who is the dragon? Who is the sun? Is the sun Moc-star? that's an awful pun if so I got nothing re. the dragon. | ||
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On November 25 2013 16:18 Alakaslam wrote: Well first thing catching up on current events while I'm here before sleep. This crap is unnecessary, and especially since we didn't pay him enough credence (at least I didn't; I fess I didn't read his case through as I got notice I would have to leave and got in a rush) Telling each other off gets town nowhere. "Telling each other off" is what Corazon had been doing for the last page. And for a fair bit of this game too. Did you not notice that? | ||
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What do you think about jampi's play? I want to hear aqua talk about this as well. Well, he made absolutely no effort to steer the day 1 lynch. His fixation on that single post I made to him was dubious, I thought he was making a pretty big stretch to claim that I couldn't possibly make that post as town. (Not having an outside view of my play it's difficult for me to judge that, though.) Fixating on somebody slightly maligning your play is a typical scum move I think and I reckon that perfectly decribes Jampi's play here. He claimed he was willing to consolidate onto Rean, but never did - and didn't try actively to argue people back onto my wagon either. Some of his posts showed a fair bit of dubiousness about Rean: On November 21 2013 23:21 jampidampi wrote: How does admitting mistakes make someone town? You seem quite certain that he is in fact town. On November 21 2013 23:27 jampidampi wrote: Is there something else that makes you think Rean is town? Calling someone a misslynch is to me a clear indication that you though there was a high chance that he would flip town. but there was never any further pressure on that front. All in all it's pretty scummy. I don't have an especially high opinion of Jampi's town play so it's hard to rule it out... but I find it difficult to believe that he could think this was a productive way to spend his time as town. (also what Mocsta said, I think he's hit the nail on the head this time) The thread's moved on a bit so I'm not sure if you're still interested in this but what the hell. | ||
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Suppose I label the corners of a triangle in order of their acuteness. If I was to look upon you with the eyes of your vaunted chupazi, which corner would I see? | ||
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On November 25 2013 20:03 Chezinu wrote: The third triangle, which is totally unique? Good Morning everyone!! or rather is it night... That rather depends on your perspective. I have a question for you, Isunizehc. Is it your opinion that this game is composed entirely of the brown and its component colours, or that there might be other, darker shades exerting a corrupting influence? | ||
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Earlier in this game, the fate of Rayn fell from the heavens to the grave, precipitated by this post and those which came after. What do you think the attitude of the red was to the fate of Rayn? Jubilation? Direct support? Indifference? | ||
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What is your opinion of this case from Mocsta? | ||
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I didn't notice that at least two of the quote which Onegu claims illustrate Mocsta's changing opinion... are in fact quotes of me. Obviously my opinion is different to Mocsta's... (This may have been brought up already.) The problem with Onegu's cases is that they're so bloated that it's impossible to reply to them and dissect them without making a horrendously large post that nobody's going to read. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + These are just a few of mocstas scum hunting, yes this is null null apparently. moving on. We also keep getting post like this all through the game, mocsta really like trying to make friends with thrawn According to Corazon thrawn was buddying mocsta. In my opinion they both know the other's town and they're working together. Not seeing this PoV of Onegu at all. I also want to point out this post and a few more that follow it or come right before this post, this is important because this is one of the main reasons why he was fine to policy lynch rayn. Even in this post we have a good town atmosphere but he takes a dig at me WTF. If the atmosphere is so go why does he need to take a dig at me it just doesn't make sense, Im not the type of person to take the bait but if I was he could then say he was ok to policy lynch me because I attacked him. this is pretty rambling, but I think the point is that mocsta took a dig at onegu. This is what mocsta does. Deal with it. That whole thing about "scum slips" and whatever Poorly chosen words at best. Not scum indicative. Here he says Cora's case on Sciberia was bad, but he is town for it. Later he will say the exact opposite for voting Cora. yeah Onegu quoted me here lol, this wasn't mocsta's opinion at all Votes Aqua for Thrawns reason. Sure he gave his own reasons on why Aqua is scum go read them I quoted