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strongandbig
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strongandbig
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On September 27 2013 05:48 VisceraEyes wrote: God damn this stinks of insincerity and contrivance. But whatever I'll deal with you later sir. then what are you dealing with now | ||
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strongandbig
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i read some pages looks like bh rng'd koshi? | ||
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On September 28 2013 03:18 Blazinghand wrote: And if you think I'm trying to push an RNG lynch you really don't understand what I've been saying about it these past pages at all. The point is, people who like an RNG lynch might just be trying not to contribute or whatever. So we ACTUALLY RNG a person, and now it's not "RNG lynch", it's "RNG Koshi lynch" and people have to actually take stances. okay so i think that this is sort of true, but (one) point of random lynch is that random lynch does a better job of finding scum than the collective analysis of the town looking at day 1 filters. if that's what you're getting at then everyone should just vote koshi completely regardless of the value of his filter. however, if you're getting at the "scum don't like random lynch because they are afraid it will decrease their ability to control the lynch and keep it from landing on them" then you can only get the effects of that from proposing a random lynch without specifying a target and getting people to agree before they know what the target is. so what you're doing here is neither of those? | ||
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strongandbig
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On September 27 2013 23:30 Palmar wrote: Given this, I really don't understand this: You wouldn't be asking this question unless you thought there was something fishy about yamato's townread on me. But because what I'm saying makes sense, according to yourself, I would think that grounds enough for thinking I'm town. Do you think yamato should have further reservations? Do you think it's suspicious that he doesn't? i dont like this post. rayn clearly indicated that palmar making sense was not alignment indicative. but palmar is trying to twist/recast that reasoning into rayn having had a townread on him. either intentional, in which case scummy, or unintentional, in which case this really doesn't fit with the brooks-no-nonsense-or-illogicalness palmar we know and love. then there's another thing. Palmar is voting for yamato right now, but he's made cases for why at least two other people (grack and hiro) are actively scummy. (his "pattern finding"). whereas he's said pretty much nothing about yamato. what's the point of putting emphasis on pattern finding if you're not going to actually use it to kill scum. Also, I think one thing scum players love to do is give advice and not follow it: On September 28 2013 00:05 Palmar wrote: Whatever. Re: WoS case. Did you unlearn how to make and push cases since we last played together? If you throw a random vote with little reasoning or an unconvincing case behind it in the middle of something else going on, it's so pointless you might as well not do it. And I didn't say you were scum. I said you were inconsistent. This could be due to numerous other reasons, bad, lazy, don't care etc. Are you scum? On September 28 2013 00:44 Palmar wrote: Oh VE is back, sweet, I don't have to do anything then. We killing yamato? I'm in. ##Unvote ##Vote yamato77 And the last thing: On September 27 2013 05:24 Palmar wrote: I'm member of one of the mafia teams. I'm requesting one person from the other team PM me, or if that's not allowed, just claim in the thread so we can work together. Who else thinks it's weird that palmar posted this, then didn't say anything in terms of analysis of what came out of it? Like, someone even asked him to say something about vayne based on it, and he didn't mention it at all. My impression of palmar from his opening shenanigans in other games is that he likes to get something from them. When he proposes a random lynch or other stupid policy, he has a very specific set of goals in mind as town for information he wants to get from the shenanigans and peoples' reactions to them. This game, I don't see that. Yes, I do think palmar is cocky enough to claim scum as scum. | ||
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On September 28 2013 04:08 VisceraEyes wrote: BH lied - he's always been in favor of a Koshi lynch and now that he himself has implemented it (fairly, as he's attested) he's backing off of it. ##Unvote ##Vote: Koshi I can't wait to see some actual content from the guy - it will be interesting to see how his lies intertwine. why does this make you vote koshi instead of bh | ||
