EPT[M][N] Les Mafia
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Blazinghand
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Va5seuM.png) | ||
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On May 18 2013 03:07 iamperfection wrote: alright im off to the gym you guys are boring me and bh is making me angry. back in a few hours how am i making you angry when you're the one shitting up the thread | ||
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Blazinghand
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flaming | ||
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On May 18 2013 03:31 marvellosity wrote: Looks like typical iamp aggression to me, wouldn't you say? nope | ||
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On May 18 2013 03:37 marvellosity wrote: Explain the difference then. I'm bored of how you're posting. ##Vote: BlazingHand i wouldn't say because i don't know his meta. he's posting like dick, i vote him, he ragequits thread. are you voting me because of other factors here or just cause you're mad or do you think i'm scum | ||
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Blazinghand
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On May 18 2013 03:39 marvellosity wrote: I think you're posting like a douchebag, and usually when you post like a douchebag (say, The Game) you're mafia, and when you give me warm fuzzy feelings you're town. Currently I'm feeling the douchebag washing over me. You've also played with iamperfection multiple times (just off the top of my head, Rock Band, and Themed Game) so your excuse about not knowing his meta is extraordinarily bad. None of this makes any sense. I always post like a douchebag, and if you're going to bring up The Game as an example of me posting like a douchebag as a supporting meta read, show me not doing this in games where i'm town etc etc like if it's something i literally always do you can't say "hey look BH did this in this one game" and claim it's a legit meta read of course you know all this don't you ##unvote ##vote marvellosity | ||
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On May 18 2013 03:46 marvellosity wrote: Normally you're pretty keen to use meta. Why don't you go check it out?  back later/tomorrow. i typically use meta to support pre-existing cases. in any case, you're scum, so no need to worry about iamp today | ||
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On May 18 2013 03:48 grush57 wrote: bh if you say something offensive enough marv will post again, trust me. nah, marv is too slow and dim-witted to respond to this post (get it?) | ||
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he is wrong. | ||
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On May 18 2013 05:39 VayneAuthority wrote: What info do we get based on gut feelings? oh thats right astrology readings. I will be sticking to my game of logic and not letting emotions get the best of me. If somebody scumslips day 1 I will be watching intently, but besides that im not gonna bandwagon some poor sap just because a "vet" deems him scum ##unvote ##vote VayneAuthority | ||
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On May 18 2013 05:59 VayneAuthority wrote: what do you suggest I do then oh great and mighty vet l0l? There's no fucking information to go off of. yeah lynch this guy | ||
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On May 18 2013 06:36 VayneAuthority wrote: I threw the game? The other townie came in and voted at the last second for me. Why the fuck would it have mattered? I made it to lylo because I played my part as town perfectly, suspicious enough to stay alive and not bad enough to get lynched. god is that really your idea of how town plays optimally :| ##unvote | ||
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On May 18 2013 07:15 VayneAuthority wrote: Also I dont want to lynch him because I hate lynching day one, accidentally bringing out a PR role is literally such a bad start that it can be almost impossible to recover from if its a strong role. Also take into account simple probability, whats the chances of us finding scum based on no real evidence? 25%. I would never take those chances would you? see how could you possibly lynch a guy who legitimately thinks this is an ok post to make? There's no heuristic that could possibly distinguish scum VA from town VA. everyone should unvote this guy | ||
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Blazinghand
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On May 18 2013 07:19 marvellosity wrote: My thoughts on what you've written; points 1 and 2 don't hold up. especially because lurking is a bad thing for maifa, and encouraging anyone to post can be pretty town motivated. point 3 could be valid though. the vote on stutters looks pretty weak. I can't see any good reason for s0lstice to want to kill stutters, it all looks a little contrived. Not sure what to make of it all, I don't get massively strong feelings about any of it either way. Yeah point 1 and 2 are grbage fwiw a bad vote isn't the same as a scum vote, it's about motivation, reasning, thought process | ||
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On May 18 2013 07:22 marvellosity wrote: then you play on a stupid site. because that means one mislynch means town loses, which is extraordinarily dumb. just like VA! | ||
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On May 18 2013 07:26 VayneAuthority wrote: Yes but my counterpoint is why get to mylo/lylo faster when we can always afford extra information? unless you are aware that prome usually shorthands the town of strong PR roles or likes to use 3rd parties or something. I see waht you're saying, but still disagree. Perhaps an example would suffice: Let's say that there's 4 VTs and 1 scum, who has 1 KP. Instead of lynching once and then being at LYLO (A), we could no-lynch twice and be at LYLO (B). In scenario A, all the VTs, and also the scum player, argue about who to lynch and the scum player is forced to make reads and take positions. He has to fake townreads and scumreads. He has to get involved. Even if a town player is lynched, you go into LYLO with a lot of staked out positions, reads, players, etc based on how the flip happened. In scenario B, both of the flips are determined by scum rather than town, so first off there's no chance of hitting scum with the first flip, and secondly, with no town-controlled flip to argue about, scum is not forced to stake out meaningful positions about scumreads and townreads. When there are multiple scum alive this is even more of a difference, since scum will be able to give up associative tells. That's why it's generlaly considered to be a successful strat to lynch every day except specifically at MYLO in TL games. | ||
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On May 18 2013 07:27 marvellosity wrote: Ok. btw people can semi-ignore me until tomorrow when I'm more sober, but my current thought is this: vayne is probably town because he's constantly answered me in a pretty consistent manner. this isn't a certain read, but meh, maybe we should be looking somewhere else today. he seems to be saying some really weird shit that he genuinely believes in without being scared of it. yes? I am ashamed to say I now have a townread on VA. I want ot lynch him so bad though. | ||
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On May 18 2013 07:58 marvellosity wrote: i'm basically out of this game, unless you guys vote for the troll. blackmail? bullshit? totally. that's how strongly i feel about it. his play here is total nonsense. :| | ||
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Blazinghand
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um no but you're super not relevant right now | ||
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Blazinghand
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I have two scumreads right now I want to look into. 2) JarJar. He's off the radar, not posting, active lurker. Don't like it. If he were straight up not posting, that's one thing. IT's another to come in and kinda waffle suspicion at someone then dip out. Not acceptable. 1) Stutters. His inconsistency on meta (link)( has been well-documented by GK. the really damning thing the thing that makes me think scum is this: On May 18 2013 06:00 Stutters695 wrote: Right now I could get behind a Vayne lynch. vayne how many games have you played (on TL and in general if you've played on other sites)? as things were leading into a potential VA lynch stutters basically tries to soft attack VA and deflect responsibility. I eventually realized that VA's BS was not alignment-indicative, but at the time it looked like i was gonna go HAM on VA. Stutters vulture-like opportunism here smacks of scum looking to get on an easy wagon. Stutters is scum, and I am voting him. So should you. ##unvote ##vote stutters695 | ||
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having read that, I now remember it! It didn't come to mind previously though. | ||
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On May 18 2013 08:35 marvellosity wrote: i'm voting for blazing. his stutters case is totally underwhelming. ##vote: blazinghand Which point don't you like in the stutters case? | ||
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On May 18 2013 08:34 marvellosity wrote: Like, seriously. We have 2 scenarios: 1) blazing makes a shitload of effort to look at iamp's meta, having played with iamp before 2) blazing makes no effort to look at iamp's meta, despite having played with iamp's meta before i'm liking the difference between 1 and 2 right now dude I legit forgot, and fwiw I just voted him because he was being a douchebag. Given that you literally just went through this same thing like minutes ago I don't see how you're not aware of this. Once you brought up his meta, i did unvote him you know | ||
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Blazinghand
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On May 18 2013 08:37 marvellosity wrote: blazing, i kinda feel ok about a Jarjar vote instead. how does that feel? if a stutters lynch isn't happening, jarjar is acceptable. that being said, I'd much prefer stutters. What do you think of his post about VA? Isn't that like a pretty scum-motivated move? | ||
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On May 18 2013 08:39 marvellosity wrote: Let's put it this way Blazing. Stutters is always a useless pile of shit. literally always. i've seen you in recent games say "if you can't support this case with meta, your case sucks". can you? if he's a kushm4sta, then my case on him isn't valid. I'll go dive some meta then. | ||
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On May 18 2013 08:42 marvellosity wrote: I don't like this, Blazing. i'm not going to shout at you, because I don't feel it's... productive. I know you're "up" on the TL scene to know enough that Stutters is generally an extremely lurky mofo. he has played 10 town games or so and always been lurky/useless in all of them. I don't like how much you generally like meta and how little you're willing to look into Stutters' meta. Do you understand my concerns? no given that I just said I'll look into his meta what is it with people just expecting me to pull meta cases out of my ass constantly | ||
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and by "constantly" i mean "today" | ||
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On May 18 2013 08:45 iamperfection wrote: well it gives an impression that you half assing your cases which i would think would be more likely from a scum bh. yes, you're right, scum bh doesn't put a lot of effort into his cases, they are short and low effort, yes that is an accurate assessment of how bh plays as scum! you can definitely find games where he plays like that, and it's definitely not literally false, that idea no wait the opposite of that | ||
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##unvote ##vote jarjardrinks | ||
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On May 18 2013 08:50 marvellosity wrote: jarjar would. but so would others? grush hasn't given us starsenses. i'd kinda like to lynch him for that tbh. does he really claim town as towna nd not claim town as scum | ||
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wait, really 100%? >.> | ||
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On May 18 2013 17:39 yamato77 wrote: I don't feel like scum Marv would claim being drunk just to act like an idiot in the thread. he totally would | ||
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On May 18 2013 13:27 WaveofShadow wrote: Grush is town, if you vote him you're dumb, k. | ||