them, tell me if you think they are legit reasons or not. I thought this was believable from Mocsta at the time, being on the receiving end of that vote. That "quote of the day" thing is the kind of thing town Mocsta votes over. A few posts later from where he calls cora town for his bad case now he cant see a pro town reason for it. Again a quote from me rather than Mocsta Soft defends Rean here. Mocsta raised a quite valid point about my approach to pressuring Rean, not "soft defending" him at all. Mocsta wasn't questioning my read, he was questioning whether I should have let it lie longer in order to gather more evidence. Likes a post from Jamp. So???!??!? Here he unvotes Aqua because he likes how he didnt push me. But somehow he ignores the possibility that we could be scum together. Why because he knows we arent. This unvote reason it terrible. Actually if you read Mocsta's post he DOESN'T like how I didn't push you. Are you even reading Mocsta's posts? But here is also where it gets interesting, He gives town reads for Rayn, Bereft, , Aqua, me, and cora. His scum reads are Sciberia, Rean, and Jamp. Before this he has had rean as a town read, Sciberia as null, and Jamp as he liked his posts. The only reason he gives for these read changes are mine and he doesnt see me doing what I did as scum. And Aqua who he had as scum for a long time and had just unvoted. His reason? Open and Transparent I don't see why mocsta should justify each and every one of his read shifts. Hell, changing his mind about me probably implicitly changed his mind about rean... Suffice it to say his reads made sense to me at the time so I'm not worried. Still no reasons still no reason to post reasons This is the only reason he gives for his scum reads and atually read it. It is mostly meta, and promoting a negative thread attitude, but read his filter he isnt doing that at all, and it is subjective if he is or isnt any way not a reason to call someone scum. I don't see how being "subjective" means Mocsta can't think Sciberbia's scum for that reason. I think Mocsta hadn't fully understood Sciberbia's posting (reflected in his revision to this read later once he had a better idea) but revising his reads does not make mocsta scum. A few posts later his reads change once again. so? reads change. Here is where mocsta says he is ok with a HF lynch, but he gives no reason for it. He then votes rayn because rayn Martyred. HF had done basically nothing, there were no possible reasons other than "no posts" which is obvious. Vote for Rayn was entirely understandable. Now jamp is scum with rayn. And his reason was jamp is holding on to the aqua thing when he let something go before. I have no idea how a few posts before jamp wasmt in your scum reads to scum partners with rayn because he follows up on Aquanim. The reasons mocsta gives for people being scum juat arent real reasons. this one was more "calling jampi out for a scummy attitude" rather than "calling jampi scum" if you understand how mocsta rolls Rayn drops his vote on jamp, mocsta who then has a scum read on jamp and who thinks is scumates with rayn, defends him calling his meta the same as his town meta for tunneling, which is what mocsta called him scum for doing on Aqua. Yes he says hes not 100% certain and it is ok to defend your scum read if you dont believe the reason they are being attacked by someone else, but mocsta called him scum because he was tunneled on Aqua. He gives meta reasons why he could be town for the same thing mocsta called him scum for. Entirely consistent with my own read on jampi at the time He shows his lynch list here again. Rean we have no idea what, HF for no idea why, and Rayn. And I dont understand why he asks cora the whole thing about staying by his scum read or lynching for info Pretty sure I understood why he wanted Rean at the time, HF for lurking, and Rayn for obvious reasons This is telling, he is ok to lynch bereft this cycle if what I say is true. But more importantly look what he says to thrawn when thrawn talks about looking to see if it is a town rayn. He isnt set if rayn is town or scum, just asking him questions while thinking about motive, but rayn still needs lynched, this just isnt something a townie says. This was something at least two townies said. Now before he even checks my facts, he gives big town points to bereft. So? If bereft did something townie is there a reason why Mocsta shouldn't observe that? I dont understand the point of this post, obviously refuseing to believe doesnt make it true, I was sleeping. Amd I really dont like people calling out other people who cant be here around deadline, it happens deal with it. irrelevant to mocsta's alignment. This is where he digs up the bereft things but conviently leaves out the post that links this all together. And now since I am misrepresenting bereft I am scum. I think you were entirely misrepresenting Bereft since I think Bereft's town and that Mocsta's position was at least understandable. I think some quotes are missing from the case here but whatever. Here is where he calls for policy, the same thing I pointed out with bereft, you are gunho on rayn is scum rayn is scum vote the scum, then all of