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On September 28 2013 04:22 raynpelikoneet wrote: I think you are totally right in this post. On the other hand, we don't need to lynch Palmar on D1, even if he is scum. He can net us more scum, and the other scumteam needs to shoot him if me make him do so. :D That's basically what i am trying to do. um wat you think he's scum but you don't want to kill him? .... | ||
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On September 28 2013 05:03 VisceraEyes wrote: Do you have some sort of reason for thinking this? Because it seems to me like that would draw a lot of attention to the player, and therefor would be something scum would NOT love to do. Can you walk me through it plz? Exhibit Two: Scum Love To Give Good Advice To Town, But Hate To Follow It This is something I started looking for in the couple of games before I stopped playing for a while. "advice posts", be they long or short, are easy for scum to do, as is complaining about how the town is behaving. However, when a townie gives advice or criticism to/of the town in general, it means they care enough about that particular issue or problem to try to get everyone to focus on it. That also means they'll be thinking about it in their own posts. Basically: Townies follow their own advice, scum don't. | ||
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strongandbig
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Investigation. | ||
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Links | ||
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Cheesecake: voting koshi because yolo randomlynch Palmar: voting koshi no reasoning given Grack: says earlier in his filter that random lynch is good because it makes scum uncomfortable and leads to good analysis, but later votes koshi because koshi probably scum. Wos: voting koshi for rng lynch because TL towns suck. VE: had a scum read on yammo but switched to rng lynch when bh stopped pushing it after randoming koshi. I don't get the logic here. Tofu: voting koshi because rng lynch gives good odds of hitting scum? Shiao: voted koshi first after grack but says he's against rng lynvh but in favor of koshi lynch (where's the case) | ||
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strongandbig
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1. Chairman Ray, ShiaoPi and Grack are likely scum. They all joined in the randomlynch on koshi but were all reluctant or afraid to own it. The entire point of a random lunch is that if you are doing it you lunch it's target regardless of analysis. - ray's long post analyzing koshi but not mentioning the rng lynch just really strikes me as scummy. The point of a random lynch is to circumvent analysis on your first target, giving better odds of hitting scum, and make analysis easier on your second target because of how people reacted to the peoposed random lunch. - grack is also super scummy from the way he shifted from "I'm pro random lunc" before it was targeted to "koshi is scum" after if was targeted without still defending random lynch. Unwilling to stick up for / defend his views when it comes down to it. - shiaopi - little harder to analyze because he posted so little before his vote. However the whole concept of "I'm against rng lunch but pro koshi lynch" is not necessarily scummy I guess if you have a strong read on the player (strong enough that you want townies who don't agree with your scum read to vote him anyway because you're so sure you're right and they're wrong. I don't see any evidence in shiaopi's filter that his scum read is strong or even exists on koshi before he voted for him. So voting for him after/becaus he was random lynch targeted but saying you don't suppose the random lynch but having a randomly showing up scum read seems really scummy to me. | ||
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On September 29 2013 02:29 raynpelikoneet wrote: SnB can you be useful? Phone posting is allw | ||
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Did anyone ever actually disagree with or counter my case? Cause I will argue with them if so. We should be voting palmar ibaread of koshi. | ||
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On September 29 2013 02:43 WaveofShadow wrote: Not alignment indicative for CR. He's meganoob and as such doesn't understand that what he did looks scummy. Can't say much regarding grack/Shiao 'cause shiao basically hasn't been around all game and I got burned on grack before so I'm not confident in my ability to read him. Mebbe I should look tho anyway. Why does not understanding that something is scummy mean that doing it doesn't make you scum? That makes no sends. Otoh I guess he has been mislynched twice so we should b careful about doing that again; but that can only go so far or we risk just leaving him alive and losing if he is actually scum this time. | ||
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strongandbig
