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On November 20 2013 17:07 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:42 Aquanim wrote:On November 20 2013 16:08 Rean wrote:... On November 20 2013 15:57 Aquanim wrote:
@Mocsta
If Corazon and sciberbia are both scum, what was their motive for going after one another as they have so early? It's focused a lot of attention on the two of them, and I can't imagine that being what scum wants.
@Rean
Why do you want to see me in particular pressured? To me you look like you're in the position that if I were scum I'd love: sit back, ask some questions, give some non-commital opinions from time to time and earn easy town credit while not under any real pressure. So one of your questions back at you: if you had a vig shot that only hit scum, who would you aim it at right now and why? Probably you. I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. I also don't see any particular purpose behind your posting so far - you've offered some observations when prompted but I don't see you trying to get more information and learn more about the motivations of other players, besides some half-assed and half-hearted pressuring of myself (which you tried to prompt someone else to do). In fact, the more I think about your filter the less I like it. ##Vote: ReanI'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him. This post is obviously fake. This is the first time Aquanim commits to a scum read, and the way he does it does not look natural. He cites Corazon's case as being "sketchy at best" when earlier he gave Corazon a null read for it, because he could see how town Corazon could make the case. Seeing how a town C can make a case and calling him null does not match up with aquanim thinking the case was "sketchy at best." This means that this reason for thinking rean is scum is completely made up. After that point Aquanim talks about rean's play as a whole but I think his summary applies more to himself than it does to Rean. On top of that his allegations are false... Rean has made posts where he appears to be trying to discern alignments. Go find them, it's easy. It took me about 2 seconds after opening his filter. If it took me 2 seconds to reach the opposite conclusion Aquanim did.... something's not right.
I always thought Corazon's case on sciberbia was bad. That's not inconsistent with my opinion that Corazon could be town having made that case. There were two possibilities:
- Corazon was town and honestly mistaken
- Corazon was making a case to generate discussion and wasn't particularly concerned with its quality.
Sure, Rean asked me for a scum read. That's the easiest and least insightful question you can ask, scum can do that without any effort at all. I don't see any indications that Rean is putting actual effort into his scum hunting.
Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote:
Short answer to Thrawn's case:
I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them.
Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them.
For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning. In this post he is acknowledging that everything I said about him was correct. He's not scumhunting, etc. His excuse for this is that he's concerned that people might just come in and sheep the Corazon lynch? This is a very weak excuse for not being suspicious of anything and not trying to scumhunt. If he didn't want the thread to only talk about Corazon he could have just as easily found something else to talk about. His case and vote for Rean does not count as him trying to do this because Rean nearly forced him into it. He says he voted Rean to open a second wagon. So what does that mean? He wasn't actually that suspicious of Rean and he truly isn't suspicious of anything? I'm not buying it. Another thing I didn't like about this defense is that he was neither suspicious of my motives, nor did he get angry, frustrated, annoyed, etc at me for being a bad townie via my reading him incorrectly. I was very emphatic about my opinion that he is mafia and I expect him to reply with either of the two responses I just mentioned.
Everything you said about my play was more or less accurate, why should I try and deny that? Corazon and Sciberia's little dust-up was pretty much the only thing that had happened so far in the game, so I asked some other random questions. Mocsta answered questions enthusiastically and more-or-less logically, which gives me a town read on him; Rean answered questions with mostly useless one-liners, which gives me a scum read on him. I consider my time well spent.
I'm about as confident that Rean is scum as Corazon, perhaps a little less, which is compensated by the advantages of opening up a second wagon.
I'm not suspicious of your motives because you're obvtown. I'm not annoyed at you because you're not ridiculously misrepresenting my play (which would be bad play), you're just wrong about my alignment.
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On November 20 2013 17:17 Mocsta wrote:
Regarding Corazon: I find it odd you think that is damning . Unless both are scum, I find that action to be indicative of town.
You do not appear to think Sciberbia is scum; which perplexes me why you would think Corazon is thus, scum.
Okay, let me rephrase that. I don't see any town-motivated purpose to Corazon's posting so far. If he thinks Sciberbia is scum, why isn't he voting for him? If he isn't confident Sciberbia is scum, why is he pushing the Sciberbia-scum argument so vehemently?
I think Corazon's case is bad but obviously he doesn't. Corazon's vote doesn't have to be consistent with my opinion of his case, it has to be consistent with his opinion - and it's not.
