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I'm also pretty sure there is no SK.
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@FirmTofu
Don't solicit votes this time. I want to see people's instincts.
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And I know it's tempting, but people should refrain from speculating on the Power Roles at this time.
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On June 27 2013 11:12 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 11:06 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
Spicy is town. This is a winnable game. It's super bad luck that our best role happened to be our most skilled player (easily drawing the mafia shot), but the game is close to being figured out. I guess I'll start the wagon, if no one objects.
##Vote: Onegu As far as I can tell, your entire town read on Spicy is based on Chromatically being the shot rather than you. As you said, he was in general the best shot. I don't see how this argument makes sense at all. Show nested quote +
hz and onegu are my worst reads. You're on your own for them until I can collect my thoughts better. I haven't breadcrumbed some secret message about them, so if I'm about to go down, you all have to sort out that mess on your own.
I'm going to need an actual case from you on Onegu, including a reply to my comments about him here before I take your vote seriously. For that matter, I'd like to see your opinion on my comments on Spicy, too. If we start a "wagon of justice" on Onegu, ride it all day, and he flips town, we're pretty screwed. I'd like to at least discuss other options.
Then discuss other options. What's your case?
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Wow. Aqua might have been scum all along. This looks like a desperate vote to try to get ME SPECIFICALLY to pull off the onegu wagon.
Going to revisit all the Aqua heat. Anyone care to update their case on him?
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On June 27 2013 11:29 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:On June 27 2013 11:12 Aquanim wrote:On June 27 2013 11:06 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
Spicy is town. This is a winnable game. It's super bad luck that our best role happened to be our most skilled player (easily drawing the mafia shot), but the game is close to being figured out. I guess I'll start the wagon, if no one objects.
##Vote: Onegu As far as I can tell, your entire town read on Spicy is based on Chromatically being the shot rather than you. As you said, he was in general the best shot. I don't see how this argument makes sense at all.
hz and onegu are my worst reads. You're on your own for them until I can collect my thoughts better. I haven't breadcrumbed some secret message about them, so if I'm about to go down, you all have to sort out that mess on your own.
I'm going to need an actual case from you on Onegu, including a reply to my comments about him here before I take your vote seriously. For that matter, I'd like to see your opinion on my comments on Spicy, too. If we start a "wagon of justice" on Onegu, ride it all day, and he flips town, we're pretty screwed. I'd like to at least discuss other options. Aqua, Chromatically and I have made the case for Onegu's lynch extremely clear. Please read our respective filters for more information. I wouldn't expect Hurricane to be the one to justify the wagon to you. You can just see that confirmed town flip Parity Cop Chromatically wanted him dead. Chrom did not seem to think Onegu was scum. He actually thought Spicy and Lone were the most likely scum.
You could not be more wrong. Keep reading.
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On June 27 2013 14:15 Onegu wrote:
I will be filter diving again today. Btw we are so unlucky to lose parity cop night one as he is most likely the most powerful role. And again my apathy isnt a scum tell, I didnt care I posted I didnt care and I didnt hide. I will admit not voteing on a wagon looks bad but the way I did it isnt a scum tell. I wasnt hideing my opinion I was forthcomeing. I am going to look at stim and lonemeow close today.
So you're off Alakaslam and Aqua now?
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LoneMeow, I haven't seen any recent scum reads from you, who are you suspecting currently and why?
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On June 28 2013 02:50 LoneMeow wrote:Okay, after reading a bit more I think I want to lynch Alakaslam. He's very spammy and posts a lot of fluff (he posted the Venn diagram multiple times). Doesn't give scum reads and when he does it's in a very non-committal way, "gut feels" and so. And now he goes for Stim, the easy lurker choice, and this is how he wants to get Stim lynched: Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 14:51 Alakaslam wrote:But my actual original self made scumread that I'm not very proud of but that I'll stand by is StimaDDict. As the other policy lynch I would say vote him, but we don't have the manpower for policy lynches anymore! SO- Let's go, make cases, PROVE OUR TOWNIE INNOCENCE (I think we have neglected that some of us  ) and MOST importantly SCUMHUNT WITH PRECISION! I'll work on StimaDDict, I figure I have made a case I had better make it stronger. Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 15:09 Alakaslam wrote:
Here is how I will work on Stim.
StimaDDict. Have you given up or what? Has anything changed about your opinion on Aquanim? That's the worse "case" on anyone I've seen, and this whole thing gives me the vibe that he's just massively non-committal. I get the same feel from his voting antics on day 1, first claiming he's not going to lynch Xzavier then voting for him anyway without much more of a comment than that he read Aquanim's case. Generally, I read him as trying to look active but not actually participating much, and that I find very scummy. ##Vote: Alakaslam
This fits with LoneMeow's profile. Lonemeow has demonstrated a bias against posters who are poor at communicating their ideas. (Gotard and Umasi in XLII, Xzavier and Alakaslam in this game.) That said, this track record isn't amazing (all confirmed town except Alakaslam, so far). I don't want to hold it against you, LoneMeow, but recognizing biases in your play is sometimes a helpful reality check. I would strongly recommend you attempt to look past the rambling (not because it's not important, but because you've already analysed it), and see if you can't derive motivation from the posts. Specifically for Alakaslam, I'd check out his martyr post mid-Day 1. (I won't quote it here, because he should have to defend himself.)
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Some points on Onegu that I think deserve refreshing:
Extremely Anti-meta...
On June 24 2013 16:10 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 15:46 Alakaslam wrote:On June 24 2013 15:35 Onegu wrote:On June 24 2013 15:32 Alakaslam wrote:
I know I sai I'd go but this came up.
From the post for us newbs:
"Please do not talk about any ongoing games either in-game or pre-game. This can affect other games and is unacceptable. Please do not refer to outside-of- thread activity of players in this thread."
