EPTAperture Mafia 2: Episode 2 - Page 240
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 11 2013 23:51 strongandbig wrote: He gave a semi-claim about how he was visiting to protect kita, but because the fate got messed with due to Vayne's keeping Hassy as a ghost, there was no protect. I actually dunno why town didnt just force a mass claim at that point. Most people had claimed anyway. Actually did cheesecake ever even have to explain why he was visiting Kita? With hassy a double medic and alakaslam's flip, the claim maybe should have been dug back up. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
Some of you used your roles suboptimally (at least in my opinion, some of them are debateable). Personally, I think onegu should have used his watch ability day 1. Watchers are ridiculously strong and allow you to learn so much each night, including possible mafia if you target a night kill. I understand why he used his move ability night 1, but I think a watch would have been better. Next, geript should have saved his vote rig till later in my opinion. Vote rig is ridiculously powerful when there is a heated lynch heading the wrong direction or an aimless lynch heading for a no lynch. Lastly, debears should have also tried to establish his towniness a lot better because his role becomes amazing when used with a person who most people assume to be town. Even though in the end, he got scum lynched, there was still too much debate about his scumminess. This leads me to my second point. Town had way too many people that were scummy most of the game because very few people established their innocence. I mean when scum shoots 3 3rd parties by night 2, you know town is doing a horrendous job of looking like town. Mafia did not have to do much those first 2 days to disrupt town. Town did it to themselves. Mafia was carried by clarity day 1 because he was active and contributed. Eventually, austin and Mr. Cheesecake (and Felkyr to some extent) picked up the posting later, but town was in a terrible position by that time. Additionally, town did not scum hunt that much. They routinely ignored vote counts which are a big source of information as well as look at the night kill targets and their reads. Just because it is a crazy themed game doesn't mean you can stop scumhunting. I'm going to list a few posts that I remember off the top of my head as either being insightful or things you guys should have picked up on. This list is definitely not exhuastive, and I'm not trying to ignore an insightful post, but I didn't decide to write this until a few days ago, so I wasn't keeping notes early game. On September 09 2013 08:11 randombum wrote: Last night I had no way to kill you, 2 days ago I had no ways to lynch you. Night before that I couldn't kill you. Before that I wanted geript dead. Why would I warn mafia that I really want to lynch one of their members so they can kill me? randombum should have been lynched immediately after reading this post day/night 4 (?). What townie ever says that I didn't inform the town of one of my top scum reads because I couldn't lynch or kill him for 3 cycles!? I can see a townie laying low for a day or 2 to get a better read, but seriously by this late in the game, you need to be sharing your reads on someone you "suspected" for like 4 cycles. Sorry rayn, but this quote was too good to pass up. On September 07 2013 05:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Mr.CC: Lynch scum! If you are wrong so be it, but lynch scum every time you are able to. Clarity, looking at the votes here i think there is noone who is scum on debears. I am not sure on that at all on OO.. On September 07 2013 08:42 Crossfire99 wrote: Day 3 Lynch ObviousOne (7): debears, AxleGreaser, Risen,ShiaoPi, austinmcc, Stutters695, cakepie debears (6): ObviousOne, raynpelikoneet, VisceraEyes, Coagulation, Felkyr, Clarity_nl This also points to the scumhunting that town did not do. I forget who mentioned it, but they were right when they said people should have been focusing on players who didn't vote for Alakaslam and voted for debears. That would have given town 2 scum, Felkyr and coag. I'm not saying lynch people just on this basis, but pressure them and read their filter. coag was obvious scum and Felkyr I'll talk about below. These two posts about felkyr were good and should have been followed up on. On September 01 2013 01:25 Oatsmaster wrote: Felkyr, why arent you asking anyone questions???? He basically posted a list post. I dont like it.. Dandel town cause Dandel town, I dunno, its hard to explain. Like town rather than scum trolling. Oats makes a good point about why the newbie isn't asking anyone any questions. This is good because he has to be asking someone questions especially because this is his first game and such a crazy one at that. This definitely should have told you that he was in contact with someone who could give him advice and coupled with his scummy play day 1, should have been pressured more. On September 10 2013 04:48 cakepie wrote: Guys this hit me on the way to work: That's some useful ambiguity there. "Pokemon role" but not trainer, yes, but also "Pokemon role" as in, "I know who the player is", or "I know what the role is", or both? Go back to P192. Most everyone is talking about "who" it could be. (Ceph drops the word "name" ambiguously a couple times both as verb and noun, but leave that aside.) Now this: When the ongoing thread assumption is