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On November 20 2013 17:30 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 17:21 Aquanim wrote:
*snip*
Sure, Rean asked me for a scum read. That's the easiest and least insightful question you can ask, scum can do that without any effort at all. I don't see any indications that Rean is putting actual effort into his scum hunting.
You have got to be joking me? As we are speaking generically: the only time scum have an easy time giving scum reads is if they are referring to their own team. Otherwise, they are *always* lying - due to calling town players that they *know* are town... scum. Mafia is a game of psychology and motive. The whole point is to catch mafia in a lie that a townie would not execute. Scum giving bullshit scum reads is meant to be one of those avenues. I dont have a clue how you get this so wrong?
You've misunderstood me. It's an easy question for scum to ASK. That is, if Rean is scum, he can very easily just ask someone for their scumreads.
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On November 20 2013 17:30 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote:
I'm about as confident that Rean is scum as Corazon, perhaps a little less, which is compensated by the advantages of opening up a second wagon. Why feel the need to build a case and *vote* for Rean instead of produce a series of questioning aimed at discerning his alignment? If anything a vote/case on him could make him harder to read as it puts him on the alert??
That was indeed a concern of mine which is why I didn't go after him earlier, but as a townie I have to make a case and throw down a vote sooner or later to demonstrate that I'm doing my job.
In fact, I rather think I held off for too long, given the current state of your read on me...
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EBWOP:
You could say that by pushing him further I might be able to demonstrate my towniness without playing my hand. The problem with that is that
1) I still wouldn't be publically comitting to anything, which leaves me still with the problem of demonstrating my towniness.
2) His answers to the questions I'd asked already were so lacking that I didn't think there was much to be gained by continuing with that approach.
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On November 20 2013 17:51 thrawn2112 wrote:This is a compilation of things Aqua has said about Corazon. + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please. I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.) On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote:
I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next. On November 20 2013 16:42 Aquanim wrote: I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best.
.......
I'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him.
On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote:
I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning. On November 20 2013 17:21 Aquanim wrote:
I always thought Corazon's case on sciberbia was bad. That's not inconsistent with my opinion that Corazon could be town having made that case. There were two possibilities:
- Corazon was town and honestly mistaken
- Corazon was making a case to generate discussion and wasn't particularly concerned with its quality.
On November 20 2013 17:21 Aquanim wrote:
I'm about as confident that Rean is scum as Corazon, perhaps a little less, which is compensated by the advantages of opening up a second wagon.
On November 20 2013 17:25 Aquanim wrote:\
Okay, let me rephrase that. I don't see any town-motivated purpose to Corazon's posting so far. If he thinks Sciberbia is scum, why isn't he voting for him? If he isn't confident Sciberbia is scum, why is he pushing the Sciberbia-scum argument so vehemently?
I think Corazon's case is bad but obviously he doesn't. Corazon's vote doesn't have to be consistent with my opinion of his case, it has to be consistent with his opinion - and it's not. It is a very convoluted thought process. It doesn't make sense and his position seems to very depending on what he needs to say in order to sufficiently answer a question as to avoid suspicion. He doesn't like C's case, he can see how a town C would make the case, he doesn't see anything town-motivated about Corazon's play, here are two possibilities of how a town Corazon could have made the case, and he's more confident that Corazon is scum than he is that Rean is scum. To add to all that, one of his main criticisms of Corazon is that Corazon isn't voting for his scumread. Neither is Aquanim by his own admission that he isn't as confident about Rean as he is about Corazon.
My thought process is consistent. The case which Corazon made which I believe I was referring to at that time is:
On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
is pretty bad; Sciberbia's "twisting words" was easily explainable as Sciberbia simply not having entirely followed Corazon's post asking thrawn if he was a mason - Corazon's wording was quite convoluted.
So. The case was bad, in that it completely failed to persuade me that sciberbia was scum. (I'm aware corazon has said other things about sciberbia; I didn't find them persuasive either).
However, the fact that the case was bad and didn't persuade me IS NOT scum-indicative for Corazon in as of itself, for the reasons I stated earlier (namely, that Corazon could be mistaken or be deliberately pushing a bad case.)
The fact that Corazon, despite apparently believing his case, is not committing to it by voting for sciberbia? THAT is scum-indicative.
+ Show Spoiler +Furthermore, earlier on when he was still developing and explaining his case against sciberbia, not voting at that point was not particularly scummy. However, when he'd concluded his argument and left without placing a vote even then? That was the point at which it became particularly scum-indicative. Which is why I'd made no mention of his failure to vote before that point, since I wanted to see if he would vote if left to himself.