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Also, I will admit that my case on JJD isn't as strong as I'd like it to be, but for what it's worth he IS active lurking. Examining his filter, we see he has made 4 posts this game. Post one (link) is a bland hello post with some uninteresting information requests. On its own, not meaningful. Post two (link), a couple hours later, is a pointed/leading question with no followup asking grush about his read on sputnick. where is he leadking? Where are any reads or opinions? We never find out. Post three (link) comes telling us he's been reading the thread and promising more content and post four is his amazing followup 3 hours later (link) that basically says there's a lot of activity, he intends to sheep, and... he doesn't understand my change in stance on vayne? Like, I feel like the dude should have SOME opinions besides a question or a bland unmeaningful statement questioning the motives (but not saying anything) about my change of heart on VA. To clarify: at first, I thought VA's actions were completely unhelpful and antitown. After conversing with him a bit, I began to realize he actually seems to believe the crap he's talking about. I find it suspicious that you leave out this post (link), which I consider to be a pretty pivotal post in my interactions with VA. Although it comes after my unvote, it demonstrates a lot of my mindset about the guy: he simply doesn't get how the game works. When it comes down to it, JJD, for a guy who's been reading the thread and "following loosely"... three hours later, this deep into the day, you sure have nothing to say but vague, vague questions about a guy voting him, you sure seem uninterested in sharing your thoughts. You're definitely here, you're just choosing to lurk. This is what I mean by active lurking. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On May 18 2013 18:01 yamato77 wrote: It could be that grush is town and WoS is scum trying to gain towncred for "being right" about grush. although this is possible, it's not a super reasonable and useful thing to draw associative tells between unflipped players. this is why the important thing isn't who makes cases on who, but the mindset and reasoning behind said cases. Currently WoS's defense of grush is unsubstantiated, and because we can't see a town mindset from which this defense would arise, what this means associatively is not relevant until a flip has taken place. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On May 18 2013 18:11 yamato77 wrote: Well his mindset seems to be to use his townread of grush to make people look bad, no? Kinda fits with how I see his posting. It certainly doesn't look like scum WoS defending scum Grush. I don't view this as a productive way to think about it. I don't draw associative tells between unflipped players because I haven't seen it end well. Specifically regarding WoS: I could lynch WoS just for this post because of how far he is reaching. But my reads this game aren't as On May 18 2013 14:56 WaveofShadow wrote: Man I fucking hate you guys. Nothing but crazy activity when I can't be at my computer...sigh. Alright looking at GK atm. First one to jump up and defend VA. I'm not really sure what this amounts to; it certainly looked as though the VA wagon was getting rolling pretty fast and I think here was where it started getting turned around. VA's activity certainly did get better as the thread of lynch dropped off...suspiciously looks almost as though GK in scum QT to VA told him to calm the fuck down and do something useful or some shit while he helped get his neck out the noose? I dunno, #Wave'sconspiracytheories but I'm getting this shit out there. The grush vote is dumb, he waffles on stutters pretty quick but he shares my attitude regarding JJD: looks scummy but don't want to vote just yet. Looking at solstice's case on him: He picks up the waffling and gives it a little more weight than I do, clearly. I do like solstice's case but it doesn't feel like enough for me to change my vote atm. I'm leaning scum on GK as a result but not obvscum like sputnik is right now. The fact that he still hasn't returned and done anything makes me feel better about my vote choice the longer it goes on. Solstice: why do you feel better about voting GK than sputnik right now? this post is like bad and scummy in every way. Whatever you want to say about GK, the fact that he was the first person to question the VA wagon doesn't make him scum. | ||
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Perhaps, but if you would, this is also what you'd say! | ||
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At this point I prefer a WoS lynch to a JJD lynch. Although it's possible JJD is simply inactive, and will get better with time, my reasons for thinking of WoS as scum aren't something that will go away with him posting more. ##unvote ##vote WoS | ||
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On May 19 2013 11:19 Spicydinosaur wrote: I'm going to put my vote on WaveofShadow ##vote jarjardrinks | ||
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yes | ||
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if meta show how as synch else be real nice nine reasons frongusy | ||
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becuae basicpally imnaxrifen as scum. inactivity not a sxuktell sonui canst use it. I might say this more ree emebles stnr mafia where I was oxnde mislynxjd the n ANY SCUM Gasmasks I have played. youbguyrs are aeful | ||
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I act or else or metanisnall invalid | ||
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how long we foy before deepen | ||
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lol | ||
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 35@ meta * its just something you haveits just not the weight usage if the ward.bmera is no bes EV actions ofbwhatnuve preciously done. unless u done it before saying "I adopt thiseta; is meaningless | ||
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On May 19 2013 14:21 yamato77 wrote: BH/GK seem both like good lynches, IMO. If I had to pick, it would be BH, but neither inspires any real hope in me. how if I seem like fox b Lynch I not inspire hippie | ||
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##vote goodkarma | ||
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On May 20 2013 05:32 WaveofShadow wrote: Like is spicy actually liable to get lynched today based on this last minute pressure? unlikely. I'm not voting for him and neither is Marv, and we are this game's Power Couple | ||
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Blazinghand
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On May 20 2013 05:32 yamato77 wrote: No, it's also that he called a guy a scumread when in that very post, he was talking about him FLIPPING TOWN. In the post where he attacks jarjar and/or WoS he seems to be saying he expects ST to flip town, and doesn't call ST a scumread. On May 19 2013 11:19 Spicydinosaur wrote: I agree that Sputnik has posted absolutely nothing but garbage but I feel he should be shot by a vig and not lynched d1. I highly doubt his play is some grand scum plan that his scum buddies are comfortable with. Everyone could get behind a sputnik lynch because he's a shitty player. So if everyone agrees to lynch sputnik, what does that get us? More likely than not he'll show up as town, but everyone will have a solid defense for voting him. I'm going to put my vote on WaveofShadow His first few posts are complete spam. Then he sheeps on me about s0Lstice's meta game. A lot of his posts are full of self doubt and lack confidence. Jarjar on the other hand has posted some content, though very little. He's been the subject of attack a number of times but he has yet defended himself properly. Whether his in-activeness is due to RL or deliberate scum, I don't like it. I get the feeling he tried coasting D1 and got caught and really doesn't know what to do. His posts contain a lot of excuses which is scummy. I'm putting my vote on him. ##vote jarjardrinks emphasis mine | ||
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clearly this guy needs to be lynched. If not today, then sometime before LYLO. GK, unlike ST, often despite scummy starts gets his head in the game and does serious work starting like D2 or D3. I know that when I last said this, I was scum, but it's ALSO TRUE. I'm gonna back up my boy Marv on this one. ST is a liability and he must be lynched. ##unvote ##vote sputnik.theory | ||
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meaningless drivel. we lynch him | ||
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On May 20 2013 05:35 yamato77 wrote: You're not reading the thread, but that's fine. man i woke up like 15 minutes ago and am hung over as shit, sorry i missed whatever post. vote ST, he's a liability. | ||
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oh, sorry. Excellent work then! | ||
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On May 20 2013 05:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: They could be both scum, but GK fucking is scum. If someone puts a lot of "effort" to the game that does not mean he is town. You should lynch scum, not people who are bad/useless. I agree that sputnik is scummy, but he is just useless and i would expect more from GK at this point. i wouldn't expect more from GK this early. he takes time to spool up. | ||
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On May 20 2013 05:47 yamato77 wrote: If sputnik is town, he sure didn't try very hard to show us, did he? EVEN IF sputnik is town, we had to do this eventually anyways. Take a look at the man's filter. | ||
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On May 20 2013 05:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: What do you make of him posting basically nothing but shit that holds no water? nothing | ||
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On May 20 2013 05:58 VayneAuthority wrote: good point but this sputnik lynch is bullshit, its exactly what I said to watch out for earlier. A massive bandwagon at the last second. massive last second bandwagons are always good. shenannies for life | ||
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On May 20 2013 12:26 DarthPunk wrote: I would have preferred it if you had masoned someone the town agreed on to prevent shenanigans personally. Interesting, but not really relevant. There's no choice more optimal than Marv. We work well together, he's smart, he's active and is around all the time, and I have a townread on him. He may not be as townread-ey to me as you are, but I don't interact well with you and my time wouldn't be as well-spent. If you think there are shenanigans going on, and want to posit a Marv+BH scumteam, come at us bro | ||
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On May 20 2013 12:27 WaveofShadow wrote: Grits. While I agree with you that your statement is more likely, can you honestly tell me you've never attempted to rile up someone you believe to be scum, as town, knowing you and your play?  I definitely try to rile people up all the time. Although there are times and places to put people on tilt, putting Marv on tilt doesn't tell us a huge amount about his alignment and actually decreases his usefulness to town (as town) or reduces the amount of info we have to work off of regarding him (if he's scum). I don't see it as a good move unless you're sure he's scum and are trying to manipulate thread opinion to make him look bad and build a wagon up. Tldr although there is a time and place for it that was neither the time nor the place-- the move was antitown | ||
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On May 20 2013 12:32 DarthPunk wrote: I mean it is not impossible for you to be scum together is it. Regardless tomorrow night you can mason someone we pre determine if it comes to that. or I could just mason someone who I want to mason. get off my balls. by Night3 I'm confirmed town anyways, i'll just mason a different person each night | ||
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look the point is, if you've got a case to make against both me and marv, make it | ||
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Scumslips don't exist etc etc Well, I guess I'm not getting shot tonight any more. | ||
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On May 20 2013 12:40 WaveofShadow wrote: Explain it to me like I'm an idiot. How is what he said about Night 3 a scumslip? I assumed this game was a 3-scum game. If this were a 3-scum game, by night 3 I'll have masoned a 3rd person, it's no longer possible we're all scum together. The OP Does not state the number of scum, and for 16 players 4 would be more normal. DP assumes that I assumed 3 scum due to outside knowledge (ie being in the scum QT) and is attacking me based on that. | ||
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So for what it's worth, at least this definitely deflates the "marv and bh scum together, bh not actually a masoner" theory. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16895808 On November 14 2012 07:06 Blazinghand wrote: Scumslips don't exist. Townies "scumslip" as much as scum do. There are scum mindsets and scum ways of doing things, but revealing "extra info" or telling someone you're scum inadvertently happens equally to scum or town. It's self-serving of me to mention this, but it's also true. | ||
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On December 02 2012 08:25 Blazinghand wrote: Whatever, it's a wording thing. Scumslips don't exist. On December 03 2012 15:54 Blazinghand wrote: Also: scumslips don't exist. | ||
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On May 20 2013 12:51 DarthPunk wrote: I know scumslips are real, having made them myself and by catching mafia with them, and i can tell the difference between something a townie could make and scum could make. Furthermore a townie wouldn't work so fast in covering their tracks. I would expect a townie to be like WTF??!?!? in a similar way that WoS reacted to me calling you out. You reacted in the exact same way you said you did as scum in the post game for "the game?". When you say something scummy you try and immediately call it out yourself so as people can;t call you out for it. Obviously I am not going to convince you you are scum. So I am ending this discussion. I will talk to townies about this. No, you will continue to talk to me about it. your goal isn't to convince me, it's to present arguments that I can rebut or not rebut. This is the way you will shape your case to be the strongest, if I am scum, and it's the way my defense will become the strongest, if I'm town. You don't get to opt out of this discourse. You don't get to call me scum without reacting to my points. You won't convince anyone that way, and given that you must acknowledge at least the possibility that I'm town, you won't find the truth if it does turn out I'm town. Play right and debate with me. | ||
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It's also worth noting I have only ever "scumslipped" as a blue, and have done so previously also as a mason. I have never scumslipped as scum or as a VT. Could this be my first time? Sure. But I'm an extremely solid scum player, and my blue play-- especially in a game like this with a rough start-- has holes in it. I post quickly and without always reading everything, since I am fearless, whereas as scum I post carefully, even when I am spamming. | ||
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On May 20 2013 12:56 DarthPunk wrote: NO. The scumslip is this. I wanted BH to mason someone of the towns choosing so as to confirm he was a mason beyond all doubt. He then said he would be confirmed town after 3 nights because that would be the point that he was going to mason more people than were in his scum team implying extra knowledge of a scum team of 3. This is a slip because. He knows the size of the scum team. (3) The obvious scum team size assumption is 4 in a 16 player game. He then fucking tries to cover it up by saying this himself which he has just recently stated that is exactly how he deals with stuff that makes him look scummy in a recent postgame. Despite the fact that you have a very warped view of my play this past page and a half, yes, the alleged "scumslip" is that I assumed the size of the scumteam was 3 rather than 4. | ||
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On May 20 2013 13:08 s0Lstice wrote: Why would he then say that he would be confirmed town after X nights when he knows that we are all aware that this is a closed set-up with the possibility of any role in play...even scum masoner? The idea (and it is a bad idea) is that I forgot about that part, (and this is more believable than me forgetting it as town). | ||
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Like you gotta admit if you did this as town you'd feel that same way | ||
