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Let's play a game... |
Ppl like McCoy and msmith1, whilst certainly capable of making validated and correct decisions. still require individuals to go back and forth with them and Challenge them. This process improves critical thinking on all levels.
I'm very glad you say this, cause it's something I suffered from a lot during this day, despite hitting scum D1 I can misread people as well.
We don't need sheep, we need discussion. Especially from guys like HW and H3. We currently have no way of knowing what these guys are just cause of their attitude. Sure, H3 did some stuff that induced some of us to give him a townread early, but the longer the game goes on, the more doubts grow, and old reasoning tends to be forgotten, even if it was valid. I've seen towns lose at LYLO cause they dwelled on the last pages instead of going back and simply reading past posts.
Currently I'm not sure at all who to lynch, as I wasn't before this lynch. What I hate mostly is that we could have given JP the opportunity to prove himself like suggested by many of us, but the two dudes doing jack shit didn't speak up when their votes would have mattered.
Maybe we should simply play the part of the vigi during the next days and make sure we rip out these weeds, Eccleston included if he survives the mod, that will only leave readable people at LYLO and that at least implies that the surviving townies can put their skill at use and not go for shots in the dark.
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I can work with that plan. Its safe play and also prevents "grush" syndrome
I know your focus appears entrenched between eccle and tomb4.
May I ask for a stance on PT2000.
I.e. on the radar?
And
How much lenience to give to begin contributing meaningfully.
Why?
His spiel on baker day2 rubbed me the wrong way.
Whilst we both raised baker as an item of discussion, I felt the motivations were completely different.
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United States22154 Posts
On June 04 2013 11:02 MSmith1 wrote:
Is Eccleston getting modkilled?
He will be under new management in the next 24 hours
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TD, you think i'm a sycophant?
if you think that, I think you need to l2dictionary
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Now.
Rereading JP medic reveal.
I'm kicking myself. It is so damn blunt and authentic. That's the love/hate relationship of hindsight I guess.
Bakers response essentially was to belittle his scum target, however the current evidence stacked against him points to immature town.
Tomb4 response was interesting.. But I think it is best he focuses on replying to McCoy observations.
Of suspicion to me is mcgann.
Now for context.
I replaced in and didn't read op.
Thus, when I was talking about it doesn't make sense to withhold shots, I was referencing standard Mafia dynamics.
If I understood the kp rules of withholding, I would most certainly advocate that path as scum. I.e. a 180 flip in thought.
Now mcgann says he agrees that It makes no sense to withhold. So let's continue to push JP the "fake" medic.
What is interesting is later he discusses the kp benefits of withholding, hence he was always aware.
I want an explanation why mcgann thought it was outlandish for scum to withhold kp.. Effectively pushing the JP medic lynch
Gents. Note this is exacerbated by subsequent posts where he creates logic scenarios and then admits they are wrong. U need to decide whether genuine or part of the acting routine.
I hope this becomes an item we can all discuss.
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United States22154 Posts
Eccleston is under new management
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On June 04 2013 13:10 Hurndall3 wrote:
TD, you think i'm a sycophant?
if you think that, I think you need to l2dictionary
Do u think I am town?
If so, why do u care what I think.
I suggest instead of throwing around cheap insults, that you seek avenues that indeed lead to the discovery of scum.
Surely you must realise there is a high propensity for msmith1 and smccoy to be shot tonight. We need as much POSITIVE discussion to place town in good stead come day3.
I think this game is solvable H3. We just need to work together.
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Took a look at H3 and HW.
They never mention each other. Except for this occasion where H3 is reminded that HW exists.
On June 02 2013 05:18 Hurndall3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2013 05:10 SMcCoy wrote:On June 02 2013 04:59 Hurndall3 wrote:
lol why are people still bitching about an easy d1wagon if we caught scum?
I think tom is really town. He has written so much and gone really in depth about his thought process.