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That said, grack also has a pretty good chance of being scum. There's his reasoning around voting koshi, which really strikes me as trying to push the koshi lynch without being connected to the random lynch itself in case it goes belly up. If he's telling the truth about his koshi read, he's spent a lot more of the thread talking about why koshi is scum than Yamato. He has much more well developed read on koshi than on Yamato, and yet once Yamato is leading on votes he doesn't try to persuade people, he just pops over to Yamato with a lol. Like, his most recent post about yamato before voting him was On September 28 2013 07:39 Grackaroni wrote: Quit reaching. I was going to switch regardless because Yamato came back and started doing things. | ||
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On September 30 2013 02:34 Grackaroni wrote: We are in the night phase  Not really sure where we are at right now. I think the day 1 lynch was likely between 2 townies so it's hard to get much information from it. You can read what I think of Palmar; Mr. CC would also be an useful filter to analyze because I haven't gotten a good feel from him and he has not been discussed at all. What hanged your mind on koshi? Your last post about him was basically "shit koshi is town" | ||
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On September 30 2013 04:54 Blazinghand wrote: ohh shii forgot about this game 1) FT still an okay lynch 2) rayn probably scum if i'm alive i'll be going after him 3) palm town why is palmar town | ||
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strongandbig
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Nothing has changed to persuade me that palmar isn't our best lynch. I don't agree with bh's townread on him - anyone can point things out, and I don't get the same "town feeling" from palmar's later posts that bh did. Second point. Between shiaopi and firmtofu I would much rather lynch shiaopi. 1. My personal experience is that shiaopi has done much more in past games to show he can contribute as town. This makes his lack of contribution this game scummier than tofu's. people who host games tend to care more about mafia than people who don't, in general. 2. The way shiaopi joined the koshi lynch. Like I said a while ago, I find this actively scummy. No indication prior to the vote that koshi is a scum read. First one to join the randomly generated lynch train, but distances himself from the whole idea of the random lynch, then doesn't talk about it again. Also this post: On September 29 2013 04:46 ShiaoPi wrote: I must admit I am fine with yamato getting lynched instead of koshi, so I am just sitting here playing dota When was Yamato his scumread? Why? I see him "in favor of" a Yamato lynch but I see no reasons and no thought process - nothing that can distinguish it from just voting with town sentiment. Tofu, on the other hand, I just see as a mega lurker. He voted koshi for te random lynch and owned up to that, which I find to be a townie action. That said, he did say On September 28 2013 03:38 FirmTofu wrote: Anyone who supports RNG, myself included, should still scumhunt and make full use of the day. There is still much to say and much to find. Anyone who stops scumhunting should be subject to lynch as well. And then not do it. But I find shiaopi much more likely to flip scum. | ||
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On September 30 2013 23:38 WaveofShadow wrote: So you say you'd rather vote SP over FT---but your second reason essentially puts them equally scummy, and your first reason is useless. Shiao is capable of playing any way he'd like. In LXI he lurked and shitposted and was scum. In I Swear This Is Normal, he was super mega protown, posted a lot and 'scumhunted,' and was scum. I feel like I played another game with him as well where he was actually town as well but i forget. in conclusion, your reasons for voting SP over FT are shit---SP could still be scum but you're not going to catch him on weak meta. Vote FT because it's a surer lynch. 1. Okay so he can play well as scum if he wants to. Do you have evidence that he can play like this as town? If not, you've said nothing that relates to my argument. Plus, one example is not enough to convince me. I'm talking about what I generally expect as town out of shiaopi vs what I expect as town out of firmtofu. 2. How does my second reason put them equally scummy? Shiaopi pushed koshi's wagon after the rng selection while trying to avoid responsibility for the random lynch if koshi flipped town. Ft was honest and owned up to what he was doing. Those are in no way equivalent. 3. Shiaopi's Yamato switch was also scummy. 4. What reasoning could you possibly have for why firmtofu is a surer lynch than shiaopi? Please explain. They are both equally lurky but there are plenty of reasons why shiaopi's filter is worse. 5. Why so aggro bro? | ||