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On May 20 2013 13:17 DarthPunk wrote: nope. I would call you all fucking idiots because I didn't scumslip if I was town. or act confused like WoS was initially. OK but you gotta admit if I did this as town, this is how I'd act, and have historically acted. | ||
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On May 20 2013 13:22 s0Lstice wrote: Yea I get the leverage argument...but I'm saying there is no leverage to be had since we all have discussed the closed set-up. Rare or not, its in play, so the town has to consider it. Like, we already have talked about how the mason claim isn't alignment indicative. I suppose it makes sense though. It also proves BH hasn't been reading the thread. If he had been diving filters, he'd know there aren't just 12 players (and hence 3 scum as per normal), and that assumption would not have arisen. Assuming I'm town, it proves I haven't been reading the thread. If you think it's a legit scumslip, it says nothing about whether or not I'm reading the thread. | ||
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On May 20 2013 12:56 Blazinghand wrote: It is a valid point that I am a solid scum player and will point out my own errors to defuse the strength of them, by the way-- and I take this into advisement. But, on the other hand, there's another completely reasonable explanation for my post, which is that I'm town and I was like "oh, hey there could be 4 scum actually" and wrote that post. Does this mean the post is evidence that I'm town? not, but it's not evidence that I'm scum. It's also worth noting I have only ever "scumslipped" as a blue, and have done so previously also as a mason. I have never scumslipped as scum or as a VT. Could this be my first time? Sure. But I'm an extremely solid scum player, and my blue play-- especially in a game like this with a rough start-- has holes in it. I post quickly and without always reading everything, since I am fearless, whereas as scum I post carefully, even when I am spamming. DP, you've laid out a very convincing case for how scum blazinghand could make that post I made where I commented there could be 4 scum. I agree: scum Blazinghand could definitely write a post like that. Where i think you've fallen short is where you demonstrate that this isnt' something I do as town. I do this kind of "write something, then add some additional observation" thing, ALL THE TIME as town. So yes, the "BH is scum" narrative fits that post, but you have not demonstrated that the "BH is town narrative" does not. Therefore, although I don't consider that post a towntell, it is NOT a scumtell. I could, and do, write posts like that as both alignments, including after "scumslips" as town. And I think the fact that I scumslip often, revealing "scum only" information as town, and especially as Blue, is HIGHLY relevant to this conversation. | ||
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On May 20 2013 13:29 s0Lstice wrote: Yes it does. Scum BH would not have claimed to be confirmed town after 3 nights if he had been reading the thread. We are all factoring in the possibility of a scum mason. OK let me lay it out more clearly. Scum BH would have scumslipped to reveal there are only 3 scum, right? But Scum BH IS IN A QT WITH TWO OTHER PLAYERS. This means he has heard them speculate about the 3p menace (since a 3-man scumteam in a 16-player normal mini immediately is aware there is at least 1 SK) and specifically mention the game size. If I am scum, the fact that I posted this "slip" has nothing to do with whether or not I was reading the thread. Scum BH knows there is a 3p in the game (or really really super dooper strongly suspects it) since his partners were like "wtf why are we only 3 in this 16 man game. He KNOWS it's a 16-man game, because it was a relevant point of the initial discussions of the scum QT. If I'm town, yes, it means I haven't filter-dived. But IF YOU THINK THE SCUMSLIP IS LEGIT you have no reason to think I'm unaware of the game size, since, well, you think I'm scum. Not that any of this is relevant to proving that I'm town, but you're wrong and you need to be informed that you're wrong. | ||
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On May 20 2013 13:35 DarthPunk wrote: I have to admire blazinghand's method of diffusing the situation by being hyper aware of everything and explaining it for people. Doesn't stop him being scum. It is his default tactic for shit like this. This observation is true, but it's what I do as scum OR town. Although it's true it's not a towntell for me, my attempts to be helpful are not a scumtell either. | ||
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On May 20 2013 15:10 yamato77 wrote: I don't like you already. You make an apparent scumslip and act SCUMMY AS FUCK afterward. I think you should die. Seems easy enough. Ok, describe SPECIFICALLY which part of my actions are scummy, and why. If for no other reason to collect town cred when I flip red! I feel like I've debunked all of DP's points but I'd like to hear what someone other than him has to say | ||
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On May 20 2013 15:13 yamato77 wrote: DP is also correct in that you love to talk a shitton once you make a mistake as scum and try to cover it up. Not this time, pal. And what about the fact that I do this also as town? | ||
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look dude, i get it, you think i acted scummy after the "slip". could you please point out why and how? I'd like to at least try to convince you, and unless you're literally 100% sure I am scum it's worth it to at least explain your read. even if you are sure you might as well explain it so you don't look like bandwagoning scum, right? What's the point by point reasons? | ||
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On May 20 2013 15:19 Blazinghand wrote: look dude, i get it, you think i acted scummy after the "slip". could you please point out why and how? I'd like to at least try to convince you, and unless you're literally 100% sure I am scum it's worth it to at least explain your read. even if you are sure you might as well explain it so you don't look like bandwagoning scum, right? What's the point by point reasons? oh herp that was DP not yamato this is directed at yamato | ||
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On May 20 2013 15:21 yamato77 wrote: I agree with DP that this reaction is totally scummy and yet another slip of your mindset. You're so spammy as mafia that you just post random shit without thinking, and this sounds exactly how someone would react to that as scum. Why would a townie even act like it could potentially get him lynched if it is just an honest mistake? Well, because it could IN FACT potentially get me lynched. Despite my record, being town doesn't make me magically immune to getting mislynched. Recognizing that a slip, whether real or percieved, can get you lynched, isn't a scumtell. Perhaps I shouldn't have shared the thought and am too open with how I play, but that's just what I was thinking. I don't really have a bettere xplanation for this. On May 20 2013 15:21 yamato77 wrote: Why would a townie even assume there are three scum in the first place? Why is a townie assuming information not given to us? It's a mini, for whatever reason I assumed 3 scum, then realized there could be 4. On May 20 2013 15:21 yamato77 wrote: And why did you make the post about it saying something about Marv's alignment? Why would that be the case, and why are you making this post at all? Someone was saying (DP I think?) that not only could I potentially be a scum masoner, but a scum non-masoner, and was scum with marv. Or maybe they were just floating the idea. In a moment of wry humour, I thought "well at least this 'scumslip' has won me the argument, since everyone thinks I'm scum masoner now" and decided to share it with the thread. | ||
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On May 20 2013 15:23 yamato77 wrote: I've only ever played with scum BH, but I doubt you would do what you've done here as town. What specifically do you doubt I would do as town? scumslip? I can and have linked to specific games where I have done so (once even as a mason!) react coolly and with wry humor to a bad situation? what specifically? | ||
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On May 20 2013 15:58 DarthPunk wrote: Fucking what? WIFOM now. This is over. Burn him with the fury of a thousand suns. I'm just saying! You're definitely town. | ||
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On May 20 2013 15:58 DarthPunk wrote: Fucking what? WIFOM now. This is over. Burn him with the fury of a thousand suns. I'm not saying it's true! I'm just saying it would be awesome. Like for what it's worth, you have to admit that this would IN FACT be awesome! It's not true, but it would be so awesome. | ||
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On May 20 2013 16:51 yamato77 wrote: You're so... emotionless. The exclamation point and the whole "I'm being a helpful, friendly townie!" thing you've got going on is just too much. Maybe I'm conditioned to think of town as messy and egotistical, but I see literally nothing but flat logic from you, which amounts to nothing more than WIFOM. Honestly, believing that you just happened to assume there's 3 scum in a 16 player game with no information in the OP pointing at this possibility is wine that's insanely hard to drink, good sir. I like the wine that tastes like "BH is scum." So you have no rebuttal of all my points that have shot down your initial arguments, other than that the way I did so was "emotionless"-- and of course, the scumslip, which you believe to be real. | ||
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On May 20 2013 16:55 yamato77 wrote: I'm voting for you because I don't believe you. I already don't particularly want to believe you anyway, because the amount of effort you've put in to finding scum is pathetic, and then you make a slip like this. You have YOUR explanations for why you wrote what you did, but they seem much more easily and simply explained as"BH is scum and not colossally bad at this game." See, I think when it comes down to it, you don't actually want to lynch me because of what I said after my "scumslip". You wanted to lynch me all D1 and wrote lots of cases and put a lot of pressure on me. The scumslip itself fits into your preconcieved notion of how I always play as town (though this notion is not correct (link) (link)) so you see no reason to question it. You don't have specific things to say about why you don't like my actions post-scumslip because, well, you don't like my actions post-scumslip because you don't like my actions BEFORE the "scumslip". And that's reasonable, more reasonable than the people who want to lynch me for the scumslip, but you're not owning it! At least own it. Of the various people who seem to think I'm scum, you have a reason to do so OTHER than the scumslip. Why isn't that the centerpiece of your case? | ||
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On May 20 2013 16:53 Blazinghand wrote: So you have no rebuttal of all my points that have shot down your initial arguments, other than that the way I did so was "emotionless"-- and of course, the scumslip, which you believe to be real. And in particular I'd like to point out that me being "emotionless" has no bearing on whether or not I'm scum. It's not a scumtell for me, and I don't think it's a scumtell in general. What happened here was you made an observation, then said "oh, well I already think BH is scum, so I'm going to believe this observation supports my hypothesis!" even though the observation on its own isn't meaningful. | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:09 yamato77 wrote: To believe you're town, I have to assume: 1) You assumed there were 3 scum for no discernible reason, which is directly in conflict with the reasonable assumptions most people have made about the size of the scum team given the total number of players. This also shows an absolute neglect of paying attention to the thread. Honestly I don't have a good explanation for the slip other than that I thought "oh there are 3 scum in this game". That's it. On May 20 2013 17:09 yamato77 wrote: 2) Were so intent on proving yourself innocent that you made this faulty assumption instead of simply playing the game in a more conventionally townie way, such as scum hunting. This was specifically in the context of people talking about the usage of my role-- it didn't come out of the blue, it came up during conversation. There was talk of a marv+bh scumteam, and I noted (erroneously) that by night 3 I'll have masoned 3 people and it'll be clear I'm a 'confirmed town'. This statement was also wrong in that I assumed there is no possibility for a scum masoner, but the point is, it was during a conversation. On May 20 2013 17:09 yamato77 wrote: 3) Assumed immediately upon reading DP's post that it would be so difficult a situation to diffuse that it would get you lynched, despite him being only one member of the game, and there being a plethora of time between now and the lynch, and acted on this assumption. I didn't say it would get me lynched, I said if I get lynched for it I'd never live it down! And it's totally true. On May 20 2013 17:09 yamato77 wrote: 4) Made a weird post considering the possibility that your slip is real in a moment of "humor", despite DP breathing down your neck about the "scumslip". Not once, but twice now. Uh have you ever played with me? On May 20 2013 17:09 yamato77 wrote: To believe you are scum, I assume: 1) You are scum, made some colossally bad posts, and are now trying to control the damage in every way possible. See why I think you're scum? You have to also believe there are 3 scum in a 16-player game. You have to also assume that I forgot that this fact is unknown (despite that fact that a 3-scum team in a 16-player game is thinking a lot about the 3p role and definitely talking about their size in the group) You have to also assume that I, as scum, am a scum masoner in a normal mini game. All of these are as weird or weirder assumptions than the ones you brought up. The reason you think I'm scum has nothing to do with this and everything to do with how I played D1. You've thought i'm scum for the past 48 hours. | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:13 DarthPunk wrote: Actually all you have done is desperately fling meta into the thread to try and prove you do things as both alignments. I don't give a fuck about your meta. This isn't a meta case so stop bringing meta into it. The fact of the matter is, if you say "BH is doing this, this is something scum does" it's entirely valid to say "well, this is something I do as town" isn't it? Look, imagine if someone said "look how aggressive DP is! he must be scum!" you'd say "uh man I do that as town