EPTTL Mafia LXIII: Time to Die
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I’m going to have to read through again soon, as not everything is sticking with me. It’s currently 5am and I’ve had four hours sleep in the last 48 hours. I’m also having difficulty catching up on some of the terminology, though I’m gradually cluing in. I’ll just splurge out my impressions. I won’t make any formal cases just yet, I want to put my thoughts on paper then attend to them once I’m rested. Apologies in advance for poor formatting. I’m comfortable with confirming Yamato town. This may seem redundant since that’s the general consensus, but I’m very stringent so this is actually a pretty big step. On my next readthrough I’ll be fine tooth combing for Mocsta and VE. I’ve got precious history with Mocsta, but he’s also quite active. I want to confirm him town if possible. VE seems like the next most obvious, given the amount of material he has provided. I don’t like some of VE’s towncalls, but I think they’ve already been covered by others. LoneMeow masoning incident: I find this unsuspicious. I’m probably more interested in those who tried to force this to be an issue. Artanis and SS: SS seems dense. The projected paradigm within which he claims to view the world where everyone’s decision making is based entirely on the single factor of whether or not victory is achieved, is silly. Does he seriously expect people to sit through a month of his needless abuse in order to slightly increase their chances of winning a prizeless endeavour? Does he seriously think that by espousing his (so far generally unimpressive) logic to the exclusion of compromise in the pursuit of cooperation, he will achieve his intended position of mayor? I understand that some people have difficulty getting along with others, but it seems to me a cover. I’d like to hear people’s thoughts on his meta. For someone who proclaims his own competency as a vet at the beginning of the thread, this incompetency is not consistent from my (admittedly limited) perspective. It could very easily be used to obscure scummy motives. Admittedly, there have also been town tells. I've mixed feelings here. Grack: The trolling seems a poor move. BC is hammering him, and IMO rightly so. Grack has fluffed, and Grack has not done much else. I can only think that: - Grack does not care (useless town) - Grack is in some way trying to modify his meta (unlikely) - Grack is trying to scumbait (somewhat more likely) - Grack is scum (most likely) The Kush4prez line was possibly scumbait, but honestly I don’t see how a town Grack was planning on taking that bait (if successful) and then convincing town of his plan post hoc. The inevitable arse biting his actions have reaped was entirely foreseeable. It’s difficult to see him as town, as his actions have caused little but discord. Yamato lynching BC: I’m not sure, but did I miss the case? I see BC as good, I don’t want him to be scum. I’m not sure why that makes us need to lynch him without further information, as so far he’s been valuable. Unless I’m missing something, Mocsta was right to demand more reasoning for yamato’s platform based on BC. That said, Mocsta’s reasoning about cost/benefit for lynching BC confused me. If it’s what I think it is, it’s suspiciously dull. Sharrant: I’m not entirely certain how this became a thing, I’ll look into it in my next read. There didn't seem enough information at the time to make reads, that it was mentioned so many times sort of makes me think of artificial intervention. Kushmasta: His propensity for unpredictable play makes him unsuitable for mayor. Everyone knows this, though I think some take it too far. Policy lynching him seems both poor play and in poor taste. Using him as a vehicle for lynchbait/trolling is also pretty shit. I think people attempting to bring Kush into the spotlight are hard pressed to provide a believable town motive. Other than that, there are a lot of people that are sliding around on my scale, but also a lot of undercommitment in posts. If you have a read, please don’t just state your conclusion, as it only begs the question, and junks up the thread with people demanding that you elaborate. You may feel like you’re getting straight to the point #lessismore #quietconfidence but the end result is a less cohesive discussion, and a less effective town. | ||
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Please ask questions etc. | ||
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On November 16 2013 03:50 Spaghetticus wrote: I’m comfortable with confirming Yamato town. This may seem redundant since that’s the general consensus, but I’m very stringent so this is actually a pretty big step. On my next readthrough I’ll be fine tooth combing for Mocsta and VE. I’ve got precious history with Mocsta, but he’s also quite active. I want to confirm him town if possible. VE seems like the next most obvious, given the amount of material he has provided. I don’t like some of VE’s towncalls, but I think they’ve already been covered by others. LoneMeow masoning incident: I find this unsuspicious. I’m probably more interested in those who tried to force this to be an issue. Artanis and SS: SS seems dense. The projected paradigm within which he claims to view the world where everyone’s decision making is based entirely on the single factor of whether or not victory is achieved, is silly. Does he seriously expect people to sit through a month of his needless abuse in order to slightly increase their chances of winning a prizeless endeavour? Does he seriously think that by espousing his (so far generally unimpressive) logic to the exclusion of compromise in the pursuit of cooperation, he will achieve his intended position of mayor? I understand that some people have difficulty getting along with others, but it seems to me a cover. I’d like to hear people’s thoughts on his meta. For someone who proclaims his own competency as a vet at the beginning of the thread, this incompetency is not consistent from my (admittedly limited) perspective. It could very easily be used to obscure scummy motives. Admittedly, there have also been town tells. I've mixed feelings here. Grack: The trolling seems a poor move. BC is hammering him, and IMO rightly so. Grack has fluffed, and Grack has not done much else. I can only think that: - Grack does not care (useless town) - Grack is in some way trying to modify his meta (unlikely) - Grack is trying to scumbait (somewhat more likely) - Grack is scum (most likely) The Kush4prez line was possibly scumbait, but honestly I don’t see how a town Grack was planning on taking that bait (if successful) and then convincing town of his plan post hoc. The inevitable arse biting his actions have reaped was entirely foreseeable. It’s difficult to see him as town, as his actions have caused little but discord. Yamato lynching BC: I’m not sure, but did I miss the case? I see BC as good, I don’t want him to be scum. I’m not sure why that makes us need to lynch him without further information, as so far he’s been valuable. Unless I’m missing something, Mocsta was right to demand more reasoning for yamato’s platform based on BC. That said, Mocsta’s reasoning about cost/benefit for lynching BC confused me. If it’s what I think it is, it’s suspiciously dull. Sharrant: I’m not entirely certain how this became a thing, I’ll look into it in my next read. There didn't seem enough information at the time to make reads, that it was mentioned so many times sort of makes me think of artificial intervention. Kushmasta: His propensity for unpredictable play makes him unsuitable for mayor. Everyone knows this, though I think some take it too far. Policy lynching him seems both poor play and in poor taste. Using him as a vehicle for lynchbait/trolling is also pretty shit. I think people attempting to bring Kush into the spotlight are hard pressed to provide a believable town motive. Other than that, there are a lot of people that are sliding around on my scale, but also a lot of undercommitment in posts. If you have a read, please don’t just state your conclusion, as it only begs the question, and junks up the thread with people demanding that you elaborate. You may feel like you’re getting straight to the point #lessismore #quietconfidence but the end result is a less cohesive discussion, and a less effective town. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On November 16 2013 03:50 Spaghetticus wrote: I’m comfortable with confirming Yamato town. This may seem redundant since that’s the general consensus, but I’m very stringent so this is actually a pretty big step. On my next readthrough I’ll be fine tooth combing for Mocsta and VE. I’ve got precious history with Mocsta, but he’s also quite active. I want to confirm him town if possible. VE seems like the next most obvious, given the amount of material he has provided. I don’t like some of VE’s towncalls, but I think they’ve already been covered by others. LoneMeow masoning incident: I find this unsuspicious. I’m probably more interested in those who tried to force this to be an issue. Artanis and SS: SS seems dense. The projected paradigm within which he claims to view the world where everyone’s decision making is based entirely on the single factor of whether or not victory is achieved, is silly. Does he seriously expect people to sit through a month of his needless abuse in order to slightly increase their chances of winning a prizeless endeavour? Does he seriously think that by espousing his (so far generally unimpressive) logic to the exclusion of compromise in the pursuit of cooperation, he will achieve his intended position of mayor? I understand that some people have difficulty getting along with others, but it seems to me a cover. I’d like to hear people’s thoughts on his meta. For someone who proclaims his own competency as a vet at the beginning of the thread, this incompetency is not consistent from my (admittedly limited) perspective. It could very easily be used to obscure scummy motives. Admittedly, there have also been town tells. I've mixed feelings here. Grack: The trolling seems a poor move. BC is hammering him, and IMO rightly so. Grack has fluffed, and Grack has not done much else. I can only think that: - Grack does not care (useless town) - Grack is in some way trying to modify his meta (unlikely) - Grack is trying to scumbait (somewhat more likely) - Grack is scum (most likely) The Kush4prez line was possibly scumbait, but honestly I don’t see how a town Grack was planning on taking that bait (if successful) and then convincing town of his plan post hoc. The inevitable arse biting his actions have reaped was entirely foreseeable. It’s difficult to see him as town, as his actions have caused little but discord. Yamato lynching BC: I’m not sure, but did I miss the case? I see BC as good, I don’t want him to be scum. I’m not sure why that makes us need to lynch him without further information, as so far he’s been valuable. Unless I’m missing something, Mocsta was right to demand more reasoning for yamato’s platform based on BC. That said, Mocsta’s reasoning about cost/benefit for lynching BC confused me. If it’s what I think it is, it’s suspiciously dull. Sharrant: I’m not entirely certain how this became a thing, I’ll look into it in my next read. There didn't seem enough information at the time to make reads, that it was mentioned so many times sort of makes me think of artificial intervention. Kushmasta: His propensity for unpredictable play makes him unsuitable for mayor. Everyone knows this, though I think some take it too far. Policy lynching him seems both poor play and in poor taste. Using him as a vehicle for lynchbait/trolling is also pretty shit. I think people attempting to bring Kush into the spotlight are hard pressed to provide a believable town motive. Other than that, there are a lot of people that are sliding around on my scale, but also a lot of undercommitment in posts. If you have a read, please don’t just state your conclusion, as it only begs the question, and junks up the thread with people demanding that you elaborate. You may feel like you’re getting straight to the point #lessismore #quietconfidence but the end result is a less cohesive discussion, and a less effective town. | ||
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I looked at Sharrant's filter and confirmed that I saw absolutely nothing worth talking about. They've been unimpressive, but so have many people. This essentially confirms my suspicions of the accusers, though I cannot remember who they were and am not familiar enough with this site to efficiently find the posts which I refer to. I'm yet to read through again. Does anyone know off the top of their head an easy way to locate who was quoting him, or know was quoting him? Sherrant if you're here I assume you have an intimate knowledge of your accusers? | ||
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On November 16 2013 18:46 Skanjab1s wrote: Ayo, (1) What do you mean by "confirming yamato town"? (2) Why do you find the LM mason incident unsuspicious, and why would finding it suspicious make a person scum? (3) You said "Artanis and SS", but did not mention Artanis. What are your thoughts on him, if you forgot to put them in? (1) - This is my first big game, I'm finding it difficult to get a handle. It is valuable to confirm town so that I have a platform on which to grasp the rest of the game. There is no hard confirmation that Yamato is town, but I'm comfortable betting the fate of town that he is, and will thus use this as an operationalised foundation for my understanding to follow. I do not want Yamato as mayor or pardner, I do not agree with his views of BC, not his views that the pardner role benefits town. I do not trust him to use wither role well. (2) - It's an incident, but I don't see much reason for it to indicate scumminess. There may be some mechanic or rule I am unaware of, but nobody made any good case for this indicating scum-hood. I don't think that this makes Meow town, but those that were pushing for it making him scum were sewing misdirection either intentionally or unintentionally (unless I am wrong to conclude that it's non-alignment indicative, in which case someone should step forward and straighten me out). (3) - Artanis was the one that initiated this line of thought by putting up a hard stance against SS's shock tactics. I was commenting on their disagreement, and thought it worth putting their name in so as not to misconstrue the origin of the thought, since I essentially agree entirely with Artanis and empathise heavily. Artanis gives me a slight town read, but has not contributed heavily enough for me to have any real degree of certainty (#kettleblack). Their attack on SS for reasons other than them being scum could be considered an attempt at deliberately convoluting the thread, except it was teased out of them from an off-hand remark, and they ceased as soon as they could without leaving questions unanswered. | ||
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What are your current plans for mayor? Who are you intending to lynch if you gain the position? Yamato77 Would you be willing to reconsider your BC platform in favour of Grack? If not, could you please consolidate your case on BC so that we can easily assess its merit? At this moment in time I am uncomfortable with your choice of lynch, but am comfortable with you as town. | ||