Scum is between pt, pf, ec, td.
Don't shoot pt (thats the rper right?) cause he prob gonna get modkilled. Who's pf? What do you think about JP and Hartnell? Yesterday you gave JP a 53 % chance of him being scum, it should now be around 99 %. by pf i meant JP LOL. Add hartnell to the list of possible scum also. I forgot about him.
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May I ask for a stance on PT2000.
I.e. on the radar?
Yeah, on the radar. He's acting too insecurely for my taste¸ as if he never catched up. He does contribute thoughts that look free-flowing, but they also give me the impression as if he's summarizing random stuff he sees while going through the game. I miss a certain directionality in his posts.
He also promised a JP read at some point but preferred to do his thing with the freeflow posts.
It's in the pipeline.
Didn't see it come out.I saw this:
On June 04 2013 09:50 PTroughton2 wrote:
Are we at majority with the 6 votes from the last vote count? I'm not 100% sure because math, but I will switch to ensure a lynch. Still would prefer Hartnell if enough show up to make that happen.
The JP claim feels like a reconciliation from him for not being able to be around today due to RL or whatever, and while making RL excuses in mafia is frowned upon, it's simply a fact that it happens.
To make sure we get a lynch.
##unvote
##vote JPertwee
This "To make sure we get a lynch" kinda troubles me, too. He promised a JP read.
Most important point imo:
Like, imagine you're troughton and you KNOW you're town, you read through the game, and you see that there's two guys pushing you while others go for a scum. By knowledge of your own alignment, you should already be suspicious of Tom and JP, but instead of getting to read them first, you read all sorts of other shit, providing thoughts on the go without voicing only those you find most suspicious.
What trout was doing looks unnatural and does not really display a townie thought process. More like he's skimming through posts and providing some inconclusive comments on the go to look like he's doing something.
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On June 04 2013 13:23 TheDavison wrote:
I want an explanation why mcgann thought it was outlandish for scum to withhold kp.. Effectively pushing the JP medic lynch
You want an explanation? Try reading my damn filter:
On June 04 2013 08:47 A McGann wrote:
Well, No.
The choices are: Scum withheld, Scum shot at MSmith.
IF Scum withheld, then JP is lying. If scum shot at MSmith, he would not know of this, and JP is telling the truth.
I also find it unlikely that they withheld with the number of townies that were confirming eachother and grouping up into a block.
I did not push this lynch and you are misrepresenting if you try to sell it that way. I was not interested in this lynch in the beginning of the day, and I was one of the loudest about swapping off of the lynch at the end.
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Hi Im the new manager for Eccleston. Im not caught up on the thread but I'm working on it. If I read Oatsmasters most recent post correctly it is Night 3, 2 hours in. If people have questions for me about my previous actions I can do my best to explain but my guess is as good as yours. Since its Night Im going to spend catch up time and then write some reads down before end.
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On June 04 2013 13:37 Eccleston wrote:
Hi Im the new manager for Eccleston. Im not caught up on the thread but I'm working on it. If I read Oatsmasters most recent post correctly it is Night 3, 2 hours in. If people have questions for me about my previous actions I can do my best to explain but my guess is as good as yours. Since its Night Im going to spend catch up time and then write some reads down before end.
What's your alignment bro.
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Mr Mcgann.
I saw that response and agreed with it when I thought we were playing normal Mafia kp withhold.
I know now, we are not playing standard rules. So yes, I still take issue.
Take it as a sign of respect - as hard as it is to swallow.
Throughout this game you have displayed snippets of wisdom. Hence I can only feel grave disappointment reading comments such as the one we are discussing.
I shall raise two more points.
1, I'm trying to put you in the limelight.
I imagine you as town, would be someone who thrived and utilised the moment to prove without doubt your innocence.
I'm not getting that from you...
2.
Aren't u the one advocating eccleston innocence?