also, I'm always aggressive" and the person said "this isnt' a meta case so stop bringing meta into it" you'd be like "wat" | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:10 DarthPunk wrote: OK. Blazinghand is going to kick and scream and talk and talk and talk and argue away the slip. The fact remains that I am 100% confident he is scum. He slipped. Plain and simple. He slipped whilst trying to become confirmed town via his role. His mindset Directly after the slip is scummy as shit. He composes himself later and tries to drown out the blatantly scummy posts of his but it is too late. No matter what BH says he can't change those few posts which complete reveal a scum mindset. Add to that the only reason he is alive today is due to a Mason claim which could be scum aligned just makes this all the more obvious. Lynch Blazinghand tomorrow. No excuses. No Exceptions. No matter how hard he fights it. There is no new information here for me to respond to. | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:26 yamato77 wrote: You forgetting about the scum masoner possibility does seem like something a scum player wouldn't do. I want to know more about your reads before I write you off. For starters, tell me why you masoned marv. Basically, I came into night 1 with 3 big townreads: DP, Marv, and (to an extent) Iamp. I decided I needed to mason someone who A) is almost certainly town and B) I can work well with. A) is because I want it to be clear I was in fact a masoner. B) is so that, well, I'm using my skill in a worthwhile way. I decided that since the Iamp read is based on meta, and DP and I rarely interact well, I'd be best off going with Marv. Admittedly there was a risk to it since Marv and I have clashed once or twice recently (LXI), but Marv likes winning games of mafia more than he likes fighting with me, so I figured it was my best bet. | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:29 DarthPunk wrote: Of course he is not going to talk about a scum masoner if he is a scum masoner. The possibility had already been brought up. what yamato77 specifically is referencing is that my "scumslip" actually has TWO assumptions made in it, not just ONE. Assumption 1) there are 3 scum. Assumption 2) it's impossible that there is a scum masoner. I can tell you why I forgot about the possibility of a scum masoner: I haven't ever seen it as a role in a normal mini game. | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:32 yamato77 wrote: Why do you think Marv is so townie? I do not share that opinion, necessarily. Well, really it comes from two things. The first is that Marv decided to pick a fight with me very early D1. Although I ended up having an inactive and unhelpful D1, I am notorious for being very aggressive, tunnelley, etc during my D1s. I've definitely gotten into shitfests with scum and brought them down, and also pulled off last-minute voteswitches (several times!) against scum to catch them. When I'm having an "on" game, if you'll pardon my pride, I fuckin rock at mafia. I don't think scum Marv would go after me D1 just because of the chance I figure out he's scum, turn it around on him and bury him. Now, of course just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible, but I give Marv credit for going after me. The second is Marv's push against ST. Now, you might say "ST was a lurker who flipped town, how is this a towntell for Marv?" Well, basically ST was going to be lynched sooner or later. If I were scum I'd probably try to not lynch him for as long as possible, or wait until I needed lynchbait and gone after him. If he's alive at LYLO that's optimal. Scum has no reason to try to get this lynchable player lynched D1. Now, this isn't a sure fire thing, but with point 1 I think it's pretty convincing. | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:39 DarthPunk wrote: It's something I would do when fake claiming. I certainly would like to think that were I scum and scumslipping, I'd scumslip in a way that was calculated to also have a townslip in it. I'm glad you think so highly of me and yourself, DP. But EVEN IF I'm a canny enough player to think of something like that, it's still an unusual thing to have in a scumslip. This is a mitigating factor. | ||
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On May 20 2013 17:42 yamato77 wrote: I guess that's reasonable enough. I disagree with your reasoning, but I'm not pushing for a Marv lynch any time soon so that doesn't really matter. Talk to me about GK. Any updated thoughts on him? Honestly I've been entirely tied up with defending myself since the "scumslip" and haven't done the actual filter-diving that I promised beforehand. I'll get right on it. | ||
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MISTAKES WERE MADE OK I just happened to forget who my mason partner was that one time. It's only ever happened once, I don't know why you people keep on mentioning it. it's not like you've never made a similar-sized mistake. | ||
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On May 20 2013 19:28 DarthPunk wrote: It's not just the slip. It's the posts immediately after that. He is scum and needs to die. No question. No excuses. Just lynch the shit out of him. I died in 24 hours in my last game. I want that medic prot. Both you and I are a good save though. Like the fact that I am pretty chill and casual and also advocate strongly for my beliefs is not imo a scumtell. Everything I've posted has had a reasonable or hilarious explanation that is as or more reasonable than the scum-based explantion you're been pushing. If you want to refute my individual points, I'll be glad to argue this again with you after I get some sleep. But really man I don't think you have a leg to stand on there. | ||
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On May 20 2013 19:32 marvellosity wrote: No. I only want to know who is mafia, another argument about it will achieve literally nothing. I didn't say I wouldn't write cases and take a look at other players. But DP can't walk around saying there's no reasonable explanation for how I've played without me opposing him. If you were in my position, you'd be doing what I'm doing. | ||
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On May 20 2013 19:33 Blazinghand wrote: I didn't say I wouldn't write cases and take a look at other players. But DP can't walk around saying there's no reasonable explanation for how I've played without me opposing him. If you were in my position, you'd be doing what I'm doing. Also I consider "avoiding a mislynch" to definitely NOT be "literally nothing". I suspect not getting mislynched tomorrow will be contigent on two factors: defending myself successfully and writing a very cogent case with solid analysis. But I can't let DP just be like "nothing BH has said make sense" here in the thread and let that slide. I just can't. You know that. | ||
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oh, what a well argued series of points! clearly this is something that will convince people, and that I can respond to. A good use of both of our times! no wait the opposite of that | ||
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On May 21 2013 03:55 raynpelikoneet wrote: The problem is if marv is scum nobody has balls to lynch him other than me & yamato. I have the balls but he's not scum | ||
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On May 21 2013 00:30 JarJarDrinks wrote: Was leaning scum. I wasn't crazy about how he misread my meta or how he was so quick to believe BHs claim. Not sure why he thinks he was "the towniest motherfucker in the game" and then, and this is important, he decides that he's going to write a case against DP (link) when the easiest thing in the world is to say "yeah, DP is town look how he caught BH". This is not the move of a scum player, imo. A scum player has every incentive to give DP a townread, ESPECIALLY a scum player who has butted heads with DP already and now sees DP going after someone that said player targeted during D1. Why not say something like "ah, looks like you had some good in you after all DP! Yes, you are definitively town"? Why, as a low-activity inexperienced player, pick a fight with DP when it's pretty clear that BH is on the chopping block the next day? I don't see scum taking a huge unnecessary risk like that. I can see a town player doing it, though, if he really does think DP is scum. I can see him doing it even though it's a dumb idea, because he wants to do what's right and push his scumreads. JJD could be scum emulating a town player who does that-- but I don't think he is. I think he's town. | ||
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On May 21 2013 08:14 marvellosity wrote: it could not "very easily" be town vig, Wave. I'd eat BlazingHand's hat if one of those shots was a town vig shot. it's true; he would. | ||
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On May 21 2013 08:19 marvellosity wrote: I don't know which I find more likely. Maybe I'll muse on which Les Mis character would likely be SK. Tenardier perhaps? :> Blazing's assumption that it means 3p is certainly not a good one. When I was last mafia in a 16 player mini, we had a mafia vigi (Hero Mini Mafia). If town has a vigi he might not have shot last night. Who knows. If town has a vigi who didn't shoot I'd be very surprised. | ||
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On May 21 2013 08:21 marvellosity wrote: pretty low, he's constantly put off scumhunting + making cases, despite promising to do so last night. He didn't use our mason QT as a chance to get anything done like he said he would either. Further his opening couple of posts in said QT came off rather as overjustification for masoning me (I talk about this in the iamp QT too) but you asked me | ||
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in fact, when i gave a short explanation, you asked for more explanation afterwards, which i provided wtf | ||
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And, imo, my activity in the QT is not my best chance to avoid a mislynch. It's my activity in the thread, really. I'll do my best to write cases and generate valuable information before bed tonight. I doubt I'll be able to avoid getting lynched today, but it's still my duty to leave something behind so that after DP picks his jaw up off the floor he can get something done. | ||
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On May 21 2013 16:08 DarthPunk wrote: You've been saying that for a while now and haven't produced anything aside from empty promises. @stutters I am convinced Blazinghand is scum. I think the scum slip was genuine and his interactions were telling of a scum mindset. I have gone over this a lot already though. Yeah I'd say about 18 hours at this point. I spent most of last night thoroughly refuting your jubjubbery but i realize now it's not an optimal use of my time. | ||
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On May 21 2013 16:27 Stutters695 wrote: Didn't you acknowledge in the mason qt though that your tor would be better spent not refuting DPs attack on the "slip" yet you're still using that as your main line of defense. What's going on? On that note, I'm going to pass out, goodnight team. It's not a defense-- it's still as scummy to not have written cases. It's an explanation, though. I can't not respond to the attacks and show how empty they are, it's not in my nature. You wouldn't understand-- you're not like me. | ||
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On May 21 2013 16:30 yamato77 wrote: Yeah, I guess we just lynch BH. At this point, he's as good as confirmed mafia. confirmed by what? By my poor D1 play, which is not unlike other town games I've played? By my scumslip, which doesn't exist, and is something I do often as blue? Or by my strident and stirring defense of myself? If you say, "look, BH has spent most of his time defending himself, and not enough time hunting scum since DP went full retard on him" then that's a valid point, but then ask yourself this-- what would you do in my shoes? And also, knowing what you know about who I am and how I think, do you really consider this a scumtell? | ||
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On May 21 2013 20:36 DarthPunk wrote: I'm not actually sure how I went 'full retard' on you. like i can understand if you are scum trying to discredit me. But if you are town how do you go from earlier calling it a strong case to now calling it going 'full retard' the possibilities are not mutually exclusive. Deciding you're not going to interact with me or defend your case is full retard. | ||
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On May 22 2013 05:29 marvellosity wrote: Best not engage in any of the other discourse then! hue | ||
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Don't lynch Marv ever, all game. If I have only one townread, that townread is Marv. Anyone who votes Marv, anyone who thinks Marv is scummy, anyone who even doesn't instantly believe everything Marv says is in good faith, is a complete idiot. In addition to what I said earlier about Marv (link), there's the crucial fact that he didn't share the fact Iamp masoned him with me. A scum Marv would have every reason to share this fact with the town, every reason to confuse the townies and increase the shitstorm that was the case surrounding me during N1. Iamp was shot because like a jubjub he claimed blue 7 minutes before the end of the night instead of right at the end like an intelligent player. I'm 100% sure this was scum shot, that they were watching the thread, saw a blue claim, and fired their bullet. Seriously though there's 0% chance Marv is scum. I'm also strongly inclined to think DP is town, despite him being wrong about me and scumtells in general. He's legitimately not very good at mafia and doesn't understand how scumslips work (hint: they don't), but his belief is honest. His badgering and incessant attacks on me are what I'd expect from a town DP. It's not the push, it's the motivation behind the push, and that motivation is town. People are still on JJD, and I am aware at one point I was pushing him, but I think the guy is town, at least for now. I don't see why he'd attack DP. I mean, there is a certain possibility he's setting up for a switch in thread sentiment against DP after I flip town, but I really don't see that happening. I'm going to chalk this one up to "JJD is bad and doesn't change his reads all game, even in light of new evidence." JJD, if you're reading this, check out how DP goes after me immediately after the perceived "scumslip". He might be wrong, but his earnest attack is not something that makes sense from a town perspective. | ||