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Ima go trawl VE's filter. | ||
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BC is the only proclaimed vet that has demonstrated real aptitude to me. This makes me not want to lynch him, but not want him to be mayor. As previously mentioned, this is my first big game, and my first game playing with vets. I don't trust myself to catch him if he's scum, but think him also one of the most dangerous players, and thus a possible NK if town (as well as... you know, being valuable for town in general). Essentially, I want to wait and see, as most people's stances seem heavily influenced by his meta, to which I do not have access. If he is scum we will have enough data to catch him in the end, and if he is town, it's all upside. Any position that makes him either in danger of a lynch, or gives him power, is risky. | ||
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On November 16 2013 19:23 LoneMeow wrote: Wouldn't it be more important to choose a town player as the mayor over someone who might or might not be town but has good-looking lynch targets? If you're so sure yamato is town why wouldn't you want him as the mayor or pardoner over someone you're less sure of? You only considered one side of the incident, what do you think it makes of yamato? I am considering Yamato as mayor, but not with his current platform. If he will change his trajectory he will have my support over VE. What do I think Meow's masoning of yamato makes him? Someone that Town Meow trusts, or scum meow want's to play. What do I think of Yamato giving away that Meow masoned him? I'm not strong on the role mechanics and how their calling interplays with with green/red. I interpret as Yamato's dedication to being open, which has served him well in being confirmed town. It may have been a misplay as town, though probably only a minor one, but it is consistent with his other actions. I can't really think why a scum would want to bring attention to a day1 misplay that can be easily traced back to them, hence I feel it a null read, and go with the other evidence I have which paints him green. Am I missing something? | ||
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This is the first game I've played with elections. In my newbies, the closest thing to mayor was the most prolific poster who wielded the most influence. Am I wrong to think that the mayor wields great influence above and beyond specifically what his role entails? Doesn't he have a lower chance of being lynched considering that he both gets more votes, and has been voted in for being trusted with that power (at least by people who think as I have?). @Kush I understand his criticism, and think it reasonable, though have no clue whether it is contextually accurate (I assume people will pick him up on it if it is not). Your list of scumtells should probably have some inkling of justification, we want more information on you, including your reasons for thinking the things you do. Your status as a wildcard pretty much ensures that people have null reads on you, but makes you susceptible to policy lynches. Essentially, the only people who can legitimately call you one way or another are the scum, so your promise to elaborate on your reads if people think you scummy is empty. I would particularly like to know why you think Mig and Yamato scummy. | ||
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Could you please explain how an RNG lynch is to town's benefit at this point? It seems like it's got a 75% chance of lynching a town and producing no data. How does this compare to the baserate for D1 lynchings? I expect someone advocating a statistical approach would know the benefits and have solid reasoning, otherwise it looks like your D1 actions are a do-nothing fake mayor attempt that you expect nobody to take seriously. | ||
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I'm assuming that Skan's playful dismissal of RNG means that the common perception of RNG is that it is bad, which you'd know, being an old-timer. If you don't have good reasons for RNG, I'm going to need evidence (or witnesses), of you having advocated RNG D1 in previous games, or I'm concluding you scum. | ||
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I need you to touch base. I'm going to give you my vote as a failsafe to being modkilled, but you shan't keep it if you do not respond. | ||
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@all people running for mayor I intend on tearing VE down. I don't want yamato mayor if he's going to kill BC. While the election may seem fairly one-sided, I want to mix it up. If I am successful, this will provide you with opportunity to re-enter the running. Think about getting your shit together. | ||
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I think this post important, as I both want it to be used in shutting down VE's attempt at mayordom, but also potentially later to launch an investigation on him. I've spoilered it as it is large, but do not disregard it please. I've done this entirely through a prolonged filter dive, so there is some information missing. + Show Spoiler + Context: VE has been giving a town vibe to most, including until recently, myself. Skimming the thread he seems to post a lot, and not done anything particularly scummy. It is the accumulation of microswings that has me suspicious. He is currently winning the election, the threat on the table to have him as mayor, and yamato as pardoner. I do not want either of these things to happen. I’m not trying to get him lynched, as I see him as not a threat if scum. He’s giving information too easily so far for him to not be caught. I just want him to not be mayor, and you should too. VE has an eight page filter, which is appropriate since he’s running for mayor. The density of useful information is low, which is not at all appropriate. Page 1 First half page is pregame chatter Second half he launches his platform for candidacy. His platform essentially promises that he will lynch someone, but won’t commit to anything. Good politics, but does not give town anything to work with. He then gives a town read and a thumbs up to yamato, but this is no big deal since yamato is pretty much confirmed town. Page 2 He doesn't like SS's tone, which I agree with, but is fairly easy pickings. + Show Spoiler + He defends his townread on yamato He reprimands yamato's scumcall on Super. Honestly I'd be tempted to call scum here too, but I don't know super. Supersoft's idea that he should be mayor so as he does not get NKed isn't entirely stupid if he has that particular history, that his thinking that we should just agree with him when we don't know his alignment is blatantly retarded. I don't know what I think of lynching Kush yet because Kush hasn't arrived. So I have no opinion of your platform as yet. This seems fake. Even I know of the infamous Kush, and I know that what he does in thread is always going to be difficult to read. People should use policies to deal with unreadable wildcards, not openmindedness. Page 3 He townreads HF from a probable pregame constructed pitch. Sounds like someone trying to sound like he has an opinion. He defends his perspective by saying the point line up with his own pitch, and he knows he's town and so can infer HF's townishess. This should not convince anyone considering the likelihood that the points were made prior to roles being allotted, and the defense is circular logic that relies on us thinking him already