due to me saying Stutters was able to figure me by flavor from action, why this? Why work on "role name"? And then: Guys, if Stutters town in BM and we lost Onegu and Koshi, what are the odds of more town BM members? Felkyr anyone? cakepie makes a great point here. Felkyr let slip that he has knowledge something he shouldn't have. The only reason cakepie didn't pursue this was because of Felkyr's green check. I will say this, if you see something that seems really wrong like this post, go back and reread the guy's filter and see what you find. If you still think he has been playing scummy, pressure him and see what happens. Just because he had a green check, doesn't mean that he is town. In both Whose Line Is It Anyway Mafia and Parallel World Mafia, I got into a situation against "confirmed" town players near endgame, but their play wasn't matching up with their "confirmed" status. Sometimes you have to go with your read on someone in the face of a check. I'm not saying to ignore it, but only use it as part of what informs you on their play. This leads me to Mr. Cheescake, who should have been pressured more because his claim didn't make sense. First he was seen visiting a player who died the previous night. He needs to be questioned a lot about it, but everyone in Closed Casket Mafia went afk the whole day, which was not good at all. The only reason he wasn't confirmed scum to the watcher was because Risen targeted Alakaslam to get the bell which framed him for all checks, so he was seen as visiting kita even though he didn't. Even with the light pressure, Mr. Cheesecake was forced to claim and explain himself eventually because things didn't add up. On September 09 2013 09:44 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Kita's dead, no I didn't get what I wanted. Slam shot him dead, and fate was less than or equal to zero so I couldn't heal him. On September 04 2013 09:13 GreYMisT wrote: Night 2 Fate: 2 On September 09 2013 09:48 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Oh that reminds me btw, some useful information here. Onegu either received 2 kp or scum have an ability that ignores protection, because I was on him last night due to his watcher claim. Since Fate was greater than zero my heal worked but he still died. And no, nothing else noteworthy happened that night. OH WAIT. I got this thing that said "There's a time and place for everything, but not now" Crossfire didn't message it to me until really late in the day, however. On September 07 2013 09:21 Crossfire99 wrote: Night 3 Fate: 3 On September 04 2013 10:54 Crossfire99 wrote: No. Sorry, I was also wrong all day. Geript's vote should count as 0. GreY's vote count is right. When his pm said rounded down, it meant towards 0. Sorry for the confusion. Therefore, the lynch is still correct. The takeaway here is that Mr. Cheesecake messed up his claim a little bit. Both nights had positive fate and yet his ability did different things than what he had explained. He should have been pressured for this. I'm not saying he should be lynched for this, but Mr. Cheesecake had a distinct lack of pressure for his claim and onegu seeing him visit the killed kita. Speaking of night kills, they should have been analyzed to at least determine the number of mafia in the game, which no one did. (You should also look at everyone's reads who died because usually mafia kill townies that are right or close to being right over ones that are wrong). Mafia kp was # of mafia/2 rounded up, which was written in the OP. A game of this size traditionally has 6 mafia. Three people died night 1 and they were all townie looking players, so the safe assumption was that they were killed by mafia night 1. Night 2, 5 people died (Hassy doesn't count because he was lynched day 2, but didn't die until later). One was oats who cephiro claimed to kill. Then there were 4 unclaimed kills of townie looking people. It is safe to assume that 3 of them were from mafia leaving 1 unknown. Then night 3, 2 scum had died during day 3, so you know that mafia have 1 less kp. With 2 townies dying and 1 scum biting the bullet from cephiro, there were 2 unclaimed kills most likely from mafia. But then Risen claimed to be shot after ringing the bell. This is another unclaimed kill, but from an unknown source. When you look at these 2 unclaimed unknown kills, they were on people who were considered town or playing for town (Vayne and Risen). This should raise serious red flags that there are at least 7 mafia in this game. This now leads to this smart quote by cephiro: On September 10 2013 05:29 Cephiro wrote: I should tell you because? I don't understand why you are constantly trying to get everyone to claim their roles and reveal what they do. It's like you want every single piece of information to be all in the open (at least those of your choice), which I can't understand why someone would do that as town. It's not making you look good in my eyes at all. This is very important. I believe it was either Ace or Ver after their recent respective games that said that townies claim their roles way too much. Scum know almost everything about a game except for what roles town has. This is their greatest threat. Austinmcc can tell you how paranoid not knowing what town can do can make you. Too many times town players claimed their roles for no good reason. Hassy shouldn't have claimed medic. Even if he thinks scum double stacked or something, file that info