Some things about Corazon's play, in as of themselves, do not point towards him being scum. Some things do. I don't see a contradiction there.
The difference between Corazon's vote and mine is that his vote is doing nothing at all, while mine is pressuring somebody who I also think is likely scum. There are other votes on Corazon pressuring him, and I consider that at this time my vote is better used to pressure Rean.
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On November 20 2013 18:09 Mocsta wrote:
Aquanim
You did newbies with Corazon
Regarding
Him being so butthurt someone copied him
Null, town or scum tell
The only newbie I played with him he was rookie scum + Show Spoiler +yeah I know he fooled me for a while, but orangeremi was so damn scummy
To answer your question:
Null, maybe very very very slightly leaning town. My impression is that he gets stroppy more easily as a townie than as scum, but he could easily make an adjustment to his scumplay to change that. Also, if there was a failure to communicate effectively between him and scib I can see that irritating Corazon regardless of his alignment.
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On November 20 2013 18:18 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 18:04 Aquanim wrote:However, the fact that the case was bad and didn't persuade me IS NOT scum-indicative for Corazon in as of itself, for the reasons I stated earlier (namely, that Corazon could be mistaken or be deliberately pushing a bad case.) The fact that Corazon, despite apparently believing his case, is not committing to it by voting for sciberbia? THAT is scum-indicative. + Show Spoiler +Furthermore, earlier on when he was still developing and explaining his case against sciberbia, not voting at that point was not particularly scummy. However, when he'd concluded his argument and left without placing a vote even then? That was the point at which it became particularly scum-indicative. Which is why I'd made no mention of his failure to vote before that point, since I wanted to see if he would vote if left to himself. You say Cor's case being bad is not scum-indicative.. even though you already used the phrase "sketchy at best" to describe it. Anyways, according to you, at least in this post, you are not holding his case against him. What you are holding against him is the fact that he's not voting for scib? That's the only reason? It must be, since you aren't going to hold his case against him. Why does that even make him scum in the first place? You say your vote on Rean is fine because it's a pressure vote, but then you're admitting that people don't always have to vote for their top scumreads. And this is why he's your top scumread? Because he hasn't typed in vote:xxxxx during the first few hours of the game? Bah! Bah, I say unto thee.
On November 20 2013 15:42 cDgCorazon wrote:
...
@sciberia
Put your vote where your mouth is.
Corazon's quite aware of the importance of "putting your vote where your mouth is". His failure to do so belies an inconsistent mindset typical of scum.
Corazon's failure to vote is the most obvious expression of an overall pattern in his play - being that while he has been attacking sciberbia I don't think he's been doing it with any purpose in mind. If he was seriously trying to get sciberbia lynched (or even pretending to for the purposes of motivating the thread) he'd be voting for him. If he isn't in any sense trying to push a sciberbia lynch... then what the hell is he doing? The only explanation I can come up with is that he's scum making noise for the purposes of looking active, and maybe pushing suspicion onto a town player.
If Corazon comes back from sleepy-times and starts playing dynamically, pushing lynches and seeking information, my read on him could well change. It's not beyond belief that his play so far is that of a townie who does not in fact have a plan other than to randomly talk about a scumread. I just don't think it's likely.
And regarding this:
You say Cor's case being bad is not scum-indicative.. even though you already used the phrase "sketchy at best" to describe it. Anyways, according to you, at least in this post, you are not holding his case against him.
If Corazon's case had been good he'd likely be a townread for me, despite his failure to vote. The fact that the case is bad is therefore not irrelevant, but it's not enough for a scumread just based on that.
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Well, it looks like Jampidampi has run off without adressing the elephant. I'm not sure whether to be insulted.
He'd better offer some more constructive opinions when he gets back, though.
On November 20 2013 18:22 jampidampi wrote:@Sciberbia: My read on Corazon is not conclusive aka null. Slightly on the town side of null. + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.
Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.
Now to my goals/early game statements:
1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
Don't like this post. Doesn't say anything with a substance. + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now. Don't understand what he is trying to say with this. If "us" refers to Scib and Cora, how does he come to the conclusion that Scib can "sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others" if Scib is tunneling Cora? On one hand Cora could be a townie caught in a emotional tunnel. This falls in line with his tone when directly responding to Scib. On the other hand he could be scum. Reserving judgement until he returns and properly answears Sciberbias case and this post.
@Jampidampi: This reads to me like two quotes demonstrating why you don't like Corazon's play so far. How does that leave you on the town side of null? I think you need to flesh this out some more.
