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TL Mafia LXII: TL Noir - Page 11

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 14:52 GMT
#2810
What the hell Mocsta. FT is one of the key people to discuss atm..
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 15:09 GMT
#2817
Mocsta, i would really like you to explain this:

At the end of D1 you voted for FirmTofu.
On N1 i see no posts from you that make me think your scumread on him has weakened.
Then, at the end of N1 you say this:
(2) FirmTofu
In my opinion he is either a scum agent sent to fuck with the thread (a la Blazinghand role) OR retarded town.
Im inclined to think retarded town. Im not heavily experienced with firmtofu, but I know based on post-game discussions, that he believes he makes beneficial pro-town decisions -> even when the whole thread is against him. This kinda feels like that. I will admit his posting gives me a zen-like calmness too. Its slow and methodical, but in a good way. I kept the read at null cos the above is just all gut. I dont really have a hard stance on him based on filter specifics. I dont think he is a good vig shot as the chances of flipping town are higher than some other choices in my opinion.


Now you are bringing up vote analysis from D1 and want marv to discuss them, yet you are unwilling to to discuss FT "because he is not most likely to flip mafia" according to you.


What has changed? What in FT's posting has ACTUALLY made you think he is town? And why do you want to discuss things straightly related to his alignment but you are unwilling to discuss FT himself?
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 15:15 GMT
#2827
On September 25 2013 00:12 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2013 00:12 ObviousOne wrote:
Marv my post was also excellent


If you replace 'ego' with 'penis', perhaps.

I'd bet you say "both 10". Then the question arises. Which one are you lying about?
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 15:17 GMT
#2830
On September 25 2013 00:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Am I missing a case on Sent somewhere? FT seems like the obvious lynch to me and I don't get the resistance I'm getting.

Sentinel is making very little sense, and while he has posted a good amount, i don't feel like he is trying to find scum.
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 15:23 GMT
#2833
On September 25 2013 00:11 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm awake. Going to do some serious analysis today since I've gone from bedridden to just a moderate fever. I'll be fielding questions if anyone has any while I work

Are you caught up with the thread? If you are not, when you are, do this.

Pick three most important things you find worth discussing at the moment. Make analysis of them and give your conclusions about them.
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 15:30 GMT
#2839
On September 25 2013 00:22 Mocsta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2013 00:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Mocsta, i would really like you to explain this:

At the end of D1 you voted for FirmTofu.
On N1 i see no posts from you that make me think your scumread on him has weakened.
Then, at the end of N1 you say this:
(2) FirmTofu
In my opinion he is either a scum agent sent to fuck with the thread (a la Blazinghand role) OR retarded town.
Im inclined to think retarded town. Im not heavily experienced with firmtofu, but I know based on post-game discussions, that he believes he makes beneficial pro-town decisions -> even when the whole thread is against him. This kinda feels like that. I will admit his posting gives me a zen-like calmness too. Its slow and methodical, but in a good way. I kept the read at null cos the above is just all gut. I dont really have a hard stance on him based on filter specifics. I dont think he is a good vig shot as the chances of flipping town are higher than some other choices in my opinion.


Now you are bringing up vote analysis from D1 and want marv to discuss them, yet you are unwilling to to discuss FT "because he is not most likely to flip mafia" according to you.


What has changed? What in FT's posting has ACTUALLY made you think he is town? And why do you want to discuss things straightly related to his alignment but you are unwilling to discuss FT himself?

I dont get the problem, we are talking about two isolated events.

(1) = FT filter
(2) = Read outcomes from a FT flip


What I wrote end of Night1 *is* my take on FT. Im not going to stop anyone else talking about him, because, im not a god of mafia and clearly can be wrong. Im saying, hes not my focus at all.. a fuck face like that. i coul read his filter 10 times and still not be certain if i want to lynch him.


So to answer your questions
(1) Indicators for town?
- Zen-like feeling in posts. Even though its obviously refined/constructed.. its a different type.

- The way he kept stopping himself from reading the thread, by engaging in live convo BUT still ensured he read the thread.
*This mimics my play replacing into "the game". I personally think scum replace into the game by either, waiting to read the whole thread and then making an impact.. or forgoing reading the thread all together and just start from the live point (a la DP in personality 2) Sorry.. personal heuristic, whether right or wrong.

- Has the guy actually pushed a scum agenda? Yes he is posting as if hes in the town leadership circle (e.g. submitting his own vig list).. but, hes not getting traction, and does it actually read as deceitful?

(2)Why do I want to discuss things related to his alignment but not willing to discuss him.
I believe this is answered by the above.

The q to marv, was curiosity about the information we could gain. I was trying to ascertain whether the best course of action was for an information lynch; or scum lynch. (Obviously bonus points if info lynch gives a scum lynch).

(1) My problem is your explanation does not really make sense to me because your interactions towards FT on N1 do not support what you are saying about the "zen-posting". I don't see you thinking "okay, fuck, this guy could be town aswell" from your posts towards FT on N1. Also why do you bring up replacing, FT has been in the game for the whole time, he has not replaced in.