away later. IT IS DAY 2. YOU ARE A MEDIC. DON'T CLAIM AND SAVE MORE PEOPLE. rayn's claim is debatable. I understand what he was trying to do, but how much more powerful would his role have been if scum didn't know that he was Red? A mislynch that survives, a night kill that survives. He buys time for town. Again, I understand why he claimed, but I think he should have thought more about the advantages for his role. I also don't like stutters claiming a cop check immediately to black mesa even though it was to a mason group and he claimed that is was one shot. If you are truly one-shot claim, but if not save your claim until you hit a red check or you must absolutely save a town read when it is a desperate situation. Additionally, you should not have outed your check to black mesa, a group where you were warned about potential scum infiltration. Lastly Koshi, I know were pissed about Alakaslam dying, but you are an Inventor, one of the most powerful roles in the game. You can make whatever you want including once making fake item to give to someone which you can use to gain even more info. An unknown inventor creating items and giving them to townies is a nightmare for scum. Notice how you died immediately once you claimed? I've got a few more things to say, but I'll just post this for now and finish the other stuff later. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
e: Ninjaed by clarity | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
I think your analyses is wrong (while it's right - but how am i supposed to know it?). | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
OO votes for debears. debears goes "#YOLO! ITS ME AND YOU NOW". It does not matter how good/bad the reasons are for OO voting for him. What made me think debears is scum was because "i can't defend myself so i #yolo and try then". That's bad imo. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 12 2013 02:12 Crossfire99 wrote: All townies need to claim D1 when I'm mafia. It's so much better for my health. Please please please just everyone claim so I don't have to be so worried.This is very important. I believe it was either Ace or Ver after their recent respective games that said that townies claim their roles way too much. Scum know almost everything about a game except for what roles town has. This is their greatest threat. Austinmcc can tell you how paranoid not knowing what town can do can make you. Too many times town players claimed their roles for no good reason. Hassy shouldn't have claimed medic. Even if he thinks scum double stacked or something, file that info away later. IT IS DAY 2. YOU ARE A MEDIC. DON'T CLAIM AND SAVE MORE PEOPLE. rayn's claim is debatable. I understand what he was trying to do, but how much more powerful would his role have been if scum didn't know that he was Red? A mislynch that survives, a night kill that survives. He buys time for town. Again, I understand why he claimed, but I think he should have thought more about the advantages for his role. I also don't like stutters claiming a cop check immediately to black mesa even though it was to a mason group and he claimed that is was one shot. If you are truly one-shot claim, but if not save your claim until you hit a red check or you must absolutely save a town read when it is a desperate situation. Additionally, you should not have outed your check to black mesa, a group where you were warned about potential scum infiltration. Lastly Koshi, I know were pissed about Alakaslam dying, but you are an Inventor, one of the most powerful roles in the game. You can make whatever you want including once making fake item to give to someone which you can use to gain even more info. An unknown inventor creating items and giving them to townies is a nightmare for scum. Notice how you died immediately once you claimed? I've got a few more things to say, but I'll just post this for now and finish the other stuff later. Aside from that, I really like this. Koshi we absolutely swapped a kill over onto you because you were clearly an inventor, and that's a MISERABLE role for scum to play up against. We avoided using any kp at all against rayn after his claim because we knew we couldn't kill him efficiently. Heck, if Risen fullclaimed and said he had the bell I don't think we'd have shot him, I was just really paranoid about him screwing us over. | ||
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Mr. Cheesecake
United States3756 Posts
Although we got lucky with 'Slam visiting Kita randomly and once he flipped everyone assumed he shot him. If that didn't happen I would have played differently for sure. | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
