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On March 21 2013 05:33 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 05:28 VisceraEyes wrote: Because I wasn't sure I would survive until D2 DYH. In spite of being a Vet I don't know how much KP scum have, I'm not sure if being roleblocked affects anything, etc and I felt like the WF thing was important. Again, this answer doesn't quite add up. If you have the mentality that you might die, then you write up the information and the corresponding case and you post it right before the deadline. If you already think you might die, you don't suddenly push a case that might make you an even more likely target.
this too.
Also, if I were a vet I personally wouldn't give a fuck about dying, given that doublestacks are pretty rare. The "I wasn't sure if I'd live" argument is pretty weak from a town-VE perspective.
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On March 21 2013 11:45 sciberbia wrote: VE I don't think VE is scum. I think VE might be third party (either now or by tonight). I don't know if said third party is worth our time disposing of. Hence I don't like voting for VE.
This line of thinking is really stupid.
Assuming you are town, you will optimally lynch ANY confirmed or highly probable non-town player immediately. This is not a kingmaker scenario (in which case it would not matter who you lynched anyway). Our goal is to kill all non-town. Do not make assumptions about the setup. Not lynching VE despite thinking he is third party is simply antitown and goes against our wincondition.
I do think we should discuss other targets, but lynching VE is priority #1.
On March 21 2013 11:47 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm making a case on Wiggles. It's irrefutable I can assure you.
This is the time. OUR FREEDOM IS AT HAND!!!
Sounds like fabrication to me, given that the tone of this post indicates VE wanting to simply live, and having already assumed Wiggles is scum in order to attack him.
If VE truly were town I would expect him to attack his top 3 "scumreads" from earlier, which included Wade, myself, and Coagulation. Instead, he chooses Wiggles, whom he called town on day 1, only to mysteriously change his stance. VE seemed to be cognizant of this apparent discrepancy, since he found the need to say this:
On March 20 2013 07:38 VisceraEyes wrote: For the record, I was scum on Wiggles, I just wasn't willing to lynch him today until that post. But that post shows me that he doesn't care at all about finding scum .
which doesn't make much sense. At the very least his change of stance regarding Wade in light of greymist's flip can be justified according to balance concerns, but this change of stance makes no sense at all.
Ignoring VE, I think we should lynch TranceStorm tomorrow. He still has done nothing and despite his statement that he would lurk less he is still not around.
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Vivax what do you think of TranceStorm as a lynch?
I think he's more likely to be scum than glurio. I haven't looked too closely into the other players, but from memory I can't recall anything significant that any of them have done. They all are lurkers to me.
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On March 21 2013 12:03 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 11:54 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 21 2013 11:45 sciberbia wrote: VE I don't think VE is scum. I think VE might be third party (either now or by tonight). I don't know if said third party is worth our time disposing of. Hence I don't like voting for VE. This line of thinking is really stupid. Assuming you are town, you will optimally lynch ANY confirmed or highly probable non-town player immediately. This is not a kingmaker scenario (in which case it would not matter who you lynched anyway). Our goal is to kill all non-town. Do not make assumptions about the setup. Not lynching VE despite thinking he is third party is simply antitown and goes against our wincondition. Our win condition is not to remove all non-town. It is to remove all threats to the town. Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 15:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote:TO CLARIFY
If you are green or blue your win condition is to remove all threats to the town, the same as it always is. You are the one making an assumption by assuming that the mirror is a threat to the town. I see no good evidence of this. For one thing, he does not seem to have KP. This is something that irks me about closed setups though. You can help your alignment to win by knowing what kinds of setups the host would be likely to make. I don't know anything about DrH but I see no in-thread evidence that the mirror is a threat to us.
what convoluted world do you live in that a third party is "not a threat" to town?
This is a normal game, anything not green or blue needs to be killed before the town can win.
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also, how can you justify letting VE live when clearly he doesn't care about actually finding/killing scum?
He's only concerned with living/not getting lynched. To this end, notice how his "reads" have changed. They've varied radically at every passing moment. At some point he was convinced DarthPunk was scum, that wiggles was town, then that Wade+me+Coag are scum, then he switched to wanting Wiggles dead.
How can anyone reasonably say that VE is interested in the same things town is interested in? The best evidence we have points to the conclusion that he is not, and so he should die.
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I agree with Coagulation, but I still think VE is scum.
I saw the lynch just now, but I'm really confused. How the hell did Ace get lynched over VE? Even Wiggles/GK would have been better lynches, but seriously??
VE needs to die. He's done absolutely nothing this game except point fingers, contradict himself, and piss on the thread. At no point have I thought to myself, "Wow, I like VE's thoughts on so and so." At no point have I thought to myself, "I really hope VE gets protected by a medic tonight." At no point have I thought to myself, "Wow, VE really is an asset to town."
