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Bereft filtered Onegu because he was asked to by Corazon:

In this same post Rayn claims that Bereft "never even filtered Onegu after promising to do so"... but Bereft did. Rayn must just have been not even thinking about his argument or something. It wasn't Bereft's immediately next post after promising to do so, but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation of Bereft.
Bereft doesn't make some wallpost on me, that's true, but if Bereft's read of me has changed I can see why a town Bereft wouldn't bother to comment on my filter and conclude "I dunno, still need to think about it guys". Making a post like that would be a waste of time and I almost think better of Bereft for not doing it.

There's also the 'scumslip' where Bereft said 'mislynch' but that's a typo regardless of Bereft's alignment.

Well for starters the "full case" never evenutated. Moving on.

1) Rayn claims Mocsta is being "conservative and nice", even towards Rayn himself. I fail to see any particular scum motivation behind being nice as such. Mocsta has been effectively pushing his reads without being obnoxious and that's all I require.

2) Mocsta apparently puts on tunnel glasses when Rayn shits up the thread. I consider this entirely understandable from a town Mocsta - in fact I did it to some extent myself. The "more later" also never eventuated I don't believe.

3) and 6) So Mocsta "doesn't consider any motives besides scum-motives" and yet is "willing to reconsider". Yeah... no.

4) can't see any reason why mocsta "should know better"

5) I've already talked about this alleged "scumslip" I believe. Rayn's claim that it was a scumslip was utter rubbish.

7) I don't see why calming down and being willing to discuss things is scum-motivated.

1) is demonstrably incorrect. Just read JJD's filter.

2) There's an element of truth to this in that JJD is not constantly putting his point of view forward. However, once he'd said everything there was to say about Rean that hadn't been said already, he moved to asking people why they weren't voting Rean and thus pressuring them to do so. Entirely acceptable town play.

3) also demonstrably incorrect

4) So JJD is pursuing Corazon and Rean at the same time. Just because he talks to Corazon more doesn't mean Corazon has to be his bigger scumread - Corazon's been in the thread more than Rean, so this is entirely what I would expect.

5) I don't even know what this means quite, but I think it's entirely believable that JJD posted in the way he did as town

6) "He has a vote on a scumread and when he gets a bigger scumread he moves his vote" is not equal to "not scumhunting". I see JJD asking questions about things he doesn't understand in others' play and pressuring his reads, which seems ok to me.

Some representative votecounts:
+ Show Spoiler +
I doubt all the scum are either on or off the Rayn wagon at the end on general principles - It's a town lynch so they don't need to commit exceptionally hard either way. If I was scum, Rayn would hardly be a priority target for me, I'd want him alive as long as possible to shit up the thread. If I had to guess, I'd say two scum off the wagon - {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon, Onegu} and one on it {everyone else}.
+ Show Spoiler +
If there's scum on the Rayn wagon my first guess (based on lynch-related material) would be Holyflare simply due to his repeated insistence that the lynch wasn't his fault. Bereft and JJD are outside chances. I doubt Thrawn, Mocsta and Sciberbia are scum. The thought process of all five of these latter made sense (Sciberbia's position on Rayn was understandable and well reasoned though I disagreed at the time, the others policy lynched or had reasons to think Rayn was scum in various degrees). Holy didn't justify his position nearly as well, basically just called us all stupid.

Similarly, I would guess that there was at least one scum on my wagon earlier in the day, though probably not all of them either. Since I'm pretty confident in Thrawn and Mocsta being town, that leaves {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon}. Hey, they're pretty much the same names - fancy that.

It's harder to draw any conclusions about the Rean wagon since I don't know his alignment. However, I do like the names on his wagon (myself, Mocsta, JJD, Bereft, Rayn at some point, and eventually Thrawn).

