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On December 03 2013 13:46 yamato77 wrote: ... Thread atmosphere is a culmination of every player's tone, however, and I do think it takes someone to mediate between feuding players to keep the game from degenerating. My criticism here is that no one seems to do this anymore, they just let two players argue incessantly. Hapa is a great town player in this regard, he is quick to both de-tunnel himself in those situations if he is arguing, and to step in if two others are destroying the thread. Someone has to mitigate the negativity. I tried that at a couple of points IIRC (EDIT: mostly d2 so I suppose you wouldn't have seen it) but it didn't improve much. Whether that's because I don't have the strength of personality of Hapa or because the feuding of townies these days is far more implacable... who knows? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + This section was written D3 so there are some flips I haven't seen yet. Just FYI. I saw a couple of people complaining/ranting this game that nobody read their cases. (Particularly thinking Cora, Onegu and Rayn here, though there may be others). I have a couple of things to say to you all. 1) I read everything you wrote at least once. I read everything at least once and I respond to what I choose to respond to, which is generally most of it eventually. Can any of you say you seriously evaluated Rayn's cases which he begged us to read D1 and posted your conclusions in the thread? 'cos I can. Whatever you may think my opinion of you is, know that I do read what you write. 2) Just because you put effort into your cases doesn't mean I'm obliged to agree with you. And it doesn't mean that, even if you were right about someone's alignment, you made a case which proved it. Getting angry at me because you put effort in and I still don't agree with you solves nothing. Try to understand what my reservations are, and convince me. 3) If I have to spend as much time reading your case as you spent writing it to understand it, or even a significant fraction as long, your case needs to be refined more. Remember, I have to read everybody's cases AND write my own. Expecting me to spend as much time trying to understand your contribution as you spent on your contribution is not a reasonable expectation of me. I've waited to join a game of mafia until I had quite a lot of time to spend on it, but I don't have THAT much time. I do have some advice for writing cases. I'm particularly thinking of Onegu's cases here since he particularly said it was a weakness of his (IIRC) but he's not the only one who could write more clearly. 1) Lead with a point indicating scum mentality, and then justify it.. When I read a "stream-of-consciousness" post or a list of posts ordered chronologically it is very difficult to follow your arguments. If you separate your quotes into sections based on what point you're proving with them it will help a lot. 2) Don't just tell me what they posted. I have already read the thread and I know (more or less) how the opinion of each player evolved in the game. You will probably need to quote them somewhat to justify your opinion, but don't quote them just for the sake of it. I want to see justified conclusions not rambling thoughts. 3) Less is more. The longer your post is, the harder it is to navigate and read. Two ways of dealing with this are: a) Take out the less conclusive stuff. I'm not interested in posts which are mostly null. b) Put quotes in spoilers. Put sections in spoilers. Separating sections into spoilers does wonders for the readability of a post. Some other comments for particular players: Thrawn, Sciberbia I doubt I have much constructive I can say to either of you since you're both considerably more seasoned players than I. It was a pleasure to play with you both, though. Chezinu ? Earned yourself a nightkill though so well played on that basis. Mocsta Likewise, a pleasure. This was the towniest game I've ever seen you play (not entirely sure why I think that, but whatever). I still saw some questionable single-post reads and leaps of logic from you BUT you seemed to mostly identify the dodgy ones and filter them out of your eventual solid reads, which I was very happy to see. I think Thrawn's answered your questions about your play more effectively than I could, so I'll leave that to him. Bereft You were clearly town and didn't rely on your doctor role as a crutch. There are probably improvements you could make to your play but I can't easily come up with any that haven't been mentioned already. JarJarDrinks Your lynch was unfortunate, but at that point in the game a townie was almost certainly going to get lynched; to lynch scum we'd have had to find Sciberbia (a comparatively active player) and lynch him, lynch an uncounterclaimed doctor in Holyflare, or lynch a slot which hadn't posted for 48+ hours. Your number came up on the dice rather than Onegu's. Sorry. Onegu I think part of the reason you get mislynched often as town (or at least, the reason I regarded you as at least possible scum this game) is that your arguments are, for lack of a better word, mechanical. That isn't a criticism of your play. What I'm trying to say is that I feel like you follow a fairly rigid process when making your reads and arguments, and it's a process which you could emulate quite closely as scum. I wouldn't be suprised to see you produce umpteen pages of notes as scum. