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@geript: Damn you, I spent too much time on this 
Roles we want to attempt to deny:
Inventor
CPR Doc
Janitor
Thief
Roleswapper
Hooker
Other roles that both teams probably want, so maybe some of these should be taken in the next few slots:
Rock Star
Jailkeeper
Bulletproof
Hero
NRA Member
Meth Man
Vigilante
Russia (Maybe...depends on if they have to use the Nuke publicly like America...if they don't then this goes here)
Assassin
Politician
Vote Rigger
Jack
Role Reverser
Prince of Darkness
Moderator
BloodyC0bbler
Roles that are (almost) strictly town roles and good picks anywhere you can get them:
NKVD Agent
Detective
Role Cop
Parity Cop (**Note: Detective roles listed in order of strength. DT and NKVD are basically equal, though)
Witch
Doctor
Medic
Veteran (This is arguably a solid scum pick too, but I'm not sure they would actually pick it with stronger roles in the game. ..............Depends on how far down the order are, probably)
Capitalist
Priest
Roleblocker
Bone Breaker (Although this is arguably not super useful)
Fake Steve
Some roles that townies basically have 0 reason to pick except for trolling/funtimes:
Martyr
Bodyguard
Floridian (This role isn't terrible, I just feel like its weak unless you are very late in the draft and just want to get a role)
Cupid
Showtime!
Justice Vigilante (Unless you are just a 100% master scumhunter never wrong, don't pick this)
There are some obvious roles that I didn't mention because I'm not sure where to put them.
America!: This role is "strong" for both teams. But, I honestly just feel like we would be better off as a town to just refuse to pick it. Make mafia waste a pick on it, if they want it. And if they do, we can lynch them. If someone from town does pick this, you will 100% be held accountable for your shots. If you're going to use it, you better be DAMN sure.
Day Vig: This is basically in the same boat as America!, except its a lot weaker. Oddly, that might make mafia more likely to pick it, because of WIFOM. Use/pick with extreme discretion.
Kingmaker: This is the hardest one to pick. Obviously scum could use it quite effectively, while it would be extremely hard for town to use while having any accountability. Being forced to use it every day makes it hard to use for town. Who knows where it goes.
Admiral Ackbar: Another weird role, because it is reasonably strong in scum hands, but it's not necessarily gamebreaking when the scum has no idea how many people it would kill. Maybe 0. Might be worth attempting to deny, but I'm not sure.
Framer: I originally had it in my town Do Not Pick list, but I didn't realize it had the "redirects any night action by the player. So its basically a roleblocker, but hurts town if it happens to coincide with a check. Yea, I still think town doesn't have much/any reason to pick this.
There are a few more that I didn't mention, but they are generally just mediocre and/or super hard to use.
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On April 05 2013 15:24 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +If someone from town does pick this, you will 100% be held accountable for your shots. If you're going to use it, you better be DAMN sure.
I dont see how mafia cant abuse this liberty. They tunnel a guy, then nuke him. And we dont lynch him Policy regarding nukes, if you launch one, you are scum bro.
Maybe an addendum:
If you launch one, and you hit town, then you get lynched no questions asked.
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On April 05 2013 15:27 yamato77 wrote:
Rayn is probably town. He's an idiot at times, but eh. I don't think he'd be so spammy and carefree as scum.
Vivax' town read of him is not that odd. What is odd about Vivax is that he's not screaming at someone for being scum yet.
The problem with this is that I think he was either drunk or high. Its easy to make bad decisions that you normally wouldn't make when you're fucked up.
But he was basically just quoting a "Scumtells For Dummies" book at people while yelling scum.
Who knows. Hopefully he calms down tomorrow.
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On April 05 2013 15:29 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:26 Keirathi wrote:On April 05 2013 15:24 Oatsmaster wrote:If someone from town does pick this, you will 100% be held accountable for your shots. If you're going to use it, you better be DAMN sure.
I dont see how mafia cant abuse this liberty. They tunnel a guy, then nuke him. And we dont lynch him Policy regarding nukes, if you launch one, you are scum bro. Maybe an addendum: If you launch one, and you hit town, then you get lynched no questions asked. Arguably, nuking at all should get the person lynched I guess. Scum with the role could nuke scum for the town cred (really stupid and wifom but it's in the realm of possibility) and to bypass all of that, we could just agree to policy lynch America when they are outed in the thread to be 100% sure.
If someone is scum and starts nuking his buddies, then I'm fine with letting him live TBH.
Think about it like this: If that person is trying to emulate town, then what is the normal mafia reaction? To NK said person. If they are still alive 2/3/whatever days later, then we can talk about it again. I think its dumb to say "We're going to policy lynch anyone who uses a nuke, even if they hit scum" because then if a townie  OES* pick America, and they O* hit scum, then scum don't have to use a kill to get rid of him because they know town is going to do it for them.
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On April 05 2013 15:50 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:46 geript wrote:
@VE Why are you so quiet? I'm not used to you being so behind the scenes instead of being spammy. I would like to get a read on you. I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip. Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that. I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess....