a sudden you hide behind policy? Why do you feel you need to do this? The reason to say when rayn flips town, see im not sorry it was policy. No. Nonononono. He asked SCIBERBIA to policy lynch Rayn. Sciberbia didn't think rayn was scum, so if scib was to vote rayn it would HAVE to be for policy. Nothing wrong with this at all. The part he fails to mention is his reads on those players change, and he never explains those reads. Reads DO change, and he's not obliged to explain all of them all of the time whenever he says them. Again I have to ask what's your point? More town reads, but now I am scum, and I fanned the flames. Now I wasnt around so what flames did I fan? I dont understand this. He is making shit up for me to look bad that is what is going on. I don't know what mocsta was going on about here but sometimes he does run off on silly tangents as town. More read changes this time me and HF are scum. No reason on HF other than in a previous post I cant believe HF believes what he is writeing. And he compares something rean did in this game, to something I did in a different game to make rean look scummy. How can he believe what he is writeing? Still no reason needed on HF, and drawing analogies is perfectly fine. Look he calls out HF here for being like rayn and saying scumslip. Its stupid play. I direct you to the first post I put in my meat and potatoes part and open the spoiler and what do you see? Thats right mocsta saying cora and scib scumslipped. And rayn flipped town so calling out HF for this is so scummy, maybe he forgot he did it or thought people wouldnt see because hespoiled it, but I saw, I found it. this is just bullshit. 1) Mocsta forgot he did it before because it was UNIMPORTANT 2) rayn is hardly a model town player, playing like him is in fact stupid as town and desirable as scum 3) ..this is just ridiculous I'm out of words Oh yes this post, my favorite. JJD is still town. Bereft he doesnt know, but bereft did the same thing mocsta did the same thing with rany is scum, rayn is scum, its a policy lynch. And me ONEGU IS SCUM turned into onegu provided the missing piece on bereft but that is null because of formatting, into slight town read, with no explination at all... And then how in the hell did I ask him for forgivness? It hurts my head. Lynch mocsta please he is scum. Mocsta didn't give a town read on onegu in this post at all. Onegu again didn't understand Mocsta's post. (the grammar was a little frayed so a failure to understand is forgivable) Now he votes Jamp who was out of his scum team only a few posts ago, and his reasoning? There are scum in the actives but they can be figured out, and his tunnel on aqua, but when rayn voted him he provided meta defense this is town meta and that that wasnt enough to warrwnt a vote. jampidampi vote is fine, pressure Now he says he didnt think rayn was scum it was all policy, nope thats a lie called him scum all the way up then last few minutes said policy. doesn't actually contradict in any way the words mocsta used Please show me these reasons and the numerous times please can't be assed researching this Now I am full town yay!!! what's your point No more Jamp, no to take sciberia from his town pile into his vote. And check out these awesome reasons bad case (subjective) defended the guy who flipped town, and defending the person his scum read made a case on. Such scummy reasons not sure why Im not voteing for scib. again pressure, again fine Omg he goes from sciberia who was a town read as his vote, to JJD who was a town read and check out these reasons he delurked and thats it. Also now I went from town to he could vote me, and rean still not sure why he wants to vote rean since day 1... he's changing his mind in similar ways to what I was thinking day 2, not scummy Two posts later, HF is the best lych again what I was thinking Now he believes the doc claim.... AGAIN what I was thinking. exactly, in fact Makes a case on JJD and then this. suspicion of JJD was justified tl;dr Onegu has nothing on Mocsta and apparently didn't even read some of the posts he quoted. Extremely confirmation-biased. That being said I can see how Onegu might think some of this considering he wasn't in the thread at the time. It's much easier to read Mocsta when you're watching his play evolve with the thread, rather than looking at it afterwards. An observation of Mocsta's playstyle: Mocsta tends to post his knee-jerk reactions to the thread a lot. These are not necessarily consistent with his overall reads; but if he sees a scummy person post a towny post or a towny person post a scummy post Mocsta will typically call him out. Therefore, while when you look back at his filter it may appear somewhat contradictory, my feeling of what Mocsta's positions have actually been throughout this game (as opposed to trying to piece his positions together in retrospect) give me a town read on him. There Onegu, I read your case and I'm not impressed. (okay I see the mention of the quotes of me at the end, I remember seeing them mentioned at some point. Still... blleeeggg. Can you please work on consolidating your cases in the future) | ||
