GoT Mafia: Lords and Liars - Page 11

On August 12 2013 23:29 Oberyn wrote:
I've gone over the pm's I have received from yamato post red flip:

In PM's, I asked jrkirby if he has been in contact with yamato and he replied that he sent a pm, but did not receive a response. I then asked yamato if he had been in contact with jrkirby and he responded that he has never received anything. When I confronted jrkirby about the conflict, he explained that he was sending the pms to yamato, rather than yamato77. The house PM did refer to him as yamato, without the numbering.

jrkirby told me that he was concerned about the FT lynch and expressed interest in a yamato lynch, refering to him as the scummiest player in the thread.

yamato sent a PM to Onegu stating that we should vote for him because he is the most experienced player on our team. I received the exact same PM. jrkirby indicated that he did not receive the same campaign speech. I find it incredibly odd that he wanted two of us to vote for him, but not the third. When I asked him about it, he claims to have found it incredibly strange not to have heard from him, but he will contact him once he has time. So why does he have time to contact two of us, but not the third?

yamato is not interested in giving an opinion on koshi/sol. He expresses suspcion about s&b, mostly one-liners.

I told yamato that he was currently the priority vig shot if he doesn't start posting and he replied as if he knew he was not the priority shot. Dirty scum Lord?

yamato PM'd me asking for my pms from Acro. He claimed that he was building a case on Acro for day two.

yamato claims vanilla to me this cycle.

On August 12 2013 23:42 Oberyn wrote:
Something I'm considering at the moment is if yamato is our Mr. X, he believed to have been watched, and a red check appears on him for town cred. I suppose we will need to wait for the flip on that one though.

On August 12 2013 23:42 Oberyn wrote:
Something I'm considering at the moment is if yamato is our Mr. X, he believed to have been watched, and a red check appears on him for town cred. I suppose we will need to wait for the flip on that one though.

On August 12 2013 23:47 Oberyn wrote:


From my understanding, last night, before the mafia hits even went through. He claimed dt at night and asked for a check target.

On August 12 2013 23:50 Acrofales wrote:

Firstly, he claimed at night. Second, I just went over the timestamps and I received the result PM from him before Oberyn posted his claim.

On August 12 2013 23:55 kushm4sta wrote:
why do you thin it's a good idea to fakeclaim lol.
##unvote
##vote oberyn
death to fake claimers
punish them for lying
lynch all liars
etx

On August 13 2013 01:45 strongandbig wrote:
So here's what I want to talk about - why has Risen been getting a pass today? I don't even care about him being lord. It sounds completely reasonable that he would be chosen since his house was worried Rayne would die (although it seems like a better plan would have been for three to vote Rayne and Risen to vote himself, that way if Ryan dies Risen would be the next lord automatically). Anyway, we should be pressuring Risen for what's in his filter.

(1) The big entry post - I talked some about this before, but it's total bullshit.
He attacked Oats, Yamato, and DI for playing anti-town, shitting up the thread, fighting over nothing, etc. The problem is, this is exactly what they do EVERY GAME. Oats argues over stupid things, Yamato is touchy as fuck, and DI is the most anti-town town player possible. They are the very definition of easy targets for scum to attack exactly like Risen did - but Risen should have known better than to call them scum and push for their lynch off of it.

(aside: Connection theory! Reads like scum not wanting to either attack their buddy or directly defending them. Although Yamato is super touchy, it is more out of character for him to take a fight so far in the fucking-the-thread direction than it is for Oats to do so, and Risen doesn't actually give any reasons why he thinks Yamato is a better scum target than Oats, he just asserts that his filter looks better.)

In that post, he also calls Xatalos scum based on what boils down in part to a connection theory with his bullshit read on DI. Connection theories with unflipped (or un-scumclaimed) players? Okay, can be done by town, but shouldn't, another easy way for scum to generate reads.

Another thing - just look at that post in general. It's huge, so he must be town right? (just ask austinmcc!) Nope, wrong! A large part of the post is stream-of-consciousness, much easier to write than an actual structured case. Also it's a list-post, shorter reads on large numbers of people, easy for scum to do and looks big. Most of the reads in the post are "easy reads" for scum to make, attacking people for playing in an anti-town fashion rather than for actually being scum and attacking other people for invented reasons. A lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

The rest of his posting shows much less effort put into analyzing the game. An example is how Clarity is still his preferred lynch target in his final posts before N1, despite a lot more information being put into the thread and a lot more public discussion among the principals of that situation. He hasn't made any real cases since his first post, and he hasn't actually followed up on his DI, xatalos, or grackaroni reads. From the clear and huge difference in effort between his first post and the rest of his filter, it's clear that his first post was very much constructed and careful, which imo is a scum thing to do; additionally, the fact that he was careful and put effort into just writing that post makes it even more suspect that his reads in it were so obviously bad in such a specifically scummy way.