town. I do think that the defense does have a egocentric townish gleam to it, but this does little to counter the fact that he endorsed another player for reasons a critical town mind should have considered and rejected. He later addresses this criticism by saying it's possible it was written ingame, but since he does not have that information, this claim is an agnostic one, and does little to justify his town claim which really should come under fire. Scum like to look like town by making reads, but they don't like having to go through the motions of justifying that rationale since that's so much effort wasted. This was a scummy move and it demands more explanation. He then makes this happen: On November 15 2013 10:38 VisceraEyes wrote: I like that people are talking about Sharrant as well. Yes, this is most excellent. Which is an instance I spoke about previously but could not recall who had been in this hunt. I still do not know who he refers to, as I am diving his filter ATM, but this looks like scum seeing that time is being wasted, and encouraging it. At this point, Sharrane had said nothing alignment indicative. they weren't even the least active player, as I hadn't posted yet. People that cherrypick specific but ultimately unjustifiable scumhunting to endorse, but do bugger-all scumhubting themselves, despite having quite probably the largest filter in the game, are not think about what's best for town. People that are not thinking about what's best for town, are not good town. or not town at all. People that are not good town should not be mayor. Page 4 He sets up an irrational reason to butt heads with Mocsta if need be. + Show Spoiler + On November 15 2013 11:11 VisceraEyes wrote: No matter what you do or say, I won't vote you for mayor this game because I hold grudges and last time I gave you the benefit of the doubt I got burned when an ounce of the same from you could have swung the game in our favor; get punished for that act now and it is expunged. That being said, I'm interested to see StorrZerg actually provide some content before deciding whether I think he's mafia - content with regard to others' alignment and what he thinks about it. For a town there is no reason for this, for a mafia, this is a justification to be unreasonable later. Not a town move. He defends Storrzerg from Mocsta, on some fluff laden ground that he may not be new to the game, but is new to the format or some such. Bullshit. I'm way newer than that guys and I'm not shiteating my way into a BPvest by newbclaiming. I din't agree with some of Moc's points, but Storrzerg's noob-spiel was scummy as shit. Claiming otherwise requires remarkable reasoning that is yet to be provided. VE then starts waving sticks at Grack. I don't feel good about Grack, so this is justified in my eyes, but it's damn low-hanging fruit. + Show Spoiler + Even if they are scum team (which I personally need to really consider as I think them both scummy on individual merit), they both know Grack isn't surviving until the end. VE's mayor platform names Grack as a candidate, but vehemently refuses to lock down to one target as this might give scum information. By not naming anyone, a mayor VE can put off killing Grack for 1-3 days easy, maximising confusion and killing the town clock. He then starts making a show of playing nice with Oats (this may have been happening for awhile, my view from the filter is limited). If he didn't make a show of it, I'd get a town read. That he made a show of it, makes is premeditated and worthless in terms of alignment indication. Page 5 He asks Mocsta about Storrzerg, Grack, and HF. More getting other people to do his hunting/reasoning/justification. Note: Why even ask about Grack? I may be being a little narrow-minded, but Grack's status seems objectively unmisinterpretable? If you're town, why ask questions to which you already know the answers? More fluff Page 6 At the top of page 6 of his filter, VE launches his campaign anew, which I think is a good idea if you're planning on evolving to suit your demographic. Good politics. His lynch list is anyone of four people, which IMO is cowardly, though in some ways reasonable. He denies scum info, but doesn't have to make any promises. I personally do not like this, and I have already covered how this could be a powerful scum maneuver. Personally I'm confident I know who he will lynch if he is town, and if it is that obvious then scum could know and it's just poor town play. For reference, his list is Grackaroni, Storrzerg, Sharrant, and Skanjab1s In the same post, he encourages yamato to be an active pardoner, which I think looks scummy. Yamato was straight up and honest about his views on this, and his honesty is making things nice and clear for town that we don't want him as pardoner. Ve is encouraging someone to make anti-town actions, and will later be able to criticise the specifics of those actions if they turn out poorly. "I wanted you to use the power, but not to save a scummer!' He then, over the course of defending his decision to back yamato as pardoner, realises that both the mayor and pardoner get vests. I don't know what to make of this, I could probably paint this red, but I don't thinks it's indicative. Nudges yamato for mason information. More externalising the hunt. He adds Pardain to the list. I don't know how I feel about the fact that it's Pardain, since to my knowledge Pardain has not done anything noteworthy. I do not like that he's further expanding his lynch options. Gives BC and Mocsta a town read. Page 8 His new list: Skanjab, Pandain, and Sharrant. Are you kidding? I though Grack the obvious pick since the rest were no names.. Storrzerg is still on my to-do list, but he's not nearly of the same magnitude of scumminess as Grack. Now he's taken off both my scummy picks to put up a solid list of people of whom I do not recall a single thing? Sure they're not confirmed town, but how about an actual case for anyone of them being scum? Conclusion: The game VE plays is entirely political. He's keeping options open, and manipulating the town environment. He hasn't made any reasonable plays at cases, just held up lures to see which bait will get him elected. "Will any of you vote for me if I say that I might lynch X?" He hasn't done any town work that demonstrates town thought. He's shaped our hunt under the guise of pro-town sentiment. He's not putting himself in a position to be held accountable for his actions. He's no longer even contemplating lynching anyone I think particularly scummy. He's been very active but achieved very little. I think him scummy, but not necessarily a day 1 lynch. His momentum will get him caught if I am right and he is scum, but in the immediate, I absolutely do not want this person as my mayor. This is even more important, in that VE getting mayor puts Yamato as pardoner. I don't mind Yamato as mayor nearly as much as I do VE, but I'm happy for him to be out of the running entirely if someone else can step up. | ||
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On November 16 2013 23:20 Mig wrote: I have struggled to get over how ridiculously dumb the hunt scum/for scum point was. I also think it was the extreme of nitpicking. I agreed with some other points, but Mig is not alone on this. READ MY CASE. | ||
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Can someone give me an estimate of how long until the election? I have no idea how to read/interpret global time readouts. The way I thought intuitive turned up an impossible result. I'll try to turn up sometime before the election... but this isn't boding well for my sleeps... | ||