The hypothesis that Rean is scum and that thus zero or at most one scum didn't vote for him while there was stil a wagon on myself on offer is not contradicted by the votes on him, though this obviously isn't conclusive proof he's scum
.
If Rean flips town in the future I'll have to reassess my reads on the people in this list, though I think it's not impossible that all the votes on him could still be by townies. For instance, if scum were already committed to voting for me or for wherever else they've parked their vote (or in the case of Holyflare not even in the game yet). Or if they were mostly AFK during that phase of the game.

His contributions have been decidedly lacklustre so far. He's been harping on about that single post of mine as pretty much his entire scumhunting content. The question I'm having difficulty answering is "Is this all Jampidampi is capable of as town?". If this was, say, Mocsta I'd lynch them out of hand, but this is kind of believable from a town Jampidampi.

It's difficult for me to determine from my perspective whether he could reasonably believe I haven't answered his point about that post already. I'd appreciate anyone with an outside view weighing in with their perspective on this.

For the record his argument is here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582&currentpage=34#676

to which my reply is:
How is observing that a player hasn't answered a question scummy? You can claim that my motivation was to "throw dirt on" Jampidampi, but that's only a single possible explanation for that post. Another one (and the correct one) is that I thought Jampidampi needed more incentive to answer the question and to offer more constructive opinions.

I think I mentioned at some point during day 1 that this kind of paranoia about people "throwing dirt on me, oh teh noes" is somewhat more characteristic of town than scum. That does not, however, mean that I think a scum player *couldn't* pretend to be paranoid in that way. The fact of the matter is that Jampidampi's kept repeating that single, crappy point about me while largely ignoring the rest of my filter and saying as little as possible about anything else in the thread. If he's town I hope he picks up his play, otherwise we may just have to lynch him and pray he's not playing this badly as a townie.

Reading Onegu is just damn hard because I don't think he's had enough time to read and evaluate the thread entirely and, worse, I don't know what parts he's read and which he hasn't. The go he had at Mocsta at the start wouldn't be believable if I thought Onegu had the time to make an indepth analysis of the thread, but I don't think that so :/

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582&currentpage=38#756
This post is kind of good in that Onegu's shown what he thinks of everyone, though I am finding it difficult to read since it's more a list of disjointed thoughts than any illustration of overall trends (which I would put more weight onto).

Not much has changed since the wagon on Rean in mid D1. He says he's not been posting because he has a headache - presumably true but that hardly makes him look better even so.

Rean's early game play strikes me as being very unwilling to share his thoughts. He doesn't offer any original observations on his own, and when he is asked for observations he gives vague, one-line responses; hell, the first time he was asked about Mocsta he dodged making any statements about Mocsta's alignment, and was still exceedingly vague when I asked him directly about Mocsta's alignment.

Rean has generally avoided giving definite points of view on anything all game - in fact the only instance of a definite read and opinion he gives is on me when he votes for me, which was 1) a safe opinion to hold at the time and 2) given the vague pokes he's made at me previously he kind of had to back them up with a vote or he'd have looked ridiculously tentative. Also his read was pretty rubbish, most everybody else in the thread eventually accepted my explanation of "pushing a wagon alternate to Corazon's" but Rean stubbornly claims that I can't have wanted to do that as a townie. There's a great deal of stubbornness about Rean's read on me which just doesn't match with his non-committal approach to all his other reads.

His point of view about the Onegu wagon was "Onegu's definitely scummy but I don't like that it's taking attention away from the Aquanim wagon". An opinion like this isn't individually damning, but it continues the trend of non-committal play and reluctance to express opinions apart from the "safe" vote on me.

I'm pretty sure Rayn's only argument as to why Rean was town is the following:

Bah, mostly. My gut read is very conflicted on Corazon.

Things I like about Corazon:
- The no-lynch vote. He must have known how bad this would make him look, and did it anyway.
- He's taking some responsibility for his actions (this is mostly a gut read on my part):
[QUOTE]On November 21 2013 15:16 cDgCorazon wrote:
[QUOTE]On November 21 2013 14:55 Mocsta wrote:
Corazon
Regarding why you did not vote Sciberbia

You stated that: early votes dont get traction so whats the point.