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On September 30 2013 23:56 Palmar wrote: SnB you said chairman ray was scum, do you still think he is? I have no idea. I honestly am not sure how to deal with someone with a proven track record of looking really really scummy as town for reasons other than just being inactive (ie, he actually makes extremely scummy posts). I don't want to lynch him today, in the hopes that either the cops will take care of him one way or the other, or that he will post things which make his alignment clearer. We have plenty of better lynch options today. Like you or shiaopi. tldr of the following: BH's case on FT applies more to shiaopi than to ft. palmar's case on ft is not very good cause it only points out bad/shitty/irrational play, not why it's alignment indicative. wos's case is actually decent though and makes me feel willing to kill ft. but i still think shiaopi is more likely scum. On October 01 2013 00:23 Palmar wrote: For those that are not paying attention, this is the reason you should be lynching FT http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19852553 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19850842 everything in bh's post applies more to shiao than to tofu. On September 27 2013 15:35 FirmTofu wrote: Okay, so my best scum read right now is ShiaoPi. He's been around, but hasn't contributed. His filter is all one liners with basically no substance. Now, I know ShiaoPi is a lot better than how he's playing right now. I want to know why he is playing below is full potential. Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429897&user=ShiaoPi On September 30 2013 16:42 FirmTofu wrote: I'm sorry for my long absence. I'll try to make myself available in the coming days. I want to talk about ShiaoPi again. Here are the facts. 1) ShiaoPi was pretty useless in the early game. He showed up for about an hour with a few one liners and promptly left the thread. 2) After I accused him, he immediately changed his posting style. You can see the transition in his filter. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429897&user=ShiaoPi 3) His first "contributory post" was one that basically buddied BH's sentiment that I was somewhat scummy. 4) Then, he posts about Grack in a detached manner. Stating random facts that do more to appear useful instead of actually being useful. 5) The rest of his filter is just random accusations thrown at Koshi and more one liners. The key takeaway here is that ShiaoPi is content to go back to shitposting as long as no one is accusing him directly. He doesn't care to scumhunt in this game. All of his posts have been defensive. His read on Koshi is unsubstantiated and useless. There is nothing in his filter that is redeeming in the slightest. Scum. ##vote: ShiaoPi tofu has reasoning. it's not well fleshed out. It could very well be coming from scum. but at least it's a thought process. On the other hand, before voting koshi shiaopi has said exactly this about him: On September 27 2013 06:49 ShiaoPi wrote: so koshi what changed in regards to grack. afraid we cannot be bros if you keep this up after he voted, he posted this: On September 28 2013 02:57 ShiaoPi wrote: koshi is not that rapid fire style townie I would expect from him. Also I really do not agree with the reasoning he offered when I asked him about the Grack read which i consider equally or less descriptive than what ft posted about his shiaopi vote. the palmar post you link essentially boils down to: 1. ft posted about grack, then didnt vote him, why 2. other people fit ft's reasons for voting shiao these are decent points and ft could very well be scum, but i don't see the scum motivation for the things you call him out for. like, they could also be coming from a bad townie. i definitely don't think they make up for any of the reasons i already cited for killing shiaopi over ft. actually, i think that if ft was trying to establish separation between himself and his scumbuddy grack (which I assume is the scenario you're proposing here, or else why would point 1 be scummy) he would have better reasoning about grack being scum. but as you say yourself, he has equally shitty reasoning for voting both of them. like, both of these points only point to scum if there's a connection involved or if you can explain how they fit a scum agenda, and you don't explain that. WoS's case is better. On September 28 2013 04:10 WaveofShadow wrote: You didn't shut everyone down in that game either. You yelled at people to vote for me but you did allow the conversation to go to other places at times. I dunno I'm kinda disappointed I was expecting more. Anyway FT read: His entire 1-page filter reads like a scum manual. 1) Give strong players townreads, throw out a couple others just to keep people honest, and be honest regarding unknowns, you don't want anyone on your ass you can't handle. 