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I'll still be checking in everynow and then as I write this campaign, but my responses may be short. | ||
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I don't care if you think he's scum right now, as proving him scum in the immediate is not my intention. I just want him not to be mayor (or pardoner if it comes down to it). | ||
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On November 16 2013 23:50 Mig wrote: I read it, I agree with some of the points. Especially removing Grack/Storr from his lynch candidates with little to no explanation is weird to me. Other points are cherry picking tho, asking people their thoughts on Grack is a good thing. Forces people to take a side and gives you more information to define your read with. Overall even though VE hasn't made any strong cases the questions he asks are good and I think are generally leading the town discussion in a good direction. Right now I am still open to voting VE but I am considering voting BC also. Hmmm I'm not comfortable with BC, but that's better that VE IMO. The questions he asks are cherrypicking, and the environment he creates is one that looks like a town one, but without information on who is actually scum, they could all be false leads. As before, I don't need to convince you he's scum, only that he has in no way proved himself townish, or useful to town, and is setting up to be a very dangerous mayor. Asking thoughts on Grack isn't so bad, but it's seriously not that useful. I would like to hear anyone prove me wrong by saying something positive about Grack, other than Grack himself. VE is merely looking useful while not putting in townish thought. | ||
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On November 16 2013 23:53 Mocsta wrote: Spaghetticus I am finding you hard to read. Posts are verbose and complicated -- everything I expect from a scum spag trying to bamboozle the thread. Have a go at this: You haven't played the game for at least 6 months. VE has been playing for more than 6 months. 1/3 of the thread thinks VE is not only town, but a strong enough candidate to be voted mayor. Some of those may even be players that you think are town and possibly respect. Why would you try and smear his campaign? Is this guy really your best scum read that you are willing to shit the thread up to smite VE? I don't get a Spag that is town would do this... because I sure as hell know this is how scum spag likes to play. You know I'm always fairly articulate and value precision. My posts are dense but difficult to misconstrue. I also feel that since there are so few of them, they are worth the effort to read, but also partly make up for my time difficulties. I'm sorry but arguments that appeal to authority rarely sway me. If there are reasons why you guys think he is town, state them. If you can't think of any reasons, reevaluate. Why would I try to smear his campaign? Well... I'm not advocating any candidate in particular, which rules out a scum power play. By leaving it open-ended however, you could interpret it (as you have) that I am trying to cause discord. This is possible, but I think you're overestimating my previous impact. Out of the games I have played, three have been town. Out of those games, I almost always sit around spellchecking until I think I've gathered enough information to make a case, whereby I try to make it count for as much as possible. These cases often fly in the face of common town sentiment, whiteknighting the picked upon players, for instance, and painting their accusers as manipulators. I have very little recollection of our scum game together, though I remember bits and pieces. + Show Spoiler + We were massively behind due to the third scummer making a dodgy move then AFKing. We got JSL to step in and help but ultimately lost. I can't recall what my plan for getting us out of that pickle was, but I know that it didn't go well. Bugger it, I'm going to look it up so I don't look foolish, but srsly this is hurting my time. THIS was our scum QT. Oats was in that game too, in fact, I was replacing Kush, so that's two more who may be able to verify. My style in that game was to rip into my scum buddies (in which case we should still kill VE). We were essentially killed by a lucky cop. I don't think there was any point at which I tried to create mayhem by making conflated cases on town. What I remember most about that game was feeling that all the town were so obviously town to me, how could I possibly make a decent case that sounded believable? At any rate, you and I Mocsta, have a history of always thinking each other scum and being overly paranoid. I was hoping that given our most recent scumming together I could come into this game confident that I'd be able to spot you if you were scum, but someone said you'd got quite good at it, which is unfortunate. Nevertheless I still think you townish, and would have you as mayor over VE, and probably over Yamato depending on who you're planning to lynch. [actually now reading Artanis' post, I'm doubtful again]. Artanis, thankyou. Your read is very accurate, and Mocsta should be able to verify (if he's not trying to create discord) that I am a particularly paranoid player, though I think myself perhaps less paranoid than in my newbies. I think Mocsta's reaction is consistent with our prior interactions in our newbies, but not with the experience Mocsta is supposed to have accumulated since then, which has given me new doubts. | ||
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Shitting up the thread? I call bullshit. You're forcing this angle too hard for a post you failed to read. how do you know if I'm shitting things up if you haven't even read it, I hope you read the conclusion, otherwise you might just be misconstruing my entire intention *barely concealed sarcasm* -_- You didn't "query"... you dismissed, and you admit you haven't read it so I think I'm justified in adding that you did so prematurely. That you think you have any leg to stand on for attacking me for this post is... well... it blows my mind regardless of your alignment. | ||
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I think Artanis has good points. I'm less confident, mainly because of our history and my meta read on you, but you are looking more scummy to me. Unfortunately this looks pretty weak given that pretty much only just changed my mind. You do play with far too much melodrama. | ||
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I find it suspicious that you wouldn't even address my attack. This seems to me like someone micromanaging their image. I attacked you... a lot. You know that I've failed to gain traction, and that you feel comfortable in your current position, but a town should be willing to enter in discourse simply to provide info to the rest of town, and to dispel misgivings. You do not consider me a threat, and as a scum you would want to veer away from explaining yourself for fear of being bogged into providing real information. You also haven't come up with any real reasons for any of your lynch options. Your scumhunting has been zero. | ||
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You're making an enemy. I suppose you still don't care... How is that a townish outlook? Nobody has ever given me more reason to tunnel than you. Gratz. | ||
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What is so obvious to everyone else that I don't see? | ||
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That lynch confirmed that I was right to not want him mayor at the very least. I'm struggling to see how he could possibly be town, though I'm willing to admit that there may be some meta thang the rest of you have access to, like in the case of BH. | ||
