EPTOn March 29 2013 02:15 marvellosity wrote:
EBWOP *stupid, sustained argument with me
EBWOP *stupid, sustained argument with me
Talking about that... what do you think of OO?
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Acrofales
Spain17992 Posts
Talking about that... what do you think of OO? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:19 Acrofales wrote: Talking about that... what do you think of OO? I don't know at the moment, I need to read him closer. My broad brush opinion is that he's become more involved as time goes on and thus more likely town, but I haven't read his arguments that he's made very closely at all, tbh. If I'm alive tomorrow (or actually later, when I'm home I guess) I will. My last note on him is "leave until tomorrow". | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I need to re-look at reyn/prplhz/OO I guess, but they're all getting more useful as the game goes on, and not less useful, so I don't know where that will take me. Anyway marv, I'm interested to hear you follow up on this before the deadline. Also, why isn't Oats on that list? I view OO more townie than him right now. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:23 Hapahauli wrote: Anyway marv, I'm interested to hear you follow up on this before the deadline. Also, why isn't Oats on that list? I view OO more townie than him right now. It's not going to happen, like I mentioned yesterday I have a chess match to complete this evening so the time I'd usually have is munched away. I've had Oats as fairly strongly town all game. In addition, and this is probably a terrible terrible reason, but Palmar said he was very unlikely to be mafia, and if Palmar is town I trust that judgement, and if he's mafia I don't think he'd say such a thing about his scumbuddy. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:25 marvellosity wrote: It's not going to happen, like I mentioned yesterday I have a chess match to complete this evening so the time I'd usually have is munched away. I've had Oats as fairly strongly town all game. In addition, and this is probably a terrible terrible reason, but Palmar said he was very unlikely to be mafia, and if Palmar is town I trust that judgement, and if he's mafia I don't think he'd say such a thing about his scumbuddy. Ange777 in Rockband. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Do your research, Ange went from null to somewhat scummy. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:29 marvellosity wrote: Do your research, Ange went from null to somewhat scummy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=60#1195 I played in that game ya know. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:33 Hapahauli wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=60#1195 I played in that game ya know. Huh, you're right. Honestly I didn't get that far in the filter. These are the posts I picked out: On September 18 2012 23:05 Palmar wrote: ok I've caught up. Will read more attentively later, some of you guys textwall like bosses. Here's my current idea of the thread. I will deny! iamperfection Hapahauli blazinghand Palmar Junglers Zephirdd Mementoss bluelightz prplhz Ange777 mkfuba07 5 carries on your team Marvellosity HiroPro austinmcc On September 20 2012 19:06 Palmar wrote: For the record, I don't think mementoss is scum. I agree with almost everything said in this post, aside from lynching me. But it's fine, I don't intend for this game to reach lylo. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:39 Hapahauli wrote: I mean of course the circumstances are different, but Palmar calling Oats town is a pretty terrible reason to think he's town. I think Palmar also defended a scum Blazinghand in Bureaucracy Mafia. Any other reasons for the Oats town-read? I already said it was pretty terrible, so you don't need to tell me. I'm lazy so I'm just gonna copy-paste what I have on Oats. I quite like his mostly unexplained vote on s&b to start with - shows that he didn't feel the need to justify it like mafia would. Calls Palmar a prick. I like that. Stands his ground, makes me smile. Yeah I see no reason he's mafia at all really. Pushes a really influential player in Palmar, not sure he'd be so ballsy as mafia. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On March 28 2013 20:07 marvellosity wrote: Nope, because I didn't have to include it in my case if I were 'fabricating' it, as it doesn't add anything in particular. But you WERE fabricating it. And you did include it. You're right, it doesn't add anything, though. Which in itself is the problem. I've never seen you use something so objectively NOT alignment indicative to try to strengthen a case. And even worse, you threw it in while knowing that I use silly emoticons all the time in casual conversation, yet refused to even check my filters from the database to see if I used them as scum/town. I mean, you know how to use the database, since you talked about looking through Grack and sinani's games. Do you just not know how to ctrl+f? I don't believe that. I believe you were just lazy and lazy marv != town marv. K, finishing reading what I missed while sleeping. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:46 Keirathi wrote: Mornin', all. But you WERE fabricating it. And you did include it. You're right, it doesn't add anything, though. Which in itself is the problem. I've never seen you use something so objectively NOT alignment indicative to try to strengthen a case. And even worse, you threw it in while knowing that I use silly emoticons all the time in casual conversation, yet refused to even check my filters from the database to see if I used them as scum/town. I mean, you know how to use the database, since you talked about looking through Grack and sinani's games. Do you just not know how to ctrl+f? I don't believe that. I believe you were just lazy and lazy marv != town marv. K, finishing reading what I missed while sleeping. You're blowing something completely irrelevant totally out of proportion (much like the :o, delicious irony). Like, that was my introduction to what I thought about you (ok, it was faulty). It had next to zero bearing on the case in general. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On March 29 2013 02:58 marvellosity wrote: You're blowing something completely irrelevant totally out of proportion (much like the :o, delicious irony). Like, that was my introduction to what I thought about you (ok, it was faulty). It had next to zero bearing on the case in general. "Next" to zero. So, it had some bearing. I don't think that you can honestly think that me using emoticons is in anyway scummy, and I don't think that town you puts points into cases that you don't truly believe in. But whatevs, I'll drop it. It does no good to argue with you about it. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17992 Posts
My main problems with OO are: 1. His inconsistent scumhunting. He just sort of mentions people in passing, without following up on anything except really Grack.
I currently have no clue who he thinks is scum. He made quite a big case on me, but I'm not even sure he's calling me scum. They all seem very tenuous. The only person he has taken a conclusive stand on was Grack. Everything else is really really vague as if he's afraid of having an opinion. This insecurity is further evidenced by the number of times that he asks people to tell him what they think about his stuff. The problem is that I don't know OO at all well. I read his meta and none of the games he played seem at all similar. I don't get the same insecure feeling from his town games at all, but his scum game has a different feel too. 2. Odd phrases that shouldn't be in a townies vocabulary: we've talked about "planting the seed" which makes it seem like OO was more concerned with looking like he was consistent in his reads than actually getting his read out there. However, we can add the whole thing where he talks about "targets of opportunity" + Show Spoiler + On March 28 2013 20:56 ObviousOne wrote: K I have a giant notepad document filled with quotes and I'm not going to paste them here as is so I'll try to distill some information from it. Notable mentions of Nisani (chronologically if I copy/pasted correctly) + Show Spoiler [Hapa] + On March 26 2013 12:12 Hapahauli wrote: @ Nisani Where'd ya go? You offered us two pointless comments then dropped out of the thread: What are your thoughts on some of the suspicions in the thread so far? Particularly on Grack and prplhz? + Show Spoiler [Acro familiarity with Nisani's p…] + On March 26 2013 12:20 Acrofales wrote: Nisani is lurking and Dandel is spamming. Amazing. Who woulda thunk that would happen. + Show Spoiler [Acro votes] + On March 26 2013 14:08 Acrofales wrote: You are terrible. I made a lot of sense in the beginning of the game. My VERY FIRST serious post was my opinion on OO's claim. The rest of my filter has my opinion on DI, prplhz and Marv. Off the top of my head. Probably anything else that has been discussed in the thread too. This game gonna be easy. Lynch the liar! ##vote Nisani201 + Show Spoiler [Acro] + On March 27 2013 02:38 Acrofales wrote: Some updates. I like Smurf's more recent participation. Pressure on Cora feels good. Still don't like his stance on DI, and it depends on how good a player Smurf is, whether this is something that can be excused, or is an obvious scumtell. I want to know who he is. Raynpelikoneet does not look particularly scummy to me. There are some posts I don't like: + Show Spoiler [this one] + On March 26 2013 10:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: S&B: I never said i wasn't serious with my vote. I asked marv why does he assume i am serious. Something he also failed to answer. the way he phrased the initial question, he inherently claimed he wasn't actually very serious. A vague answer that feels like it's part of a larger backpedal regarding prplhz. However, having a very serious vote a few hours into D1 is an oxymoron. + Show Spoiler [and this one] + On March 26 2013 10:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: The problem with meta in this prplhz case is that it's the easiest thing in the world to fake. Even the dumbest idiot could probably fake their "town meta" by posting some general advice as their first post. Other than that part, you are right. However, neither of these are particularly concerning... and while his case on OO was somewhat OMGUS, I think he picked on some good points and OO's case really was just a bad association case based on unflipped players. Mostly, however, I like that he does not seem concerned to speak his mind or share his reads, and I don't get the feeling that he is just throwing suspicion around to see where it sticks. In closing: he's not a scumspect at the moment. I'm not really liking what I see in Cora's filter. In particular this post: came at a time when I was NOT talking about OO at all (except to answer Oats' stupid question). In fact, I only directly talk about OO in two posts, the rest is all using it as a springboard to analyse OTHER players' reactions to it. At the time, I had specifically singled out two reactions as feeling off: Nisani's and Cora's own. Trying to flip it back just reaks of panicked OMGUS. However, given how Cora was a rather easy mislynch in Personality 2, I am hesitant to just outright call him scum for this behaviour. While I don't agree with his read on Rayn, his posts about it are reasonable and he seems forthcoming with his opinion. My main scumspect is still Nisani. His case was a pack of lies and he has disappeared from the thread again. Lynch him. Here is his case on me: My first few posts were where I gave my opinion about OO's claim. How can those be my most sensible posts when he has clearly not even read them properly?! It's because he is scum and needed to contribute, so jumped on something without thinking it through, that's why. ##revote Nisani201 for emphasis. + Show Spoiler [Obvious] + On March 27 2013 03:41 ObviousOne wrote: Acro, I think your case on Nisani has some merit, though it may have roots in his relative inactivity up to this point. Do you have a second scum read? We seem to agree on Rayn looking town for now so I will ask for your opinion on Oatsmaster. Is Oats town or scum to you? + Show Spoiler [Grackaroni] + On March 27 2013 04:27 Grackaroni wrote: lol how many people have given multiple scum reads so far. I find it ridiculous that I'm still some major suspect because I made 3 posts without stances at the start of the game. I think Nisani and Sinani are both people to look into and both could be scum as well. Nisani wrote a case about acro and seemed to ignore all of the other things that Acro has done in the thread and just said he's too focused on you not reading your role pm. Once again I don't like Sinani's original contribution and he hasn't added anything since then. + Show Spoiler [Sinani] + On March 27 2013 04:32 sinani206 wrote: How can you say such a huge blanket statement. It's day 1, what evidence do you have that Smurf is for sure town? + Show Spoiler [Hapa again] + On March 27 2013 06:09 Hapahauli wrote: Can you outline the reasons for Acro being scum? All I see is an active townie. He's contributed a ton this game. It seemed like you were backing off Acro last night too... ... so I'm not sure how you're so confident in your read. + Show Spoiler [More hapa] + On March 27 2013 06:58 Hapahauli wrote: @ Nisani Why do you "want to believe" that Palmar is scum? If you think he's scum, then go after him. Furthermore, I don't understand why you think the Grack case is bad. These are your stated reasons: ...and they're pretty inadequate. I especially don't understand the bolded segment. The Grack case is primarily based on precisely that - that his reactions are completely objective, ungenuine, and purposeless in the context of the thread. How are his reactions not scummy? Furthermore, what in his filter to you suggests that he's town? + Show Spoiler [Acro] + On March 27 2013 07:10 Acrofales wrote: Fine. I nominate Nisani to be shot, hanged, drawn and quartered. After that we can burn him and end it all with a good old-fashioned drowning. I suggest sensibe people get their vote on him stat. Currently looking back into Smurf given the new insights into who he is and whether he could actually do all that crap as town, and then will look into Grackaroni. I was not convinced