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Who to lynch tomorrow? My preference is Chezinu or Onegu. I'm pretty sure both of them are in the scumteam along with one of Holyflare/Alakaslam. The case on Jampidampi by Mocsta and the "scumslip" picked up by Thrawn is probably as close to a read on Chezinu as we're going to get, especially if Thrawn dies (since I'm pretty sure none of the rest of us have much prior experience with Chez). May as well flip that coin sooner rather than later. As for Onegu, this last tossup with Corazon has finally broken my credulity in just how few damns Onegu gives about this game. I honestly don't think there's any way he can have thought those two posts by Corazon were at the 2-hour mark if he's seriously analysing this game. His cases on Bereft and Mocsta could easily have been written by scum just pulling out post after post after post from their filters and saying the first damning-sounding thing which comes to mind. And while I was fooled by Onegu's indignation yesterday, I've been fooled by Onegu playing dumb before (see Newbie 43). I don't intend to let it happen again. You can lynch Onegu first to satisfy Corazon, if you like. As for Holyflare: - I have never seen him angry as town, but that's the vibe I'm getting here - I have never seen him this disinterested as town. Read page 4 of his filter, compare it to any town game he's played in the past, and tell me that this is a town Holyflare who is genuinely interested in pushing a lynch - He could claim to save somebody who aren't the two who scum kills. In that case, use your judgement. - Sure he hasn't played like this as scum before, but there's no reason to change his town meta into this and plenty of reason to change his scum meta (replaced into a scum team with lurkers, just plain doesn't want to even try to contribute) A quick aside re. Holyflare + Show Spoiler + If there's a save tonight obviously don't lynch Holy tomorrow, but still keep him on your radar. His play so far this game has been COMPLETELY unlike his town play, and maybe this is the scum team trying to protect Holy. It would explain their motive for having him claim in the first place. It does give us another mislynch so I think it would be poor play, but my opinion is hardly going to stop them... maybe, MAYBE he'll get off his ass and contribute now that the weekend's over. But I think he's just scum. (Having difficulty reconciling that with the doctor claim, but... frankly that doctor claim was a f***ing awful idea whatever his alignment, so I guess it being risky as scum isn't scum-indiciative.) Alakaslam I still gotta think about. If I die you're probably better off considering what he posts tomorrow rather than whatever thoughts I have now anyway. In the light of this claim I have no idea who scum will shoot. If they shoot me, good luck - you're gonna need it. (tl;dr I agree with sciberbia and mocsta, {Holyflare // Rean, Chezinu (jampi), Onegu}) Last-minute additions: Corazon's cop claim... gah. I don't see the point if he's scum. But damn it why did you claim so long before deadline? If the scum have a framer we could be led entirely up the garden path. I hope he's planning to check someone who isn't Onegu and was just claiming that to lead scum astray. I'd far prefer to see a check on Chezinu or even Holyflare than Onegu. Given how hard Corazon bashed on Holy for his claim I have hopes that Corazon has plans he hasn't revealed yet. | ||
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stop talking shit | ||
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Then again, looking at the trend in his profile if he survives N2 he's probably scum | ||
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On December 03 2013 12:20 cDgCorazon wrote: This is still a point and this needs to be brought up again. This town sheeped way too much and didn't even listen to a good argument. No one read this case until I asked them too. No one tried to poke holes in it. They all just nodded and said we could lynch Onegu until thrawn said "JJD is scum lynch him" and everyone bows down to him and says "OMG THRAWN U R THE GREATEST MAFIA PLAYER EVAR OFC WE WILL LYNCH JJD" ...Corazon, what you've said might be true of the other players in this thread, I don't know what they did. I can only speak for myself. I read your Onegu case. I went and read Onegu's posts for myself. I went and read JarJar's posts for myself. Then I decided that JJD was the lynch more likely to flip scum. As it turns out, neither of them would have done so. I appreciate the effort you put into your case on Onegu, but putting effort in doesn't automatically make you right. Nor does it mean everyone should automatically sheep whoever puts the most effort into their cases (if that was the case, we'd have sheeped Onegu's cases. Can't say I agreed with them either, but there was an assload of effort involved there.) To play this game you have to understand that other people do not think the same way as you and may disagree with you, even if they do not choose to or are unable to post exactly why they disagree with you. EDIT: To be clear, I didn't sheep Thrawn - I made my own judgement. Just as I made my own judgement about your case. | ||