Err what?
How is that in any way a scumslip :o
You're seeing things that aren't there, IMO lol.
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On April 05 2013 15:57 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:52 Keirathi wrote:On April 05 2013 15:50 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 15:46 geript wrote:
@VE Why are you so quiet? I'm not used to you being so behind the scenes instead of being spammy. I would like to get a read on you. I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip. Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that. I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess.... Err what? How is that in any way a scumslip :o You're seeing things that aren't there, IMO lol. Perhaps, the only reason I dont think its a slip is because its a common saying; and perhaps used in the wrong context. It still does infer he is aware VE is active in a QT.
You mean imply, not infer. You inferred based on his implication But I digress...
I don't even think it implies that. I mean, I guess I can see how you can read it and think that, but in context the implication to me is that VE is not being out in the open with his thoughts, and instead of hiding in the background without particularly doing anything.
Which I can agree with, but I don't think it really means anything yet.
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On April 05 2013 16:10 Mocsta wrote:
The whole question is voided now, but it was never a big deal in the first place. <3
Which brings me to another question: Why even bring it up then? Like, what purpose did it serve, if you already didn't think it was a scumslip?
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I think it's the opposite of how we become tunneled :o People who tunnel generally see one thing they think is scummy and confirmation bias into everything being scummy. Not important conversation though.
Anyways, I'm going to sleep. G'nite.
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Mornin'.
@austin:
To start with, I wasn't the one that proposed the policy. Oats was. I just modified it to be more appropriate. But I digress...
You and I have the same end goal: stop people from using public vigs willy-nilly. Do I have any illusions that saying "I will policy lynch anyone who shoots a townie" will stop people? Not most people. But you shouldn't honestly think that saying "pretty please don't shoot" will stop anyone either. People gon' do what people gon' do.
I just think its better to be forceful about it to at least make scum have to seriously think hard about picking America.
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On April 06 2013 02:19 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways, I'm not against using KP.
Right now there are people you don't want to shoot at all basically (town reads or active people), and then guys you are free to shoot.
I wouldn't mind everybody shooting the guys you are free to shoot and leave the guys you don't shoot alive, either single handily winning us the game, or putting us very very closer to doing so.
For instance, anybody is free to shoot Caller if he plays like this until N1. You can figure out the rest of that list, you guys are not dumb.
D1 will give people a better idea of where to go and stuff. Also it'd be chaos to enforce
So your advice is "townies kill of bad players, while scum kill off the good ones"?
I don't even....
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On April 06 2013 02:43 gonzaw wrote:
If we just play "well" there'll be no problems, thus being unnecessary to enforce any policy (which would be un-enforceable).
This is part of the problem. I've just stopped expecting people to play 'well' when given KP at their disposal.
Hell, you were in Themed Mini. I know you were scum, so it worked out for you fine, but look at all the KP roles town had compared to the amount of protection/investigation roles they had. That game went HORRIBLY for town because of it. We even had this discussion in post-game :o
And you're right, if someone picks Vigilante and shoots a townie, we have no way to even know who the shot came from to enforce a policy. But I was specifically talking about a role like America where the shot is 100% public knowledge.
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On April 06 2013 02:57 Caller wrote:
Someone asked me why I FOS Keirathi a while back. I'll tell you why. Look at his post history. It's all posts of "being helpful" and "discussing the format" and "lightly criticizing one of these bullshit plans." All typical red-as-fuck mafia scumbaggery. It was shit like that that made me shoot GMarshal Night 0 (whom was a mafia roleblocker that time). And don't forget that since nobody has a role yet, there's absolutely no reason for anybody to be acting like a blue, because there aren't any blues! So if they're fishy and scummy and CLEARLY NOT BLUE, what does this mean? I"ll say it. Keirathi is fucking scum.
Rofl, okay Caller.
And how, exactly, is that different from what a townie would do? Are townies never helpful? Do townies not discuss the setup? Do townies not criticize bullshit plans?
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On April 06 2013 03:03 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 03:00 Keirathi wrote:On April 06 2013 02:57 Caller wrote:
Someone asked me why I FOS Keirathi a while back. I'll tell you why. Look at his post history. It's all posts of "being helpful" and "discussing the format" and "lightly criticizing one of these bullshit plans." All typical red-as-fuck mafia scumbaggery. It was shit like that that made me shoot GMarshal Night 0 (whom was a mafia roleblocker that time). And don't forget that since nobody has a role yet, there's absolutely no reason for anybody to be acting like a blue, because there aren't any blues! So if they're fishy and scummy and CLEARLY NOT BLUE, what does this mean? I"ll say it. Keirathi is fucking scum.
Rofl, okay Caller. And how, exactly, is that different from what a townie would do? Are townies never helpful? Do townies not discuss the setup? Do townies not criticize bullshit plans? they do, but they also scumhunt. you haven't even tried to scumhunt. Townies especially don't just pontificate about the setup and try to "win arguments" like your post history shows. due to laziness i'm would rather not bother dissecting it on a case by case basis for the proles, but i will if i have to.