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On May 22 2013 06:36 Blazinghand wrote: Getting on to my scumreads, I'm absolutely sure at least one mafia was in thread and commenting during the last hour before night end, since they moved their shot onto iamp after he claimed. The people who posted within an hour of night end are grush, wos, stutters, marv, iamp, rayn, gk, and myself. Marv touches on that idea here (link) about an hour after the deadline. I'm gonna remove marv, myself, rayn, and iamp from the list since 2 of those are flipped townies, marv is confirmed town, and I sure aint making a case on myself. So, I'm looking at grush, wos, sutters, and gk. I still don't think GK is a good lynch. I've said it once and I've said it again, GK questioning the VA lynch doesn't make him scum, and although his role-pm reading shenanigans are INDEED shenanigans, the guy always has slow starts. Not a good D2 lynch. Okay, wow actually I take it back So, my plan was to write this meta case on how GK was actually town, right? But then I went and spent some time remembering and reading notes on how GK plays, and basically it can be summed up like this: Now, this was a case I wrote in The Game, where, yes, I was scum, but everything written here is true. Town GK is cautious at first, gathering information and momentum, then builds a case and follows it up. Scum GK throws his vote around aggressively and doesn't have followup, going onto whatever wagon happens to become popular. I was planning to open GK's filter and show how he's town, but he is not playing to his town meta, he is playing to his scum meta. Reading GK's filter, his play this game 100% is exactly as he plays as scum. He IMMEDIATELY comes out with a vote on stutters (link), then his next post (after chiding VA) swaps to Grush (link), then after defending himself from an early case he swaps to WoS (link) and he continues the madness all throughout the rest of D1, voteswapping and trying to stay on the popular wagon. This is literally scum GK. I'll eat my damn hat if it ain't. He's playing to his scum meta, he's also playing objectivity scummy and shitty (where's the followups to his push? what's with that list post? Why no careful analysis buildup?), and he was around when iamp claimed mason. ##vote GoodKarma | ||
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So, I'm looking at grush, wos, sutters, and gk. I still don't think GK is a good lynch. I've said it once and I've said it again, GK questioning the VA lynch doesn't make him scum, and although his role-pm reading shenanigans are INDEED shenanigans, the guy always has slow starts. Not a good D2 lynch. Okay, wow actually I take it back So, my plan was to write this meta case on how GK was actually town, right? But then I went and spent some time remembering and reading notes on how GK plays, and basically it can be summed up like this: On March 17 2013 11:27 Wade Fell wrote: DYH you say you agree that GK should probably be lynched today. Examining his play in NMMXXIV as town (link) I see a player who posts slowly and doesn't contribute much in the first half of D1, and only really starts writing cases (mostly unfocused and studded with FOSes at other players) as the game progresses. It's only in the later days that he picks up steam and starts hammering on players. In LVII as scum (link), GK comes out punching, immediately posting cases and voting/Fosing, and instead of pushing multiple reads, he changes who he focuses on as soon as his case fails to gain traction (instead of pressing on, trying to really get his target lynched). He also doesn't wait to formulate reads, he _immediately_ starts flopping mud at people. The GK in this game is the town GK that I've coached and observed extensively. He is cautious, posts rarely, and builds up momentum to be a formidable scumhunter. This is not the kinda uncaring, willing-to-make-any--case scum GK that I've seen. He is not a good D1 lynch. He is not a good vigi shot. He is town. Now, this was a case I wrote in The Game, where, yes, I was scum, but everything written here is true. Town GK is cautious at first, gathering information and momentum, then builds a case and follows it up. Scum GK throws his vote around aggressively and doesn't have followup, going onto whatever wagon happens to become popular. I was planning to open GK's filter and show how he's town, but he is not playing to his town meta, he is playing to his scum meta. Reading GK's filter, his play this game 100% is exactly as he plays as scum. He IMMEDIATELY comes out with a vote on stutters (link), then his next post (after chiding VA) swaps to Grush (link), then after defending himself from an early case he swaps to WoS (link) and he continues the madness all throughout the rest of D1, voteswapping and trying to stay on the popular wagon. This is literally scum GK. I'll eat my damn hat if it ain't. He's playing to his scum meta, he's also playing objectivity scummy and shitty (where's the followups to his push? what's with that list post? Why no careful analysis buildup?), and he was around when iamp claimed mason. ##vote GoodKarma | ||
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Yamato, I personally request this from you as well, since, as you admit, you've slowed down. I'd like you to weigh in on my GK case, specifically the meta component (since we're not talking about PM shenannnies) and let me know what you think of it. On May 22 2013 06:46 VayneAuthority wrote: I asked you what you thought about my reads a little while ago, could you go towards the end of my filter and tell me what you think? Absolutely. | ||
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On May 22 2013 06:48 Dandel Ion wrote: but good point on the switch onto iamp although, i guess as was pointed out, it's technically possible he was the shot all along, albeit unlikely, seeing as Hapa is not on the player list I'm absolutey certain the iamp shot was in response to his roleclaim. | ||
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On May 22 2013 07:07 Stutters695 wrote: Let's talk. I'm curious about your town read on JJD. I'm phone posting so I can't pull the quote since I'm on my phone but someone posted about his meta that seemed pretty damming in addition to his overall scummy stylle. If you have access to a computer can you check out what I'm talking about and give your thoughts. If not I'll pull the quote tomorrow morning and would like your thoughts before the flip. Also can you clarify your last paragraph (the one about JJD where you say "he may be wrong, but his earnest attack doesn't make sense from a town perspective." Who's attack doesn't make sense and why doesn't it from a town perspective if both people you're addressing there are people you have town reads on? Ah, my bad, that was a typo. I meant to say, JJD's attack on DP doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me from a scum perspective. This might just be because I know I'm going to flip town, but it seems to be a scum JJD might take this opportunity to buddy JJD and help secure an easy mislynch. | ||
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On May 22 2013 08:13 WaveofShadow wrote: BH for someone doing his best to engage people in the thread, you appear to be ignoring me. Dandel I expect it from. You I don't. I'm certain I've directly responded to your recent post addressing me. Is there another post besides this one (link) of yours that you want me to read? | ||
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On May 22 2013 08:07 Stutters695 wrote: Another thing I'd like to get your thoughts on. I put together a cursory read on DI towards the end on d1/early n1. It might be a little hard to follow considering I didn't quote the posts. I also noticed you've been ignoring him for the most part in your own filter. Can you go over my read/filter dive him and give me your thoughts along with why you've been so silent on a controversial person? Aside from his shitfest with marv (which I consider scummy (link)) DI has not been on my radar. I'll take a look at what else he's done this game and formulate a more complete read. | ||
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On May 22 2013 07:01 WaveofShadow wrote: This is your triumphant return to the thread Dandel? I don't understand this meta shit, say something that makes sense to me. BH now that you finally appear to be giving us reads, you've probably seen the scumreads that a few of us seem to share atm. Do you have anyone who doesn't fit into that list and if so, why? That would be more valuable imo if you somehow flip town. On May 22 2013 07:05 Blazinghand wrote: off hand I'd say I think JJD is town, not scum. That being said, I'll take a look at the current consensus and see where I disagree. | ||
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On May 22 2013 08:17 Stutters695 wrote: Also I'd like to bounce some thoughts off you regarding Grush and WoS if that's cool since those were the other two you were looking at (plus me, but if you have any questions about my filter you'll have yo ask those and I'll explain). Go right ahead! Unfortunately, I typically find grush unreadable as any alignment and an unusually unuseful townie. Up until LX I had a policy of lynching Grush D1, though Marv is generally able to discern his alignment with regularity. I'm modestly sure WoS is scum. He had an extremely flip-floppy post earlier in the game (link). I had him as one of my top scumreads over the course of D1, and it seems like he's fishing for reasons to attack me (like, what? I'm clearly getting lynched today) and not really reading what I have to write today. I'm not as positive on this as I am on my GK scumread though. | ||
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On May 22 2013 08:32 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh I see, misunderstanding. I meant do you have scumreads outside of JJD/dandel/GK? 1) 3 scumreads is clearly enough 2) I no longer have a scumread on JJD, if you've been reading my interaction with stutters this page 3) not really a solid scumread on DI, though this is suject to change 4) you | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ukN9z.png) | ||
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On May 22 2013 11:08 grush57 wrote: bh dinner lasts 3 hrs? still eating, but almost done. here is screenshot of dinner for proof: On May 18 2013 11:22 grush57 wrote: gaiz only scum try to lynch me STARSENSES herp derp ##Vote: goodkarma On May 21 2013 04:57 grush57 wrote: hello. I have been doing stuff other the weekend. I was thinking GK was scum now marv just made a case on him. So I'll vote for him tomorrow. these is your only mention of GK. What do you think of my case here? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18665161 weigh in. | ||
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On May 22 2013 10:59 Spicydinosaur wrote: With the focus on BH today, I feel a lot of players are taking the safe path today by not posting much and coasting to the vote. Very scummy. Spicydino is absolutely correct. If my lynch is a sure thing, then so be it-- but let's not be silent, let's use our time. I will be a confirmed town player in like 20 hours, but that doesn't mean we can't do anything beforehand. you seem to agree with my read on GK. what do you think of my most recent case on him? | ||
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On May 20 2013 04:51 JarJarDrinks wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote Spicydinosaur Guess everyone is believing BHs claim. :\ I like a spicy lynch way better then a GK or sputnik lynch. On May 22 2013 00:12 JarJarDrinks wrote: If I haven't mentioned him then nothing must have stood out to me as particularly scummy. I've liked alot of his reads (obviously not his scumread of me but I feel like it was a true read). The not reading his PM thing seems terrible but not really scummy. I think he's probably town. The second one specifically in response to people noting you've made no reads on him. I'd like to you to clarify: which of his reads have you liked? Also, what do you think of this case against him?: (link) Waiting until I've been lynched to reply to this is super lame btw so reply quickly | ||
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On May 22 2013 12:51 yamato77 wrote: I'm lazy today. I think BH looks a little better right now, but I don't know how much I really feel like moving the lynch off him, or if I even could at this point. It's plurality. If you think I'm scum, so be it, let's work together until I flip. But by god, if you think I'm town, get your vote off me. | ||
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On May 22 2013 12:49 Stutters695 wrote: BH can you give me a rundown on what you see in WoS. It doesn't have to be super in depth but when I did a skim of his filter it really didn't seem that bad. Sure! part of it is this post here (link) which to me looks like scum angling to be ABLE to place a vote on a potential wagon, but not willing to actually lay down his cards. Also, his interactions with me today have struck me as quite "off". I'm not sure why he seems so keen on attacking me for ignoring him when I haven't been ignoring him, or trying to make me look bad when there's no realistic way I'm not getting lynched. Being afk from the thread because you're bored is one thing-- showing up in the thread and posting without trying to contribute on anything other than an essentially predetermined lynch is quite another. Admittedly, he has recently interacted at GK. That being said, I don't like that he's pushing at and prodding GK without responding to my requests to look at the case I wrote, either. This all seems very off, very not like someone trying. I get that this isn't the strongest of reads, but his wishywashiness D1 and his play today strike me as scum angling to blend in and look good rather than someone legitimately trying to find things out about the game. | ||
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On May 22 2013 13:30 WaveofShadow wrote: At this point now I'm pretty sure you're scum and trying to piss me off. You are flat-out lying about my contributions in this thread and you say you haven't ignored me yet you didn't respond at all to my shutting down of your earlier post. Lying BH = scum BH. You want to taunt me to place a vote on a wagon? Fine. Makes more sense than getting Lurker Ion lynched today, not that anyone would listen to me anyway. ##Unvote ##Vote: Blazinghand When you respond to me and admit your lies in the above post, then we can talk. Until then, I'm continuing my look into GK. Make sure during your look into GK you check out his meta! | ||
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On May 22 2013 13:45 s0Lstice wrote: Pardon me, but what the fuck are you guys doing? The slip+the reaction should be plenty. If you don't buy the slip, there has been nothing that BH has done in the past while (after dragging ass for over a day) that scum BH couldn't do. I can't believe I have to be phone posting (I hate phone posting ) to say this. what specifically about my reactions after the scumslip don't you like? i'm not gonna remake the arguments why it's not invalid, but i'll definitely link you to them. | ||