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I would have switched my vote to you if it would have done something. I rushed in with half a minute to vote (making my D&D session wait), and my vote would have made them even, but with you being the second 'winner' you still would have ended up as pardoner. *sigh* no use crying over spilt milk... I'm glad you ended up as pardoner though. I know yamato said that he would only use the power in extreme circumstances, but I like not having to even think about it. I assume you won't be using the power? | ||
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The mayor mislynching does not make someone scum, but that's not what I was saying... so... He chose to kill the only other person on his arse. I'd really like to see anything that singled Skanjab out for scum other than that he did not like VE. There were plenty of candidates... He's not playing a town game, he's playing a VE game, and that could quite possibly mean a scum game. | ||
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Why did people want him mayor? Honestly, I'm at a loss. | ||
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On November 17 2013 23:40 OOHCHILD wrote: mocsta not meaning to defend grack right now, but I think you are misreading that. His point is that vayne is not steering town at all. He is saying that it's the steering that makes Vayne town, the fact that it is in the wrong direction is just an extension of him being scum. He isn't making any assumption about the correctness of vayne's reads this game. ^ You beat me to it. Mocsta, whether it be deliberate to give you wriggleroom in your meta or not, your cases spend far too much time honing in on ambiguous phrasing to be taken seriously. There are so many reasons why Grack is scummy, that you pick this one makes me almost think you want to make the evidence holistically weaker. He said that when Vayne is scum, he tries to steer town astray. That's a hypothetical situation right there. He's making a statement about what Vayne does when Vayne is scum. Given the context of the post, we can assume he does not think Vayne scum, because Vayne is not directing traffic at all… | ||
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Honestly I think people put too much weight on metas, particularly since every game when someone is discussed they have all their tells given to them. If only there were some way for an intelligent organism to adjust their behaviour to adapt to environmental input? | ||
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On November 17 2013 23:26 Mocsta wrote: Artanis won't believe yoiu just said that... ohh my my Spag A mayor choosing a mislynch does not equate to the mayor being scum. Get over it. This? I responded with On November 17 2013 23:30 Spaghetticus wrote: Mocsta The mayor mislynching does not make someone scum, but that's not what I was saying... so... He chose to kill the only other person on his arse. I'd really like to see anything that singled Skanjab out for scum other than that he did not like VE. There were plenty of candidates... He's not playing a town game, he's playing a VE game, and that could quite possibly mean a scum game. It's not like I didn't think him scum before his massively petty and bad mislynch... Why did people want him mayor? Honestly, I'm at a loss. Oh the Artanis thing? Your red was broken. I don't understand what you mean. What's the issue? | ||
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When you spend as long as he is putting in effort to have a presence, but do diddly fuck-all to hunt scum or actually further the hunt in a direct alignment indicative way, you are not portraying yourself as town. All of his contributions have been second hand, guiding the hunt rather than participating in it. When I demanded that he answer for his lack of contribution in contrast to the apparent effort he's putting into his election platform, he blatantly refused to even partake in discussion. He knows he can get away with not discussing his contribution (he's getting away with it right now), and he does not want to be analysed #scummyplays Furthermore, I shouldn't really have to explain this all again. I've done an exhaustive filter dive and given a lot of my reasoning. You complained about me clogging up the thread with it (without reading it), and now ask for me to repeat it? + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2013 23:20 Spaghetticus wrote: My preliminary case on VE I think this post important, as I both want it to be used in shutting down VE's attempt at mayordom, but also potentially later to launch an investigation on him. I've spoilered it as it is large, but do not disregard it please. I've done this entirely through a prolonged filter dive, so there is some information missing. + Show Spoiler + Context: VE has been giving a town vibe to most, including until recently, myself. Skimming the thread he seems to post a lot, and not done anything particularly scummy. It is the accumulation of microswings that has me suspicious. He is currently winning the election, the threat on the table to have him as mayor, and yamato as pardoner. I do not want either of these things to happen. I’m not trying to get him lynched, as I see him as not a threat if scum. He’s giving information too easily so far for him to not be caught. I just want him to not be mayor, and you should too. VE has an eight page filter, which is appropriate since he’s running for mayor. The density of useful information is low, which is not at all appropriate. Page 1 First half page is pregame chatter Second half he launches his platform for candidacy. His platform essentially promises that he will lynch someone, but won’t commit to anything. Good politics, but does not give town anything to work with. He then gives a town read and a thumbs up to yamato, but this is no big deal since yamato is pretty much confirmed town. Page 2 He doesn't like SS's tone, which I agree with, but is fairly easy pickings. + Show Spoiler + He defends his townread on yamato He reprimands yamato's scumcall on Super. Honestly I'd be tempted to call scum here too, but I don't know super. Supersoft's idea that he should be mayor so as he does not get NKed isn't entirely stupid if he has that particular history, that his thinking that we should just agree with him when we don't know his alignment is blatantly retarded. I don't know what I think of lynching Kush yet because Kush hasn't arrived. So I have no opinion of your platform as yet. This seems fake. Even I know of the infamous Kush, and I know that what he does in thread is always going to be difficult to read. People should use policies to deal with unreadable wildcards, not openmindedness. Page 3 He townreads HF from a probable pregame constructed pitch. Sounds like someone trying to sound like he has an opinion. He defends his perspective by saying the point line up with his own pitch, and he knows he's town and so can infer HF's townishess. This should not convince anyone considering the likelihood that the points were made prior to roles being allotted, and the defense is circular logic that relies on us thinking him already town. I do think that the defense does have a egocentric townish gleam to it, but this does little to counter the fact that he endorsed another player for reasons a critical town mind should have considered and rejected. He later addresses this criticism by saying it's possible it was written ingame, but since he does not have that information, this claim is an agnostic one, and does