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@Onegu: What are your actual conclusions re. Mocsta's alignment?
@LoneMeow: What is your read on Bereft?
Both of you: do you have any questions for me?
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On November 20 2013 22:39 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 22:21 Mocsta wrote:
onegu
your 3 posts, I cannot comprehend the motive behind those posts - if you are town
walk me through why the items you have discussed are the most relevant items in the thread to . Umm I think you are scum with rean. Catching scum would be my motive.
Well, I guess that answers my question.
Is your entire scum read on Mocsta due to that business with his post limit?
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On November 20 2013 22:55 Mocsta wrote:
aquanim
thoughts on jampidampi
Blew in, offered some observations, blew out without commenting on me. Depends a lot what he does when he comes back - if he elaborates well on his reads and begins to post purposefully then townread, otherwise not so much.
A quick look at his game history shows he's commonly mislynched in the first day or two. His filter in I Swear it's Normal (mislynched day 1) looks superficially the same as what I've seen here so far (some random observations, no real pushing of any particular reads, not a great deal of overall purpose).
Verdict: Null at present. I think there should be better lynches possible today in any case.
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On November 20 2013 23:27 LoneMeow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 22:20 Aquanim wrote:
@LoneMeow: What is your read on Bereft?
Both of you: do you have any questions for me? I don't really have a read on Bereft, very little content to go by. Asking questions is okay but scum can do that easily aswell, I need to see what he does with the answers. What do you think of sciberbia's case on cDgCorazon?
For reference, sciberbia's case:
+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE] On November 20 2013 15:53 sciberbia wrote:on Cora+ Show Spoiler [quotes] +On November 20 2013 12:17 sciberbia wrote:I think Cora is most likely to be scum so far. His entrance to the thread is what I would describe as very 'safe'. It's trolly, ingratiating, and echoes what Mocsta already said. agree or disagree. On November 20 2013 12:06 Mocsta wrote:
I understand some people view early trolling as part of the game, however, I would think you do not fall into this category.
In fact, I would argue the above is completely out-of-character for a town Aquanim.
On November 20 2013 12:24 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 12:19 Bereft wrote:On November 20 2013 12:16 Mocsta wrote:
post 4
K thrawn is town
De ja ducking vu explain. you're going to burn through your posts really quickly if you write 1 to 2 liners and expect the rest of us to all be on your wavelength. post 5Scum like to interrupt town circles, so dial down the tone will ya. I think if there are 3 scum. So far it'saquanim, sciberbia and you. On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
1) The first thing I want to emphasize is a point brought up by Bereft. Cora singled me out for stating preliminary reads on the first page, but glossed over Mocsta doing the same thing. This inconsistency is suspicious because it suggests that his problem wasn't with the stating of reads (in which case he should have been equally bothered by Mocsta), but rather with me specifically stating suspicion on him.
2) Next, I find suspicious Cora's early criticisms of my play. At first, the criticisms had a tone of "sciberbia's play is bad" (but not scummy). + Show Spoiler [neutral criticisms] +On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
On November 20 2013 12:44 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 12:43 sciberbia wrote:On November 20 2013 12:28 thrawn2112 wrote:
Who wants a free town read? I've only got one, get it while supplies last! All you need to do is be the first to respond to this post!
mocsta is ineligible because him and I are already confirmed town to each other @thrawn You are masons? Thx for piggybacking on my post. I really appreciate it. On November 20 2013 12:57 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 12:54 Aquanim wrote:
...
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
The way I see it, sciberbia analysing the first page at least gives us something to talk about. Why don't you think what he's doing is productive? I think it is sciberia either not understanding that the first page of a game is usually just joking around or he is trying to rock the boat ridiculously early in the game. Seeing as sciberia is not new to this game, I think it's the latter. I find criticism of "bad play" in the first couple pages suspicious in general. Scum find it tempting to discredit townies and promote a negative town atmosphere. Townies on the other hand are more likely to be in a joyous mood after receiving their role PM, rather than antagonistic.
3) But specific to Cora, I'm troubled by the fact that when questioned about these posts by Bereft, Aquanim, and Thrawn, he retroactively analyzes my previous posts as scummy, whereas before his comments were noncommittal criticisms. If he really found my first few posts so scummy, the noncommittal criticisms are very unnatural. Originally he said this: + Show Spoiler [very alignment neutral] +On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
But then later this when questioned by thrawn: + Show Spoiler [scummy] +On November 20 2013 13:43 cDgCorazon wrote:
@Thrawn
In my opinion, if he was trying to create a good town atmosphere in the start, he did a very poor job of doing so. That's why I was thinking (and still am) that sciberia is scum. So according to Cora, he was thinking that I was scum simultaneously as he was writing that you cannot find scum on the first page? That's a pretty blatant contradiction and it seems more likely one that scum would make than town.