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On May 22 2013 13:56 Stutters695 wrote: BH more than anything else I want your thoughts on DI (even if it's just agreeing with my points against him). I really don't like how little you've brought him up period. Sure, once i'm done with dinner I'll handle a critical examination of him | ||
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You can threaten to not interact with me and not discuss my reads to me, and that bothers me, but it won't change my mind about you and it won't make me lie and say I don't think you're scum. I'm not even sure you're scum. You're not my top read, not by a long shot-- and unlike a lot of players you are here trying to discuss this. If you want, we can not discuss my scumread of you. I'm okay with that. Or we can ignore each other and do our own distinct bests to contribute. I'm also okay with that. I'm not trying to enrage you. I have nothing to lose, I'm dead today-- I'm just doing my best to say "even though I got mislynched, I secured a win for my team" Death is not the end. | ||
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On May 22 2013 14:41 WaveofShadow wrote: See, you're not even reading my intentions properly. The reason I think you're scum is because you're deliberately lying. Fuck not shitting up the thread, I'll show you right now. In this post alone you do it. I'm not asking you to back down on your scumread of me, but you think I am. I'm asking you to admit your lies that brought you to the scumread. I'm not asking you to say I'm not scum at all. You say "if you want, we can not discuss my scumread of you," trying to paint me fucking scummy like I'm trying to avoid you, WHEN I FUCKING ASKED YOU MULTIPLE TIMES ABOUT YOUR READ OF ME Well sorry man, I just don't think of you as like top scum #1. I've made a lot of promises about things I'd read about and reads I'd give, and after briefly discussing you with stutters I had other fish to fry and dinners to eat. Pretending to be mad isn't going to help anyone here. On May 22 2013 08:43 WaveofShadow wrote: 1) Why is that enough? Who are your three? 2) I have been 3) ok 4) elaborate please 1) well, in the event of a 3p SK, there's probably 3 scum, and generally as a rule I try to focus on a small number of scumreads. At the moment, I'd say they're GK, then you and DI in the back (though this needs to be expanded on) 2) clearly you weren't, or you missed posts while writing your posts. You asked what scumreads I had about JJD after I walked back my JJD scumread. 3) ok 4) I'll get to you after I get to some other promises that I made first. On May 22 2013 08:43 WaveofShadow wrote: You STILL have not responded to this. Now would you like me to point out the points in your discussion of the case with other people where you are lying about me, or would you like to do that yourself? Um, I don't know where I'm lying about you. Like, most of what I said was literally cut/pasted or paraphrased from previous posts in my filter, so if I was lying now, why didn't you call me out when I said it during D1? Look WoS, you're being an abrasive guy and I get that that's your thing right now, but don't shit up the thread during my last 12 hours alive. I need to make use of this time. If your goal is to say I'm scum, ok, fine. If you're not sure I'm scum and are trying to determine my alignment as you claim, then go right ahead. I'll answer your questions. Believe it or not, my read on you is based on in part D1 stuff, as are a lot of my reads in all of my games. Just because it's now D2 (and a very quiet D2 at that, since scum doesn't want to rock the boat of this lynch) doesn't mean what happened D1 doesn't matter. If I had a scumread on you D1 and didn't push it well enough, fine-- that's on me. Sorry for not getting you lynched during D1, when I was playing in 3 games at once. I've put lots of effort into this game today, but it's spread around. It's not gonna be 50% WoS, 50% non-WoS. From everyone's perspective individually, most of my talking is going to be about people that's not them. Really though, let's keep it civil. I need to make this time count, whereas you have more time than me to accomplish your goals. | ||
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On May 22 2013 13:57 s0Lstice wrote: @bh I read your arguments. Not buying it in the least. Your reaction was a public face palm no matter how you try to posture it. It's a reaction I'd make as town. I suppose it's very evident to me I'd make that reaction as town, since I personally know that I'm town, but if you didn't find my arguments convincing you didn't. On May 22 2013 13:57 s0Lstice wrote: The best thing is, you don't even need the reaction to make the lynch BH argument. Like I just said, the reads you are scrambling to come up with on your deathbed aren't anything scum BH couldn't do, and do very little to alleviate the massive problem you have with a terrible early filter. Time for me to sleep now. Town, if you are letting BH talk you out of this lynch you need to reexamine the entire situation and remember why he is on the block in the first place. I don't like your drive-by style of play. I'd have liked to hear what you have to say about GK. The comments you've made about GK in the past like 48 hours begin with this: On May 20 2013 05:45 s0Lstice wrote: Yea I am not down with lynching GK and proceed gradually towards an implied scumread on GK. He's on your list of scummy players (link), but you argue with marv about some technicality not really related to your giving a read on GK (link)(link) (link) before making a meta-read that GK is scum (link). you ask JJB to weigh in on GK (link) then comment that GK could be 3p (with no explanation) (link) and that's it. You've been thinking about, talking about, and pushing for or at least calling scummy GK for the past 48 hours since your initial unwillingness to lynch him during mid D1. You clearly read the thread and my posting here, since you commented on it. What are your thoughts on my case against GK? Do you agree with it or disagree with it? | ||
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On May 22 2013 14:56 WaveofShadow wrote: I SO want to be done with you right now, you patronizing &%#*&*#@. Nobody fucking baits me into this shit better than you, BH. I guess you should be proud? Now first of all: This horseshit post. How dare you say I'm not fucking contributing. That's one. Do you want more? I have plenty. Your first quote is talking about me (and GK, who i mentioned). Your second quote is a really long null-read on JJD that you say to take "with a grain of salt". Your third quote is talking about GK, who I acknowledged you talk about. Your final post is a weird and noneuseful meta read, including a reference to NMM LX which is a game that hasn't taken place yet, since we're on still on NMM XLII. I dont' see any real contributions here, but I see a lot of stuff that looks like it! | ||
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On May 22 2013 15:09 WaveofShadow wrote: Typo, you smart-ass. NMM XL. And you're smarter than that to think I'd be talking about a game that doesn't exist. If this isn't proof you're trying to antagonize me I don't know what is. I'm done with you. Swing by the neck until you are dead. It's still a nonvaluable post even if it's referencing NMM XL. In any case, okay, I get it, you think I'm scum. You're done with me. For the next 14 hours how about you pretend I'm confirmed town (cause i will be after I flip!) and we work together? | ||
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Also as a heads-up, I won't be able to be here for the 2 hours leading up to the deadline, as I have lunch plans, so if you want some last words with me before the flip please show up early! | ||
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On May 22 2013 16:02 DarthPunk wrote: FIne. Because you aren't flipping town. Is marv bad too for believing in scum slips? You're not bad, you're just wrong. | ||
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On May 22 2013 16:03 DarthPunk wrote: I'll go you one better. I will make that my sig for all of time. Because you aren't flipping town. oh man | ||
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In return for that and the signature promise, if I flip anything but the role I claim, I will change my signature to something or your choice for all time. If, by some weird probability, you are scum this game (and this is almost certainly not true) then you don't have to change your signature. /handshake | ||
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On May 22 2013 18:44 marvellosity wrote: no Aww :< you're bad <3 (jk babygirl). DP is right though in that we stay on target. The massive problem with BH's contributions is that they came too late. Almost 48 hours after his shitfest with DP! Too long. The issue with this is two-fold 1) it gives time to view how the thread sentiment is. e.g. continued attacks on dandel, my new attacks on GK and JJD, etc. 2) it means he only has to contribute for 24 hours instead of 48 or more I'm also struggling to place 4 anti-town elements (which i presume we have, at least) without BH being one of them. Also if BH flips town he said I was 100% town so yolo! I can't help it if we agree! And I am no longer attacking JJD. I'd like to point out that solstice still hasn't responded to my post concerning him here (link) despite being in the thread. If he continues to ignore me make sure to pressure him after I flip to respond. | ||
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I'll be like the Jesus Christ of this game. | ||
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On May 22 2013 23:30 Spicydinosaur wrote: Calling bs on the bolded part. If you didn't have your slip, there wouldn't have been a singular focus on anyone at the start of D2. You HAD to say something today because of the mess you started. I award you no brownie points for that. The mess I started? I didn't choose to "slip", it just happened, and I did my best to explain how it isn't a slip. The fact that people decided that based on this, they should vote me, is understandable. The fact that they decided that based on this, they should vote me and stop talking, is not. I mean, I guess it's totally understandable: people are lazy and dumb and mafia are good at imitating that kind of behavior. Even though I understand it, I don't condone it. Even during my tunnellest of tunnels, I try to still talk to people about other things. | ||
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On May 22 2013 23:54 Spicydinosaur wrote: At this point you are going to get lynched since too many people are convinced you are scum. I suggest to just get as many reads off as you can as that is the best way to help town at this point. Dont' bother trying to do anything else as its a waste of time. No more self reflective posts, just reads. If you flip scum then we can just ignore it, but if you flip town, then we can possibly use it. Self reflective reads aren't useful for demonstrating I'm town, either. They're just there because that's what I like to post! It's always been clear ever since the "scumslip" that I was going to be lynched today. For whatever reason, the fact that I realized this immediately was scummy, but the point remains. I see no reason not to puff up my ego and fluff my feathers before I get lynched. What are you gonna do to stop me, vote me? hue | ||
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On May 23 2013 00:06 s0Lstice wrote: I skimmed it, I will give you a more fleshed out opinion before the lynch, during my lunch break (hour or so). I won't be around during lunch time, as I have lunch plans, which means you'll be giving your opinion to people who aren't me. Just make sure you do it before my flip! On May 23 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote: To be honest there isn't really much to say today. If you flip red like I expect you to then we are on track. If you flip green THEN we all need to starting putting in work and trying to figure out which townies are actual not town. This is not a good philosophy. When I flip town you'll start trying to make up for wasted time, and kicking yourself for doing nothing during D2, and praising my N2 and D2 play (as you promised!). | ||
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On May 23 2013 00:25 Stutters695 wrote: I agree with your GK post for the most part. I'm curious though, do you feel like him being 3p is an option? It's definitely an option. There's no reason my meta read on him wouldn't apply to him being 3p. That being said, a lot of it depends on what his 3p style is. Some players play 3p a lot like they play town, since as 3p you can (and should) earnestly hunt scum. GK swaps his vote around and makes poopcases as scum because he has a lot of trouble pretending to catch scum. He compensates by voting quickly and moving from wagon to wagon. Given that the meta read is in part based on his inability to fake hunting scum, and 3p doesn't fake hunt scum, but actually hunts scum, I think it's substantially more likely he's scum than 3p. | ||
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On May 23 2013 00:25 Spicydinosaur wrote: My point was that if you truly cared about this game and were truly town, you would stop posting shit like this. Why the antagonism at the end there... actually nvm, this conversation is going nowhere. It's not antagonism, it's a JOKE. The "hue" at the end of it isn't me talking about colour, it's me giggling. The point is, I'm dead anyways, which means I alone here am free to express whatever thoughts come to mind. | ||