I have already messed up in this regard and I apologize. But note some folks have also talked about meta from previous newbie games and I don't think we are allowed to do that either. Will ask In green tomorrow when not trying to go to bed and when at computer. (iPhone)
We are ok since the games we are talking about have finished already. Sweet! Thanks again Onegu. I think I'll read those then- Tomorrow. Man this is worse than angry birds, I am thoroughly addicted. For now here is a list, so ALL of town can meta :D http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412757http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407058http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359Sorry that there is no meta on me, I'm that new. Note that some players may not only have played newbie games. Search their names! How late you want me up, midnight? I get up at 5 tomorrow! Also, check that you don't get into the above error first. Ok guys meta on peoples play you shold have played with that person at least 5 times, as this is impossible please stop trying to meta peoples play. It is ok to infer somethings on game setup, but people are still learning thier playstyle in a newbie game so you cannot base a scum read on meta play in noob games...
On June 25 2013 01:05 Onegu wrote:
It is bad to connect meta on noobs because depending on what worked one game and what didnt work they will change how they play, meta is forming patterns based on peoples play, you cannot form a pattern on what someone did after only 2 -3 games. And I was refering to your asking about ongoing games when I said we are fine because we are citing games already finished, it had nothing to do with who you are citing but what you are asking about. I want you to form cases based on peoples posts and ask questions not go find old games and base you thoughts on what a coach did in one of his old games.
On June 25 2013 13:36 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 13:28 Aquanim wrote:
Him saying the bolded part really bothers me, it is a failsafe for him to later say his gut lead him to make votes without having to make cases behind it
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931¤tpage=18#344http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386911¤tpage=53#1045Mate, are you in any way familiar with my meta? If I lead a wagon with serious intent to lynch somebody there WILL be a case.
The other big thing about him is he kept the NN thing going way to long almost half his posts deal with the NN, when it is a bad idea, what if the NN claims day one but scum counterclaims day 4 we still dont know who is who it only give scum an advantage and for him to harp on it over and over is scummy to me.
STILL this? 1) A difference of opinions on policy is not scum-indicative 2) If I knew that the NN claiming was obviously scum-favoured and that I had no chance to make it happen, why would I suggest it as town or scum? It would make me look bad either way. Your reasons for voting me are all 12 hours old. It seems a very convenient time for you to bring those up now that there are a couple of other votes on me. On June 25 2013 13:13 Xzavier wrote:
OMGUS more Still pathetic. Make a real case or eat rope. As I have said meta is useless in a noobie game as people are still figureing out thier playstyle and as I was about to sleep 12 hours ago and I just woke up I dont see how the timeing is wierd...
... then uses Meta to defend StiM.
On June 26 2013 02:21 Onegu wrote:
And stim played this exact way last noob game and was VT, I see him as VT this game and his lynch acomplishes nothing.
Picks on the most scatter-brained townie (umasi / alakaslam) in both XLII and XLIII games. Even links the two...
On June 25 2013 02:47 Onegu wrote:
Ebwop
I figured it out Alakaslam is Umasi's cocaine dealer!!!
...and later admits that he views Alakaslam as the most inexperienced mafia player in the game
On June 26 2013 15:45 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 14:28 FirmTofu wrote:
So Alakaslam, if you want to clear yourself in my eyes, you are going to have to vote Onegu. That is the only way I can know for sure that you guys aren't on the same team.
If he flips town(which is extremely unlikely), you are cleared of all blame.
If he flips scum, you will be scrutinized, but I will take some time to reconsider because you did vote for him.
Voting for Onegu is a win-win situation for you if you are town. The only reason you wouldn't vote him would be if you are scum.
The ball is in your court. You feel you need to bully the most inexperianced mafia player to vote for me? You have no case except a bogus scum tell so you have to bully someone to vote with you?
Tries to set up a Day 2 lynch for Aqua on Day 1 when he switches his vote from Aqua to Alakaslam
On June 25 2013 18:08 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 17:35 Aquanim wrote:On June 25 2013 17:27 hzflank wrote:Xzavier, Onegu and I all seem to have similar opinions on scum voting, yet we all seem to have greatly differing personalities. This leads me to believe that Xzavier and Onegu are town, as I think they arrived at their opinions by looking at the situation from a town point of view. The only slight worry I have on Xzavier is: On June 25 2013 14:33 Xzavier wrote:
Whats the massive scum yell. cuz im not gonna lie. i skimmed threw all the noisy neighbor spam just to see who was asking for them to claim. no other part of it means anything to me xD But that could just be a character trait or a lack of time. On the whole I am uncomfortable with the votes on Xzavier. Is there anything about Xzavier and Onegu's play which makes you think they're town besides where their vote is? Personally, I can't see anything about their play which makes me think they're looking at this game with a town mentality and actually searching for scum, rather than just jumping on the only other wagon going. I think they are likely scum but I have a much townier read on you because I can see you're thinking about the game and critically evaluating your reads. Their arguments, on the other hand, are mostly "herp derp he disagreed with us about nosy neighbours" and "look at this single post and how it agrees with something someone else said, that's so scummy!". I don't think either of them could sincerely believe I'm scum based on the arguments they've presented. You said you had some questions for me, will they be forthcoming soon? Ok fine I will admit my case on you with my own findings isnt that strong. And looking at Alakaslam again he is my stronger case. ##: UNVOTE
##: VOTE ALAKASLAMBut if we lynch Xzavier and he flips town we will be lynching you day 2.
Post-flip announces that he will be leading the Aqua bandwagon. Then proceeds to vote for FirmTofu:
On June 26 2013 12:44 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 12:11 FirmTofu wrote:
Alright, we got the bad end of the deal with that flip, but we can still make the best of it.
Scenario 1: Scum initiated or hopped on the lynch on Xzavier early on in the game. This would mean that LoneMeow/Chromatically/Aquanim are all potential scum.
How likely is this scenario?
Earlier on in the game, we had Chromatically and Aquanim go at it with a full-on slug fest. Although hzflank had a theory that both could be scum, it remains to be seen that that is the case. HOWEVER, this is still a possibility because mafia have their QT chat available during the day and coordinate in that way.
Of the three, I would think that LoneMeow is the most likely to be scum because all he did was initiate the bandwagon that led to the demise of town and contributed little of substance.
Scenario 2: Scum did not initiate or hop on the lynch on Xzavier.
Q. How would these scum react when they see a bandwagon forming on a townie?
A. They would probably try to dissociate themselves from the bandwagon unless it was unlikely that the lynch would go through. Because the lynch was likely to go through, they would behave in the aforementioned way.