What is your plan of "attack" with eccleston 2.0
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On June 04 2013 13:38 SMcCoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 13:37 Eccleston wrote:
Hi Im the new manager for Eccleston. Im not caught up on the thread but I'm working on it. If I read Oatsmasters most recent post correctly it is Night 3, 2 hours in. If people have questions for me about my previous actions I can do my best to explain but my guess is as good as yours. Since its Night Im going to spend catch up time and then write some reads down before end. What's your alignment bro.
I win with the town but Im not telling you whether or not I have a blue role ^^;; so that the scum dont know who to shoot tonight.
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On June 04 2013 13:45 TheDavison wrote:
Mr Mcgann.
I saw that response and agreed with it when I thought we were playing normal Mafia kp withhold.
I know now, we are not playing standard rules. So yes, I still take issue.
Take it as a sign of respect - as hard as it is to swallow.
Throughout this game you have displayed snippets of wisdom. Hence I can only feel grave disappointment reading comments such as the one we are discussing.
I shall raise two more points.
1, I'm trying to put you in the limelight.
I imagine you as town, would be someone who thrived and utilised the moment to prove without doubt your innocence.
I'm not getting that from you...
2.
Aren't u the one advocating eccleston innocence?
What is your plan of "attack" with eccleston 2.0
1) If you cannot get a grasp on my innocence from the last 25 pages, then just give up and quit. The fact that this game has been made infinitely harder by half a dozen townies doing jack-squat all is god damn INFURIATING, especially when they come in after the lynch saying "At least I didn't lynch the medic HURRRRRRR".
2) What kind of a question is this? If I was advocating his innocence before the replacement, why would that change as soon as he replaces out? It wont and hasn't. I think he's more than likely town and until he gives me a reason to think otherwise, he can stay that way.
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I'm doing a general reread with the two flips in mind.
Any thoughts on this early interaction?
On May 29 2013 23:01 Hurndall3 wrote:
yup mccoys post is scummy as fuck.
until he makes himself seem more town:
##vote smccoy
On May 29 2013 23:03 DrTennant wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:01 Hurndall3 wrote:
yup mccoys post is scummy as fuck.
until he makes himself seem more town:
##vote smccoy anything else you would like to add?
On May 29 2013 23:05 Hurndall3 wrote:
Yeah why is everyone talking all fancy and not natural? just because its a smurf game lol?
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Firstly, apologies for the massive post about to follow.
It started off as a retort, and developed into a case. Thats what happens when site maintenance kicks in for 1 hour. 
+ Show Spoiler [To A.McGann] +On June 04 2013 13:56 A McGann wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2013 13:45 TheDavison wrote:
Mr Mcgann.
I saw that response and agreed with it when I thought we were playing normal Mafia kp withhold.
I know now, we are not playing standard rules. So yes, I still take issue.
Take it as a sign of respect - as hard as it is to swallow.
Throughout this game you have displayed snippets of wisdom. Hence I can only feel grave disappointment reading comments such as the one we are discussing.
I shall raise two more points.
1, I'm trying to put you in the limelight.
I imagine you as town, would be someone who thrived and utilised the moment to prove without doubt your innocence.
I'm not getting that from you...
2.
Aren't u the one advocating eccleston innocence?
What is your plan of "attack" with eccleston 2.0 1) If you cannot get a grasp on my innocence from the last 25 pages, then just give up and quit. The fact that this game has been made infinitely harder by half a dozen townies doing jack-squat all is god damn INFURIATING, especially when they come in after the lynch saying "At least I didn't lynch the medic HURRRRRRR". 2) What kind of a question is this? If I was advocating his innocence before the replacement, why would that change as soon as he replaces out? It wont and hasn't. I think he's more than likely town and until he gives me a reason to think otherwise, he can stay that way. McGann, I think you have done a superb job separating yourself from the chaff in this limited person game. However, I do not think for one second that you have established innocence to the degree you expressed when suggesting I quit. Considering the below - even you appear to acknowledge this thread sentiment. On June 04 2013 01:46 A McGann wrote:
Confirmed isn't a sliding scale, its binary. Yes or no.