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On May 22 2013 17:22 yamato77 wrote: Anyone here want to converse about this game? The game I want to play is: show me a case and I'll evaluate its strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps I can update myself on the game in the process, as I've paid little attention to the goings on of this thread today. * raises hand!* Yamato, I'm renewing my request that you take a look at my GK case. About 10 hours before you offered to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the case, I specifically asked you to look at it, and although you've commented to me about ihop and other things you seem not to have noticed, in your zeal to converse about the game, that I want to converse with you about the game. On May 22 2013 07:03 Blazinghand wrote: Yamato, I personally request this from you as well, since, as you admit, you've slowed down. I'd like you to weigh in on my GK case, specifically the meta component (since we're not talking about PM shenannnies) and let me know what you think of it. Absolutely. I know you've been around, Yamato, but you haven't weighed in on my GK case. You can read it here: (link). Your mentions of GK have been generally sparse. You called him "obviously town" during D1 (link), bringing up his high levels of effort (link). You give him a null meta read (link) which imo is incorrect, then call him town again (link), then call him town again then call him null again in the same post, then say you are unsure (link). You mention him a couple times in passing and imply he's not a good lynch (link) then you say we should leave BH alone and lynch GK (link). Then you criticize GK for sheeping (link) and call him and me a good lynch (link) without any explanation, then say you're on the fence about GK, again without any explanation (link). You then call GK a bad lynch without any explanation (link) ALL DURING DAY 1. During N1 you say.. well I'm not really sure what you're saying here, but you say this On May 21 2013 03:36 yamato77 wrote: I think that Dandel and GoodKarma are people to look at tomorrow. I've outlined Dandel already, so I'll explain my read on GK. While he explained his suspicions well, it's somewhat difficult to discern GK's true alignment. He seems to be sharply following thread sentiment. I can't reason which of his games he looks more like this game. Solstice made what I feel is a valid point in that he does seem to be continually defending his position, which is in line with my overview of his scum meta. So yeah I don't know what your read on him is from that. Then today you call him scummy and say he should be lynched after me (link). So yeah I really have no idea whether or not you have a consistent read on GK (yet you seem to want to lynch him). You've ignored my direct requests to review the GK case, [i]despite being confused and trying to make a meta read on GK[/o] and despite asking the thread for cases to review. Come on, man. Get your shit together. | ||
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On May 23 2013 02:09 yamato77 wrote: It's definitely not the first time a meta case was made on GK this game, so don't act like it's "your" case. Yeah but the other meta cases were all bad, claiming to be a null read or claiming he's scum for the wrong reason. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4h27L7o.gif) | ||
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but in the meantime let me tide you over with this wonderful post from DrH in British Empire II On March 06 2013 07:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Yeah, I'm moving back to Dandel Ion. He was aggressive to begin with. And now he's playing scared and talking about the setup, something that might have been very carefully parsed in the scum QT. One of my rules of thumb is that the more familiar a player is with the rules/setup, the more carefully they have considered it, the more likely it is they are scum. Scum begin the game by talking about setup, considering their options (roleclaims, etc.) and asking a lot of questions to the host. | ||
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On May 21 2013 06:59 Dandel Ion wrote: Why would a team around scum-BH shoot iamperfection, directly implicating him further? Basically, that assumes that either a SK shot iamp, or he's getting bussed all the way. Otherwise it just makes no sense. On May 22 2013 06:48 Dandel Ion wrote: lol bh and he responded to me once when I talked about who was online when the shot switched to iamp: On May 22 2013 06:48 Dandel Ion wrote: but good point on the switch onto iamp although, i guess as was pointed out, it's technically possible he was the shot all along, albeit unlikely, seeing as Hapa is not on the player list but he has not mentioned his GK scumread, and despite the fact that he's implied some evidence makes me look townie, he has not stated his read on me, or voted for me or GK today. He's had plenty of time, and is doing a decent job of staying above the activity threshold now far be it from me to say that someone is being too inactive to contribute in such an inactive town, but dandel ion who i guess thinks i'm town(?) and has his top scumread as the counterwagon to my unstoppable lynch wagon (GK), has not weighed in, has not voted, has not responded to my case on GK, hasn't really said anything. He's not literally inactive, i mean-- he's here, he's reading, he's responded to a post or two of mine. He's just not taking part in the discourse, not even the "beat up blazinghand all the time" discourse. He's scum. | ||
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Contrast how he played in Red Team's Prize, where he is more often talking about one player at a time, asking people questions, and trying to gain information. This game he's done a lot of trolling and not a lot of trying to figure things out, as well as some weird vote-throwing. That being said, his attack on GK doesn't jive with my idea of how he's played scum. I won't draw an associative tell between unflipped players, but since I won't be alive to do so later, if GK flips town I consider this soft evidence for DI's scumminess. That being said, I anticipate GK flipping scum, which is probably null evidence for DI's scumminess-- he may have learned to bus since not bussing cost him the game in British Empire Mini II. | ||
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On May 23 2013 04:12 yamato77 wrote: I think you have 3 hours. I'll prepare the eulogy. I actually will have to go before then! I'll be dropping in a final post in here a moment. | ||
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Marvellosity is town. I have NEVER been more sure of someone being town in my mafia career. Also, he's the only guy who's like never mislynched grush DarthPunk is town. I'm less sure of this, since he didn't do anything at all for all of D2 (not even really pressuring other people! But I think it's unlikely scum would get all on a townie for a perceived scumslip. Scumreads: [b]GK. We all know why. By met and activity and etc. WoS is scum. He started shitting up the thread as soon as people unvoted me, he's been pushing scum agenda, etc etc. DI is scum. scroll up to see. yeah it's a list post, it wont' earn my any cred. GK > WoS > DI in terms of priority | ||
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don't look at who votes me and who doesn't look at what people said, look at their history of whether they believe in scumslips if they were playing or observing in STtrm Mafia II or Mario Mini where I played like this WHY they think they are voting me what they did during D2 when movement was slow this is the most important, the meanings behind the actions, not the actions themselves consistency in their beliefs-- is this what they would think | ||
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On May 22 2013 11:20 Blazinghand wrote: these is your only mention of GK. What do you think of my case here? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18665161 weigh in. | ||
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jesus h christ also he's been playing just like he's played as town he's been less active today but i give him a pass on it. read his QT with iamp, scum marv would have advised early mason claim rather than advising against because he doesn't want to be implicated trust me | ||
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On May 23 2013 05:54 marvellosity wrote: like this is actually something with insight. sorry if you're town BH but we're committed at this stage. if you are town i wish you hadn't fucked around for so long before making cases, it just makes it impossible to trust you. i had to defend myself from DP. you've always known I was town, this is a policy lynch. | ||
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On May 23 2013 05:54 DarthPunk wrote: Yeah marv is town no matter what happens. Scummy post from s0lstice if bh flips green. I am actually super nervous about this, we should still lynch him, but he swayed me in the past 24 hours. jesus christ man it's like everyone knows i'm town and is lynching me btw DP you can't back out of the bet | ||
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I really was the best town player this game! | ||
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I even caught 2 scum despite not paying attention for the first 48 hours! that's how good I am. | ||
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On May 30 2013 06:12 Dandel Ion wrote: You're arguing about who's the best student in special class atm. The front of the short bus is still the front! | ||
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:D | ||
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E: on the bright side, I can always point to this game next time people try to mislynch me for a townslip | ||
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On May 30 2013 06:18 marvellosity wrote: why are you randomly being a complete prick? just curious I'm just mad that I misplayed and got mislynched  | ||
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On May 30 2013 06:20 marvellosity wrote: pfft, fine. the problem was no-one was good and no-one carried town when they needed carrying. s0lstice and grush randomly piling on GK at the end of the last day was really frustrating. no one was good besides me you mean | ||
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I TOLD YOU AND YOU SAID IT WAS IMPOssiBLE | ||
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wave in obs qt This may work in our favour. BH is now likely not to get protected so we can shoot him. I don't think DP can get him lynched even IF he really believes BH is mafia, and marv will be pretty certain he's town after the masoning anyway. see iamp!!?!? SEE/???? | ||
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On May 30 2013 06:29 iamperfection wrote: well that was stupid on their part you were a jib jub in the start no reason to shoot you. At least I wasn't you | ||
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On May 30 2013 06:34 marvellosity wrote: i'm certainly not claiming it's me, but any townie who gets lynched can't be MVP not in this game | ||
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On May 30 2013 06:41 marvellosity wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect this is a good point about yoru play marv, why do you think i did so poorly, must be D-K effect | ||
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DP also played his part very well. | ||
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BTW, if Iamp hadn't claimed 7 minutes before the deadline he'd certainly be town MVP just for looking so townie | ||
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I don't think of Survivor as a boring role, but I don't think being a commuter is necessary. I think it's better to offer Survivor this choice at game start: he can choose to either be 1-shot bulletproof, or return green to DT checks for the rest of the game. This is less flexible than 2-shot commuter but slightly more reliable, and lets the Survivor pick a "style" to play for the game. | ||
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E: of course you could just make the game double hilarious and have it be swingy AND have like 9 survivors or something horrible like that | ||
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Like, when I tunnel people as town, the one thing that gets me to back off is people manning up and contributing a ton. The thread was dead D2 of actual analysis (barring a few small cases), if you don't count what I was doing. If someone read the thread and looked at the contributions of the players during D2 and saw I was being lynched they'd be like "wat" And in part this is why I am like "wat" because I still don't understand what people really found scummy about my reaction during N2. I immediately realized I scumslipped, because I'm a smart guy and I notice these things after I post when I read my post for the first time. I did my best to explain my reasoning in a logical way, and yes, I didn't analyze a whole lot since I was busy defending myself from this horrible push, but it's what I had to do. Where in my mindset where I specifically shoot down all of DP's arguments is there a scum mindset? I really don't understand what people found scummy about my play besides this: BH was busy D1 because he was in 2 other games and arguing in the post-game of another game he was hosting BH "scumslipped" N1 and spent a good deal of time defending himself vigourously and completely openly, sharing every thought that entered his mind with the thread. E: Like people were like "wow dude you can't say you 'stepped in it' or act like you made a mistake, that's a scum mindset" but it's really not-- it *is* a mistake to scumslip as town, since I should have known the number of scum wasn't outlined in the OP. The fact that I shared my wry jokes and observations with the thread was because I'm totally open as a townie, and hide nothing-- but people considered these things scumtells and I'd like to know why. And if you think I'm wrong here, then this is a learning opportunity for me-- please advise me. | ||
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And look, I've addressed that Night 1 I had a lot of shit on my plate. I assumed that by masoning with Marv I'd prove my towniness, just from having done it. Then the whole thing with DP popped up and I had to deal with it. Like, you think "oh blazinghand didn't use his mason power well" but I masoned someone everyone was sure was town, I didn't think people would be like "herp derp there's a scum mason in a normal mini" or even worse, speculate that somehow Marv was scum with me. (edit: also I assumed I was the only mason, which seemed like a reasonable assumption) I'm gonna say this though: I put forth an effort to scumhunt while I was still alive that I'm not sure I could replicate as scum. I'm not sure I've ever tried as hard as I did during my last 36 hours alive during this game at any game of mafia. Driving me wasn't just an urge to survive, but something more-- a feeling that I was right. I haven't ever experienced what it's like to be mislynched as town inevitably before this, and let me tell you: it's demoralizing. But I dug deep within me and found something that I'm not sure I'll ever be able to find except in situations like this. I hadn't really been reading the thread, everyone (and I mean everyone) thought I was scum, and really it seemed hopeless. To come back from that and nail 2 scum (though misnailing one town) and make 2 solid townreads (though DP definitely had me going) I think is probably one of my greatest accomplishments, ever, in mafia. I consider what I did in the second part of D2 to have been an isshokenmei (link), an extraordinary effort I probably won't ever be able to achieve again easily, and certainly not artificially. If I was scum, I'd absolutely try, but doing something like that takes a great deal of motivation. So what would it look like if I was scum? Probably the same, but with less effort, with worse (and more wrong) cases. I wouldn't be able to replicate that effort as scum. E: And if it seems like I'm butthurt, yeah, I'm butthurt. I legitimately think some of my best play ever happened during D2, and I got lynched. I think I was pretty clearly town, and I think people are just bad at integrating new information into their reads. Do I blame marv a bit for lynching me? yes, of course. Guys like Yamato etc thought I was town and either didn't unvote me or failed to convince others. Marv though, he had his doubts, though he didn't voice them, and he didn't contribute for most of D2-- people even became suspicious of him later for this. The thing about Marv though is, he's a leader. I expect him to lead. And when he falls asleep at the wheel, there was nobody else to step up and lead town. This is why I don't blame guys like Yamato or spicydino-- they are not leaders, they did not have the responsibility of pushing their townreads on me to save me. | ||