If that is the case, why did you ask Sciberbia to put his vote where his mouth is?
Cause I'm dumb and don't remember what I say before contradicting myself.
[QUOTE]On November 22 2013 12:20 cDgCorazon wrote:
...
I was transparent with my stance on Rayn and my decision to no-lynch. Onegu was very shady about it and I think it's because he is hiding the fact that he is scum.[/QUOTE]

Things I don't like about Corazon:
- The no-lynch vote, especially after sheeping onto the Rayn wagon with some shitty excuse (unrelated to Rayn being scum) earlier. Earlier Rayn was being too disruptive and had to go, and a little while before the lynch he's now certainly town and his disruptions are no longer worth voting off? Even at risk of no-lynching, which Corazon has to know is an utterly awful idea. I'd like to think that if his vote had been 100% necessary to a flip he'd have moved it back, but I just don't know.
- His play at the start of the day. I still don't see what the point of going after Sciberbia like that was.
- His antangonism towards Mocsta and Thrawn. Considering he isn't planning on lynching them any time soon this just seems like an excuse for activity.
- He's focused in on Onegu something chronic. Isn't considering Jampidampi, Rean, etc. as possible lynches at all.

There were one or two sketchy things about LoneMeow's contributions in this slot which I won't go over again.

Holyflare hasn't had time to contribute much so far. Can't say I'm impressed much with what he has contributed, though.

Sure he consolidated onto Rayn at the end, but only while shouting about how it wasn't his fault that Rayn was going to flip green. I don't consider that he did enough work pushing an alternate wagon.

I'm finding Holyflare's insistence that a lot of scum were on Rayn's wagon... disturbing, considering how greatly that opinion differs from my own. If Holyflare's scum, and most of the scumteam is not on the Rayn wagon (as I suspect), he obviously has a vested interest in pushing this point of view. I don't think he's incapable of thinking this as town, but if he continues to push this point without considering other facts, my read on him will only become scummier.

Bereft filtered Onegu because he was asked to by Corazon:

In this same post Rayn claims that Bereft "never even filtered Onegu after promising to do so"... but Bereft did. Rayn must just have been not even thinking about his argument or something. It wasn't Bereft's immediately next post after promising to do so, but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation of Bereft.
Bereft doesn't make some wallpost on me, that's true, but if Bereft's read of me has changed I can see why a town Bereft wouldn't bother to comment on my filter and conclude "I dunno, still need to think about it guys". Making a post like that would be a waste of time and I almost think better of Bereft for not doing it.

There's also the 'scumslip' where Bereft said 'mislynch' but that's a typo regardless of Bereft's alignment.

Well for starters the "full case" never evenutated. Moving on.

1) Rayn claims Mocsta is being "conservative and nice", even towards Rayn himself. I fail to see any particular scum motivation behind being nice as such. Mocsta has been effectively pushing his reads without being obnoxious and that's all I require.

2) Mocsta apparently puts on tunnel glasses when Rayn shits up the thread. I consider this entirely understandable from a town Mocsta - in fact I did it to some extent myself. The "more later" also never eventuated I don't believe.

3) and 6) So Mocsta "doesn't consider any motives besides scum-motives" and yet is "willing to reconsider". Yeah... no.

4) can't see any reason why mocsta "should know better"

5) I've already talked about this alleged "scumslip" I believe. Rayn's claim that it was a scumslip was utter rubbish.

7) I don't see why calming down and being willing to discuss things is scum-motivated.

1) is demonstrably incorrect. Just read JJD's filter.

2) There's an element of truth to this in that JJD is not constantly putting his point of view forward. However, once he'd said everything there was to say about Rean that hadn't been said already, he moved to asking people why they weren't voting Rean and thus pressuring them to do so. Entirely acceptable town play.

3) also demonstrably incorrect

4) So JJD is pursuing Corazon and Rean at the same time. Just because he talks to Corazon more doesn't mean Corazon has to be his bigger scumread - Corazon's been in the thread more than Rean, so this is entirely what I would expect.