I'd appreciate feedback on this case. I think it's the strongest one in the thread right now so
1) I find unconvincing. I think it's believable that a town Corazon would only notice the read given on him, though a scum Corazon probably would too. Perhaps a teeny-tiny bit scum-leaning but meh.
2) I'm inclined to agree with. I don't get the impression Corazon is enjoying himself in this game.
As for 3) I can understand that Corazon's read on sciberbia could change over time (even though the posts it's based on haven't changed). Particularly when called upon to explain oneself, one's opinion of a particular post can shift - I speak from my own past experience here. And hell, sometimes townies contradict themselves. Like point 1) I think this is plausible from both town and scum Corazon, though again maybe slightly more likely from scum.
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So, these votes on me.
Jampidampi
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2013 00:22 jampidampi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 18:24 thrawn2112 wrote:
jampidampi, have you noticed the elephant in the room?
It's over there >>>>>
What do you make of it? Assuming you mean your case on Aquanim. I like it. I especially like how it applies to Aquas play even after the case. ##Vote: AquanimHere's some more evidnce against Aquanim: Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 20:01 Aquanim wrote:Well, it looks like Jampidampi has run off without adressing the elephant. I'm not sure whether to be insulted. He'd better offer some more constructive opinions when he gets back, though. On November 20 2013 18:22 jampidampi wrote:@Sciberbia: My read on Corazon is not conclusive aka null. Slightly on the town side of null. + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.
Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.
Now to my goals/early game statements:
1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
Don't like this post. Doesn't say anything with a substance. + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now. Don't understand what he is trying to say with this. If "us" refers to Scib and Cora, how does he come to the conclusion that Scib can "sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others" if Scib is tunneling Cora? On one hand Cora could be a townie caught in a emotional tunnel. This falls in line with his tone when directly responding to Scib. On the other hand he could be scum. Reserving judgement until he returns and properly answears Sciberbias case and this post. @Jampidampi: This reads to me like two quotes demonstrating why you don't like Corazon's play so far. How does that leave you on the town side of null? I think you need to flesh this out some more. This post is odd. It feels like Aqua really wanted to say the first paragraph and inserted the second one to make a post with more substance. If Aqua wanted to address my post with the second pararaph, why wait nearly two hours? Since the motive of this post clearly wasn't to adress my post, it must lie withing the first paragrapgh. The first paragrapgh is just throwing some dirt onto me without stating explicit suspection. The motive behind it is to make me look worse. That, ladies and gentleman, is a scum motive. @LoneMeow: Could be more specific about what makes you think Aqua is town? What do you think about the case on him?
Basically, it took me two hours to determine that you weren't coming back and wouldn't elaborate on that point on your own. If you were going to explain yourself without my prompting I wanted to give you that opportunity. Obviously you didn't, and I can't help but notice you haven't answered my question even now. @Jampidampi I'd still like you to answer my question.
Rean
I already knew when I left to sleep that Rean would be voting for me when I came back. Based on his earlier suspicions of me it's the obvious next step to sheep a case someone has obligingly made for him, regardless of his alignment.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2013 03:04 Rean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:42 Aquanim wrote:On November 20 2013 16:08 Rean wrote:... On November 20 2013 15:57 Aquanim wrote:
@Mocsta
If Corazon and sciberbia are both scum, what was their motive for going after one another as they have so early? It's focused a lot of attention on the two of them, and I can't imagine that being what scum wants.
@Rean
Why do you want to see me in particular pressured? To me you look like you're in the position that if I were scum I'd love: sit back, ask some questions, give some non-commital opinions from time to time and earn easy town credit while not under any real pressure. So one of your questions back at you: if you had a vig shot that only hit scum, who would you aim it at right now and why? Probably you. I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. I also don't see any particular purpose behind your posting so far - you've offered some observations when prompted but I don't see you trying to get more information and learn more about the motivations of other players, besides some half-assed and half-hearted pressuring of myself (which you tried to prompt someone else to do). In fact, the more I think about your filter the less I like it. ##Vote: ReanI'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him. How unexpected. You're put under pressure and you instantly accuse me to try to prove me wrong about you, but 2 posts later you're already looking for arguments to back out of it like + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote:
Short answer to Thrawn's case:
I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them.
Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them.
For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning. . And then you go for Corazon with some not terribly convincing arguments such as Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 18:04 Aquanim wrote:The fact that Corazon, despite apparently believing his case, is not committing to it by voting for sciberbia? THAT is scum-indicative. This seems awfully weak to me, a case on him at this point is already applying pressure by focussing discussion on him and trying to catch him on a lie. While a vote does put a little extra pressure on it I think saying it's scum-indicative not to vote is really overrating it's importance. This, combined with what Thrawn already said (not gonna waste time parroting), really gives me a bad feeling about you. Enough for a ##Vote: AquanimSome other things I really want to adress: Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:55 sciberbia wrote:
EBWOP
Oh yea one other I wanted to reply to was your criticism that I ignored Cora for a while. I stopped prodding Cora because other people were doing a fine job of it and I thought it'd be more productive for them to ask questions such as "explain why you think this about sciberbia" than me doing it. Also I was getting increasingly suspicious of him so I decided to just observe and include my comprehensive thoughts in a later case.
I didn't want to miss the opportunity to question Rean who is probably my second strongest read right now. I find Aquanim's above post on him agreeable. Apparently I'm his second strongest scumread, yet all he's done is ask me a single question very early on in the thread. He has made practically no effort to actually do anything about his "second strongest scum-read". I don't like this at all. Please do explain Sciberbia. Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 17:20 jampidampi wrote:On November 20 2013 13:19 Rean wrote:On November 20 2013 13:14 Bereft wrote:
he wasn't actually calling mocsta scum. just you.
i don't see the distinction between mocsta's explicitly stating and sciberia's "window looking". how were they different? could you expand pls? He means that Mocsta is going around calling people scum or town straightup, unlike Sciberia who is more held back. At this point, what in Sciberias posting came to you as held back? That he, compared to Mocsta going around calling people "confirmed town" and naming scumteams 5 posts in, seemed to be taking it easy and more the "is most likely to be scum" route. In hindsight held back is probably not the phrase I'm looking for but you know what I mean.
Okay.
1) I'm not backing out of my read on Rean, I'm quite confident he is scum. At the time, I was quite confident on both him and Corazon being scum, and since there were already votes on Corazon I decided I'd vote for Rean to pressure him too. I don't see what problem anybody has with that.
2) "Haven't done anything about my second-strongest scumread"? I put a vote on Rean after satisfying myself he wasn't going to contribute anything meaningful without a nudge, and then he hadn't come back and replied by the time I went to sleep so there was nothing further to do.
Corazon
I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2013 01:16 cDgCorazon wrote:On Aqua (again): My problem with Aquanim is that he goes from a very neutral stance on me: Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote:On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please. I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.) As for scum, I'm not sure yet. Not enough information. I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next.I still want an answer to this from you: On November 20 2013 13:04 Aquanim wrote:On November 20 2013 12:55 Rean wrote:On November 20 2013 12:52 Bereft wrote:
Rean, what do you think of Mocsta thus far? Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says. @Rean Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment? To an all-out "he's scum!" stance without really having a transition between the two stances. It really troubles me that this was only after all of the cases on me came out. It just looks like Aqua just wants to follow thread sentiment for the big issues and branch out only for things related to his "reads". For example, his case on Rean screams to me that he wants to attack Rean for defending me. His case is weak and he blatantly lies about Rean's questioning of him and calls them not important when in fact he failed to read the reason they were asked in the first place: Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please. It's obvious that Aquanim did not read the reason that Rean threw out this post and simply calls Rean scummy for asking this question. This was a good post because Rean wanted to continue discussion and get a read on Aqua who he had felt was not contributing enough information and enough opinions to the conversation. The fact that Aqua calls this scummy is absurd and can only be attributed to his own scumminess. TL;DR Changes opinion on me to follow thread sentiment Attacks Rean (and says his question about town/scum reads accomplishes nothing when in fact it does) for defending me This guy is scum I'm confident enough in this case to throw a ##Vote: Aquanim out.
1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia)
2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town.
3) This guy isn't scum
and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon".
Rayn
I don't think there was anything in particular new to address from rayn's vote.
If anyone has anything further for me to adress I'll be around to answer.
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On November 21 2013 08:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why are you voting for Rean when your post suggests you have a bigger scumread (or at least better reasons) on Corazon?