You are right about one thing in this paragraph. I haven't been scumhunting (except for calling rayn out a bit). But, policy talk is the easiest thing in the world for mafia to participate in. Hell, they don't even have to have opinions. But really, over half of the thread hasn't been scumhunting, so why me and not, say, Palmar? deconduo? VE? I can keep listing people, but this conversation is pointless.
Where have been trying to "win arguments" though? Because that is the complete opposite of what I have been doing. I've been trying to make my opinion heard, but I haven't been forcing my opinion anywhere.
So yea, you're case basically boils down to "he's being too nice". Okay then.
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On April 06 2013 03:26 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 03:22 Keirathi wrote:On April 06 2013 03:03 Caller wrote:On April 06 2013 03:00 Keirathi wrote:On April 06 2013 02:57 Caller wrote:
Someone asked me why I FOS Keirathi a while back. I'll tell you why. Look at his post history. It's all posts of "being helpful" and "discussing the format" and "lightly criticizing one of these bullshit plans." All typical red-as-fuck mafia scumbaggery. It was shit like that that made me shoot GMarshal Night 0 (whom was a mafia roleblocker that time). And don't forget that since nobody has a role yet, there's absolutely no reason for anybody to be acting like a blue, because there aren't any blues! So if they're fishy and scummy and CLEARLY NOT BLUE, what does this mean? I"ll say it. Keirathi is fucking scum.
Rofl, okay Caller. And how, exactly, is that different from what a townie would do? Are townies never helpful? Do townies not discuss the setup? Do townies not criticize bullshit plans? they do, but they also scumhunt. you haven't even tried to scumhunt. Townies especially don't just pontificate about the setup and try to "win arguments" like your post history shows. due to laziness i'm would rather not bother dissecting it on a case by case basis for the proles, but i will if i have to. You are right about one thing in this paragraph. I haven't been scumhunting (except for calling rayn out a bit). But, policy talk is the easiest thing in the world for mafia to participate in. Hell, they don't even have to have opinions. But really, over half of the thread hasn't been scumhunting, so why me and not, say, Palmar? deconduo? VE? I can keep listing people, but this conversation is pointless. Where have been trying to "win arguments" though? Because that is the complete opposite of what I have been doing. I've been trying to make my opinion heard, but I haven't been forcing my opinion anywhere.So yea, you're case basically boils down to "he's being too nice". Okay then. That bolded sentence is the definition of textbook mafia early play. The rest of your argument isn't even one, you basically admit all my points are right, you ad hominem a few, and you ask what about x, y, and z. unfortunately, x, y, and z haven't done all the things you've done together. get'em, etc.
That doesn't make sense. YOU were the one that claimed I was trying to win arguments.
Show me where.
Quit backtracking.
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Obvious does that as either alignment.
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On April 06 2013 03:47 gonzaw wrote:
I'm reading his filter from RED and I don't get the same feeling there as I do here. He seems more "noob" this game than on that one.
Plus I checked his profile and the only game he's been scum was in the hydra game with VE and he barely posted there at all.
Feel free to provide counterexamples
Well that's a different point entirely. I was just saying that he posts non-consequential fluff even as town.
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@Caller:
You missed the point. You called me scum for TRYING TO WIN ARGUMENTS. Then I say I wasn't trying to win arguments, I was just making my opinions known, and you call me scum for NOT TRYING TO WIN ARGUMENTS.
How can I be scum for both of those?
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EBWOP: Also, you're sitll not showing how I was trying to win arguments. Which is what you called me scum for. Just making this up as you go, eh?
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On April 06 2013 03:56 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 03:52 Keirathi wrote:
@Caller:
You missed the point. You called me scum for TRYING TO WIN ARGUMENTS. Then I say I wasn't trying to win arguments, I was just making my opinions known, and you call me scum for NOT TRYING TO WIN ARGUMENTS.
How can I be scum for both of those? because it was a bloody trick, the very fact that you jumped on the intentionally shitty argument that I laid while simultaneously ignoring or ad homineming the far more damning points makes it obvious that you're not town, you're just a mafia trying to poke holes in an argument you think has no weight because its not even day 1 yet. Well, it has weight. Not as heavy as Palmar, but still. An actual mafia tactic is to win points in debates by taking the right side or by simply participating. At the same time, mafia do not want to seem closed minded so they appeal to both sides of an argument, or spread themselves out onto both sides of an argument, without trying to piss anybody off. Which apparently, I have accomplished.
Oh, so it was all a brilliantly planned trap?
Got it.
Carry on.
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Anyways, I'll tell you why I brushed off your "he's not scumhunting" accusations: because I literally get accused of the same thing in day one of every game ever. It stopped being something that worried me a long time ago. I'll scumhunt when I have things that I think are relevant to scumhunt on, and not before. I've never been mislynched, but if you feel the need to pull a day vig role and day vig me then you just go ahead.
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EPT