We're all no, as far as I know.
But people like yourself, McCoy and Smith get to go in the "Super, duper unlikely scum, most probably town, ill take everything they say at face value" bracket. Now. I hope we can put our differences aside and work together constructively. I think you have great ideas, so, if you think the below is worthwhile I look forward to your constructive opinion.
+ Show Spoiler [True Agenda] +When discussing the witholding kp "dilemma" I was actually staging the conversation to be a mechanism to discuss the "withheld kp" with the masses. I was hoping you would play along - but hey, sometimes we have to roll with the punches.
To me, the benefit of witholding KP is (with no godfather/strongarm):
(1) Fake claim medic or vet or JK
(2) Fake target a person (assuming medic /JK is in the game) to setup a kill next cycle.
(3) Target someone likely to be protected by double stacking
(4) Blitzkrieg -> Rapidly take out town leaders/threats to destablise town.
(5) Improve odds of a fatality -> i.e. hope town medic + JK target the same person. 1 of your KP hits the unprotected.
(6) Promote "waste of time" discussions like this =)
Perhaps there are other scenarios, it is up to you to decide whether they are important to include; and make my conclusion obsolete.
If the godfather/strongarm is in the game
Points (1) and (2) and (4) and (5) and (6) apply. (3) Is covered by the strongarm, who can only shoot once, but is worth 2kp.
If we evaluate those scenarios
(1) *HAD* slim potential. Now that a medic has been killed, it is unlikely for a fake JK/vet claim to occur. It is too easy to counter.
(2) I dont think the return is worth the investment. This is generally frowned upon by good players anyways.
(3) Again, i dont think the return is worth the investment. Also generally frowned upon.
(4) This is certainly worth while *IF* town is on the wrong path.
(5) Also worthwhile. Its a a safe way to mitigate protective roles and 1KP.
(6) Its possible. But requires in my opinion a myopic scum. Considering GM entry requirements, I would like to assume this is unlikely.
Henceforth, the evaluations above indicate that the scum objectives are best satisfied by enabling the double KP to execute either (4) or (5); with one caveat. That is, the benefit is best gained when the blue roles are unknown as it is there to mitigate that uncertainty.
Now of course, we are already thinking the town leaders are likely to be shot. This is merely reinventing the wheel, right?
+ Show Spoiler [The Point] +
So Why is this important?
Because scum were down 1 person after Day 1.
Playing the game to execute scenario (4) and (5) indicate a confidence to finish off the game in a strategical manner. Or more specifically, they are not playing in survival mode: i.e. trying to do anything it takes to take off pressure.
This is important to realise...During Night 1, Scum were very likely: not threatened
This establishes the following dichotomy:
(a) Scum have absolute balls of steel - a possibility that I expect a handful of TL players to be capable of.
or;
(b) Scum did not feel pressured, as they have either camouflaged as town; OR, are not viewed as a major threat.
Keep in mind, the decision to boycott KP was made Night 1, so you have to look back into the game with the thread sentiment of Night 1.
+ Show Spoiler [In Action] +If we examine the final votes for both Days. On June 01 2013 11:30 Oatsmaster wrote:
Day 1
SMcCoy (0): Hurndall3.
TheDavison (0): Hurndall3.