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On December 03 2013 13:46 yamato77 wrote: ... Thread atmosphere is a culmination of every player's tone, however, and I do think it takes someone to mediate between feuding players to keep the game from degenerating. My criticism here is that no one seems to do this anymore, they just let two players argue incessantly. Hapa is a great town player in this regard, he is quick to both de-tunnel himself in those situations if he is arguing, and to step in if two others are destroying the thread. Someone has to mitigate the negativity. I tried that at a couple of points IIRC (EDIT: mostly d2 so I suppose you wouldn't have seen it) but it didn't improve much. Whether that's because I don't have the strength of personality of Hapa or because the feuding of townies these days is far more implacable... who knows? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + This section was written D3 so there are some flips I haven't seen yet. Just FYI. I saw a couple of people complaining/ranting this game that nobody read their cases. (Particularly thinking Cora, Onegu and Rayn here, though there may be others). I have a couple of things to say to you all. 1) I read everything you wrote at least once. I read everything at least once and I respond to what I choose to respond to, which is generally most of it eventually. Can any of you say you seriously evaluated Rayn's cases which he begged us to read D1 and posted your conclusions in the thread? 'cos I can. Whatever you may think my opinion of you is, know that I do read what you write. 2) Just because you put effort into your cases doesn't mean I'm obliged to agree with you. And it doesn't mean that, even if you were right about someone's alignment, you made a case which proved it. Getting angry at me because you put effort in and I still don't agree with you solves nothing. Try to understand what my reservations are, and convince me. 3) If I have to spend as much time reading your case as you spent writing it to understand it, or even a significant fraction as long, your case needs to be refined more. Remember, I have to read everybody's cases AND write my own. Expecting me to spend as much time trying to understand your contribution as you spent on your contribution is not a reasonable expectation of me. I've waited to join a game of mafia until I had quite a lot of time to spend on it, but I don't have THAT much time. I do have some advice for writing cases. I'm particularly thinking of Onegu's cases here since he particularly said it was a weakness of his (IIRC) but he's not the only one who could write more clearly. 1) Lead with a point indicating scum mentality, and then justify it.. When I read a "stream-of-consciousness" post or a list of posts ordered chronologically it is very difficult to follow your arguments. If you separate your quotes into sections based on what point you're proving with them it will help a lot. 2) Don't just tell me what they posted. I have already read the thread and I know (more or less) how the opinion of each player evolved in the game. You will probably need to quote them somewhat to justify your opinion, but don't quote them just for the sake of it. I want to see justified conclusions not rambling thoughts. 3) Less is more. The longer your post is, the harder it is to navigate and read. Two ways of dealing with this are: a) Take out the less conclusive stuff. I'm not interested in posts which are mostly null. b) Put quotes in spoilers. Put sections in spoilers. Separating sections into spoilers does wonders for the readability of a post. Some other comments for particular players: Thrawn, Sciberbia I doubt I have much constructive I can say to either of you since you're both considerably more seasoned players than I. It was a pleasure to play with you both, though. Chezinu ? Earned yourself a nightkill though so well played on that basis. Mocsta Likewise, a pleasure. This was the towniest game I've ever seen you play (not entirely sure why I think that, but whatever). I still saw some questionable single-post reads and leaps of logic from you BUT you seemed to mostly identify the dodgy ones and filter them out of your eventual solid reads, which I was very happy to see. I think Thrawn's answered your questions about your play more effectively than I could, so I'll leave that to him. Bereft You were clearly town and didn't rely on your doctor role as a crutch. There are probably improvements you could make to your play but I can't easily come up with any that haven't been mentioned already. JarJarDrinks Your lynch was unfortunate, but at that point in the game a townie was almost certainly going to get lynched; to lynch scum we'd have had to find Sciberbia (a comparatively active player) and lynch him, lynch an uncounterclaimed doctor in Holyflare, or lynch a slot which hadn't posted for 48+ hours. Your number came up on the dice rather than Onegu's. Sorry. Onegu I think part of the reason you get mislynched often as town (or at least, the reason I regarded you as at least possible scum this game) is that your arguments are, for lack of a better word, mechanical. That isn't a criticism of your play. What I'm trying to say is that I feel like you follow a fairly rigid process when making your reads and arguments, and it's a process which you could emulate quite closely as scum. I wouldn't be suprised to see you produce umpteen pages of notes as scum. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it is how I percieve your play. As for improving your reads... I can tell you one or two things I think you're doing wrong but I'm not sure how constructive it'll be. Anyway. My feeling when I read your cases (particularly the one on Mocsta) was that you were looking through his filter and coming up with a plausible scum motivation for all of them. The step which I think was missing is to look at the posts and think "Is there a plausible town motivation as well?". You might also look at the stuff on case-writing above, though I think you already did a fair bit of that in the last case you posted (on Corazon?). Holyflare, Alakaslam Not having actually played scum I won't presume to offer you advice. Well played though. I think I've already said everything I need to to Corazon and Rayn. | ||
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On December 03 2013 15:34 Holyflare wrote: As far as the game itself, I can't really say anything other than the arguments ruined it for you. I was allowed to play scummy as hell and get away with it because so much attention was drawn away from me it was unreal. My claim allowed things like this to occur: To be honest, rean's slot being AFK for almost all of d2 kind of made a mess of my plans for the day. Though I agree d2 could have gone better. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Particularly I'm thinking of wanting to lynch Kickstart over Munk-E in Newbie XXXI and TestSubject over Glurio in TL Mafia LX, if anyone's interested. However, in neither of those cases did I get mad, despite my inclination to do so. Why? Because it wouldn't make anyone more interested in talking to me, and it wouldn't make the game any more fun for anyone else. Other approaches I've used in the past which you might want to keep in mind are:
Your reasons for behaving as you did in this game explain your actions to me. I now have a better understanding of why you did what you did. However, they do not justify your actions, and furthermore didn't help you either win the game or have fun playing it. Holding the game to ransom, making the game unfun for everybody, is simply unjustifiable - which is why the postgame comments have been coming down on you so hard. Blaming Onegu for your read on him isn't exactly sportsmanlike either - it's a kind of justifiable thing to say about a lurker who puts no effort in, but Onegu clearly gave some kind of a damn about this game regardless of his alignment. He played to his wincon as best he knew how, and that is all I ask of anyone. I offer this to you as reasonable feedback on your play, trying to understand your motivations as best I can. I don't need you to reply - either you take my feedback on board, or you don't. | ||
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Now look I agree that scum have no reason to want themselves lynched - but townies shouldn't either. Furthermore, since martyring is a comparatively easy thing to emulate as scum, but scum have "no reason to do it", that in as of itself makes it something scum might choose to do. Especially if we start giving out townreads for it. If you find coming under suspicion so unpleasant that you just want to get lynched to get away from it (and to be able to say "I told you so" to whoever suspected you) then perhaps Mafia is not the game for you. (JarJar's position was quite awkward since I believe he wasn't around for most of D2 to defend himself. Therefore, I don't blame him - but even if his absense wasn't his fault, that didn't help us stop a mislynch.) | ||
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On December 03 2013 16:54 yamato77 wrote: thrawn - obviously town, a little backseat for my tastes. You have good reads in general, and know how to play town, you just don't have that leader-y quality that top tier townies do. That being said, an entire town of leaders might not accomplish a whole lot, so I don't think this would be necessarily a bad thing. @Onegu: besides what I've said already I don't really have any general advice for you, but if you have specific questions I (and/or other people) can try to answer them. | ||
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I don't blame you, it's entirely understandable. | ||
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On December 04 2013 00:11 Mocsta wrote: Seeing that last post of Onegu again. I would love to know in general why all the town thought it was scummy to have a post restriction and then remove it. Lol.. like its null .. but if you really wanted to stretch the alignment-boundaries, its definitely townier to remove it. Scum should be happy to use it as a fallback to lurking. After your first couple of posts in quick succession it was an object of some amusement to me to guess how soon you were going to ditch the idea... but I basically ignored it in terms of your alignment. | ||
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