Okay great! Let's make a list of the players they weren't associated with the bandwagon for the majority of the game.
Note: I am including people that jumped on the bandwagon when it was inevitable.
1) hzflank
2) Onegu
3) Spicydinosaur
4) StiMaDDict
5) Alakaslam
6) Hurricane Sponge
Of these people, hzflank and Hurricane Sponge are playing extremely pro-town by constantly talking about the game. This should not eliminate them from the running; however, we can temporarily narrow down the list.
1) Onegu
2) Spicydinosaur
3) StiMaDDict
4) Alakaslam
Onegu:
Onegu votes for Aqua, then a few posts later votes for Alakaslam. Most importantly, he declares his apathy toward the lynch of Aquanim vs Xzavier!
The Case Against Onegu: Onegu is scum and Aquanim and Xzavier are both town. Therefore, Onegu is apathetic towards the lynch. He knows both will flip town, so he immediately dissociates himself with that lynch and votes Alakaslam who will not get lynched that day.
I will go into further detail about my other reads, but first, I would like to get some opinions about my analysis.
Wow like I told you guys before I slept if xzavier is lynched it will give us a ton of information, and yes now I will be leading the aquanim bandwagon as I felt he was scum and his vote and case on him before makes me feel he is the scummiest. Also makeing the claim I dont care brings way to much heat on me if I am scum when I can just put my vote back on aqua saying I should be on a bandwagon.
On June 28 2013 01:27 Onegu wrote:
Ebwop
But for now you are more scummy and my vote is on you
##VOTE: FirmTofu
Defense for day 1 voting apathy is WIFOM...
On June 26 2013 12:44 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 12:11 FirmTofu wrote:
Alright, we got the bad end of the deal with that flip, but we can still make the best of it.
Scenario 1: Scum initiated or hopped on the lynch on Xzavier early on in the game. This would mean that LoneMeow/Chromatically/Aquanim are all potential scum.
How likely is this scenario?
Earlier on in the game, we had Chromatically and Aquanim go at it with a full-on slug fest. Although hzflank had a theory that both could be scum, it remains to be seen that that is the case. HOWEVER, this is still a possibility because mafia have their QT chat available during the day and coordinate in that way.
Of the three, I would think that LoneMeow is the most likely to be scum because all he did was initiate the bandwagon that led to the demise of town and contributed little of substance.
Scenario 2: Scum did not initiate or hop on the lynch on Xzavier.
Q. How would these scum react when they see a bandwagon forming on a townie?
A. They would probably try to dissociate themselves from the bandwagon unless it was unlikely that the lynch would go through. Because the lynch was likely to go through, they would behave in the aforementioned way.
Okay great! Let's make a list of the players they weren't associated with the bandwagon for the majority of the game.
Note: I am including people that jumped on the bandwagon when it was inevitable.
1) hzflank
2) Onegu
3) Spicydinosaur
4) StiMaDDict
5) Alakaslam
6) Hurricane Sponge
Of these people, hzflank and Hurricane Sponge are playing extremely pro-town by constantly talking about the game. This should not eliminate them from the running; however, we can temporarily narrow down the list.
1) Onegu
2) Spicydinosaur
3) StiMaDDict
4) Alakaslam
Onegu:
Onegu votes for Aqua, then a few posts later votes for Alakaslam. Most importantly, he declares his apathy toward the lynch of Aquanim vs Xzavier!
The Case Against Onegu: Onegu is scum and Aquanim and Xzavier are both town. Therefore, Onegu is apathetic towards the lynch. He knows both will flip town, so he immediately dissociates himself with that lynch and votes Alakaslam who will not get lynched that day.
I will go into further detail about my other reads, but first, I would like to get some opinions about my analysis.
Wow like I told you guys before I slept if xzavier is lynched it will give us a ton of information, and yes now I will be leading the aquanim bandwagon as I felt he was scum and his vote and case on him before makes me feel he is the scummiest. Also makeing the claim I dont care brings way to much heat on me if I am scum when I can just put my vote back on aqua saying I should be on a bandwagon.
...when he's already proven he's willing to do this as mafia in XLII.
Has a history as mafia of doing the 'vote for who i think i scummiest even though they have no chance of being lynched today' play (He was the only one who voted on Umasi on Day 1 in XLII, much like he was the only one to vote on Alakslam in Day One here)
On June 08 2013 08:46 ObviousOne wrote:
Vote SlaveCount
LoneMeow (1): Umasi, StiMaDDict
Skanjab1s (0): iVLosK!, Gotard
iVLosK! (0): Xzavier, Umasi
Spicydinosaur (0): Skanjab1s
Firere345 (5): Spicydinosaur, Skanjab1s, fferyllt, Gotard, iVLosK!, Skanjab1s, Xzavier
Gotard (4): Skanjab1s, Xzavier, iVLosK!, Umasi, Firere345, LoneMeow, Xzavier
StimmAddict (0): iVLosK!
Umasi (1): Onegu
Not Voting: tE_, Yavanna
Firere345 is currently set to be lynched. Voting is mandatory. This is a plurality lynch.
The deadline is at [unparsable timestamp format], in [unparsable timestamp format]
If there's a mistake, let me know!
On June 26 2013 10:57 geript wrote:
Day 1 Final Vote Count
Chromatically (0): Aquanim, hzflank
fyfy (0): FirmTofu
hzflank (0): Chromatically
FirmTofu (0): Alakaslam
Spicydinosaur (0): FirmTofu
Xzavier (7): LoneMeow, Chromatically, Aquanim, FirmTofu, Hurricane Sponge, hzflank, Alakaslam
Aquanim (2): hzflank, Xzavier, Onegu, Alakaslam, StiMaDDict
Alakaslam (1): Onegu
Hurricane Sponge (1): Spicydinosaur
StiMaDDict (0): Hurricane Sponge, hzflank
Not Voting:
Xzavier the High School Student -- Vanilla Town has been stomped to death. His last words were, "Save the town power rangers. Combine the zords to make the megaultradragonzord and do karate type stuff with it. Let my death be a beacon of hope to all the AAAAAAaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhahgggaaghghhhhghhahghgagagghaghhaghg."
fyfy the High School Student -- Vanilla Town didn't look both ways when crossing the street and got crushed by the megaultradragonzord as it stopped at starbucks to get a cup of coffee. Power Rangers always need coffee to be able to do their stunts.