So yeah, what I want to hear next is from people who've been in PMs with Risen, whether he's given more to them in terms of reads, cases, and indications that he's actually thinking carefully about the game than he has been in the thread.

On August 12 2013 23:29 Oberyn wrote:
I've gone over the pm's I have received from yamato post red flip:

In PM's, I asked jrkirby if he has been in contact with yamato and he replied that he sent a pm, but did not receive a response. I then asked yamato if he had been in contact with jrkirby and he responded that he has never received anything. When I confronted jrkirby about the conflict, he explained that he was sending the pms to yamato, rather than yamato77. The house PM did refer to him as yamato, without the numbering.

jrkirby told me that he was concerned about the FT lynch and expressed interest in a yamato lynch, refering to him as the scummiest player in the thread.

yamato sent a PM to Onegu stating that we should vote for him because he is the most experienced player on our team. I received the exact same PM. jrkirby indicated that he did not receive the same campaign speech. I find it incredibly odd that he wanted two of us to vote for him, but not the third. When I asked him about it, he claims to have found it incredibly strange not to have heard from him, but he will contact him once he has time. So why does he have time to contact two of us, but not the third?

yamato is not interested in giving an opinion on koshi/sol. He expresses suspcion about s&b, mostly one-liners.

I told yamato that he was currently the priority vig shot if he doesn't start posting and he replied as if he knew he was not the priority shot. Dirty scum Lord?

yamato PM'd me asking for my pms from Acro. He claimed that he was building a case on Acro for day two.

yamato claims vanilla to me this cycle.

On August 13 2013 02:18 Risen wrote:

unsure
was only scum b/c of connection to xatalos
unsure
scum
scum

On August 09 2013 03:27 Risen wrote:
Alrighty so...

Oats v Yamato is either two scum destroying the thread or one of them taking advantage of the other to destroy the thread.

Oats had a really simple mistake that bothered me pointed out by Koshi here in number 1. + Show Spoiler + He explains this away later in the thread as being heuristics. It's more likely a scumslip when you add that he feels the need to respond to inane stuff like he does here. + Show Spoiler + As a town player you shouldn't respond to things like this with more filler that just serve to increase the thread length. As scum it gives you the appearance of activity without appearing pushy. Feels like he's just moving around baiting people and later he'll claim it was all just to get discussion flowing to make scum be active. Unfortunately, the point of having scum talk in thread is to trip them up and catch them in a lie. I think he's scum who wanted to appear townie, started this plan, and then slipped himself on accident. If he hadn't he would have been a solid town read later when he "revealed" his master plan to just get discussion going. I love discussion, and this is why.

As for the Yamato end, he's been consistently null. He trashed up the thread, but at least he didn't lie or change course. I actually really like this part of his filter + Show Spoiler + because to me he's still tunneling Oats, but at least he's found something worth tunneling. Why didn't Oats know about the house powers thing? Because he didn't read the OP. That's fair, I didn't fully read it either. Why did Oats call out Yamato without fully reading the OP? Because he was scum trying desperately to pin Yamato with something and didn't think about the consequences.

Oats is scum, Yamato is null The funny thing is that prior to looking into the filters I thought Yamato would come across as more scummy than Oats, and gave kush a pass while reading through because of that.

WTF is with Dandel Ion destroying the thread single-handedly? No one cares that you think your house should be nuked, it's useless filler. No one cares about your inner dialogue, it isn't actually doing anything productive. If it was giving us your thought process, I'd like it, but it isn't. Finally, we have this masterpiece. + Show Spoiler + Like wat? You know something about s0l the rest of us don't? You trying to win the heart of town s0l as his defender? Or do you know he's scum and are trying to shift from him... either way it's a bad look. Dandel Ion is scum.

I'm looking at Onegu now b/c of thread feelings and I don't see anything inspiring me to chime in. I don't see the contradiction rayne was pointing out. I see why he would think it was a contradiction, but I don't believe it is.

