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On April 11 2013 17:17 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 16:14 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 11 2013 16:11 DarthPunk wrote:
Looking back on it that axle wagon really raped the scum team. yup. Both of us were sleeping/out. That was probably the tipping point. Marv dying just screwed us over more. Lightning rod should never be ever used again Dandel. It basically takes out the choice in NK day 1 for scum which wouldve been somewhat vital this game. Nah lightning rod was balanced. Anyone who didn't read the OP (surprisingly many players) could have killed it with their vig shot. As a power role it is only mildly useful for town IMO.
Its a sucky town role yeah.
The problem is that scum dont get to choose their n1 kill. Thats the stupid thing about it.
Marv dying was the nail in the coffin.
Haha played marv like a FIDDLE.
It was going so well up to the WoS n-1 not getting lynched.
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On April 11 2013 19:08 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 18:59 sciberbia wrote:On April 11 2013 17:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 11 2013 16:14 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 11 2013 16:11 DarthPunk wrote:
Looking back on it that axle wagon really raped the scum team. yup. Both of us were sleeping/out. That was probably the tipping point. Marv dying just screwed us over more. Lightning rod should never be ever used again Dandel. It basically takes out the choice in NK day 1 for scum which wouldve been somewhat vital this game. It's kind of funny that you and marv were yelling at me/calling me stupid so much for calling you scum day one. You should consider yourself lucky DP; calling oats scum nearly got me lynched. Don't let mean old marv get you down  That is true lol. I couldn't believe people wanted to lynch you. :O
Damn. I almost lynched sci too.
So many close calls for town 
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On April 11 2013 19:56 Dandel Ion wrote:I already said I won't use LR again. But the game was balanced as fuck, so whateveeeeeeer.
You mean Palmar/Ace/Marv/Sci town?
yeah. balanced.
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On April 11 2013 20:10 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 20:07 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 11 2013 19:56 Dandel Ion wrote:I already said I won't use LR again. But the game was balanced as fuck, so whateveeeeeeer. You mean Palmar/Ace/Marv/Sci town? yeah. balanced. I think this game proved how little stock to put in ideas like that. Marv was dancing to scums tune and you almost mislynched sciberbia. Look how much foolishness and Ver did in Personality 2. I am happy that Dandel Doesn't balance around vets. It's a retarded idea.
The point of this is that our team had very little thread influence(Not activity based, like skill based), like marv HAD to push wrong lynches for us to win. All of us cant spearhead a lynch, we need someone to take our ideas and kill dudes with it.
Which takes a lot of power out scum's hands again, which I didnt like.
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Also instant majority made it really hard for scum, especially on day 1.
Somehow Axle got lynched for basically the lulz and since he was scum, lotta dudes with lotta town cred.
Me and tunkeg COULD NOT STOP IT/we werent even in the thread.
I think all the games with random switches on to scum have worked out really well for town. And the instant majority made it easy for that to happen.
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On April 11 2013 20:35 sciberbia wrote:
I'm strongly in favor of true RNG.
I don't think you can argue that scum played as well as town in this game. Good scumplay is defined per the win condition as not dying. All 3 scum died. It's not like it's not within their power to not die. If they had all played the towniest games of their lives they would surely have won. Not saying it's easy but I'm saying the better team won.
Mafia is a team game. As long as the setup is such that the better team will usually win that is fair in my book.
In most team games you can make fair teams for every game but a key feature of mafia is that knowing who is on your team ruins the game. I think it takes away a lot of the spirit of the game if marv knows going in that either palmar or ace must be scum.
edit: another reason I don't like it is that it puts newer players at a completely unfair disadvantage. All the vets know what teams would be considered balanced but newer players may not.
It also unfairly advantages players who personally know the host and what he would be likely to do.
imo it is much more fun to try to figure out whether someone is scum by analyzing their filter and interactions with other players than playing guess-what-the-host-thought-would-be-fun.
The thing is, games arent like that. No one ever gets lynched for 'BALANCE REASONS THIS GUY IS SCUM'. There is always the main element of analyzing filters and shit like that.
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On April 11 2013 21:02 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 20:53 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 11 2013 20:35 sciberbia wrote:
I'm strongly in favor of true RNG.
I don't think you can argue that scum played as well as town in this game. Good scumplay is defined per the win condition as not dying. All 3 scum died. It's not like it's not within their power to not die. If they had all played the towniest games of their lives they would surely have won. Not saying it's easy but I'm saying the better team won.
Mafia is a team game. As long as the setup is such that the better team will usually win that is fair in my book.