little to justify his town claim which really should come under fire. Scum like to look like town by making reads, but they don't like having to go through the motions of justifying that rationale since that's so much effort wasted. This was a scummy move and it demands more explanation. He then makes this happen: On November 15 2013 10:38 VisceraEyes wrote: I like that people are talking about Sharrant as well. Yes, this is most excellent. Which is an instance I spoke about previously but could not recall who had been in this hunt. I still do not know who he refers to, as I am diving his filter ATM, but this looks like scum seeing that time is being wasted, and encouraging it. At this point, Sharrane had said nothing alignment indicative. they weren't even the least active player, as I hadn't posted yet. People that cherrypick specific but ultimately unjustifiable scumhunting to endorse, but do bugger-all scumhubting themselves, despite having quite probably the largest filter in the game, are not think about what's best for town. People that are not thinking about what's best for town, are not good town. or not town at all. People that are not good town should not be mayor. Page 4 He sets up an irrational reason to butt heads with Mocsta if need be. + Show Spoiler + On November 15 2013 11:11 VisceraEyes wrote: No matter what you do or say, I won't vote you for mayor this game because I hold grudges and last time I gave you the benefit of the doubt I got burned when an ounce of the same from you could have swung the game in our favor; get punished for that act now and it is expunged. That being said, I'm interested to see StorrZerg actually provide some content before deciding whether I think he's mafia - content with regard to others' alignment and what he thinks about it. For a town there is no reason for this, for a mafia, this is a justification to be unreasonable later. Not a town move. He defends Storrzerg from Mocsta, on some fluff laden ground that he may not be new to the game, but is new to the format or some such. Bullshit. I'm way newer than that guys and I'm not shiteating my way into a BPvest by newbclaiming. I din't agree with some of Moc's points, but Storrzerg's noob-spiel was scummy as shit. Claiming otherwise requires remarkable reasoning that is yet to be provided. VE then starts waving sticks at Grack. I don't feel good about Grack, so this is justified in my eyes, but it's damn low-hanging fruit. + Show Spoiler + Even if they are scum team (which I personally need to really consider as I think them both scummy on individual merit), they both know Grack isn't surviving until the end. VE's mayor platform names Grack as a candidate, but vehemently refuses to lock down to one target as this might give scum information. By not naming anyone, a mayor VE can put off killing Grack for 1-3 days easy, maximising confusion and killing the town clock. He then starts making a show of playing nice with Oats (this may have been happening for awhile, my view from the filter is limited). If he didn't make a show of it, I'd get a town read. That he made a show of it, makes is premeditated and worthless in terms of alignment indication. Page 5 He asks Mocsta about Storrzerg, Grack, and HF. More getting other people to do his hunting/reasoning/justification. Note: Why even ask about Grack? I may be being a little narrow-minded, but Grack's status seems objectively unmisinterpretable? If you're town, why ask questions to which you already know the answers? More fluff Page 6 At the top of page 6 of his filter, VE launches his campaign anew, which I think is a good idea if you're planning on evolving to suit your demographic. Good politics. His lynch list is anyone of four people, which IMO is cowardly, though in some ways reasonable. He denies scum info, but doesn't have to make any promises. I personally do not like this, and I have already covered how this could be a powerful scum maneuver. Personally I'm confident I know who he will lynch if he is town, and if it is that obvious then scum could know and it's just poor town play. For reference, his list is Grackaroni, Storrzerg, Sharrant, and Skanjab1s In the same post, he encourages yamato to be an active pardoner, which I think looks scummy. Yamato was straight up and honest about his views on this, and his honesty is making things nice and clear for town that we don't want him as pardoner. Ve is encouraging someone to make anti-town actions, and will later be able to criticise the specifics of those actions if they turn out poorly. "I wanted you to use the power, but not to save a scummer!' He then, over the course of defending his decision to back yamato as pardoner, realises that both the mayor and pardoner get vests. I don't know what to make of this, I could probably paint this red, but I don't thinks it's indicative. Nudges yamato for mason information. More externalising the hunt. He adds Pardain to the list. I don't know how I feel about the fact that it's Pardain, since to my knowledge Pardain has not done anything noteworthy. I do not like that he's further expanding his lynch options. Gives BC and Mocsta a town read. Page 8 His new list: Skanjab, Pandain, and Sharrant. Are you kidding? I though Grack the obvious pick since the rest were no names.. Storrzerg is still on my to-do list, but he's not nearly of the same magnitude of scumminess as Grack. Now he's taken off both my scummy picks to put up a solid list of people of whom I do not recall a single thing? Sure they're not confirmed town, but how about an actual case for anyone of them being scum? Conclusion: The game VE plays is entirely political. He's keeping options open, and manipulating the town environment. He hasn't made any reasonable plays at cases, just held up lures to see which bait will get him elected. "Will any of you vote for me if I say that I might lynch X?" He hasn't done any town work that demonstrates town thought. He's shaped our hunt under the guise of pro-town sentiment. He's not putting himself in a position to be held accountable for his actions. He's no longer even contemplating lynching anyone I think particularly scummy. He's been very active but achieved very little. I think him scummy, but not necessarily a day 1 lynch. His momentum will get him caught if I am right and he is scum, but in the immediate, I absolutely do not want this person as my mayor. This is even more important, in that VE getting mayor puts Yamato as pardoner. I don't mind Yamato as mayor nearly as much as I do VE, but I'm happy for him to be out of the running entirely if someone else can step up. + Show Spoiler + On November 17 2013 01:36 Spaghetticus wrote: You're making an enemy. I suppose you still don't care... How is that a townish outlook? Nobody has ever given me more reason to tunnel than you. Gratz. + Show Spoiler + On November 17 2013 23:30 Spaghetticus wrote: Mocsta The mayor mislynching does not make someone scum, but that's not what I was saying... so... He chose to kill the only other person on his arse. I'd really like to see anything that singled Skanjab out for scum other than that he did not like VE. There were plenty of candidates... He's not playing a town game, he's playing a VE game, and that could quite possibly mean a scum game. Mocsta you need to put some effort into confirming yourself town. Your posturing has been sloppy, you're on my scumdar. I don't want to drill you since we're buds, but at this point you're starting to give me no choice. | ||