On September 12 2013 02:21 raynpelikoneet wrote: Crossfire: I think it was not that much of who was on debears and who were not. Coag was obvscum there. Felkyr had a green check on him. Clarity looked like "obvtown" to me. OO was ofc voting for debears. I think your analyses is wrong (while it's right - but how am i supposed to know it?). (As an aside: I'm not trying to belittle you. Sorry if I came off that way. I just found your quote funny and enlightening to use.) That's why i mentioned that you should compare it the previous days vote count. Ignore clarity because people thought he was town. Comparing votecounts would have given you Felkyr and coag for people voting for debears and not voting for alakaslam. That is the entire point I was trying to make. That is hard and fast evidence. I talk about the Felkyr's green check later. Though, by day 4 with clarity still alive for someone who was "obvious town" since day 1, should have been looked at more closely especially with some of the night kill targets the past few nights. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On September 12 2013 02:12 austinmcc wrote: Yeah, the kp numbers were actually all over the place with 3 N1 and 6 N2, would have been difficult for you guys to figure out just how much kp was out there. Somebody really needed to sit down and try to look for numbers. If nothing else, you knew we were probably responsible for the world swap, MAYBE had a pokemon trainer, but even then it would have been tough to know there were still 5 of us. e: Ninjaed by clarity I did no such ninjaing. | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
On September 12 2013 02:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: BTW crossfire, the way my fakeclaim worked was that if fate was less than or equal to 0 by the end of the night, it wouldn't work. Fate by D3 in CCM was 0. That's why my fake heal didn't save kita, so it made sense. For D4 nobody cared, and I just made up some stuff about Onegu receiving 2kp or scum having cool powers that pierce protection, because it would have been stupid for town-me to not be on Onegu. Although we got lucky with 'Slam visiting Kita randomly and once he flipped everyone assumed he shot him. If that didn't happen I would have played differently for sure. Yeah, I know you could have explained it away. I'm just saying you needed to be pressured. There were a few "coincidences" that town could have used and maybe found cracks in your play. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
I have a question. Am I just fucked now in future games? Like, I look obvtown as town, even when I'm wrong all the time (and I was intentionally wrong plenty this game) so.... what can I do as scum to not look scum yet not look too town for it to be weird that I'm alive. :s Maybe I should just blame TL meta of townies not looking town? | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
On September 12 2013 02:31 Clarity_nl wrote: Nice writeup cross, looking forward to more if you end up doing that. I have a question. Am I just fucked now in future games? Like, I look obvtown as town, even when I'm wrong all the time (and I was intentionally wrong plenty this game) so.... what can I do as scum to not look scum yet not look too town for it to be weird that I'm alive. :s Maybe I should just blame TL meta of townies not looking town? You aren't screwed in future games. I think town as a whole just looked way too scummy hence you were one of the "obvious townies." In a game where town organizes and discusses, and plays well, scum will be forced to play "scummy." Even if they're active and contributing, eventually they'll be forced to disrupt town or divert attention to other players to protect themselves or other mafia in order to win. This is evidence that you're not playing for town. If you're actually town and play "well," you should be less disruptive and more cooperative than scum, so you should be ok in future games. I don't mean that you won't argue and have disagreements over who is mafia, just that mafia always has to disrupt and divert suspicion which can be seen if you look closely at thread sentiment. (I think Ver's analysis after his game where he pretty much determines who scum are by seeing who disrupts the thread and diverts it is a good example of this type of scumhunting). I think people will just respect you more and be wary of trusting you too soon. | ||
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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Papa_Smurf
336 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On September 08 2013 07:18 debears wrote: You all should lynch into the following red highlighted names. I'm putting my trust in all of you townspeople! Btw Austin I have an idea of who would be in your sleeper cell. You have only 3 atm correct (including yourself)? Sadly I didn't push it  How bad of me | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On September 12 2013 02:40 Crossfire99 wrote: You aren't screwed in future games. I think town as a whole just looked way too scummy hence you were one of the "obvious townies." In a game where town organizes and discusses, and plays well, scum will be forced to play "scummy." Even if they're active and contributing, eventually they'll be forced to disrupt town or divert attention to other players to protect themselves or other mafia in order to win. This is evidence that you're not playing for town. If you're actually town and play "well," you should be less disruptive and more cooperative than scum, so you should be ok in future games. I don't mean that you won't argue and have disagreements over who is mafia, just that mafia always has to disrupt and divert suspicion which can be seen if you look closely at thread sentiment. (I think Ver's analysis after his game where he pretty much determines who scum are by seeing who disrupts the thread and diverts it is a good example of this type of scumhunting). I think people will just respect you more and be wary of trusting you too soon. Yeah I meant screwed in my future scum games, not my town games  | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
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