Night 1 actions must be sent in by [unparsable timestamp format]
Night 1 ends in [unparsable timestamp format]
Likes to announce that specific townies are 'noob town' in both games.
On June 25 2013 02:46 Onegu wrote:
Umm not sure where you are going with this... I dont understand half your posts, but if you give me reasons you think I am scum I will be happy to defend myself and adress you points.
About Hz he doesnt post alot of fluff unless you want to count the NN posts, I also just filtered him when you asked and saw him make scum reads. Some of it maybe sheeping but I dont think scum would do that to much, at least he is creating scum reads with some thought behind them. I see newbie town who isnt confident in his reads.
On June 24 2013 12:52 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
Ugh, let's avoid the 'should we lynch lurkers talk' shall we?
I'm gonna go ahead and post the play I had written earlier this week analyzing this game from a pro-town perspective. If any of my analysis is off-base, please jump in and steer me back on track.
Pre-written segment starts now:
Alright, chums. First let me state that in NO WAY is the following message a call for a mass claim. If you are the Parity Cop (assuming you even exist), DO NOT SAY SO. In fact, if you're our town's parity cop, it's probably better if you appear to ignore what I'm about to say completely. Same goes for Trackers and Watchers. DO NOT CLAIM. But read carefully, because you are a big part of whether we succeed or fail (whether we follow my plan or not).
Now everyone, pay attention: Looking over the roles, the extremely juicy pro-town potential jumped right off the page at me, as I hope it did to many of you. Trackers can tell us if a person visits someone. Pretty good, but not nearly as good as the Watcher, who can pick a person and sees all who visit them. Obviously, this means we can try to guess the guy who's going to be mafia-killed, and we have a couple shots at seeing if he either gets visited, or manage to Track the mafia member who happens to be tagged to do the deed. Not great odds on either, but still better than nothing.
My plan utilizes each role to their maximum potential. Because we are not guaranteed to have a Tracker, Watcher, or even a Parity Cop, it's important that for the roles we DO get, we use them efficiently. The Watcher needs to guess the target they think will be mafia-killed tonight. This is up to your judgement, but I'll make a recommendation later today.
The fun part comes with the Tracker and the Nosy Neighbor (and by extension Parity Cop). The Tracker should secretly track the Nosy Neighbor. AGAIN, MR. OR MRS. TRACKER: DO NOT CLAIM NOW. If we have a Nosy Neighbor, they should claim IMMEDIATELY. Once the Tracker can confirm that the Nosy Neighbor is in fact moving around at night, but not visiting the person who got Mafia-killed, WE CAN ESTABLISH HIM AS TOWN. This is a big deal. The Parity Cop can then tag the confirmed Nosy Neighbor as Town and start measuring up suspects against them. If he gets a 'Different' claim, the other person is Scum. If he gets 'Same', they are town.
I can elaborate further, but I feel like you can all piece together whatever holes are out there without me holding your hand even further. This is an extremely pro-town set-up (assuming there aren't a bunch of red herrings in which case, Hi I'm sponge, and I just gave you all the book on me.) and I'd like to move fast before mafia can organize their thoughts in their private little forum. If we move fast, and force independent action, they lose one of their many advantages. Haveing a early day one post about reveals is very bad, no matter how good or bad someones role is. You have to remember scum have a tracker also so if they track the NN to someone they get a stronger read he is blue than just NN, if it is revealed then scum tracker doesnt have to worry about that possibility and just blue hunt. Second it isnt a big deal to confirm someone as town, it is a big deal to confirm someone as scum. You idea has alot of holes and the logic behind it is terribad. As such you are noob town to me.
Has made actual cases this game; did not as mafia in XLII
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BIG PLAYS
Alakaslam, please respond. Everyone else, analyze VERY CAREFULLY before you post.
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EBWOP: Unless, of course, someone else is the actual Watcher. Then we need a counter-claim immediately.
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This is the appropriate action at this time:
##unvote Onegu
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It's also important not to try to deduce out loud WHY Onegu chose Alakaslam as his target at this time. It's important to figure out some reasons on your own, but we need to hear it from him. (Otherwise, if someone posts a flawless 'Out' for him, he could just lie and say 'Yeah, it was because of that')
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It's pretty consistent with his other bed-times, looking back at the other game and this one.
At least he got the info to us now, but I agree... it's not ideal to drop something this big in the room and then leave for 8 hours.
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On June 28 2013 08:32 FirmTofu wrote:
I believe his "strongest town read" is hzflank or Spicy
By the process of elimination, it cannot be Alakaslam, me, or Aquanim because he has stated his suspicions for all of us.
It cannot be LoneMeow or StiM because a lurker cannot be rational person's strongest town read.
It probably isn't Hurricane because Hurricane is currently pushing a strong case against him.
The only players left are Spicy and hzflank.
I do not think speculating on this helps the town at all, and I think you're on the wrong track anyway. Regardless, Onegu is correct for trying to shield the identity of his strongest town read, and I even think he made it a little TOO obvious when he said what he did.
On June 28 2013 08:44 FirmTofu wrote:
He is claiming that either Spicy or hzflank is a blue town role that visited Alakaslam last right.
He refuses to say which of the two, but it is very easy to narrow down for any observer. What purpose did it serve to keep town in the dark?
Either hzflank or Spicy needs to confirm what Onegu is saying about them, otherwise an Onegu lynch remains inevitable.
Even if hzflank or Spicy confirm, we have to consider that they may be in a mafia team together. We will need to gather evidence for and against this and analyze it with the information we have at our disposal.
It could also be the case that Onegu is a mafia tracker who tracked a town hzflank or Spicy to Alakaslam's house. We would also have to find evidence to refute this possibility.
This whole post should be ignored. You are on the wrong track, Tofu. You're starting with way too many assumptions, and not vetting yourself as you expand thereafter.
Still catching up on thread, but these thoughts were urgent and needed to be posted.