On to Xatalos. First thing that caught my eye. + Show Spoiler + Yamato's rampage was really Yamato AND Oats' rampage. Why are you trying to pin it on one player here? Also, I don't care about your town games, and Yamato isn't new. Comparing yourself to Yamato might hold weight if Yamato was new, but he has plenty of town games for you to look at linked in his profile. But wait, let's be wishy washy and give Yamato advice on not jumping the gun. You know who patronizes in mafia games? Those who are in an argument with another person, mentors, and scum. You weren't in an argument with him, you're not his mentor....... Onwards. + Show Spoiler + You giving yourself an out for when Dandel Ion flips? This is soft as all hell. What's his take on it? How about your take on it, and THEN ask him for his take on it. + Show Spoiler + Why are you defending Koshi? He's perfectly capable of defending himself. + Show Spoiler + What's the use of this post other than to cast suspicion on gumshoe when you haven't even really done so in thread yourself? Why are you hedging all over the place so hard? + Show Spoiler + Finally, he doesn't hedge. He just gives a solid town read openly to the thread. And Dandel has typed out a long summary of the PM conversation he's had and that's town confirming? + Show Spoiler + Grackaroni's list didn't do anything. Koshi's member list itself didn't do anything, either. The discussion caused by talking about the PMs did something. The member list was inconsequential to that. And you know what else helps with scum hunting? Actually giving scum reads and real reasoning for those scum reads. I don't think Xatalos "knowing" lords have 1KP is alignment telling at all and don't think it was a scumslip. + Show Spoiler + People make stupid decisions as town and as scum. And it's really, really setting my scum detector off seeing you in here with these three rapid fire questions when you know how he has to respond. Answer to question 1: He wouldn't intentionally do so, or he might intentionally do so. It's WIFOM. Question 2: If he's doing it intentionally then yes, to cause confusion or further some other agenda, obviously. Question 3: Anything is plausible, this is mafia. You know this, you know the answers to the questions you're asking. Xatalos is scum.

I don't mind Grackaroni coming in and posting without reading the thread, simple mistake. My problem is that he posts the identity of people without asking his house and without reading the thread. That's something major and anyone should know that. It's a WIFOM, though. Did he make a stupid mistake as town, or is he scum trying to appear as having made a stupid mistake. Wash. I DO have a problem with him coming in and saying + Show Spoiler + Why out yourself as the "black sheep"? Iamp didn't feel the need to out you. Why are you cutting off speculation like that? Why are you giving scum that information? Is it because you've already told scum Iamp views you as the black sheep and you no longer care about hiding information? That's the scumtell I'm getting from Grackaroni. I see someone who doesn't care about the protection of information because all the information he has is already being forwarded to his scumbuddies. And why, WHY are you giving out town reads? Do you know Gumshoe is town and are trying to curry favor with him? Xatalos is annoying so town and tunneling two out of three people in his house is town and effort makes him town because scum don't actually try or something. What? I've seen nothing actually useful come out of Grack's mouth. I wouldn't lynch or shoot Grackaroni over someone like Xatalos,Dandel Ion, or Oats, but I think he needs to do something. Right now I have a scum read on him, and it's going to stay that way as long as he doesn't post anything of use.

s0lstice hasn't posted anything. Can't really judge anything. Doesn't look particularly good for him, though.

I'm going to reserve judgement on Clarity for the time being to see how this plays out. It's clear he thinks REDACTED will have his back.

Plenty of lurkers, but the game has just started. Please post your opinions on other people in the thread and tell me what you think about my four scum reads (but really discuss my top 3 of Dandel Ion, Xatalos, and Oats)

On August 13 2013 04:17 Risen wrote:
That's not a connection at all. That was pure speculation and the point would have been made regardless of my case against DI. That was simply me calling out you for having such a useless post.

I'm twisting nothing, you just simply aren't understanding.

On August 13 2013 04:32 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: I swear in a previous game I got into an argument about what is and isn't a contradiction that took up way too much time. To save time, I'll make this final post on the matter...

Replace Dandel Ion in Koshi's post with any other person in this game. You respond with, "Oh XYZ... Are you scum again? What's your take on this post?" and I say the exact same thing replacing Dandel Ion with XYZ. Are you making this useless post distancing yourself from XYZ for when XYZ flips scum?

On August 13 2013 04:44 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: Nvm I think you mean this and you're beginning to make sense

"was only scum b/c of connection to xatalos
unsure"

Right?

On August 13 2013 04:47 Risen wrote:
I may not have written it in the case, but that would have simply weakened my case and distracted from it. I felt the interaction between you two was important. That's not very concrete so it didn't make the post.

Something that bothers me is that there wasn't really ever a response to my last case. Just a bunch of that's stupid posts along with he's crazy town now. People are now suspecting DI openly in thread. Why? Why now when you didn't respond to my case before?

On August 13 2013 04:55 Clarity_nl wrote:
Scum try to emulate a town mindset but they don't always succeed, if they did scum would win 100% of the time.
Saying "what you're saying is WIFOM" is not only, dumb, it's also untrue in this case.