In most team games you can make fair teams for every game but a key feature of mafia is that knowing who is on your team ruins the game. I think it takes away a lot of the spirit of the game if marv knows going in that either palmar or ace must be scum.
edit: another reason I don't like it is that it puts newer players at a completely unfair disadvantage. All the vets know what teams would be considered balanced but newer players may not.
It also unfairly advantages players who personally know the host and what he would be likely to do.
imo it is much more fun to try to figure out whether someone is scum by analyzing their filter and interactions with other players than playing guess-what-the-host-thought-would-be-fun. The thing is, games arent like that. No one ever gets lynched for 'BALANCE REASONS THIS GUY IS SCUM'. There is always the main element of analyzing filters and shit like that. That actually happens all the time.
No. People say that, but no one ever gets lynched off that only.
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On April 11 2013 21:08 marvellosity wrote:
Mafia were never going to win this game, there was just too large a difference in abilities/thread impact.
This might sound like I'm bashing on the skill of the mafia but it's not how it's meant to come across.
None of the people on the mafia-team have a history of large thread impact in a game and that's just a fact.
This game was always going to be a town win.
If you're happy for a game to be one-sided for the sake of some silly RNG concept, then fine, but you'll get games where mafia basically can't win like this one.
I would say if normal deadline and no stupid lightning rod, we wouldve had a chance based off the first 48 hours.
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I think my scumgame improved, but I dont think it was because there were no high impact players on scum's side. Its probably cause I know my meta more and have just played more games to be comfortable with posting and shit. .
Marv totally sheeped me day 1, fucking instant majority lynch.
Right there is where we lost the game.
The point I was bringing up about the 'good' mafia players/high impact players is because in a game SUCH AS THIS, with instant lynches, you need dudes like marv/palmar or the like to be able to PUSH the lynch through. You see on Axle, if Palmar didnt switch but proposed a new target or whatever, I dont think it wouldve gone through. Same with Ace.
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On April 12 2013 01:16 marvellosity wrote:I was going for truthful edit: oats, not sure you know what 'sheeping' means dear
It means you want to lynch a player after I call him scum 
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On April 12 2013 01:36 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 01:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
I disagree still.
There is nothing that indicates a scumteam of sciberbia/DP/whoever would necessarily have been better than what we had.
You know why? Cause people like Axle, who play very differently dependent on alignment, are unlikely to get lynched as town.
It's all just conjecture, saying that you would have been able to balance the game better on that basis without considering those 3 vets. The argument is based on seeing the results, but there is no empirical evidence that it actually holds in practice (also there's no evidence that the reason the scumteam lost was because of player imbalance either!)
And to top it all off there's no measure of skill that says the scumteam you proposed is better than the one that was in this game, or that the change would have kept town level the same.
E: this was @ DP and whomever else was talking about the teams I'm kinda tempted, in a completely arbitrary manner, to do some kind of ELO rating for players with both a town and a mafia ELO, with results in games averaged across the team's ELO. Just for curiosity of how it looks. On a speculative note, you could say that you'd expect games with a higher proportion of players with large disparity between town and mafia ELOs to have more positive town results, regardless of 'objective' rating. For example a game of 12 iamperfections would more often result in a town win than a game of 12 wbgs.
12 Iamps.
Hilarious
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On April 12 2013 02:20 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 02:08 WaveofShadow wrote:I think the only thing I didn't get about the hammer was this: (as it was my first Instant Majority Lynch game) On April 11 2013 09:03 WaveofShadow wrote:On April 11 2013 09:00 Ace wrote:
np. Lynching me was inevitable if going by sciberbia's theory (which turned out correct) and neither Oats or Tinkeg flipped. I just wished people read my scenario where if I was Scum why didn't I hammer you when I had the chance. Thought that was a dead giveaway but prp tunneled me to death and that got swept under the rug. Yeah my issue was as I said prp's thought processes were more or less exactly what I was thinking about you at the time; imo real hard to do something like that as scum. I figured you not hammering me would be because you'd be worried about how it would look bad rather than just go balls out for the mislynch but I guess not hammering (as can be seen in the scum QT) is just considered bad scum play. I'm rarely worried about how a hammer vote looks, but not hammering in this game as Scum probably was a bad play. Little time left in the day, a couple of wagons pushed, and tons of finger pointing probably means no one worth their salt is going to blame you for the hammer.
really unfortunate timing and push choices screwed us there.
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On April 12 2013 03:22 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 03:10 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 02:59 iamperfection wrote:
its almost like a game is still going on.  ![[image loading]](http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k94/ummms/funny/htv994.gif)
Do you just spend all your time when you are getting mislynched finding funny gifs?
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EPT