Well, I was voting Rean to pressure him, since Corazon was already being pressured. At this point, though, the pressure from my vote appears pretty irrelevant. I'mma reread the last ten pages or so and decide who my greatest scumread is now, and then I'll vote for them. The time for me to mess around with pressuring and such appears to be well and truly past.
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On November 21 2013 08:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is a big problem with that because you should be voting for your top scumread.
What's your case on Rean again?
Once again, my scumread on Rean was of almost equal strength to that which I had on Corazon. The reason I spent so much time talking about Corazon was because
1) I was being asked about my read on Corazon a lot
2) Rean wasn't in the thread so my vote on him had not yet elicited a response
My case on Rean is essentially that:
1) The only thing he's done to try to draw out any information from the thread was to ask me for a scumread, which is a very easy thing for scum to think of and ask. Besides that, he's done nothing useful.
2) His answers to questions were short and didn't explain much, indicating that he didn't want to talk about his reads
3) He asked someone else to pressure me rather than just doing it himself, indicating he doesn't want to take responsibility for pushing people:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 15:50 Rean wrote:Smartass comment that I couldn't resist: + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 15:28 Mocsta wrote:post 10 On November 20 2013 15:29 Mocsta wrote:post 12 consider getting one of these, you could use it :3 More seriously: Mocsta, good post by post analysis but I don't agree with it all. Your points on both Scib and Corazon make sense but I think you're falling into the "he must be scum so I'll try to interpret everything he says as scummy" trap a little with Cora. In particular: + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now. seems like a legitimate point to me rather than a scum-slip. But it could be a way of distancing himself from Scib if he flips red. I also want to see Aquanim under a bit of pressure to see how he reacts but let's not do everything at once.And the lack of 5 people is rather disappointing still.
4) He has shown little to no original thought
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On November 21 2013 08:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 08:16 Aquanim wrote:On November 21 2013 08:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why are you voting for Rean when your post suggests you have a bigger scumread (or at least better reasons) on Corazon? Well, I was voting Rean to pressure him, since Corazon was already being pressured. At this point, though, the pressure from my vote appears pretty irrelevant. I'mma reread the last ten pages or so and decide who my greatest scumread is now, and then I'll vote for them. The time for me to mess around with pressuring and such appears to be well and truly past. Uhh.. I really don't like this. Are you saying your contributions at the start of the game were just "messing around" and "pressuring people"? That's a weak way to "flush all suspicion away", by just saying "guys hey, i was just messing around, now i start playing".
Let me rephrase that. Yesterday the goal of my play was to get more information by pressuring and asking questions. Today I can't afford to have a goal other than working directly towards a lynch, since otherwise I will likely be lynched - and given that I know I'm town that would be a worst-case scenario.
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On November 21 2013 08:29 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 08:22 Aquanim wrote:On November 21 2013 08:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is a big problem with that because you should be voting for your top scumread.
What's your case on Rean again? Once again, my scumread on Rean was of almost equal strength to that which I had on Corazon. The reason I spent so much time talking about Corazon was because 1) I was being asked about my read on Corazon a lot 2) Rean wasn't in the thread so my vote on him had not yet elicited a response My case on Rean is essentially that: 1) The only thing he's done to try to draw out any information from the thread was to ask me for a scumread, which is a very easy thing for scum to think of and ask. Besides that, he's done nothing useful. 2) His answers to questions were short and didn't explain much, indicating that he didn't want to talk about his reads 3) He asked someone else to pressure me rather than just doing it himself, indicating he doesn't want to take responsibility for pushing people: + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 15:50 Rean wrote:Smartass comment that I couldn't resist: + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 15:28 Mocsta wrote:post 10 On November 20 2013 15:29 Mocsta wrote:post 12 consider getting one of these, you could use it :3 More seriously: Mocsta, good post by post analysis but I don't agree with it all. Your points on both Scib and Corazon make sense but I think you're falling into the "he must be scum so I'll try to interpret everything he says as scummy" trap a little with Cora. In particular: + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present. He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others. This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it. This is what troubles me about sciberia right now. seems like a legitimate point to me rather than a scum-slip. But it could be a way of distancing himself from Scib if he flips red. I also want to see Aquanim under a bit of pressure to see how he reacts but let's not do everything at once.And the lack of 5 people is rather disappointing still. 4) He has shown little to no original thought Can you tell me,at the time of your vote, how you have contributed towards scumhunting more than Rean had?
First, the vote itself. I voted for my scumread myself instead of asking someone else to pressure him who I could nonchalantly stand behind.