Normally I would think VE is an asset to town, even when sometimes he has the propensity to be a drama queen. This game his drama has been almost intentionally destructive. Yesterday he went from suspecting myself/Wade/Coag to attacking Wiggles when it suited his convenience (when he was vote leader.) When Wiggles made a case on Ace that made him look better, VE took the opportunity to go "aha! I wanted to kill Ace, let's do it!" and what's shocking is that the rest of the Ace voters jumped with him.
Recall, too: VE accused Ace of derailing the Wiggles wagon.
Someone please explain to me how this makes sense from a VE town perspective.
Pathetic, really.
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On March 22 2013 06:22 VisceraEyes wrote: *yawn* look at all the scum trying to discredit me. Pathetic really.
rofl, I'm scum for pointing out that you have no interest in helping town this game?
You have no credit to begin with. You've been utterly antitown this entire game.
On day 1 you call Wiggles town, you call BH town, only to out him as a mason later. You lie about being recruited by the mirror (or you have been recruited and you're lying about lying) You take a convenient opportunity post lynch to push the blame onto the originator of the day 1 wagon (me) despite not doing anything yourself to stop it. Really nice way to set up mislynches as scum.
On day 2 you don't push your main targets, only get into a pissing contest with BH. AND to top it all off you go from Wiggles = town to Wiggles = scum when it conveniently suits you, only to suddenly turn around when Wiggles provides a case on Ace, a player you never really mentioned, and then you jump on the Ace wagon!
So what exactly am I discrediting here? You can't change the facts.
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if you are town, I am trying to help you right now.
I know that as town you are better than this. So, either change your game and help me find scum ASAP or I will get you lynched tomorrow.
I just hope I will live to be able to keep you in check.
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On March 22 2013 06:32 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:27 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 22 2013 06:22 VisceraEyes wrote: *yawn* look at all the scum trying to discredit me. Pathetic really. rofl, I'm scum for pointing out that you have no interest in helping town this game? You have no credit to begin with. You've been utterly antitown this entire game. On day 1 you call Wiggles town, you call BH town, only to out him as a mason later. You lie about being recruited by the mirror (or you have been recruited and you're lying about lying) You take a convenient opportunity post lynch to push the blame onto the originator of the day 1 wagon (me) despite not doing anything yourself to stop it. Really nice way to set up mislynches as scum. On day 2 you don't push your main targets, only get into a pissing contest with BH. AND to top it all off you go from Wiggles = town to Wiggles = scum when it conveniently suits you, only to suddenly turn around when Wiggles provides a case on Ace, a player you never really mentioned, and then you jump on the Ace wagon! So what exactly am I discrediting here? You can't change the facts. My read going from Wiggles town to Wiggles scum was never "convenient for me". And I'm not "getting into a pissing contest" with BH, I'm explaining why I think he's scum. You didn't even MENTION my case on him, you're just cherrypicking events that suit your argument. I've provided reasoning for all of my scumreads, you're simply ignoring that fact.
I didn't mention your case on him because it's nothing but tunneling him to oblivion.
I hold nothing either of you have said about each other to any sort of regard.
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On March 22 2013 06:35 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:29 RyuSuzaku wrote: if you are town, I am trying to help you right now.
I know that as town you are better than this. So, either change your game and help me find scum ASAP or I will get you lynched tomorrow.
I just hope I will live to be able to keep you in check. Your threat is meaningless. I've resigned to death. That's what you scummy fuckers keep glossing over. I'm DEAD ALREADY because of the shit I pulled yesterday. Rather than niggle me about my play, why don't you explain why my case against WF is wrong? You know, if you're REALLY trying to help me and not just blow smoke up my ass?
it's not my responsibility to get you off a tunnel, given that you have not actually shown particular interest in getting WF lynched.
Creating a huge shitfest with BH is not indicative to me that you actually truly believe he is scum, given that you swapped to two different players (who were both unmentioned/town reads prior to that) with almost no resistance at all. The simpler conclusion is that you are scum, and that's why you don't care who gets lynched. You attack BH, but if you were town and truly thought he were scum I would expect you to actually care about pushing people onto him. Instead, you were far more concerned with living. (and the evidence for this is you wanting to kill Wiggles/Ace)
If you really thought Wiggles was scum, wouldn't you be suspicious of him not being around at all right now/or at important times?
If you really thought BH was scum, why weren't you more concerned about the fact that no one agreed with you?
None of these things make sense from a town perspective. They all make sense from a scum perspective, though.
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On March 22 2013 06:37 VisceraEyes wrote: You can't discredit it as "tunneling into Oblivion" because I've been VERY open to other targets. In FACT. In what way am I "tunneling BH into Oblivion" when I'm simultaneously looking at other candidates? This is a blatant lie and a completely transparent attempt to dodge the issue.
you're not OPEN to targets, you're simply self-centered.