DrTennant (8): SMcCoy, Baker1986, MSmith1, HartnellWil, A McGann, Eccleston, Hurndall3, TomB4
Hurndall3 (1): PTroughton2, TheDavison
PTroughton2 (2): TomB4, JPertwee, DrTennant, Hurndall3
TomB4 (1): TheDavison
On June 04 2013 10:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
Day2
jpertwee (7): baker1986, smccoy, msmith1, tomb4, a mcgann, thedavison, PTroughton2, thedavison
thedavison (1): a mcgann, hartnellwill, jpertwee, hurndall3
eccleston (2): hartnellwill, jpertwee
hartnellwill (0): PTroughton2
tomb4 (1): thedavison
Someone who stands out to me as a contender to satisfy that dichotomy is: Hurndall3.On Day1, VCA indicates he has thrown his vote around randomly seeing where it sticks. In fact the vote justifications below are sycophantic at best and outright scummy at worst. Pay particular attention to the over compensation with his Dr.T sheep vote//bus. + Show Spoiler [H3 justifications] +On May 29 2013 23:01 Hurndall3 wrote:
yup mccoys post is scummy as fuck.
until he makes himself seem more town:
##vote smccoy On May 30 2013 03:17 Hurndall3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:11 TheDavison wrote:
I'd like to bring attention to H3's posting, in reading and rereading the thread I found him less than useless. He has a fair number of posts and has been involved in discussion without adding anything to said discussion.
He blatantly sheeped an early case without adding anything to it and unvoted as soon as the casee responded. Since that moment he has been complaining about the difficulty of reading an all smurf game, which is the reason I've read the thread more than once, and hasn't added anything to the progression of day one discussion.
For now I find H3 the scummiest player in the thread and shall, therefore, vote for him. I ask each of you to either vote with me and tell me why yo agree with me or, if you are not voting with me, tell me why you disagree.
Vote:Hurndall ok
##vote thedavisonpretty self explanatory imo. This is his first post! On May 31 2013 00:06 Hurndall3 wrote:
the bandwagon of justice rolling through.. it is so beautiful
##vote ptroughton On May 31 2013 11:20 Hurndall3 wrote:
##unvote
##vote DrT
k I think I can sheep this DrT shit now that I read the case thoroughly.
these are the points that convinced me to sheep.
1 DrT's overdefense
2 unnatural calmness
3 repeated appeal that scum is among the inactives
4 one dimensional scumreads On June 03 2013 05:09 Hurndall3 wrote:
##vote td
jp is looking town from that last post. going with the alternate wagon. Besides I thought td looked scummy from his first post. On June 04 2013 11:10 Hurndall3 wrote:
fuck I guess my vote is really outdated.
##unvote
##vote JP
NOT THAT IT MATTERS Compare this to "TomB4" who was in the final two to seal Dr.T fate. On June 01 2013 07:36 TomB4 wrote:
I'd rather feel dumb than correct, since I am the minority in this case. It's better for us if I'm wrong.
##unvote
##vote DrTennant There is a stark contrast in confidence in the sheep vote.
H3; who never explained any of his D1 votes in gross detail, suddenly feels the need to provide a summary account when it comes to Dr.T. His Day1 performance sequence is repeated in full force on Day2, when he votes for Davison citing "JP looks town", before seizing an opportunity and rescinding back to JP - with no explanation. If i haphazard a guess, I would say with confidence: His actions with JP are a scum slip. (i.e. jumped into the thread without reading, and realised the error in judgement and recanted) Let me repeat it for you: On June 03 2013 05:09 Hurndall3 wrote:
##vote td
jp is looking town from that last post. going with the alternate wagon. Besides I thought td looked scummy from his first post. On June 04 2013 11:10 Hurndall3 wrote:
fuck I guess my vote is really outdated.
##unvote
##vote JP
NOT THAT IT MATTERS Please remember thread sentiment: barely anyone thought JP was town; or even if they had a "gut feeling". JP filter did NOT do not much to help them present a counter case. However, H3 suddenly knows it all. It doesnt matter that 1 day elapsed between the H3 backpedal. He backed the horse (JP) when no one else did (I would bet due to knowledge we dont have)... and when the opportunity came he took it and provided ZERO justification. Just like all his other votes except Dr.T. SMcCoy has already touched on some odd interactions with H3 and other(s) in the thread.
