Marvellosity: holyflare/austin mason day1/night1
Holyflare: Hey, I'll be out for a bit but I really would like to discuss some things with you as you are the player who is seemingly most on my wavelength right now. I did ask to be masoned a lot earlier but marv is a slacker :/
Austinmcc: Howdy! Marv is definitely a slacker.
Sorry about that, was away for a tiny bit this morning EST. I'm around for the rest of the cycle. I'm catching up on the last 10 pages or so and seeing if anything really jumps out at me. Zen I shall make much chat!
Holyflare: There are so many lurkers in this game it annoys me. Anywho, in those lurkers I definitely think at least one or 2 are scum, namely; hopeless and mattchew. Their meta has just shifted so wildly it is hard to assume they are not mafia.
Either way, I've just got back too and I've pretty much caught up now. Things that strike me as very odd are:
1. Onegu random tunnel on me. He's either just misreading what I'm saying which seems to probably be the case - he's much more vocal in this game than i've seen him before or he's trying to associate with rayn in some way.
2. Mocsta, dear god how he has devolved. yamato was defending him saying that he gets like this as town but this mocsta is just way too defensive and critical of other people, he isn't developing reads he's just stating things that he looks at and gets aggressive when there are people disagreeing. Yamato comes out suspicious for defending him and also for disregarding any and all chat about LM who I think can do what he does as any alignment. LM has posted more though and I haven't really looked into it so I'm tentative for now.
3. VE and skanjabs, I think skanjabs is actually looking increasingly towny coming out of that whole discussion. VE is just policy lynching lurkers and has not really come up with anything solid for now, especially as his mayor campaign stated that he was amazing at finding scum etc etc.
4. There are some people that look very towny now, which I am pleased about but I'd like to hear your opinions when you have caught up.
Austinmcc: Okay. Filtering these players: mocsta, Hiro, Yamato, Pandain, Storr, Oats, Sharrant, HolyFlare, Koshi, Artanis, Skanwhatever, Spaggheticus.
I have missed a bunch today, but in general I have been interested in just making some tentative reads on people I trust and think might be around for a little bit. Most of the people I've questioned, even without followup, are me poking around for reads on them and trying to see where this game goes. I don't believe I will be mayor today, so I'm more concerned about future days than D1, and getting some townies I trust seems like a good idea for that.
Right now, I have a decent townread on Risen. I poked at him a little bit and I liked his answers, and have liked his posts. I believe I trust Koshi, he posted nonsense about yamato and longmeow being masoned, asking why would LM be town for this when it was clearly posted in thread a bunch of times. For me, strongly questioning something that has been heavily explained in thread (without seeming to have read thread), comes off a little townie, because I don't anticipate mafia putting effort into asking about things that have been explained. It's wasted effort, and they come off looking odd for it, rather than blending in. Gonna zero in on a couple other reads over this next bit.
Austinmcc: Also I am spammy in QTs, sorry in advance!
Holyflare: ditto
the more we post the more of a feel we can get for each other at least!
Austinmcc: I will admit to having no particular megasuspicions at this point. Is there anyone in particular you want thoughts on or want to push as a lynch/scummy person for lynch tomorrow?
Holyflare: What do you think of yamato?
Austinmcc: Reading now.
Holyflare: I admit I haven't read his filter yet, just been going by what I've seen in thread.
Austinmcc: I'm okay with Yamato after looking him over. He hasn't done much, which is butt, but his major early scumreads were grack and BC. He backtracked on BOTH, said they started to look townier. I don't expect him to tunnel people as scum, but he could legitimately maintain either of those two players as scumreads npnp if he were scum, he doesn't need to swap reads on them, and it doesn't really seem sensible.
In a normal lynch, i could see the argument maybe one of them is scum, he was poking at them, things went too far and now he's worried they'll get lynched, but VE is a relatively clear mayor choice here and yamato knows VE isn't lynching those two. So he's got no reason to swap those reads, imo, if he's mafia.