I also consider that the questions I asked (intended to better understand the point of view of other players, and determine their depth of belief in their arguments) were more useful and more insightful than Rean's "Who's your top scumread?" excuse for a contribution.
Finally, I was and am always willing to talk and expose my thought process, which helps you to determine my alignment - which is not what I see from Rean, compare this:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 12:54 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 12:26 sciberbia wrote:On November 20 2013 12:18 Aquanim wrote:On November 20 2013 12:14 thrawn2112 wrote:On November 20 2013 12:12 Aquanim wrote:
Also, it gave you something to ask me about, so as a conversation starter I consider it a success. What are your conclusions about moc's alignment based on his answer? A teeny-tiny town-lean since he seems to be relaxed. That's interesting. I assumed you were coming to the opposite conclusion, since to me his response looks more "sarcastic and dodgy" than "just saying no". What about his response strikes you as relaxed? + Show Spoiler [sarcastic and dodgy] +On November 20 2013 12:06 Mocsta wrote:
Scum: a layer of dirt or froth on the surface of a liquid.
No, I am not.
I am a mobster, which is typically "scum" in the world of forum-mafia
However, in this game, roles are reversed and of the town I am.
I think it's to be expected that in a forum game replies will be more verbose, and I'd expect some level of sarcasm from Mocsta in any case. Without any previous experience with this tactic in a forum game I don't have a baseline to compare to. As an actual answer to your question: While his answer does have a fair bit of fluff in it, I don't get the feeling that he is uncomfortable talking about his alignment[ which I think is the pertinent point. The "No, I am not" is quite direct. Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
...
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
this. If I see one more person go "X/Y/Z is scumteam GG NO RE #MANNERMULES"... (especially when X/Y/Z are each and every one town...) /rant Show nested quote +
...
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
The way I see it, sciberbia analysing the first page at least gives us something to talk about. Why don't you think what he's doing is productive?
to this:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2013 12:55 Rean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 12:52 Bereft wrote:
Rean, what do you think of Mocsta thus far? Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says.
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On November 21 2013 08:40 cDgCorazon wrote:
To be honest Aqua you say that there was "new information" on me which prompted you to change your vote but I think that claim is all smoke and mirrors. You wanted town to waste time arguing about me and not have anyone notice your lack of in-depth analysis and definite reads on anyone in the game. When Rean asked for it, you started attacking him and never answered his request directly even though multiple people thought it was a fair request.
Sure Rean has contradicted himself a few times and the accusations against him are true, I don't think they warrant a full-on case on him and I don't think that he should be lynched for it. You seem to be all about looking like you are scum hunting and jumping on the right wagons and the timing of your changes of reads seem to indicate you are just trying to play for survival, which is what scum like to do.
I can't wait to see your observations of the last ten pages or so and to hear you try to change the lynch subject yet again.
I'm not sure there's any point in talking to you since 1) you're likely scum and 2) you've already made up your mind apparently.
Actually, you know what? Try justifying some of your wild claims first.
I've explained that I was waiting to see if you were going to back up your sciberbia case with a vote, and when you didn't I became much more suspicious of you. In what way is that smoke and mirrors?
What is your evidence that I wanted town to waste time arguing about you?
My attacking Rean WAS an answer to his question. He wanted to know my scumread - and it was Rean himself. I also had a scumread on you but I thought it would be more useful and I'd learn more by pushing Rean at that time, as I've explained.
Would you care to further explain why you think the argument why Rean is scum is weaker than the argument why I am? You've said that without actually justifying why you think it's so.
Oh, and why shouldn't I try to change the lynch subject when most everyone is voting for me?
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On November 21 2013 08:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So you quote two posts, one of yours where you give three different answers in comparsion to Rean's one, and even the questions are different.
If we compare something let's take the first quote of yours and the quote from Rean. Both answers are something that need to be explained. Yours, because people (and i agree with them) didn't understand how you can possibly draw a conclusion that Mocsta is town from that post as you didn't explain it. Rean's because instead of saying "null" he decided to characterize Mocsta's posting style. So i do not see how that's different at all. In next post Rean explains himself better, he says "null" in other words, again.
The second quote of yours, i have absolutely no idea what saying "i agree with Corazon on this is supposed to accomplish". Was that post very townie? because you are not really saying anything.
The last quote of yours, yes, that's a legit question. But then again you quoted three contributions of yourself and only one from Rean so you are not playing a fair game in my opinion, you are playing 3 vs 1.
So go back and read Rean's filter and mine and determine for yourself which one of us is being more open about our thought process.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/4t8oM40)