(2) So what's the point of discussing things related to his alignment if you don't know his alignment and are not willing to find it out atm?
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 15:31 GMT
#2840
On September 25 2013 00:24 marvellosity wrote:
you know, rayn, it's much more useful if you don't set "homework" and see if people do useful shit without being prompted.

The problem is a majority of players don't do it, even if they are town, and then they get lynched.
I would rather get every piece of information out of everyone regardless of their alignment. It also helps out determining their alignment.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 15:40 GMT
#2846
Hey Stutters a quick question. Are you at work now or what did you mean by saying "while working" a couple of posts ago?
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 16:11 GMT
#2875
Okay Mocsta atm i don't give a fuck what you think about FT because that post about Mattchew was exactly what i was after. :p

Matt, you don't need to answer me, answer Mocsta instead, that's where i was heading.
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 16:17 GMT
#2881
Okay Mocsta now you are lying. You said at the start of the game clearly that you are on the right..
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 16:33 GMT
#2906
On September 25 2013 01:22 Mocsta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2013 01:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Okay Mocsta now you are lying. You said at the start of the game clearly that you are on the right..

Tru dat.
You will have to make up ya own mind.

Btw, if you haven't learnt by now. Town Mocsta loves engaging in live convo, often at the expense of not filter diving so a lot of stuff said is based off first impressions. Its a really bad habit/flaw in play. As a replacement, i am not as exposed to this issue, because theres no need to be a thread driver. Only ppl like marv (when at his peak) can maintain thread driving presence AND filter diving presence. Also means mafia dominates life.. so...

I tell you though as an aside, if by some miracle you are scum.. I will be devastated. (Srsly)
After GoT I made a hoohaa about clear differences in ya town/scum play, and I had a hard town read on you early. so would be embarassing


Yeah i get it. I actually do pretty much the same. that's why i misremember stuff. I dislike filter diving and bank more on my memory of what has happened and who were interested in important discussion topics and who were not. When i read filters and find a scummy post i click on the # button and read the post in context. But all in all i miss a fuckton of stuff/people especially in large games.

lol at your second paragraph. That was actually very well put about differences in my scum/town play you wrote after GoT, probably closest anyone has ever put it.

I gtg to work for a couple of hours. I'm waiting for Mattchew & Sentinel to answer. Interrogate the quiet people if they show up guys.
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 20:58 GMT
#2972
Sentinel what did make you change your mind on yamato on D1?
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 21:02 GMT
#2982
On September 25 2013 05:58 deconduo wrote:
Wait unless I'm missing something here, how is yamato confirmed? From what I understand, and coag hasn't been that forthcoming with information, coag claimed a vig shot on yamato, and yamato claimed he was protected. Why does that make yamato town? All it means is that coag is semi-confirmed, and a doc saved yamato.

Why would a scum lie about being protected, it makes sense for yamato to claim the protection regardless of his alignment.

Coag kinda claimed shooting VayneAuthority, not yamato. No sane townie would shoot yamato in this game N1. Read Vayne's filter so you can see why he was shot.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 21:14 GMT
#3005
On September 25 2013 06:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2013 05:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Sentinel what did make you change your mind on yamato on D1?


I agreed with him, this is when I convinced myself that Chairman was scum and yamato was right.

Show nested quote +
On September 25 2013 05:59 FirmTofu wrote:
On September 25 2013 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
First read:

FirmTofu's case on Zaragon seems to be more concerned about saving his own ass - he even mentions it in the opening - which makes his case look more motivated to post some sort of read for the sake of posting reads. The parenthetical aside part of his argument, like marv before me mentioned, is actually mistaken by itself. So there goes the integrity of that read.

I'm not going to rehash marv's arguments over there, but it ends with FT defending his stance on towns being committed to their reads - marv claims the opposite with towns not being 100% sure who is scum. What is important here is that in FT's mind, townie players need to commit to their reads. I don't know if it was his intention, but this post heavily implied he was one of the players who as town commits to their reads: post

On September 24 2013 07:22 FirmTofu wrote:
I'm back. All caught up. I'm starting to have reservations about my case on Zaragon :/
brb doing some filter diving.

Switches to me.

Pandain calls him out on it, with the post asking if Marv convinced FT of his argument. So FT contends that Zaragon is his top read (although it is shit, and he says so) and keeps his vote on it.

Bracketing this for a second, here is the interesting bit.

Now what his read on me is is all the stuff I've done earlygame. He claims that we were looking for vig targes - were we? I'm pretty sure the beginning of Day 1 we hadn't found anyone to vig yet. Anyways, he brings up my weak Coag vote, my switches onto Stutters and Umasi, and brings up arguments that can be considered somewhat valid. Until he brings up yamato:

Later, he switched to Yamato, who is now basically confirmed town barring crazy shenanigans. No real reasoning provided for this vote switch. Just decides Umasi isn't going to gain steam so decides to vote someone else.