+ Show Spoiler [The Outcome] +
Guys, I am suggesting that regardless of who dies this cycle: please push forward and secure the lynch of H3.
(1) His voting of Dr.T is suspect
(2) His voting of JP is suspect
(3) His behaviour fits the pattern of scum who has blended into the "not a current thread" zone, thus satisfies the requirements of enabling the "withhold KP" ability.
(4) Has suspect behaviour with other participants.
Please discuss this.
I think this person I speak of in "The Outcome" satisifies all the criteria I have been looking for.
i.e.
Over Compensated votes on scum.
Low details when voting town.
& satisfies my "withhold kp" musings in the spoilers above.
Let me know your thoughts. If you think I am wrong. Point it out!
Construction discussion can only help lead us in the right direction!
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Yes, I apologize for my earlier tantrum, I was exceptionally pissed at myself mostly for realizing JP was possibly town and discounting it.
I like your reasoning, but to put forth the obvious question: What if they just shot at MSmith and JPertwee caught it? A large part of the analysis revolves around them feeling 'safe' or 'not in question', and therefore they felt like they could get away with it. But what if they weren't? I can imagine that it would have looked quite scary with Baker, McCoy, Msmith and myself all giving each other town reads and voting as a unit. If I were scum, I'd have wanted to start eliminating that quadrumvirate as soon as possible because getting any of us to vote into that group would be nigh-on-impossible.
All of the Night-KP discussion aside, I like where you're going with H3's overcompensation on his vote on DrT, even after claiming and even discounting the same case earlier in the day:
On May 30 2013 06:54 Hurndall3 wrote:
um ok SMcCoy I tried to read your last post several times. Maybe my attention span is bad but half way through (between megacases 1 and 2) I kept getting so bored that I lot my concentration and had to start over. I still have no idea what you are trying to say but the gist I got was it was COMPLETELY INCONCLUSIVE lol. It's all analysis and no insight.
On May 30 2013 14:15 Hurndall3 wrote:1 "uscumbro?" is null possibly leaning town. I know you don't like it because of how it effectively accomplishes nothing, but town does it all the time. 2 people are searching for something to talk about early game. This is true of both town and scum. DrTennant is not a scumread and I think there are already a bunch of better lynch candidates out there:
Eccleston
PTroughton2
JPertwee
Actually rereading all those filters I am gonna unvote TheDavison. His response to my OMGUS looks marginally genuine: Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:21 TheDavison wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That is indeed my first post, I have been absent from the thread until now. Upon reading the thread I found you scummy. Instead of doing anything to refute that you have instead reinforced my belief that you are an alien monster who must be purged by our security forces. ##unvote
JPertwee might be a too scummy to be scum scenario. He is overly agreeable, wishy washy, and constantly asking people to expand on things they've said rather than contribute his own original thought.
Also, note that last line throwing dirt at JPertwee. He doesn't revisit this again. Instead opting to jump onto the Ptrout lynch without even reading his posts/filter. When asked later who he wants to kill, he responds with:
On May 31 2013 04:54 Hurndall3 wrote:
ew wait trout only has 1 post?!
it kind of looks like he was trying to rp and got bored.
##unvote
I haven't made my mind up on an alternative yet.
@Baker it seems pretty weird that you are so UBER active yet you don't have a scumread you are pushing??
Look at the bolded line: Seemingly forgetting about JPertwee being too scum to be scum. He then jumps on DrT shortly after he achieves critical mass, 6 votes.
Too scummy to be scum only lasts so long H3, you better put in a better effort than yesterday.
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And MSmith, if they did shoot at you, they're probably coming back to finish off the job tonight now that you're exposed.
When you can bring yourself to come back to the thread, get everything you want to say out.
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EBWOP for two posts ago:
The last line before the first quote should read:
Even after claiming it was inconclusive.
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How could you do this to me McCoy, how could you not be 100% right all the time?
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
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EPT