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it is how I percieve your play. As for improving your reads... I can tell you one or two things I think you're doing wrong but I'm not sure how constructive it'll be. Anyway. My feeling when I read your cases (particularly the one on Mocsta) was that you were looking through his filter and coming up with a plausible scum motivation for all of them. The step which I think was missing is to look at the posts and think "Is there a plausible town motivation as well?". You might also look at the stuff on case-writing above, though I think you already did a fair bit of that in the last case you posted (on Corazon?). Holyflare, Alakaslam Not having actually played scum I won't presume to offer you advice. Well played though. I think I've already said everything I need to to Corazon and Rayn. | ||
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On December 03 2013 15:34 Holyflare wrote: As far as the game itself, I can't really say anything other than the arguments ruined it for you. I was allowed to play scummy as hell and get away with it because so much attention was drawn away from me it was unreal. My claim allowed things like this to occur: To be honest, rean's slot being AFK for almost all of d2 kind of made a mess of my plans for the day. Though I agree d2 could have gone better. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Particularly I'm thinking of wanting to lynch Kickstart over Munk-E in Newbie XXXI and TestSubject over Glurio in TL Mafia LX, if anyone's interested. However, in neither of those cases did I get mad, despite my inclination to do so. Why? Because it wouldn't make anyone more interested in talking to me, and it wouldn't make the game any more fun for anyone else. Other approaches I've used in the past which you might want to keep in mind are:
Your reasons for behaving as you did in this game explain your actions to me. I now have a better understanding of why you did what you did. However, they do not justify your actions, and furthermore didn't help you either win the game or have fun playing it. Holding the game to ransom, making the game unfun for everybody, is simply unjustifiable - which is why the postgame comments have been coming down on you so hard. Blaming Onegu for your read on him isn't exactly sportsmanlike either - it's a kind of justifiable thing to say about a lurker who puts no effort in, but Onegu clearly gave some kind of a damn about this game regardless of his alignment. He played to his wincon as best he knew how, and that is all I ask of anyone. I offer this to you as reasonable feedback on your play, trying to understand your motivations as best I can. I don't need you to reply - either you take my feedback on board, or you don't. | ||
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Now look I agree that scum have no reason to want themselves lynched - but townies shouldn't either. Furthermore, since martyring is a comparatively easy thing to emulate as scum, but scum have "no reason to do it", that in as of itself makes it something scum might choose to do. Especially if we start giving out townreads for it. If you find coming under suspicion so unpleasant that you just want to get lynched to get away from it (and to be able to say "I told you so" to whoever suspected you) then perhaps Mafia is not the game for you. (JarJar's position was quite awkward since I believe he wasn't around for most of D2 to defend himself. Therefore, I don't blame him - but even if his absense wasn't his fault, that didn't help us stop a mislynch.) | ||
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On December 03 2013 16:54 yamato77 wrote: thrawn - obviously town, a little backseat for my tastes. You have good reads in general, and know how to play town, you just don't have that leader-y quality that top tier townies do. That being said, an entire town of leaders might not accomplish a whole lot, so I don't think this would be necessarily a bad thing. @Onegu: besides what I've said already I don't really have any general advice for you, but if you have specific questions I (and/or other people) can try to answer them. | ||
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I don't blame you, it's entirely understandable. | ||
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On December 04 2013 00:11 Mocsta wrote: Seeing that last post of Onegu again. I would love to know in general why all the town thought it was scummy to have a post restriction and then remove it. Lol.. like its null .. but if you really wanted to stretch the alignment-boundaries, its definitely townier to remove it. Scum should be happy to use it as a fallback to lurking. After your first couple of posts in quick succession it was an object of some amusement to me to guess how soon you were going to ditch the idea... but I basically ignored it in terms of your alignment. | ||
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