2) RNG is BAD. No town will ever go for this so make sure to shut it down to look as towny as possible. Just in case this game actually is different though (considering the statistics) make it look like you'll consider it to appease people. 3) Oh yeah, I gave this guy a scumread based on nothing huh? I'll delay this as long as I can and maybe people will forget. 4) Shit, strong town player is on to me! Better appease him too and I have to stick with my RNG stance now that the bluff has been called! The only issue I have with this narrative is it almost seems...too obvious? Also regarding what I said about BH's progression of the RNG discussion by actually RNGing someone----would scum really get caught by that? I'm not going to use 'too scummy to be scum' here because I hate that heuristic, but this would be a very good place for it. Overall i'd have to lean scum simply based on the narrative but also based on what I know about my thoughts towards RNG and how I acted about it vs how FT did. If we're 'Keeping it Simple, Stupid,' FT must be scum. Point (1) is good. That is a good point. While a townie could make that post, it's more likely to come from scum. Point (2), I believe, is completely undermined by ft's joining the random lynch wagon and owning that he was doing it just because of the random lynch. Point (3) is okay. not as good as point (1). could be indicative of scum but I don't find it super convincing since it came pretty early in the game when no one had good reasoning for reads (IIRC). Point (4) is also good. This is kind of a weird post to make as town. specifically because of wos's points 1 and 4, i actually feel like ft also has a pretty good chance of flipping scum. i still think, however, that shiaopi is a better bet - look at blazinghand's case on ft and apply that logic to shiaopi, combined with my arguments about the rng lynch and also about the discrepancy between how shiao can play and how he is playing. | ||
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strongandbig
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but rayn and ve: look at shiao and at ft, why do you think ft is more likely to flip scum than shiao? | ||
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##vote: shiaopi | ||
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Also I get that you don't think ft is scum but what about shiaopi? He's currently the second realistic lynch option. | ||
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On October 01 2013 12:28 austinmcc wrote: SP I didn't get much from D1, I got nothing in read-through notes on him and just remembered he was one of the folks making a Koshi comment. As far as him being a lynch option today...will read through in the EST morning and respond more fully. I find myself almost never wanting to lynch ShiaoPi because his schedule is never synched with the thread's and it always feels like he's pushable as a mislynch in games he rolls town. Just...very very wary of any push to lynch ShiaoPi. Strongandbig : Drazerk :: austinmcc : ShiaoPi oh man drazerk okay i can feel ya | ||
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I don't like how the shiaopi wagon has just defused without anyone ever actually defending him. Wos and co have given legitimate reasons why they think ft is more likely to flip scum than shiaopi, so that's okay. Although I really don't like koshi's complete indifference to which one of the two gets lynched. What I don't see is any evidence that the people voting for vayne have actually put any reasoning into why he's a better lynch than shiaopi. Or even than FT, in some cases. ChairmanRay - you have explained why you don't want to lynch tofu, but why did you vote vayne instead of shiaopi? Why is vayne more likely to flip scum than shiaopi is? Pandain - why are you voting VA over tofu? You said earlier you thought tofu was scum and have reasons for it. Tofu - did you do that filter diving like you said you would? Why'd you unvote shiaopi and then vote vayne? Right now I'd rather lynch tofu than vayne, and will vote accordingly if necessary. The tofu case from wos is just more persuasive to me than the mini cases on vayne from pandain and ray. That said, shiaopi is my preferred lynch over either of those, and I don't understand why or how this push went away, so I'm keeping my vote there for now. | ||
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Or are you just trying to about taking a stance. You've said why you don't think ft is scum but you're gonna need to give us more than "I usually think shiaopi is town" and "no comment on va" before you can just abstain out of this lynch. | ||
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and then i died | ||
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Mod confirming a scum team member and then doing nothing about it is just unacceptable. | ||
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