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On August 20 2013 18:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 18:20 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 20 2013 18:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Yes i understand, but you were the one that draw the assumption that i was "only bluehunting", which i wasn't. :D
And my argument on Onegu was not WIFOMy, maybe it looked like that to you because you had a townread on him. It was, simple logic, let's compare:
1) "Xata&Clarity got roleblocked N1 -> Vivax flipped mafia RB -> unless mafia rb'd one of their own on N1 at least one of them has to be town" Q: Did mafia roleblock one of their own?
2) "Onegu thinks there is a town rb -> Onegu thinks town rb'd Xata N1 -> Onegu thinks SnB is the only one alive who was suspicious of Xata D1 end" Q: What is Onegu's logic for having SnB as a suspect? Why does he think SnB is not likely to be the town rb, and why does he not investigate more on that matter? What if SnB is mafia rb? Why does Onegu not give a crap about that? Dude I broke that shit down. You had to either call me scum for the same logic, or call me scum for being angry with you, both were terrible reasons and it SCREAMED scum making stuff up on the spot. I actually called you scum because of "you refusing to give me information to figure out your alignment better". I know i was not clear enough but it was 50% my fault and 50% you yelling at me for nothing.
Either way it was dumb because you were asking me to go back to read day 1 so I can figure out who has a scumread on me d1. That or you were asking me what I remember from memory and then you would manipulate it the same way you manipulated onegu's answer.
And then onegu gets slight pressure and he martyrs. FUUUUUUUUU
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I'm just surprised the whole thing with me snb and oats blew up so hard in thread.
I don't play pm games often but what I find is that if you can throw someone off their game, you get a lot more information out of their reaction than 20 pms back and forth talking about shit (n0, at least)
Oats asked me for my rolename and I didn't give it. It was partly because I wanted to wifom if I was blue (draw a roleblock or a nk) but partly because it's a themed game and there ARE possible roles that kill people that know your rolename.
Twice it's been mentioned in postgame that town shouldn't have co ordinated their kp shots at night, I don't really understand why that would be the case though. Unlike a single 1-shot vigi, having 6 vigis that do almost no damage and not co ordinating them seems like a disaster, especially when it comes to hp checks afterwards. Why not use it as a 2nd lynch that we can discuss in thread? Where exactly is the downside?
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from scum qt, rayn:
That's what you get for bussing me for no reason.. seriously, there has been no reason to buss me at any point of the game. My argument about Onegu/Clarity was logically perfectly fine whether or not it was wrong or right. All i needed was one smart dude to say "you can both be right, stop it". Apparently town has no smart people left.
No, it didn't make sense. I've had this problem before as scum where I start to believe my own bullshit, but it was still bullshit.
On August 20 2013 18:35 Xatalos wrote:
Scum really had several strong players (and Koshi excels in making me think he's town -.-) so I don't feel too bad. I hope I'm scum next though. I enjoy knowing everything and having 100% trusted allies much more than walking in the dark.
I trusted you! sealbuddies4life
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On August 20 2013 18:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The downside is that nobody ever discussed it in thread later on. :D
We affected the shots so much with our presence it was impossible to track onto anyone specificaly. Everyone looked as good/bad because of the shots. For example, on D1 end we basically decided with iamp who to shoot, he gave all town targets so i was okay with it. Nobody else seemed to give a shit about the house KP.
We had a lot of lurkers though.
gumshoe, kush.. they weren't bad targets. It's just like a lynch. You look back and see who wanted who shot and later put the pieces together.
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All good. This game was pretty enjoyable, the setup is neat. I don't like using TL pms only though I guess I understand why that's the case. Hard to construct something when you have to answer within 10 seconds on irc.
Modkills and lurkers though. I wasn't kidding that by the time mocsta killed himself I just didn't care anymore.
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I hate it when a qt gets too long and removes the button "all messages"
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Nah I believe it when he says he'll try to work with me better. I don't really understand why I have issues with the way rayn posts or explains things. I don't have an issue with rayn as a person or anything, just wanna make that clear, seems like a cool dude.
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Oh and btw FirmTofu, you weren't wrong about your "meta read" on me in your deathpost. The thing is though, you have to consider that I took some heat d1 that made it harder for me to scumhunt.
I don't know if that's my mistake (the pm "lie" was obviously), but when the pressure is on me, which doesn't happen often when I'm town, I have trouble scumhunting. Don't really know why.
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At least i had a good track of who was convincing/who was not and who would do what kind of shit in town. Only thing i fucked up was that on D3 i thought Clarity would lead the town over Xatalos onto SnB lynch (although Vivax helped the town alot in that :/ ).
Yeah. While I wasn't convinced on vivax mainly because he played anti wincon regardless of his alignment, I wasn't against his lynch. There's no point to me saying that in thread though. If I'm pressuring snb that hard and at the same time explain that I'm fine with a vivax lynch then that takes pressure away from snb.
That claim was kinda silly though. Everyone was right to immediately jump on it. I always like to think through the possibilities and talk it through with others before just changing my vote though. I dunno if that looks scummy or whatever.