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On June 28 2013 08:56 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lazy as shit Vote Count
Onegu (1): Hurricane Sponge, FirmTofu
FirmTofu (1): Onegu
Alakaslam (1): LoneMeow
StiMaDDict (2): Aquanim, hzflank
Not Voting:
Alakaslam, StiMaDDict, Spicydinosaur
If I screwed up somewhere, let me know!
As of now, StiMaDDict is set to be rocketed into the sun by lazors and giant robots.
Day 2 ends in [unparsable timestamp format]
Add Hurricane Sponge to 'Not Voting' please
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I was cautious of the Stim wagon because it could have easily been explained as a mafia counter-wagon to protect Onegu. It could still be a mafia-backed wagon, but there is also the possibility that the Town started another Town-Town race and mafia were willing to sit back.
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On June 28 2013 09:11 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 08:57 Aquanim wrote:On June 28 2013 08:47 FirmTofu wrote:On June 28 2013 08:41 Aquanim wrote:
By the way, FirmTofu, my reply to your case is a little redundant now that Onegu has claimed - do you still want to see it? Nothing is redundant. Please show it. Here it is. + Show Spoiler +I'll go through FirmTofu's case point by point. + Show Spoiler +On June 27 2013 20:43 FirmTofu wrote:FirmTofu's Case Against OneguPoint #1: Onegu seems to be looking for reasons to vote me that he doesn't necessarily even agree with. Example: Onegu initially states that meta is bad and you should "stop trying to meta peoples play." Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 16:10 Onegu wrote:On June 24 2013 15:46 Alakaslam wrote:On June 24 2013 15:35 Onegu wrote:On June 24 2013 15:32 Alakaslam wrote:
I know I sai I'd go but this came up.
From the post for us newbs:
"Please do not talk about any ongoing games either in-game or pre-game. This can affect other games and is unacceptable. Please do not refer to outside-of- thread activity of players in this thread."
I have already messed up in this regard and I apologize. But note some folks have also talked about meta from previous newbie games and I don't think we are allowed to do that either. Will ask In green tomorrow when not trying to go to bed and when at computer. (iPhone)
We are ok since the games we are talking about have finished already. Sweet! Thanks again Onegu. I think I'll read those then- Tomorrow. Man this is worse than angry birds, I am thoroughly addicted. For now here is a list, so ALL of town can meta :D http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412757http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407058http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359Sorry that there is no meta on me, I'm that new. Note that some players may not only have played newbie games. Search their names! How late you want me up, midnight? I get up at 5 tomorrow! Also, check that you don't get into the above error first. Ok guys meta on peoples play you shold have played with that person at least 5 times, as this is impossible please stop trying to meta peoples play. It is ok to infer somethings on game setup, but people are still learning thier playstyle in a newbie game so you cannot base a scum read on meta play in noob games... Then, when he wants to make a case against me, he uses my failure to use meta as an excuse to call me scummy. Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 20:58 Onegu wrote:On June 24 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:As an aside, I would prefer if the accusations remained within the confines of this game and this game only. That is to say, judging people on the differences between their past games and this one is a rather boring way to play the game. Again this is jsut posting about a discussion we were haveing and posting something on it but not actually giving a good reason. Sorry it is boring is not a legitimate reason to do or not do something in mafia. It seems like Onegu has differing views on meta depending on when it is convenient for him to think one way or another. Inconsistency can be a sign that a player is not seriously analysing the thread, which reflects a scum-mentality. However, I don't think Onegu is being inconsistent with his views on meta here. The first of Onegu's posts quoted here is saying that Onegu thinks that we should not use meta. This post isn't particularly useful but not all posts are. The second of Onegu's posts is observing that FirmTofu's post (which also states that we shouldn't use meta) does not contain a particularly good reason for not using meta. And to be honest, I partially agree with him. While it's a legitimate view for FirmTofu to hold, just because something is "boring" doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Onegu's post does NOT say that he disagrees with FirmTofu about whether meta should be used, only with the argument which FirmTofu used. Summary: I see no contradiction here. In fact, observing that someone whose opinion you agree with has nevertheless justified that opinion poorly indicates a reasonable level of analysis to me. + Show Spoiler +
Point #2: Onegu switched his vote from Aquanim to Alakaslam rather arbitrarily, suggesting that he knew Aquanim would flip town and everyone would blame him, so he moved to his "second best" scum read. Example: Here we see Onegu buiding a case for Aquanim and establishing that he believes Alakaslam is "noob scum" and is a lower priority lynch to Aquanim. I have bolded all relevant areas. Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:58 Onegu wrote:On June 25 2013 16:48 FirmTofu wrote:On June 25 2013 16:45 Onegu wrote:On June 25 2013 16:33 Aquanim wrote:On June 25 2013 16:01 Onegu wrote:On June 25 2013 15:50 Aquanim wrote:On June 25 2013 15:48 fyfy wrote:
I'm getting the read now that Aquanim is more scum than Xzavier as Aqua seems to be extremely defensive and I maintain my belief that Xzavier just types like a scum. Reading through the discussion, I am under the belief that Aquanim is scum.