by the cases and didn't see anything particularly scummy about him, but his continued absense isn't doing him any favours. Deadline is still like 20 hours away, right? So plenty of time. + Show Spoiler [Sinani] + On March 27 2013 15:54 sinani206 wrote: OK, Nisani is scum. He's been using soft reads all game to make it look like he's contributing, saying people "look" or "feel" some way or another. He uses words like "possible" and "likely", phrases like "not really." Asking others useless questions to fill up his posts. Nisani is not acting as a townie should ask. He is hesitant and incomplete in his "analysis" and has been trying to deter discussion (here and here). Not to mention voting prplhz with no reasoning and only 2 sentences mentioning him, asking for a vote count before voting. Nisani's play is not townlike. There are no third parties. Therefore he is scum. So just looking at the list of names there, a few of them come up several times. Let's look at their reasons for mentioning Nisani. Hapa filter - Unsatisfied with Nisani's contributions in the early game - Did not like Nisani's lack of confidence his scum read on Acro - More about contribution / Nisani's wanting to believe that Palmar is scum Hapa's interactions with Nisani look town motivated to me. He looks like the first to bring up anything negative towards Nisani. Acro filter - Mentions Nisani is lurking (and doesn't mention if it's suspicious) - Rather blatant OMGUS vote on Nisani - Accusation that Nisani is feigning contribution, emphasizes vote - Brings up Nisani again after my call to start the consolidation process Acro's intentions are rather clear. They also seem to match Sinani's below. Why Nisani in particular? Was it because Nisani was talking about him being scummy? That's what it looks like to me but I might be wrong, I'm getting tired trying to finish this before I sleep. Sinani filter - Attacks Nisani for Nisani's defense of ISH - Claims Nisani has given nothing but soft-reads and feigned contribution More attacks for feigning contribution, lines up with Acro's read. Okay, so Nisani in retrospect was clearly making himself an easy target, and was not quite up to the task of providing us with multiple reads. He was under attack directly or indirectly by several people from nearly the beginning of the game based on his comments regarding the conversation about my Role PM post. I didn't see any point at which anyone was like "well, he looks like a tilted town" or anything like that in my re-read but I may have missed it. One of the possible reasons I can see this being the case is that he seems to have been brought to attention by Hapa. For the most part I've had a town read on Hapa the whole game and I'm sure I'm not the only one so I can see how it would lend itself to becoming part of "thread sentiment." The further tunneling by Acro kept Nisani on the back foot. Even I had a few words in regarding the situation (agreeing with Acro's case). Overall, the lynch happened rather easily, but I think everyone shares the blame on that. Nisani's play did not look like strong town play. We didn't question whether or not he seemed capable of coming up with something new under pressure. The most questionable candidate of the three people who addressed Nisani is Acro because it essentially boils down to OMGUS. Acro insisted multiple times that Nisani was scum. But that could just be Acro being Acro, I don't know him. I'm just looking at thread action here. Follow up questions that I really hope someone else will take a look at: - Were these tunnels / solitary reads / the only prudent cases made the the above players or were they actively seeking out more than one target for Day 1? - What other "targets of opportunity" did these players pass up in favor of Nisani? Was there any motivation to NOT vote for certain players who were exhibiting similar characteristics? (i.e. prplhz) - Feel free to add your own thoughts... The focus just seems really strange in his questions. Why is he worried about "other targets of opportunity"? What possible town motivation is there for asking this question in the first place? It is a guaranteed WIFOM generator and utterly pointless, but moreover, this whole post shows that OO has spent a fair bit of time thinking about what juicy lynchbait targets could have been lynched instead of Nisani (or more malevolently: can be lynched now that Nisani is dead). This is not scumhunting, in fact it is the direct opposite of actual scumhunting, and not a townie mindset at all. 3. Remarkable lack of Marv in the list of "remarkable events surrounding Nisani". For some reason he includes Hapa's posts about Nisani, but skips Marv, who definitely was on the Nisani wagon early, until he derailed it himself. Only I pushed it harder (and at the end Sinani) and Hapa never pushed it at all. It seems like a rather bad summary of the thread events. But this is a pretty minor point, because I don't really see a scum motivation for doing this except through rather painful association cases. Nevertheless, I don't see only bad things in OO's filter: 1. Sheer activity. In Hydra, he and VE combined managed to post 3 pages between the two of them before they were killed. Here OO has 5 pages of filter all by himself. 