When I'm town I hardly ever think about if I look scummy, I think that works. Despite soft defending vivax no one ever went "oh clarity might be scum". The only scum that pushed me (kinda) was rayn and even then his argument was that I wasn't making myself readable because I stopped answering his questions which is a silly stance considering the rest of the game, and was never going to get me lynched.
My problem is is that I get myself in a position where I'll never get lynched, and I try to use that to push town goals including being traffic cop when I think it's needed, but my scumhunting is sorely lacking so I can't really lead town into victory.
What I do think however, is that 2-3 townies lurking makes the game 5x as hard.
I think I've learned that I don't really like pm games. It's really cool to have a super strong townread (like xata in this game) where I can just bounce ideas off of, but there were so many times where people were saying someone was town because of pm reasons (I did this once, and it was solstice cause he claimed 2 shot vig), and it made it hard to scumhunt when you just hit a brick wall like that. This was specifically the case with chrom, who I said was scummy in thread all day but enough people called town in pms that I just couldn't bring myself to go against that.
Yamato here's a question for you, what do you classify as a "strong suspicion"? Because I always end up with a really strong read one way or the other, but the longer the game goes the more people have "some of column A (townie), some of column B (townie)" and my read weakens and gets closer to null.
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I think I trick people into thinking I played well or something cause someone said that in titanic too and I feel I played badly in both. I just suck at finding scum. Like I'm really bad at it. And when I do find scum I can't get them lynched and lose confidence in my read. 
I'm sure I'll get better at scumhunting if I just continue playing, which is what I'll do, but it's hard to see if I'm progressing or not.
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I think most townies (me at least) had kinda conceded at that point. Like I don't mean to harp on it too much but mocsta modkill really did stop any momentum town had.
Actually acro if I go back to my d1 notes there's two points that point to you being scum, but I never really revisited my notes
onegu strongly against sharing house lists
onegu quick to defend and call people town, is he scum?
dandel super pressure on koshi makes him look town, dunno about koshi though, titanic makes me uncertain about him
kush is kush. If he ends up being right about stuff he's probably scum.
snb pressures me but then backs off when he notices there's nothing more to say and concludes it's not enough to say I'm scum, totes town.
oats is town for pm reasons
Risen mega posts with bad reads. DI calls it out, iamp soft defends
still no scumreads from onegu
acro calls out vivax for soft defense on oats
solstice wall of defense is MASSIVE, weird scum(?)read on johnny
townread on DI but didnt wanna vote him for lord cause... DL would out himself as scum?
decent defense from johnny, null
acro hard defense on johnny
rayn and acro shit up the thread with pm stuff, rayn looks pretty town but illogical
oberyn votes acro for "stealing" his plan, acro says he wasnt aware that obe posted it in thread
acro doesnt look scummy in this exchange though, johnny pointed out the same
oberyn starts pressuring acro, definitely looks like he wants him lynched
iamp calls out lurkers, xata says they should use kp on lurkers pre d1 flip
xata points out that acro and oberyn can't both be scum, I agree
He seems friendly and helpful to my ideas but his conclusion everytime is "could be, could not be, dunno"
Acro unvotes solstice after "a good night sleep and the urging of iamp and johnny"
I also thought snb was totes town d1, dunno when that changed.
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Risen's opening post really was too crazy to be scum though.
I've never seen a scum give 6 scumreads, 4 of which were clear town and 2 of which were null.
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I tried really hard to get scum to shoot solstice btw, why did that not work?
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On August 20 2013 21:45 Xatalos wrote:
Wait, did Ace post something else before being modkilled? Because all I noticed was "hosts kill me please trolololol"?
Basically he thought what I thought for a brief second when reading vivax flip.
I thought instead of houselist the role pm gave away the scumteam. I guess ace just reacted to that, which modconfirmed him town.
I really don't think ace and mocsta should be punished in the same way, I do believe ace just made a dumb mistake.
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How much did solstice tell chrom. Just that he was a vigi or the fact that he gains hp equal to the damage he deals?
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I think defining a lurker is hard.
Like, sharrant and solstice felt like lurkers this game, but were they? I dunno.
Kush felt like a lurker too...
Like, I feel like I use the term lurker for "not really active anti-town"
I believe there are players who can have 1-2 pages of filter a day and be extremely pro-town, and I wouldn't consider those lurkers.
But anyway, it's annoying. I guess people get different things out of mafia than me when they sign up.
I kinda wanna suggest that some hosts not allow people who have the tendency to lurk but that just seems a bit elitist and arbitrary.
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On August 20 2013 23:39 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:38 Clarity_nl wrote:
I kinda wanna suggest that some hosts not allow people who have the tendency to lurk but that just seems a bit elitist and arbitrary. If I ever hosted a mini, I would do this.
How would you define a lurker in that case marv?
edit: you should totally host a mini
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I kinda like minis. 2 scum 7 town is cool. That said, in most cases scum get completely rolled by an active town in games like that unless there are some very experienced scum players.
A 13 player or 15 player games like that would be cool though. Could always host a game and say "just /in even if you're in a game or waiting for one to start, we'll figure out a date to start when full, preferably when none of the players are in an ongoing game"
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EPT