##Vote: Aquanim Can you explain this some more? What exactly about my play do you think is scum-motivated? Can you please post your case against me as the only thing you have said is I didnt respond when things were going on, well I was going to sleep when HZ posted his case, I responded to the NN thing and have scum hunted and tried to create a useful town atmosphere. I have no idea what this request has to do with the post you quoted, but whatever... The first page and a half or so of your filter is just talking about policy, power roles and random fluff without any particular intention of finding scum. This isn't damning in as of itself, early game does tend to be like that, but the entirety of your efforts in the direction of finding scum is an overwhelming tunnel of myself. As far as I can tell, you haven't looked at anyone else at all, and endlessly tunneling a likely lynch target for the day while repeating the same old arguments (made by other people before you, mostly) over and over is a good way to look active while not actually bringing anything new to the table or having to pretend to do some original scumhunting. You haven't made any significant and new contributions to the thread, which is scum's natural state. That being said, I think it's possible that you're town and that you think tunneling me like this is accomplishing something, which is why I'm voting Xzavier over you. Actually I have made a scum hunt albit small on alakaslam, I think he is noob scum which isnt as important as killing a scum who knows what they are doing. Jesus Christ bud, if you think he's scum, by all means vote him. It's not like you know of any scum who know what they're doing, so you not voting for Alakasam is extremely suspicious to me. If I have 2 scum reads I am going to vote for the one that is the biggest threat to town. And the reason I think he is scum is he posts only fluff offers no posts to help town and offers no reads on anyone at all. The only thing he has said is spicy and onegu defend yourself. Then he dissapears, I feel this is super noob scum play but in no way is dangerous to town, on the other hand aqua has posted dangerous even harmful ideas toward town. Then, as soon as he is pressured, he backs away from Aquanim. CONTEXT! At this point, removing his vote caused the tiebreak scenario between the lynch of Xzavier and the lynch of Aquanim to be lifted. In essence, this move sealed Xzavier's fate and saved Aquanim from being a probable lynch. This ensured that Onegu would not look suspicious post-lynch because he wouldn't be responsible for the death of a townie.Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 18:08 Onegu wrote:On June 25 2013 17:35 Aquanim wrote:On June 25 2013 17:27 hzflank wrote:Xzavier, Onegu and I all seem to have similar opinions on scum voting, yet we all seem to have greatly differing personalities. This leads me to believe that Xzavier and Onegu are town, as I think they arrived at their opinions by looking at the situation from a town point of view. The only slight worry I have on Xzavier is: On June 25 2013 14:33 Xzavier wrote:
Whats the massive scum yell. cuz im not gonna lie. i skimmed threw all the noisy neighbor spam just to see who was asking for them to claim. no other part of it means anything to me xD But that could just be a character trait or a lack of time. On the whole I am uncomfortable with the votes on Xzavier. Is there anything about Xzavier and Onegu's play which makes you think they're town besides where their vote is? Personally, I can't see anything about their play which makes me think they're looking at this game with a town mentality and actually searching for scum, rather than just jumping on the only other wagon going. I think they are likely scum but I have a much townier read on you because I can see you're thinking about the game and critically evaluating your reads. Their arguments, on the other hand, are mostly "herp derp he disagreed with us about nosy neighbours" and "look at this single post and how it agrees with something someone else said, that's so scummy!". I don't think either of them could sincerely believe I'm scum based on the arguments they've presented. You said you had some questions for me, will they be forthcoming soon? Ok fine I will admit my case on you with my own findings isnt that strong. And looking at Alakaslam again he is my stronger case. ##: UNVOTE
##: VOTE ALAKASLAMBut if we lynch Xzavier and he flips town we will be lynching you day 2.
The explanation that Onegu jumped from voting me to Alakaslam because he didn't want to take responsibility for my lynch is plausible. However, I also think it's plausible that Onegu, as town, reassessed his case on me and found that it was weaker than his case on Alakaslam, which is indeed how he justified it: On June 25 2013 18:08 Onegu wrote:
...
Ok fine I will admit my case on you with my own findings isnt that strong. And looking at Alakaslam again he is my stronger case.
##: UNVOTE
##: VOTE ALAKASLAM
...
But if we lynch Xzavier and he flips town we will be lynching you day 2. I think this is an entirely reasonable town reaction. He realises that the case he's not voting is the stronger one for as long as he doesn't know Xzavier's alignment, and so he switches to it. Obviously, knowing the alignment of Xzavier could change his reads - a lot of the play in day 1 centred around Xzavier, knowing his alignment is obviously going to give you a lot of context for your reads. Making decisions conditional on which way somebody flips isn't something which I think would come naturally to scum. + Show Spoiler +
Point #3: Onegu was wanted to lynch Aquanim if Xzavier flipped town, but post-lynch, he didn't even pursue Aquanim at all.
(See last quoted post) The most critical part of this post lies in the last sentence. What changed? Why did he give up on Aquanim? Nearly all of Onegu's case for me relies on events that happened prior to this post. There is absolutely no reason for him to suddenly switch his vbest scum read from Aquanim to me. A townie in this position after Xzavier's flip as town would pursue Aquanim to no end. The only explanation here is that Onegu is scum, and he sees me as a greater threat to his mafia team than Aquanim.
I distinctly recall him making a case on me after the lynch. He chose to pursue you as his primary target, but he still has me on his scum list. I don't see how partially changing his mind makes Onegu scum. In fact, flexibility in changing one's reads as you get more information about your targets is a clear town sign. + Show Spoiler +Point #4: Onegu declared his apathy to both the Xzavier and Aquanim lynches shortly thereafter with no developments other than his case for Alakaslam. Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 02:19 Onegu wrote:On June 26 2013 02:01 FirmTofu wrote:
Even now, it is still possible that Xzavier lives because we only have 5 votes. We should try convincing hzflank or Alakaslam to switch their votes.
As I suspect the Mafia team is as follows...
Xzavier
SpicyDinosaur
Onegu
They are trying not to make it obvious that they want to keep Xzavier alive. You can see how they are frantically looking for other scapegoats to shift attention off of Xzavier, but don't have much of a case.