2. Effort. Some of the posts, including the one I quoted with the "targets of opportunity" indicate a real effort, even if it is misguided. The points against me were coherent, albeit wrong, and I can see a townie going through the thread and picking up on these things. I don't think OO is a very good lynch for tomorrow, because Smurf is surer scum, but I am far from convinced that OO ISN'T scum. | ||
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InsertSmurfHere
288 Posts
That's easy to fix. More coming after the dealine, in 11 hours from now. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
OO has been putting more effort than I'd expect from the scum-version of him. Also his exchange with me towards the end of the lynch deadline felt very townie: On March 28 2013 06:51 ObviousOne wrote: Then you can have your beef and eat it, too. Regarding Marv He feels better. I liked his reads and observations overall. Nothing seems forced, and he brought up a really good point about SnB (Chrono Trigger Mafia) that I hadn't thought of. I'm not convinced he's town namely because of his relative passivity. He seems to have an excuse for it though, so w/e. Keep an eye on him, but definitely not a lynch candidate for tomorrow. @ Yamato We'll likely be a man down by the time you get back to making your cases. Give us your scum suspects and the "cliff-notes" version of your reads. Given your air of confidence, this will probably take you all of 5-10 minutes. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On March 29 2013 03:22 Hapahauli wrote: Regarding Marv He feels better. I liked his reads and observations overall. Nothing seems forced, and he brought up a really good point about SnB (Chrono Trigger Mafia) that I hadn't thought of. I'm not convinced he's town namely because of his relative passivity. He seems to have an excuse for it though, so w/e. Keep an eye on him, but definitely not a lynch candidate for tomorrow. I was going to save this for deadline, but I'm starting to have some doubts now too, so talk about him with me now. My biggest problem with marv is that he ostensibly had Smurf in his top scum reads for the entirety of day 1 (well, since page 18?ish). But never did anything to push him. At all. He put much more effort into pushing Nisani, but went so far as saying that the lynch should be between Smurf and Nisani (which was before I was #1 guaranteed mafia out of nowhere). But still, he did nothing at all to push Smurf, and only focused on Nisani. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On March 29 2013 03:28 Keirathi wrote: I was going to save this for deadline, but I'm starting to have some doubts now too, so talk about him with me now. My biggest problem with marv is that he ostensibly had Smurf in his top scum reads for the entirety of day 1 (well, since page 18?ish). But never did anything to push him. At all. He put much more effort into pushing Nisani, but went so far as saying that the lynch should be between Smurf and Nisani (which was before I was #1 guaranteed mafia out of nowhere). But still, he did nothing at all to push Smurf, and only focused on Nisani. Well for the record, marv is null, and mayyyyybe slightly-town to me. The passivity really gets to me, but otherwise his play has been aiiiiight. No one really pushed Smurf yesterday. I mean its certainly points against marv, but that's not a compelling reason to lynch him. Thing with marv right now is that there are three people I want to see dead far before him (Yamato, SnB, Sinani), and I've been pleased by marv's contributions to each of their cases. And the best way to figure out if marv is scum or not is to see some of those guys flip. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On March 28 2013 21:22 Palmar wrote: I'm almost always wrong on my initial day 1 read, which is why I always revise the read before lynchtime. As for rayn, I don't think he's town. I liked his initial contributions but I feel some of the things he said since have been pretty strange. I will elaborate later. Then again, I don't think he's our number 1 scum lynch for tomorrow. I still haven't decided where I want to take that. So, Palmar thinks rayn is scum, but doesn't want to lynch him. Instead he wants to lynch someone he hasn't even picked out yet? How does that make sense? | ||
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