5) I don't even know what this means quite, but I think it's entirely believable that JJD posted in the way he did as town

6) "He has a vote on a scumread and when he gets a bigger scumread he moves his vote" is not equal to "not scumhunting". I see JJD asking questions about things he doesn't understand in others' play and pressuring his reads, which seems ok to me.

Some representative votecounts:
+ Show Spoiler +
I doubt all the scum are either on or off the Rayn wagon at the end on general principles - It's a town lynch so they don't need to commit exceptionally hard either way. If I was scum, Rayn would hardly be a priority target for me, I'd want him alive as long as possible to shit up the thread. If I had to guess, I'd say two scum off the wagon - {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon, Onegu} and one on it {everyone else}.
+ Show Spoiler +
If there's scum on the Rayn wagon my first guess (based on lynch-related material) would be Holyflare simply due to his repeated insistence that the lynch wasn't his fault. Bereft and JJD are outside chances. I doubt Thrawn, Mocsta and Sciberbia are scum. The thought process of all five of these latter made sense (Sciberbia's position on Rayn was understandable and well reasoned though I disagreed at the time, the others policy lynched or had reasons to think Rayn was scum in various degrees). Holy didn't justify his position nearly as well, basically just called us all stupid.

Similarly, I would guess that there was at least one scum on my wagon earlier in the day, though probably not all of them either. Since I'm pretty confident in Thrawn and Mocsta being town, that leaves {Jampidampi, Rean, Corazon}. Hey, they're pretty much the same names - fancy that.

It's harder to draw any conclusions about the Rean wagon since I don't know his alignment. However, I do like the names on his wagon (myself, Mocsta, JJD, Bereft, Rayn at some point, and eventually Thrawn).

The hypothesis that Rean is scum and that thus zero or at most one scum didn't vote for him while there was stil a wagon on myself on offer is not contradicted by the votes on him, though this obviously isn't conclusive proof he's scum
.
If Rean flips town in the future I'll have to reassess my reads on the people in this list, though I think it's not impossible that all the votes on him could still be by townies. For instance, if scum were already committed to voting for me or for wherever else they've parked their vote (or in the case of Holyflare not even in the game yet). Or if they were mostly AFK during that phase of the game.

His contributions have been decidedly lacklustre so far. He's been harping on about that single post of mine as pretty much his entire scumhunting content. The question I'm having difficulty answering is "Is this all Jampidampi is capable of as town?". If this was, say, Mocsta I'd lynch them out of hand, but this is kind of believable from a town Jampidampi.

It's difficult for me to determine from my perspective whether he could reasonably believe I haven't answered his point about that post already. I'd appreciate anyone with an outside view weighing in with their perspective on this.

For the record his argument is here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582&currentpage=34#676

to which my reply is:
How is observing that a player hasn't answered a question scummy? You can claim that my motivation was to "throw dirt on" Jampidampi, but that's only a single possible explanation for that post. Another one (and the correct one) is that I thought Jampidampi needed more incentive to answer the question and to offer more constructive opinions.

I think I mentioned at some point during day 1 that this kind of paranoia about people "throwing dirt on me, oh teh noes" is somewhat more characteristic of town than scum. That does not, however, mean that I think a scum player *couldn't* pretend to be paranoid in that way. The fact of the matter is that Jampidampi's kept repeating that single, crappy point about me while largely ignoring the rest of my filter and saying as little as possible about anything else in the thread. If he's town I hope he picks up his play, otherwise we may just have to lynch him and pray he's not playing this badly as a townie.

Reading Onegu is just damn hard because I don't think he's had enough time to read and evaluate the thread entirely and, worse, I don't know what parts he's read and which he hasn't. The go he had at Mocsta at the start wouldn't be believable if I thought Onegu had the time to make an indepth analysis of the thread, but I don't think that so :/

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582&currentpage=38#756
This post is kind of good in that Onegu's shown what he thinks of everyone, though I am finding it difficult to read since it's more a list of disjointed thoughts than any illustration of overall trends (which I would put more weight onto).