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I won't deliberately hold back, but we've never actually been on different sides before. I'm getting all teary even thinking of your sudden but inevitable betrayal. I'm not committing to taking him down now, I've actually stopped movements in that direction since I don't think the town is ready to come around to my perspective on him. I'm not someone that goes easily into tunnel mode, I'm paranoid remember? My mindset in one in which there are no certainties. That all said, I have never had as much of a read on anyone as I do on VE. I want people to know that I want him dead, as I would use the term 'sheeple' to describe the current town zeitgeist. with far less post-ironic intent than I feel comfortable with, and I don't want people to get caught up in his influence. I don't care about his meta, if your meta is to tick every box on the scum checklist then it's not my bloody fault if you get lynched. Hopefully he'll reconsider his meta once he's dead in the unlikely case that he is actually town. I'm currently doing some ToM math which I'd like to keep private. I'll get to you if you keep it up, I'm not worried so much about you since you're actually receiving the attention you deserve. | ||
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People I'm fucking wired. Talk to me guys. | ||
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I don't find any one post particularly scumtelling. Probably the biggest swing in my perception was when Storrzerg claimed noob. I haven't followed him up since, figuring his input has been fairly limited and if someone prompts me it won't take long to be up to date. | ||
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On November 18 2013 01:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: Ugh what's this? Why wouldn't assasins play like town? Like if they get shot during the night just not claim you were shot? Are scum gonna claim they did shoot you or what? I would assume that assassins play like town, but probably hold back a little to avoid being so valuable as to warrant an NK. They don't know who the scum are, so they won't give scumtells. Given that they only have one KP, I assume they prioritise outlasting the other assassin rather than actually finding and killing them. | ||
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Until that point, it's not worth thinking about, let alone talking about. | ||
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On November 18 2013 01:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: I wasn't the one who said "i have an assasin read on this guy" based on bad assumptions. I don't even know why I was posting that message to. I saw someone saying not to talk about assassins, then someone say something about assassins. It was just a general "stop it". | ||
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I was feeling really enthusiastic, but I haven't gained traction and while now I'm better read, I haven't really found anything that's given me real insight. I'll F5 the thread whenever I ADHD, so feel free to leave questions. Mocsta how do you function at work when you go to bed so late? | ||
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On November 18 2013 02:25 Onegu wrote: I feel I should have more than only 4 page filter atm :/ ok need to be more active. I prefer quality. I think I've only got a 4 page filter, but Moc thinks my effort excessive. Substance>filtersize. | ||
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On November 18 2013 03:29 Risen wrote: Meh, don't blame you VE for being a knucklehead. Not who I would have killed, but I didn't run for mayor. Up next to kill should be yamato/OOHCHILD/HF You think Yamato scum? Why? Do you actually think OOHCHILD scum, or are you more of a policy lynch sorta guy? | ||
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On November 18 2013 04:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also agree with Mocsta's post. Not that Spag was "shitting up the thread" but other points. Mocsta knows me better than anyone here. We've played 3-4 games together. Spaghetticus I am finding you hard to read. Posts are verbose and complicated-- everything I expect from a scum spag trying to bamboozle the thread. Have a go at this: You haven't played the game for at least 6 months. VE has been playing for more than 6 months. 1/3 of the thread thinks VE is not only town, but a strong enough candidate to be voted mayor. Some of those may even be players that you think are town and possibly respect. Why would you try and smear his campaign? Is this guy really your best scum read that you are willing to shit the thread up to smite VE? I don't get a Spag that is town would do this... because I sure as hell know this is how scum spag likes to play. Mocsta knows how I write. I like to use flowery language, I like to be very precise, and I like to distinguish myself with comprehensive analysis. This shit is Spag101. That he would paint this behaviour as in anyway suspicious is massively scummy. It's the equivalent of accusing Kush of being too random to be town. He accuses me of shitting up the thread even though I spoilered the post, had a very small filter, and he later claimed to not have read it (and thus not knowing whether it was fluff or not). Claiming not to have read it is also contradicting his previous reply to my allcaps proposition that he read my case, to which he responded that he had. He also tried to make it sound like I was trying to get VE lynched, when at the time I was only trying to take him out of the mayor race. I made this abundantly clear in my case title and disclaimer, Mocsta did not have to click in the spoiler to find my intentions. Finally, he tries to claim that a town spag would not do this. He knows I'm a paranoid player, and that I usually try to cover the stuff the rest of town seems to be missing. I don't like covering ground other people are already attending to. He's experienced my town play and knows that this is precisely how I operate. I can't remember if I pulled a similar stunt in my one scum game, but neither myself nor Mocsta can recall. I am open enough to give the scum QT in which anyone can look for themselves, at which point Mocsta backed down entirely. His attack on me was malicious, and he did not believe his own words enough to even care to look in the QT I linked. + Show Spoiler + Perhaps he doesn't want to bring attention to how he operates as scum. I know Mocsta likes to exaggerate his claims a lot, but this was retarded and baseless. It's fairly obvious he wanted to discredit me and/or paint me as scum without justification, both of which are really fucking suspicious. He did not critically inspect the material that he was trying to look like he was critically inspecting, and that is scummy. | ||
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On November 18 2013 05:57 raynpelikoneet wrote: Spaghetticus is there any reason why you are refusing to give your thoughts on Austin? I don't really have any. My sphere of focus lies elsewhere. There are far too many people in this game for me to keep tabs. | ||
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How does one get elected mayor without giving a single read? | ||
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On November 18 2013 07:26 Alakaslam wrote: Then you should be suspicious of Austinmcc- I helped him put SuperSoft up and he switched to VE on me. That might be worth looking up for me later, but at the moment I'm flamboozled. That's one person that voted for the guy, I need to explain a total of nine. Short of the six scum, two assassins, and some random town fool voting him up, I can't really assume that anyone voting him is scum. | ||
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