Furthermore, my preliminary assessment of Alakaslam speaks to an SK mindset. I will go into further detail when it becomes applicable on Day 2. To be honest I dont care who is killed if Xzavier flips town my vote will go on aquanim and if he flips scum I will vote Spicydinosaur. My current read on Xzavier is null with scum reads on alakaslam and aqua. With every post Alakaslam makes he looks more and more like noob scum to me. Note: He reiterates that if Xzavier flips town, Onegu's vote will go to Aquanim. This is further evidence for Point #2 and is also indicative that Onegu still has not shifted his suspicions onto me. He says he has scum reads on Alakaslam and Aqua, but doesn't vote for Aqua who was the only one likely to be lynched that day. The scum reasoning behind this is that he doesn't want to be suspected post lynch(Point #2). A townie would be willing to push their second best scum read(Aquanim) if he was the only scum read that was even on the table. Only scum would try and pretend as though Alakaslam was a viable option. Elaboration on why apathy is a problem: Onegu's apathy towards the lynch on day 1 is a clear scum tell. An honest townie, in his position, would never have switched from voting Aquanim to voting Alakaslam. Even if the townie thought Aquanim was a sub-optimal lynch, he would have been willing to pursue it was the lynch that was even remotely likely to go through that he agreed with. However, scum Onegu was obviously apathetic about the lynch because he knew that, no matter what, a townie would die. Therefore, to clear himself of blame, he quickly got off the wagon he was currently on and allowed the other wagon to take precedence. This way, no one could accuse him of being the reason for getting a townie killed. It was a brilliant move, until of course, he was honest about his true intentions. This is a plausible reason why a scum Onegu would do this. However, there is a reasonable town explanation, and it's quite simple. Onegu thought that Alakaslam was more likely to flip scum than either myself or Xzavier. I admit that Onegu did not raise hell to convince other players to switch to Alakaslam. However, he did in fact make a case on Alakaslam, so it's not like he didn't apply any effort at all to convincing us. This raises the question of "Could Onegu have reasonably believed that Alakaslam was more likely to be scum?". I believe the answer to this question is yes. His case on Alakaslam is basically "Alakaslam has posted nothing of worth when there was plenty of worth that could have been said", which is pretty much all you can actually say about Alakaslam. This is a pretty decent reason for thinking Alakaslam was scum, as opposed to his case on me (which never made any sense). Actually saying that "I don't care who is killed" is a pretty impressive slip of the tongue. However, I don't think it's entirely implausible that a town Onegu could be largely apathetic as to which of his null-to-scum reads is lynched, given that he doesn't think his main read Alakaslam is going to get lynched. He tried to convince the thread to lynch his main suspect, Alakaslam - when that failed, he was justifiably not hugely invested in the lynch. Towards the end of the day, the Xzavier wagon was clearly leading. (In fact, the only two votes on me at the end IIRC were Xzavier himself and StiMaDDict.) Jumping on my wagon again would have been absolutely futile, and since he didn't think that Xzavier was scum obviously he wouldn't jump on that one either. Staying on Alakaslam was a REASONABLE thing for a townie to do in Onegu's position. Sure, it would have been better to argue even more for an Alakaslam lynch, but not everybody has the backbone to stare down the rest of the thread over a read nobody else shares. + Show Spoiler +
Point #5: Onegu's entire case against me is a scummy OMGUS that only serves to maim my authority and credibility. The only thing that happened right after post-lynch was that Chromatically and I drafted up separate cases against Onegu. Nothing else changed. There was absolutely no reason for Onegu to change his scum read of Aquanim to suddenly attack me. Here is his case for reference. + Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 20:58 Onegu wrote:Going to make a case on FirmTofu also as looking over his filter looks scummy also. Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:Scum Hunt Day 1:On June 24 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
hey guys Analysis: Trying to appear friendly with an innocuous greeting. Seems to project an air of insecurity. Preliminary Conclusion: Scum On June 24 2013 11:01 StiMaDDict wrote:
so it begins.. Analysis: Neutral statement of fact. Preliminary Conclusion: Need more information. On June 24 2013 11:02 Spicydinosaur wrote:
Hey everyone Analysis: Exudes power with strong capitalization techniques along with a greeting. Preliminary Conclusion: A leader with a powerful role. On June 24 2013 11:03 Xzavier wrote:
Spicy <3 hello again. Analysis: Trying to establish a connection with a player that he has interacted with prior to this game. A metagaming, manipulative sort of move. Preliminary Conclusion: Scummy On June 24 2013 11:04 Chromatically wrote:
Why so scummy, Spicy? Analysis: First baseless accusation. As the old chinese proverb states, "He who smelt it, dealt it." Preliminary Conclusion: Scum Suggested Lynch: Chromatically His first post is nothing, it doesnt promote a good town atmosphere nor does it get anyone to defend themself as the cases are just BS. Show nested quote +As an aside, I would prefer if the accusations remained within the confines of this game and this game only. That is to say, judging people on the differences between their past games and this one is a rather boring way to play the game. Again this is jsut posting about a discussion we were haveing and posting something on it but not actually giving a good reason. Sorry it is boring is not a legitimate reason to do or not do something in mafia. As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Show nested quote +As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Such a wierd choice on who to vote but more on this in a moment. Show nested quote +It wasn't pure spam, and I certainly hoped it would generate discussion. I knew I could not really say anything of substance at that point, so I decided to do something fun that would get people talking. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. When you look at this post and contrast it to some first few posts, you can clearly see that singling me out as a target is rather silly.
But it was pure spam, when you say it was something fun that means it is spam. Show nested quote +Just because Stim seems scummier than fyfy doesn't mean fyfy shouldn't be voted. I wanted fyfy to talk and I wanted to draw attention to him. That was the reason for my vote. Nothing more, nothing less. We can address Stim now that I am awake. But why try to get someone who hasnt talked at all to try to talk? Someone who you know has posted and is most likely to post again is a much better choice to pressure, unless of course you dont want them to have to talk more... Show nested quote +I almost agree with everything you said. The problem arises when you realize that the case you've made for aqua is a hell of a lot stronger than the case you've made for Chromatically. Is this something you have overlooked? Or are you deliberately weaving a story to pit town against one another? For the time being, it's hard to tell one way or the other, but I did enjoy reading. So you agree with almost everything? Show nested quote +Regardless, I see your story as a plausible conspiracy theory, at best. Acting upon it without further evidence is dangerous. Most of your post relies on speculation about the player's true motives. Show nested quote +I agreed with it in the sense that it was a plausible theory, not that it was particularly likely. For the record I have you both pegged as town and I think you are both wasting precious time accusing one another. His conspiracy idea arose mainly because you accused him of being scum. I see his post as a long-winded retaliation against your credibility to ensure that no one bandwagons him to oblivion. You agree with almost everything but its just plausable and you have town reads on both of them. What a quick backpeddle there, why so fast? Show nested quote +3) You defended fyfy while accusing me of not voting for Stim instead of fyfy. There was no reason to say that when both were perfectly good lurker targets that were largely interchangeable. But there was a big differance and in no way were they interchangeable as all you have to do is look at the ammount of posts they have had. Show nested quote +3) My point is your reason is stupid. What difference does one line of posting make? Seriously? Accusing me of being scum based on one line that someone else wrote? It makes a HUGE difference that one line means you know someone has posted and more likely to post again, while you do not know if the other will post or not. Show nested quote +2) For fyfy, I still hold that there is no difference between the lurkers and you claimed that there is a difference. I think your reasons for claiming that there is a difference are stupid and make no sense because only one line separated one from the other. Why do you continue to defend fyfy? It's quite intriguing. Why do you keep on there is no difference when there is one and spicy wasnt the only one to point it out, with fyfy fliping green this becomes much more relevant. Show nested quote +I would remind everyone of the voting rules.Voting rules:Voting is done in this thread. You cannot PM me your vote.Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion may not be counted. Vote counts will be updated whenever intermittently.No conditional voting.You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses).You may vote for a No Lynch in the format: ##Vote: No LynchVoting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.If you do not think Chromatically is scum, then please vote either 1) No lynch or 2) Someone else.In the event of a tie, the person who gets voted up first, dies.