I think he's completely wrong on Mocsta and Bereft though. I'll wait and see what material he brings to these cases and see what I think of them.

Not much has changed since the wagon on Rean in mid D1. He says he's not been posting because he has a headache - presumably true but that hardly makes him look better even so.

Rean's early game play strikes me as being very unwilling to share his thoughts. He doesn't offer any original observations on his own, and when he is asked for observations he gives vague, one-line responses; hell, the first time he was asked about Mocsta he dodged making any statements about Mocsta's alignment, and was still exceedingly vague when I asked him directly about Mocsta's alignment.

Rean has generally avoided giving definite points of view on anything all game - in fact the only instance of a definite read and opinion he gives is on me when he votes for me, which was 1) a safe opinion to hold at the time and 2) given the vague pokes he's made at me previously he kind of had to back them up with a vote or he'd have looked ridiculously tentative. Also his read was pretty rubbish, most everybody else in the thread eventually accepted my explanation of "pushing a wagon alternate to Corazon's" but Rean stubbornly claims that I can't have wanted to do that as a townie. There's a great deal of stubbornness about Rean's read on me which just doesn't match with his non-committal approach to all his other reads.

His point of view about the Onegu wagon was "Onegu's definitely scummy but I don't like that it's taking attention away from the Aquanim wagon". An opinion like this isn't individually damning, but it continues the trend of non-committal play and reluctance to express opinions apart from the "safe" vote on me.

I'm pretty sure Rayn's only argument as to why Rean was town is the following:


"Admitting he made a mistake" is hardly grounds for a serious townread on Rean. In fact, even if it was I can't see much in Rean's filter I'd describe this way - certainly less than I would find in my own. I admit that I've worded things poorly quite often. Honestly I get the feeling Rayn was mostly making this argument because he was butthurt that my lynch seemed to be evaporating. Suffice it to say that there's no love lost between Rayn and myself...

Maybe Rayn was referring to this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435582&currentpage=20#387
but I would describe this myself as "no no Rayn we're saying the same thing link hands with me so we can lynch aqua plz" rather than "whoops I fucked up this was what I meant to say".

I don't think Rean has posted at all N1 so there's that too.

Basically, I see nothing redeeming in Rean's filter at all.

Bah, mostly. My gut read is very conflicted on Corazon.

Things I like about Corazon:
- The no-lynch vote. He must have known how bad this would make him look, and did it anyway.
- He's taking some responsibility for his actions (this is mostly a gut read on my part):



Things I don't like about Corazon:
- The no-lynch vote, especially after sheeping onto the Rayn wagon with some shitty excuse (unrelated to Rayn being scum) earlier. Earlier Rayn was being too disruptive and had to go, and a little while before the lynch he's now certainly town and his disruptions are no longer worth voting off? Even at risk of no-lynching, which Corazon has to know is an utterly awful idea. I'd like to think that if his vote had been 100% necessary to a flip he'd have moved it back, but I just don't know.
- His play at the start of the day. I still don't see what the point of going after Sciberbia like that was.
- His antangonism towards Mocsta and Thrawn. Considering he isn't planning on lynching them any time soon this just seems like an excuse for activity.
- He's focused in on Onegu something chronic. Isn't considering Jampidampi, Rean, etc. as possible lynches at all.

There were one or two sketchy things about LoneMeow's contributions in this slot which I won't go over again.

Holyflare hasn't had time to contribute much so far. Can't say I'm impressed much with what he has contributed, though.

Sure he consolidated onto Rayn at the end, but only while shouting about how it wasn't his fault that Rayn was going to flip green. I don't consider that he did enough work pushing an alternate wagon.

I'm finding Holyflare's insistence that a lot of scum were on Rayn's wagon... disturbing, considering how greatly that opinion differs from my own. If Holyflare's scum, and most of the scumteam is not on the Rayn wagon (as I suspect), he obviously has a vested interest in pushing this point of view. I don't think he's incapable of thinking this as town, but if he continues to push this point without considering other facts, my read on him will only become scummier.