He's also had a couple minor things, in a big summary of his catching up at one point, he picks out a decent artanis post, and notes he disagrees with one bit of it but agrees with a number of others. I kind of like that as a townie-ish post.
austinmcc: I gotta swap over real quick, poke at Artanis a little more, read a few more things, but I'm going to run for pardoner. I haven't pushed it because I got tied up yesterday and this morning, but I do want to push it now.
Holyflare: I'm not sure I like rayn anymore. After the whole thing with me it felt exactly the same "pressure" that he was doing to me in World Heavyweight Championship (he was scum). He did originally like I say display a townlike mindset but the fact that it went on for so long, and that he is STILL wanting for a lynch on me despite being shut down is just leaving a very sour taste in my mind. He's saying people (Onegu, Risen) are making great points in favour of him but if he read them they don't make sense.
Holyflare: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...user=raynpelikoneetThis is the WHC filter for him.
Austinmcc: rayn is not particularly townie for me. He picked some easy targets in an early reads post, and hasn't really done much beyond antagonize folks. While he hammered at you for a long time, he did so over the "lie", and I agreed with Artanis that it was a strange thing to really focus on --> why would scum just straight make something up, then continuously reference it?
Plus I do think Koshi is town, koshi started getting real scummy on rayn, I think making a couple solid points.
So ... yeah. I dunno exactly about his normal scum play, think I've only ever played with townrayn and also normally find townrayn scummy, but he's not being very constructive here.
Holyflare: Koshi is 100% town, I have never been able to read koshi but this game it has just clicked, maybe because I've played 2 or 3 games with him. I liked your points on him and they agree with what I was thinking when he posted them. I think he is a bit TOO tunneled on rayn at the moment though. I would actually be comfortable voting him into pardoner
Holyflare: you said you were reading mocsta? Did you get anywhere with that because I think i'm going to go hardcore for mayor in a bit and mocsta/rayn would be my choices of lynch because I don't want to do what VE is doing and lynch into lurkers
Austinmcc: There's nothing in his filter really for me. I think he misrepresented some stuff from storrzerg early on, but not in a way that screams scum. I agree with artanis that some of his poking has looked a bit opportunistic, but when I read mocsta's filter, I'm not really sold at him being scummy.
The only scum game I remember of mocsta's was one of his newbies and I was coaching town. He was relatively adept at....trying to do a thing, trying to post a certain way in order to get to x or y later down the road. I don't know if that's a constant theme of his games, but it made me think that he plays a scumgame aimed at setting up lynches/thoughts/pitting people against each other, and I don't get much of that from his play this game.
Austinmcc: Do you think VE is mafia/assassin? If you think he's town, he's a fine mayor to have and I don't mind having him in that spot.
Holyflare: I'm not sure on him, I mean, yeh he's pointed town in a direction a few times and at the start I was like, shit I'm gonna mason that guy but then since that he has fallen off to what I see as a backseat, it's like he established a townieness and when people were like "yeh that guys town" he was like job done I'm going to let them scramble themselves because I'm clean now. His lynches are all lurkers and so obviously anyone can do that, I wanted him to actually vote something other than a lurker and give us a read which he has neglected to do. I agree he wouldn't be a terrible candidate but I'm a bit biased to myself/others with similar reads to me.
If I were to vote you who would your list be?
Austinmcc: I don't think I can make it all the way to mayor, I believe VE is locked in the slot and not worth making a stink over so long as he does SOMETHING.
My #1 lynch is probably...cheesecake actually. He's barely barely here, but has popped up ... 5 times that I count, sometimes for ~40 minutes (See his posts Nov. 16, 1:15 --> 1:57), but has said NOTHING of substance. He reads, he's commented on a couple things, but has done NOTHING and seems to have no intention of doing anything. I recently played a game with scumcheese, and he felt similar there, was absolutely just not a presence until his team started losing hard, bussed a teammate, and then continued to lurk and do nothing.
rayn is another option, but there are SO MANY inactives, I would like to lynch into them ... i THINK.