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On June 04 2013 05:20 s0Lstice wrote: What are you trying to accomplish here BH? You will be satisfied if we all agree that your mislynch was Marv's fault? I would find that unsatisfactory. I mean, I'd probably get some satisfaction but I don't think that's what I want here. I want to know what I could have done 24 hours out from the lynch to stop it form happening. If that answer is "nothing", then so be it-- but I also feel a need to demonstrate that given my time constraints, I did the best I could. People seem to think I didn't care about this game, but I actually think I'm one of the few people who really did care. I feel sad that I got lynched. | ||
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On June 04 2013 05:21 WaveofShadow wrote: Valid point I suppose. I agree DP played extremely well as did Vayne. I'm not sure how your 'best game' criteria is only based on how well they fooled YOU however. I also still don't think it's fair to solely blame marv; town lost because town didn't step up, it's as simple as that. You think it's fair for me to blame the entire rest of town when I had you pegged as mafia D1 in Carnival Cruise but nobody listened to me? The onus is on me to find a way to make the town listen as well as on them for not listening. This is a reasonable point. When I got rolling in the thread, what should I have done? I had two times during this game when I had a lot of time to do stuff. One of those times was during N1, and I spent a lot of my time thoroughly debunking DP's scumslip case on me. I feel in retrospect I should have ignored him and just hunted scum, but that's not something that I'm super good at doing. I have a need to argue with people who state things that are wrong (like here). The other time I had time was like the last 30 hours of D2, and I think I played extremely well, the best I have ever played, during that time. | ||
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On June 04 2013 05:25 Dandel Ion wrote: That's the same thing you admonish other players for, though. You had a townread for his first-cycle play and were not able to change that even when he played "for" mafia. This shit is not anybody's "fault", though, it's basic human behaviorism to just stick with what used to be your thoughts previously. And it obviously goes all possible ways. What I hope you learn from this game is that you absolutely cannot, ever, expect a player, no matter how "good" you think he is, to play objectively well. It's just bad thinking, wrong, and doesn't get you anywhere. Wave did the same mistake from the other direction, constantly worrying about marv suddenly figuring the game out (even after days of him not motioning even slightly to go anywhere near that direction) 99% of the times, it's not gonna happen. Don't rely on other players to play the game for you. Etc. Like, I consider my final read on DP to still be okay, just not good. He was playing for the scum but I still couldn't see scum jumping on and pushing my scumslip like that-- and I was right, in a way, since he wasn't scum. I knew something was up with him, as I posted my my final read post, but basically, as a survivor he was never worth lynching. I'd say that my townread on DP was not a mistake in the same way that my scumread on GK was. Successfully reading a survivor is hard, and lynching DP would have been a mislynch. And yeah I realized that I can't rely on others, as I have posted previously. | ||
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On June 04 2013 05:25 VayneAuthority wrote: The problem is you think it was a skill level issue when the problem was people played by the setup in a closed setup. If a mason wasn't already dead this game would be very different. Even as scum, I was trying to get people to stop thinking in terms of setup and think in terms of motive but to no avail. Its one of the things that really bothers me, when people play by meta and setup rather than by motive/logic Oh yeah Iamp claiming 7 minutes before the deadline screwed me, but it's not like the guy played bad otherwise. (he also might have had time restrictions and couldn't post like 30 seconds before the deadline). If it weren't for that play, he'd be MVP imo. This setup was specifically a "don't speculate about the setup" setup with 2 half-masons and a 1-kp scum team with a 2-shot vigi. I personally don't speculate about setups much, but I get why people do it. And I don't think people were too "unskilled" to realize I was town. I think skill in mafia is more about being able to make good cases and reads than it is about recognizing them. Even a "bad" townie knows how to sheep. It's not the job of most townies to recognize when a wagon or tunnel goes bad, it's the job of those who step forwards to lead the town to do that. If everyone thought independently, I could blame them, but most people follow the herd, even against their best instincts. I know that I certainly have sheeped cases because it's a lot easier to recognize a good case than to write one. Changing your mind on someone you've thought is scum for 48 hours is hard. I'm just wondering what I could have done given my time restrictions to do better. N1 I'm fairly sure I should have briefly rebuffed DP then hunted scum, even though doing so is against my nature. Any comments about the last half of D2? | ||
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And like, I legitimately think my play this game was great when I had time for it, and clearly it didn't "show" that I cared (or maybe it did, and didn't show that it was town) because I still got lynched. But is that really it? Given my time restrictions, nothing I could have done better, just make sure not to sign up for too many games at once next time? Also like 100% it's legitimate for me to place some of the blame for my lynch on other people, just as legitimate as it is for me to blame myself for the lynch. I guess my decision to sign up for multiple games was the main reason for my mislynch, giving me primary fault-- but the secondary fault falls on the part of the most vocal and capable townie, Marv. And I also think it's totally legitimate for me to think I'm the town MVP of this game. Sure, I got mislynched, and sure, I basically pushed mislynches on both GK and Sputnik Theory (though ST had to be lynched eventually anyways) but I think I played like a champ. I believe it is totally my place to question others on why they didn't "clean up my mess" because part of being a good townie is differentiating bad town from scum. AND, even if I'm not right to blame Marv or Yamato or whoever, I sure as hell am right to question them about it and try to make sure everyone plays better next time, right? | ||
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Blazinghand
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On June 04 2013 06:00 WaveofShadow wrote: I think it's time to take a deep breath and set fire to your feelings about being mislynched as they float downriver in a wooden boat. Let it go. I did that a week ago, and coming back, I still feel like I need to learn or teach a lesson from this. You don't improve (or rather, I don't improve) by letting things go. I improve by finding out my mistakes and not repeating them. Most people accept getting mislynched as part of the game, and that's fine. I find it unacceptable. A good closing thought for this game isn't "I made a mistake", but rather, "I made a mistake, and I won't make it again, and here's how." | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 04 2013 06:04 marvellosity wrote: The long and short of it is this; it was about 48 hours between the time you said you were going to search for mafia and when you actually looked for mafia. You did look pretty townie when you looked for mafia, yes. But you left it too late that there existed a very real possibility (in my mind) that you'd put it off for so long so you could just make one enormous effort to stave off your lynch, and that also you could gauge town reactions. My gut call towards the end of day 2 was that you were town, but my gut's been plenty wrong before, and given the slip + 48hour scumhunting gap, I didn't have the confidence to move the lynch elsewhere. If you say you're going to scumhunt on Sunday evening and you only produce something Tuesday evening despite multiple promise in between, it smells. Even after you argued with DP on Sunday evening, you had Monday to do shit, and you did nothing that day either despite repeatedly promising to. If you're short of time then don't promise shit you can't deliver... Reasonable enough. So I should have stated I'd be busy for the first half of D2, and would contribute later. I didn't anticipate needing a long time to prepare for the interview, but it happened and I should have accounted for that, or at least kept the thread better updated on my activity. Thank you for the advice. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 04 2013 06:15 marvellosity wrote: I made a post at some point which had about 6 or so of your quotes all saying you were scumhunting imminently, where nothing had come the scum motive is that you're putting off having to contribute, and you're sensing who the thread wants to lynch before making your play i'd have been far less inclined to lynch you if you hadn't kept saying that the cases were coming soon and then they didn't come soon. I know you're not one to bring real life into games, but i'd much rather you said "i can't do x until this time"... which WILL look dodgy, but it will look a lot less dodgy than how what you did came across Ah, I see how that could be a scum motive. The thread was relatively dead during D2 though (except for everyone saying they wanted to lynch me), so I'm not sure that scum me would have been waiting to gauge thread sentiment, but I see how in other situations that could easily be the case. I think I could reasonably say when I'm available without mentioning real life, but I'll probably just say I'm eating dinner for whatever period of time. I just don't think it's ever a reasonable choice to mention real life except if you're talking to a host and asking to replace out or something. I mean, there's no harm in doing it but it's always meaningless-- there's nothing stopping scumBH from saying "oh yeah I'm busy for 24 hours" when in reality he's gauging the thread or whatever. Doing so should give no towncred except a little bit for at least keeping the thread in the loop. This is basically how I feel about talking about IRL | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Draw: TL Mafia XLVII Town Detective Survived Win: Student Mafia Town Medic Survived Win: Purgatory Mafia Town Vanilla Shot N5 Loss: Resistance I - London Calling Town Vanilla Endgamed Draw: Sleeper Cell Mafia II Town Vanilla Killed N6 Loss: Werewolves Invade Teamliquid II Town Doctor Killed N0 Loss: Resistance II - Tunnel Rats Mafia Vanilla Endgamed Loss: Storm Mafia Town Floridian Lynched D2 Win: Aperture Mafia Town Phoenix Wright, Ace Attorney Killed N1 Loss: The Sum of All Fears Mafia Town US Doctor Killed N1 Win: Im a cop you idiot mafia Mafia Vanilla Lynched D1 Loss: TL Mafia LI Town Vanilla Engamed Loss: TL Mafia Area LIII Town Vanilla modkilled D2 Loss: TL Mafia LIV Town Vigilante Killed N4 Loss: TL Mafia LV Town Mad Hatter Killed N2 Loss: Emergency Mini Mafia! Third Party Serial Killer Lynched D3 Win: Age of Empires: The Age of Kings Mini Mafia Byzantines Lynched D1 Loss: Bureaucracy Mafia! Mafia Hired Hitman Killed D3 Win: Rockband Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Killed N1 What: Caller Game - Remove Kebab Caller Win Loss: Liquid City Mafia Town Watcher Killed N2 Loss: Whose Line Is It Anyway? Mafia! Town Vanilla Endgamed Win: Mario Mini Mafia Town Jailkeeper Killed N3 Win: Paranoid Mafia Town Mason Miller Survived Loss: Parallel World Mafia Mafia Goku Killed N3 Loss: Themed Game Mafia Anakin Skywalker swarmed to death by hipsters D1 Loss: TL Mafia LX Town Sheriff Shot Night 3 Win: The Game [N] Mafia Messenger Shot Night 2 Loss: Les Mafia Night Mason lynched D2 Win: Doctor Who Mafia The Doctor shot D2 Win: Carnival Cruise Mafia Mafia Thomas Jefferson killed Night 2 11-17-3 clearly i am the proest of pros, 33% winrate | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 04 2013 09:38 marvellosity wrote: also BH, you haven't won a non-scum game where I wasn't on your team since Aperture That's just an artefact of most of the time I play with you, we're both town (since town is the most likely alignment) and most of the time I play, I play with you. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 04 2013 10:02 marvellosity wrote: maybe, but in that time as well, 6 of your losses I was a different alignment to you. i think this is the first game we had the same alignments and we lost :< edit: no! LIII it happened too further edit: by my count you're 5-2 when you're the same alignment and 0-6 as different alignments. COINCIDENCE? I think not! :OOOOO clearly it would be 7/0 and 0/6 but in 2 games you manage to drag me down | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 04 2013 13:15 DarthPunk wrote: Your GK push wasn't convincing enough. If your case had blown away the town and you spammed up the thread calling for a lynch you would have lived. Town won't switch off you if they have to think too hard. you need to make it really really easy for everyone to switch wagons. I suspect part of that had to do with the fact that he was town. If he was scum I'd be able to find more info on him. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
we were lost at sea but for his wisdom | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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