On August 13 2013 04:59 Acrofales wrote:

Oh, I'm suspecting him. There's just no point in jumping the gun and yelling HE'S A BLACKFYRE and waving my arms when there are still a minimum of 80 hours before we can do anything about it.

On August 13 2013 05:06 Acrofales wrote:

Hello Pot, I'm Kettle!

On August 13 2013 05:14 Acrofales wrote:
Not only am I comparing myself to you, but I am claiming that I have been more transparent and have been pushing my scumspects harder than you have, consistently, throughout the game.

In fact, the only one I can be sure of that you suspect of being a Blackfyre is me, and I have felt zero pressure from you.

On August 13 2013 05:17 Acrofales wrote:

I think DI would be a terrible stabbing, and seeing as I am a lord, I am happy to coordinate our swords in our small council. For the record, I think Risen would be a pretty bad target for stabbing as well. Your case against him was refreshing, but I am not convinced and am really looking forward to his case on Rayn.

You know what. Birds, stone, and stuff. @Xatalos: write up a case on whoever you feel is most deserving and I'll write out my thoughts on Rayn.

On August 09 2013 06:11 jrkirby wrote:


Ok, you're leaning town on him, but your afraid of electing him because electing him will allow us to know for sure if he's scum?

Is anyone else thinking this logic is dumb? Catching a guaranteed scum for giving mafia an extra KP and HP check is totally worth it. And you didn't even think that was likely. So... why not vote for him?

+ Show Spoiler +

On August 10 2013 06:49 jrkirby wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

People I want lynched/shot:
1) s0lstice. He claimed he didn't want to elect DI even though he thought that could easily determine if DI was scum. Enough reason to lynch right here.

2) sharant. I've heard he has a bunch of PM's but I haven't seen them. When he get into the thread he just starts defending Kush out of nowhere. None of it seems that useful and the evidence is largely meta. Kush hasn't been getting that much pressure anyway, so why does he need to defend like this?

3) oatsmaster. He posted a bunch of useless arguing with yamato at the beginning, which would be good if he had started making scumcases by now, but he's mostly given out townreads with the occasional we should lynch X with no real case.

4) Yamato. He is clearly the scummiest guy in our house. He didn't PM me until nearly the end of N0 for me to realize I got his real username wrong, and also was asking oberyn and onegu to vote for him. His arguments with oats just served to lengthen the thread without any real substance, and he hasn't posted any scumreads with substance.

On August 10 2013 09:42 jrkirby wrote:
I just checked tofu's filter. Yeah, that guys is always way more active than this. That's not guaranteed scum, but it certainly is a sign.

On August 10 2013 09:52 jrkirby wrote:
Why does s&b say:



That seems scummy. It would make sense if he asked acro to stop playing in character, but lynch him for it? Also this is after Oberyn puts his vote on acro. Perhaps he's trying to push a wagon on someone he knows is town.

The rest of his filter seems fine, but that's pretty scummy there.

On August 09 2013 06:35 jrkirby wrote:
Finally, why have all the houses not posted a list of their members yet?

I think that it's actually beneficial to town to post these lists, and here's why:

1) Once scum have a list of 5 of the houses, they have a list of every house.

2) in a 24 player game, scum almost guaranteed have 4-6 members. Scum are spread out (I think it's random or something, right?) so they already know probably 3-4 houses at the start.

3) 2 (or is it 3?) houses have already posted their list. There's a good chance this fills in the missing info for scum.

4) All the house lists will probably be posted by day 2 anyway. Scum will only be missing this info for a short time.

5) Scum know all the lords already. This further helps them fill in the gaps.

6) Knowing the houses is not too beneficial to scum. Scum are more likely to want to eliminate every non-scum player in a house than an entire house (based off my possibly flawed logic - they can use this to WIFOM, be careful).

7) Knowing the houses is beneficial to town. We can help predict who will be lord in later days, we can help predict who is likely to be shot. We know who can PM a certain player, so it's easier to find people with reads on them. We don't think two people are on a scumteam together when they're just house buddies. Things are simpler, we don't get confused when REDACTED is posted. The list goes on.

8) Displaying all houses gives more info to town than it gives to scum.

9) Transparency is beneficial to town, and giving out house lists helps with transparency.

I can think of one good reason why we might not want to give out house lists:

1) There might be 3P that wants to eliminate a house, or secondary objectives for scum to eliminate a house. This is entirely speculation though, so I don't put too much weight into it.

On August 10 2013 06:58 jrkirby wrote:


The first PM I got from onegu was that we should elect oberyn because he was experienced. I PM'd Oberyn a bunch before deciding to elect oberyn, but the campaign kinda started with onegu. Without the association though, this isn't inherently scummy in my opinion.