Holyflare: I was going to say that we could double lynch into lurkers if needs be later. cheesecake..... has been like.. well I haven't seen anything he's written lol :D didn't even remember him posting..I think I might end up voting into VE for posterity's sake though if my campaign falls flat on its face. Might not have time to finish a concinving case on who I want lynched and so I guess VE might be my option. That being said, he looks like a shoe in at the moment and I'm not sure I want yamato to be pardoner as he was quite open about using his power was he not? Not sure I can be entirely comfortable with him doing that and I may actually end up masoning him next cycle if he does get it to see his thought processes.
Austinmcc: He was. If he's town, he's maybe a good mason target except that he may reveal you (which isn't TOO big a deal, honestly, mason is nice but not absurd). He's normally not awful, has solid thoughts, and would be a good person to mason with if you think he's town and maybe if he thinks you're town.
I would honestly suggest not trying a last minute campaign. Enough lurky people and enough people happy with VE that, at best, your goal would be to look townie because what mafia would suddenly run a big campaign at the end of the day. But i THINK that people would prefer vests on folks they've played with more, or who have a bajillion games, because that's USUALLY the way elections work out, well-known veteran players get the votes.
e:This was about yamato.
Holyflare: Do you agree that yamato would be a better mayor and VE a better pardoner?
Austinmcc: Nah. I have some faith in yamato, but less than I have in VE. And I don't anticipate yamato being a super mega must-kill for scum. Even if he's town, I don't think they're overly worried about yamato-mayor, or bulletproof-yamato. I would rather the vests go on other folks, and would rather give VE a double-vote later than yamato.
I don't really worry about what anyone says they'd do as pardoner. I don't think they actually know what they'd do in any situation, and ANYONE considering activating pardoner is already saying they'd put their judgment ahead of town as a whole. Barring a cop check or something that gives a strong reason for that, I think anyone willing to put their judgment ahead of town is also willing to lie to town about whether they would/wouldn't use it. I just don't much care what anyone says about pardoner use because of that.
Holyflare: Alright, I've never played a mayor game before so I'm a bit aprehensive at the moment, don't want things to go wrong later in the game. I'm liking supersoft a lot more now though. I've played 1 or 2 games with him and I did a lot of reading in those games around him and he is now looking like the town SS I played with in hogwarts (I was scum and killed him because of that).
Holyflare: His dickish behaviour was also demonstrated in town games and not so much scum games.
Austinmcc: Supersoft looks pretty townie and is normally solid, but I would like to see a mayor who can build consensus and ... have dialogues with people. I dunno, some is just I have more games with VE and feel like I can chat with him/read him/influence him more.
Ultimately, I have only seen the mayor be SUPER effective in one game, and otherwise it's not been a major factor after the D1 lynch, which is often a crapshoot even with all of town in on it. I wouldn't let the specifics of the setup or any roles weigh you down. Scum will still do scummy stuff and get caught. Even if they're in elected official roles. Or at least that's been my experience...had I think a scum mayor in some game a long ways back, LX, or something before LX or...something.
e:nm, it was LV.
Holyflare: No, I fully agree, I'll vote for VE if he isn't in the mayor slot. I'm just thinking about a SS pardoner, more for the vest like he implied at the start of the game rather than the power.
Marvellosity: /m29 hi
Austinmcc: /m31 I ALMOST STARTED THIS CHAT BY NOTING THAT THE LAST TIME I WAS IN A MASON CHAT WITH MARV HE WAS MAFIA AND RUINED THE WHOLE DAMN GAME. DON'T EVEN START. I WILL LYNCH YOU AS HOST.
Ugh. Stupid first big game. So close.
Don't ever trust anything marv says. Ever.
Also, we need to mildly crumb that we were masoned at some point today, and point each other to the crumbs. It ain't much, but if you eer have to claim, i can back it up or you can point to my crumb and back it up.
Holyflare: I dunno address me in some way in the thread, and I'll post a toy story song reference or something :D "you've got a friend in me!"
Holyflare: also marv fu go do your job and post the vote count in thread
Austinmcc: I LIKE THIS GUY. YEAH! F U MARV.