Why post this all it is is fluff and takes up space. Show nested quote +Sounds great! Could you consider looking through Xzavier's filter and reading Chromatically's case against Xzavier and consider voting for him? I would be willing to take you off my scum list if you would do that. So you are happy at first with my statement what changed? Show nested quote +I concur. The Xzavier lynch didn't actually have the highest chance of flipping scum for me; however, it definitely provided invaluable information that we can use throughout the game. I'm glad to see we agree. So you blast me for saying I have a better read on alakaslam but not voteing him then when I do vote him I am scum, but you didnt think the xzavier lynch didnt have the highest chance to flip scum? And me saying before the lynch I am ok with either lynch because the xzavier lynch gives town the most information, but when you say the same thing after the lynch that is perfectly ok? REALLY? Show nested quote +I disagree. vigi should shoot the target most likely to flip scum, and that is most definitely Onegu at this point.P.S. I wouldn't mind Spicy either *wink wink* Directing blue roles is bad and wrong dont do it. Show nested quote +So Alakaslam, if you want to clear yourself in my eyes, you are going to have to vote Onegu. That is the only way I can know for sure that you guys aren't on the same team. If he flips town(which is extremely unlikely), you are cleared of all blame.If he flips scum, you will be scrutinized, but I will take some time to reconsider because you did vote for him.Voting for Onegu is a win-win situation for you if you are town. The only reason you wouldn't vote him would be if you are scum.The ball is in your court.
This is bullying you say if you dont vote how I want you to then you are scum and I will come after you also. Show nested quote +Bullying? I don't see how this is bullying at all. I'm giving him a choice that he can choose to accept or not and I letting him know the consequences of his decision. If he doesnt make the choice you want him to then there will be consequences is the definition of bullying. Show nested quote +Also, Onegu isn't being pro-town by calling me scummy. He's being anti-town. Almost all of town agrees that I have been one of the most pro-town players this entire game. Where are these people and I would ask them to look at your filter again and go ahead and say you are one of the most pro-town people in this game. You have tunneled spicy, xzavier and me and havent done much else other than bully alakaslam andmpost fluff. And when Xzavier flips town you say you didnt even expect him to flip scum. Nearly all of his points refer to supposed "scum-tells" that occurred pre-lynch. If he thought those were scum-tells, why didn't he bother to bring it up when it actually mattered? Why did he conveniently start to think I was scummy RIGHT AFTER I accused him? The only explanation for this sort of behavior is that he doesn't actually think I am scummy, he is just looking for reasons to convince others to think I am scummy so no one will vote him.Are you seriously trying to tell me that there is something scummy about rereading day 1, with the retrospective knowledge of who got lynched, and drawing new conclusions based on that? I guess that makes me scum then... and you... and everybody else in this game (with the possible exception of StiMaDDict). I'd also like to tell a little story here. Imagine you are a townie named Q, making scumreads and generally playing the game. Suddenly one of your scumreads says to someone else: "Vote Q or I'll assume that you're both scum and lynch you!". What is your reaction to that going to be? While I personally don't think that that statement makes FirmTofu scum (if only because it would be way, way too stupid) I'm not even suprised that Onegu went apeshit over it. I probably would have, in his position. Summary: It's a nice little case FirmTofu has built up here, I believe that he believes it, and I think he's townier as a result... but he's wrong. None of this makes Onegu scum, and a fair bit of it in fact makes me think that Onegu is town. Why Onegu is townHe's looking for scum. No, really... In this game, Onegu is suspicious of a lot of people, I might even say paranoid. Most of his posts are talking directly about why another player is scum. Staying on-point with this approach to the game strongly indicates to me that his goal in the game is in fact to find scum. + Show Spoiler [meta] +
In the last game, where he was scum, Onegu was MUCH less direct about his suspicions and his posts generally contained a lot more fluff.
In my view his suspicions this game have been both consistent and flexible, both marks of a town-y thought process directing them. Consistent in that he hasn't suddenly changed his mind about anything without justifying it, and Flexible in that he has in fact changed his mind when new evidence presents itself. Looking at a player's overall attitude to the game is in my mind a far more reliable approach than focusing on individual scummy things they did. (Learned through painful past experience of mislynching townies who made dire mistakes.) I don't really agree with you on a lot of points, but I can't see you deriving this up as scum. Thanks for all the input. The problem remains that no matter what, Onegu still has the best case against him by any player. Unless you have a stronger scum read and you can make a case for his lynch, you may have to lynch sub optimally. Consider the situation where you are wrong about Onegu. Scum will likely bandwagon whoever you choose to lynch as long as it isn't one of their teammates because they want to save Onegu. Be watchful of any bandwagons that form conveniently quickly on your scum reads. Also, I hope you have drafted a potential mafia team of 3 people . If Onegu isn't mafia, which 3 people are most likely to be on a team together? Are their voting patterns today indicative of their partnership?
Tofu, you've made your opinion on Onegu clearer than clear twenty times over. I think a more productive use of your time at this point would be examining your secondary reads in the event we need your input on some of the other 7 people in the Town. Specifically, I want to hear who you think is scummy INDEPENDANT of your Onegu read.
If your secondary reads are based on your Onegu read, I'm going to be very sad, but I understand. We have some time left today for real discovery and discussion though, and your thoughts on secondary scum reads would be very helpful for me at this point.
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EBWOP: Ninja'd by spicy. Hardcore.
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