Final sentence is true. First two are not. I voted for Yamato when he had only two posts of considerable length, and the second one made him look like a scumfuk. I think I even justified the vote earlier in the thread. At this point I thought Chairman Ray was town and yamato was isolating him for an easy lynch - and FirmTofu completely waves away the detailed thought process I laid out on why I switched from my townread on Chairman to being the final nail in his coffin. "Seems sketchy at best. I can vote this guy." That's all the rationale he gives.

So in summary, FT's current two reads, say what you will about their targets, are both heavily flawed. His number one read, which he acknowledged had holes in it to Pandain, is still his number one read at the time of this posting. That's incredibly scummy to me - instead of finding the best proof he can, he just latches on whatever reads he can find without regard for their solidity.

Hello Sentinel. Good to have you here. I would like to address what you said about my supposed belief that townies need to commit to their reads. I don't hold this belief at all.

I think townies generally end up committing to their reads, even to a point of fault. This behavior is not good town play, it's just what ends up happening when someone rolls town, at least in my experience.

I, personally, do not usually commit to reads when I am town. If you saw my post regarding my own self-meta, you should be able to get an idea of how I play as town.


Back to you. You initially voted Coagulation and then never really talked about him much after that. Is there anything Coagulation did or said that convinced you he wasn't scum?


I read the filter that marv told me to read, and his play as town there was pretty much a carbon copy of his play here. So I switched to my other scumread, Stutters. Then later I picked up Umasi, a better scumread at the time, and then yamato.

Guess I was wrong about your implication. Like I said, I didn't know if it was your intention, but from your wording it seemed like you would commit to a fault like the townies you speak of. Anyways, my point still stands that you really haven't offered much on Zaragon ever since marv poked holes in your first read.

I am a bit puzzled. Did you think yamato was town when you voted for CR?
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 21:24 GMT
#3012
Fair enough Sentinel.

FT quick question, what is your read on VE? What was your read on VE on D1? A couple of words is enough.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 21:38 GMT
#3037
On September 25 2013 06:27 FirmTofu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2013 06:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Fair enough Sentinel.

FT quick question, what is your read on VE? What was your read on VE on D1? A couple of words is enough.

Town, for now. I thought he was scum on Day 1, but his contributions since then have been extremely strong. My read has changed.

Interesting. Because Sentinel brought up a very good point. This is what you said about him:
Later, he switched to Yamato, who is now basically confirmed town barring crazy shenanigans. No real reasoning provided for this vote switch. Just decides Umasi isn't going to gain steam so decides to vote someone else.

The bolded part. How can you bring this up against him on D2? This happened on D1, there were a lot of players suspicious of yamato at that time. Sentinel in fact did bring up his suspicions on yamato earlier on in his posts. Why do you never bring up VE as scummy on D1? Because to me this looks like that you have picked up a player and then start finding out reasons why he is scum.

What exactly are VE's "extremely strong" contributions after D1? I feel like his contributions have been even more weak than on D1...
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 21:49 GMT
#3055
On September 25 2013 06:41 marvellosity wrote:
rayn, FIrm did bring up VE, in more than one post he mentioned him as scummy.

Unlike you to miss such a thing.

Yes, at the start of the game, never after this:
I don't like voting when there is still information to read. While VE is my strongest scum read at page 40, he may not be at page 58.

Which is apparently @ page 40. Then FT does not come back before the lynch. This is his next mention about VE:
Then we have people like VayneAuthority, kush, and VE. These are people that are capable of strong town games, but are currently either just trolling or posting with a subdued interest. I would say that this group of people becomes more easy to read as the game progresses, hence they aren't the best vig shots.

And now VE has apparently made some extremely strong contributions.
I want to know why his read on VE has changed.
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 21:50 GMT
#3056
On September 25 2013 06:48 FirmTofu wrote:
@rayn
I had only read to page 40 when I had a scum read on VE. So my read changed after page 40, not after Day 1.

AND I JUST PROVED YOU WRONG!
##Unvote:
##Vote: FirmTofu
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 21:56 GMT
#3063
On September 25 2013 06:52 FirmTofu wrote:
If you want me to quote some posts I liked, I can. Seems like a waste of time, though. VE is in no danger of getting lynched today. We should be discussing scum.

Please do.

yamato: That's not what Sentinel is saying. He said your case on CR and what marv said about him made him look into CR and after doing so he thought CR was the best lynch.
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raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
September 24 2013 22:08 GMT
#3075
On September 25 2013 07:00 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2013 06:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On September 25 2013 06:52 FirmTofu wrote:
If you want me to quote some posts I liked, I can. Seems like a waste of time, though. VE is in no danger of getting lynched today. We should be discussing scum.

Please do.

yamato: That's not what Sentinel is saying. He said your case on CR and what marv said about him made him look into CR and after doing so he thought CR was the best lynch.

Really?

I'm pretty sure that's not what he said.

Yeah you are right. I somehow messed up with merv telling him to take a look at Coag's games.
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