WE'LL TALK ABOUT YOUR PAST INDISCRETIONS LATER, BECAUSE I NEVER FAIL TO BRING IT UP WHEN ARGUING WITH YOU.
Marvellosity: I only said hi :<
Austinmcc: <3.
Mmmm hmmm. Hi in reference to that game.
Marvellosity: I was hi-ing the super-effective mayor.
Not the time I bumraped you in LV.
Marvellosity: Anyway I'm totally not here. Carry on, sorry.
Austinmcc: Any thoughts on VE ... telling people to vote SS?
I'm mildly confused by this, and if he didn't look townie I would find it very, very scummy. Just the way he's half-stepping-down, without explaining any reads, whether he thinks SS's analysis is ACTUALLY good this game, anything. If he says he's not confident, or that he was looking at x/y/z, but doesn't feel super good, I'd be okay.
But I don't understand this. I can't slot it as either very scummy OR townie, it's just...anomalous. Any thoughts?
Austinmcc: Hmmmm. One dead mason, one confirmed mason, two claimed masons, quite possibly more. And a bunch of people drawing conclusions too early from that, prolly.
Holyflare: Sorry for some reason I can't post in QT from my phone and I was called out before deadline. We should make this topic as productive as we can in this night in case one of us dies though, LM and Pandain have both "used" their masons as far as we know, I'm a mason, skan was a mason. VE says he has been masoned and the person that masoned him has also been masoned...
that's 6 masons already.... marv seriously fuck you, is half the game masons?
Holyflare: Also in regards to VE
/m21
It follows through with what I said. I've definitely got a town read on SS right now because he was discussing who we should lynch, he listened to answers and researched them before deciding and mocsta would have been an alright target IMO. VE didn't really want to be mayor anymore, got it, didn't discuss anything and voted off somebody that I questionably had a town read on (based on hogwarts mafia that I played with him in) even though VE wasn't confident in his reads. There was no element of town consensus, was he even around at the deadline?
Quite frankly I am concerned about him for now but I suggest we keep a careful eye on him and see what pans out on day 2. I'll make an "if i die" post detailing what we have discussed/will discuss tonight and that I masoned you so you have some cred and can talk about things.
Do you suggest anyone that I should filter dive for now?
Austinmcc: If VE was masoned and maybe double masoned, it can explain some of his absence from thread. We'll watch him and see what happens.
I don't know that you need an "if i die" post. I don't think BOTH of us die tonight, almost 100% not, so I think we're fine with crumbing it and anyone alive has a boost if needed. I will probably claim i've been masoned now though, just to try and keep people from doing mason math.
I will definitely be active tomorrow afternoon EST during this night, less so this evening. Got busy.
I think there are a lot of players NOT worth filter diving, but if you can separate any of them from the pack based on a post or something, it's worth doing that. So maybe...peek at each, if anything LEAPS out as townie or scummy, note it, but otherwise I don't think there's anything major to be gleaned from thrawn nee hiro/coag/hopeless/cheese/stutters, and little from BH/OOHCHILD.
As far as people to dive...I would look at Pandain, artanis, and maybe something like spaghetticus, who was not much of a factor today. Pandain has some quirks, maybe you get something from his posts. Artanis very useful if town, but probably isn't a N1 kill, so he's around and a factor for a few days i think. Spaghetticus...will be here for a while.
Holyflare: There's also seemingly a seed that's been planted on me, I keep seeing my name pop up and the word scum next to it but nobody gives any reasoning.
Pandain is one of them, I suggest we look into him
Holyflare: Yeh, both of us may not die but you lose a lot of weight claiming the mason after the death but yes if you say it now that would be great.
Austinmcc: After I say I was masoned --> (1) if I die, you can claim if needed, and nobody should counterclaim; or (2) if you die, I will say it was you, and nobody should counterclaim (you would flip mason, nobody else would have been masoned by you, so it would be very very likely that I was actually masoned).
I don't think there's risk of not being believed in either case, and it's not a big worry.
Holyflare: No I don't mean in that sense, I mean nothing we talked about can be confirmed if one of us dies
Austinmcc: Ah, gotcha.
Holyflare: rayn is so draining it's ridiculous, seriously detracting from other things I could be doing
Austinmcc: Should be done with major commitments for the day, want to start looking back over this game and poking around. We need to get way more active in here too, sorry for not really pumping stuff in here early. Gimme like 20-30 and I'm gonna start spamming hopefully.
Holyflare: I looked around at rayn's filter and ctrl + f'd pandain, seriously, what a joke. No reasoning just "this guy is scum", "he's scum because I said so", "shut up scum". He then just told austin to stop telling people to shut up... like what kind of flip flopping is he playing at??
Holyflare: my mason with you ends at the end of night 1 by the way and I'm going to make a big post so any thoughts to add to it would be cool
it's going to be rayn/mocsta/hopeless and mattchew for now, I honestly haven't got round to reading pandain yet though
Holyflare: Got any questions to talk about?
Austinmcc: WHY AM I BEING A BAD MASON PARTNER?
Could you read over LM and give me your thoughts? Apparently we've got MAYBE 6 masons, maybe less, maybe more, dunno. It's LIKELY we have scum within them. Assuming you're not scum, the pool is slightly narrowed, and he's there.
Holyflare: LM's filter is...... I don't know how to describe it. Well I do, it's LM. That's the thing in every game I've played with him he just posts.. nothingness. Although in this game I feel like he's actually TRYING to contribute. I think his mason to yamato was an oversight seeing as he knows, for example, how I play as scum and town because I've played with him as both. I actually think he may be scum for choosing yamato (everyone seemingly disagrees) because of what I said earlier. Yamato was very towny at the start and scum tell him who to target when he arrives etc etc.
As for the rest of his posts, I like that he questions yamato for not responding in QT but I don't specifically know what they are saying. I will definitely have to pressure him to get more out of him later. I don't like how he went about with the spaghetti case on VE though. He said he hadn't "analysed" it yet but gave spaghetti a town read because of it, without looking at the content and we have no real idea if they case affected his read on VE or not, I haven't checked his vote yet but I still presume it was on VE over SS or someone else.
Defo defo defo question him tomorrow
Austinmcc: Okeedoke. I have sucked it up so far in mason chat, and for that I apologize. I'm half paranoid about you, and keep getting distracted by trying to keep things moving in thread. I feel like I've really been able to get a lot of posts and thoughts out, and have been wanting to focus on that because sometimes discussion really dies down overnight.
I usually don't post a big reads post at the end of night, but I'll put some thoughts in here. If I die, you can give em out or not (but maybe should, since I'll flip town). I'm currently not loving BC, not loving cheesecake, not loving lonemeow (but I have zero experience with the guy), and generally not very sure on anything. Tomorrow I need to really really strongly call a couple people out, with real or fake cases, just to make thread take stances on single people and really push votes around, see what happens. If I really suspect a person, I will either use the word cat in a post or I will start paragraphs with the letters of CAT or something. Otherwise, it's probably me just fishing for reactions and trying to see where votes go.
Do with that what you will tomorrow if you're up
Holyflare: It's fine to be paranoid of me, I've been away for a bit and when i came back rayn took all my attention. Hopefully I can sway you a bit tonight/next few days. Just going ignore rayn's remarks for the rest of the time.
If I feel the urge for you to directly look at something I'll start the first 2 sentences of my post with C's.
Could you look at this. Contrary to popular belief (something like that)
Holyflare: I have my reasons to be wary of you but obviously I'm not going to see why in case you change
Either way, thanks for the chat!
Holyflare: Say* -.-
Austinmcc: Hahahaha. We're both just standing a couple feet apart, looking skeptically at each other.
Now I really just want to get masoned by a bunch of people and give codes to everyone and start having to form these really specific posts in order to key everyone in on different info.
Austinmcc: I keep opening your filter and then being too lazy to look because sometimes I hate reading rayn's posts, and so much of your filter involves his posts or posts at him
VE's absence, BH's return, Cheese's return, this is all wonky.
Holyflare: I'll try and solve some things out over the course of the next few hours. Keep watch!
Holyflare: Also yeh... He get's on my nerves so much. I was fine at the start but then he kept dragging things up over and over again and doesn't see when he goes wrong. Not to mention he has called pandain scum with no reasoning. I tried to get him to talk to me about pandain but then he just calls me dumb and tried to shut me down again saying "it wont help bla bla"
Austinmcc: grrrr, I wish I knew whether VE/yamato/other people were active in mason chats or not. There are easy ways to explain activity, and yamato coming back with a big post makes it LOOK like he's been active in mason chat, getting reads, refining reads, coming to thread. But he says LM isn't doing much in mason chat, indicating that it's not the case.
Hate D1s. Never very good at them. One think I would recommend, if I die, is to really try and push votes around. I would avoid poking at rayn and people who seem REALLY thorny, but if you can build cases on shadyish looking people, see who agrees/says nothing/whatever, just keep doing that and moving votes as much as you can, you'll get a TON of info to mine later once we have some more flips. Our D1 was particularly bad at creating any kind of major conflict or major voting changes. We gotta try and do that on later days.
Austinmcc: rayn and I generally butt heads, but in the last game I played with him and pandain, he had a very nice pandainscum read that was right, and I had pandain town. However, he substantiated it heavily, kept telling me to go look at x game, or read this thing, or that the action Pandain was taking and I was calling him town for was actually a scumPandain thing.
I would avoid going head on at rayn and, if you want to poke at his pandain read, come around from the side. Tell rayn you're curious about it. Tell him how you read pandain and why, give specific stuff, then see if he responds by giving specific things he things are scummy, or at the very least see if he picks things in YOUR opinion out and talks about them. Might be easier way to get him to open up a little on that.
Austinmcc: Say I'm town. What's the one thing I need to do a better job of in future days? Say I'm scum, where's the biggest place I've messed up and managed to look scummy?
Holyflare: I think you've done a fine job as both alignments. It's a good meta to have because it won't get you lynched day 1 and regardless of alignment you can set something up based on the information you have received from your questions. I know you're not new etc but if you want to look super towny I would do what you say you are going to do tomorrow but on day 1's. i.e make aggressive cases on people to try and see how they respond as well as asking them the questions that you have been doing.
If you are scum then yeh, same applies. I would have liked to make a lot more cases today but the rayn thing.. gaahhhh
Holyflare: Oh well I totally misread your thing. HAHA. Well, yeh make aggressive cases on people and use the information you have got from flips to do it. Their responses should either make them slip up or give you some new information as people are most telling under pressure or threat. (Which is why I think mocsta is scum).
Holyflare: If you are scum your downfall was the lack of what I've just been saying
Austinmcc: Oh yeah, this is not my usual playstyle. I haven't played a giant normal in a while, and I haven't played a big mayor game in a looooong time. This is really odd for me, I like to ask questions and make people talk, but not nearly this much, and I usually post way more cases/reads. Just a funky game so far for me, gotta wait for things to click.
(Also, i'm totes town)
Holyflare: I've never played a big game or a mayor game, I much prefer normal minis ><
Holyflare: Actually I lie I just played hogwarts which was big and themed, yeh still prefer normal minis :D:D:D
Holyflare: Do you think I should come out as mason tonight/tomorrow?
Austinmcc: Eh, just do whatever you feel like on that. We have A LOT of masons. We don't know numbers on town/scum. At some point, things will tip, and mason identities will come out, but there are so many and it's such a not-mega-awful-for-scum role that I don't think you're all going on some kill list.
If you ever feel like you coming out really helps you, then I would. Or really helps town when they want a 100% comprehensive mason list AND everyone wants this AND you think it's a pretty good idea AND a lot of other masons claim.
Otherwise, I don't think it's super worth claiming? I guess. I just wrote so many words to say that.
Austinmcc: Sorry for being a bad mason partner today. Hope your other partners are super awesome and you guys solve the game!
Welcome to giant normals!
Marvellosity: CLOSED
EPT