Your only proven interest so far is in saving your own hide.
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On March 22 2013 06:43 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not doing this. I'm not getting drawn into an argument with you. If you think I'm scum then lynch me tomorrow or shoot me tonight if you're able. I don't have time to fuck with you...I've got cases to write.
sure, "cases" that you yourself are not willing to lynch someone over.
Your "case" on BH really was quite useful yesterday, was it not? When ultimately, your vote was on Ace.
It doesn't matter what you say at this point, it is only your actions that define your alignment.
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Something I wanted to speculate a little bit about is this supposed recruiter.
If it exists, a converting mason as third party does not make much sense.
Either VE or the mirror guy is lying about something. I tend to think it is VE.
In a past Dr. H game I believe there was a converting mechanic, I think it was mafia-aligned.
IF there is a recruiting mechanic, I would warrant it being on the scum side, since it makes more sense that way. A third party recruiter makes things very weird because a mafia who gets recruited will have the ability to simply out the mafia team, but a mafia recruiter doesn't have that problem. It's cleaner in that sense. Thus if the mirror really is a recruiter, I would warrant it being a mafia recruiter, and not a third party one.
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On March 22 2013 06:57 cosmicomics wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:17 Vivax wrote: Cosmicomics where did this opinion go? Who will you lynch first tomorrow?
Depends on the night results. His behavior and actions aside, VisceraEyes' vet claim is very strong indicator that he isn't scum if it is true. The key phrase is "if it is true". Because this game has a closed setup, we do not know the nature of scum KP. There is no reason to suppose that it should go by standard precedent (in which I suspect 3 initial KP for scum), and with the flip of a role like Nightmare, I don't find it a stretch to think scum were compensated with other forms of KP. Therefore if the night actions suggest that VisceraEyes' claim is indeed valid, then I swallow my pride because it is more likely that VisceraEyes is playing funky than it is for scum to sacrifice one of their KP to fakeclaim vet, and we get down to lynching goodkarma and unfolding things from there. If not, it's tunnel city because there is nothing aside from his claim that I see as reasonable body of evidence that he is town.
I agree with this.
It is very likely that mafia has more than 1 KP. It's just not balanced for a game of this size (unless the mafia has an infinite use recruiter, but that doesn't sound like it would be within the parameters of a normal game) This is mostly speculation, so whatever.
The only reason I can find at all for considering VE as town is the hit claim. However, his reaction following the daypost is strange in and of itself.
Either scum double stacked Keirathi n1 and VE claimed a hit, or scum shot Keirathi and VE, or scum have 1 normal KP and something to make up for it elsewhere.
So tbh I can't find any good reason to take VE's shot claim at face value.
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hey all, I've had a busy couple days but I should be able to post more now today and tomorrow. I've finished reading: I see we're lynching Wiggles, and I don't agree with this lynch. I think he's town, and his effort today and yesterday indicates that he is town. Also, there is almost no resistance to this lynch, which worries me a lot. I know mocsta and BH are dead now, so that's probably a good reason for the drop in activity, but Wiggles trying to talk to people for reads is very indicative of him being town.
@Wiggles, few questions for you. I'll talk with you if no one else will.
After rereading my strongest scum read is probably DarthPunk. Clearly no one wants to lynch VE, but I would still consider him a good lynch candidate given that he lied about the third party stuff and has repeatedly tried to misrepresent my play. I could very well just be biased, though, and it may not be that far-fetched for a town-VE to resort to such tactics. I don't think BH flipping scum makes him look that much better, particularly because he backed off of BH on day 2. If he really was recruited, I think he might be scum for this.
Here's my thought process: I already outlined earlier why I think, if there is a recruiter, it's almost assuredly a scum recruiter. On day 2, VE instead of going after BH, went after you and Ace. Ace flipped town. I called him out on this very strange change in behavior. I think this may be because VE was recruited by scum, and lied because obviously his wincondition changed. This may also explain the lack of a second scum shot on n1 despite there being 4 kills on n2 (assuming 2 were vigis), and why VE was hesitant to explain RE: the shot he supposedly took.
What do you think of this? I know it's very conspiracy-theory-esque, but I think that there's a good possibility of it being true given how strangely VE changed his reads and focus day 2, or at least attempted to.
This also fits with BH masoning VE day 1.
Can you provide exactly what you believe makes glurio look town to you? I otherwise mostly agree with your reads, particularly with the fact that kitaman so far has simply cruised by without doing anything. I, too, have failed to properly read into the lower activity players, but I simply have not had the time to do so recently.
Lastly, I wanted to address something that I saw VE mention earlier, as it is a blatant misrepresentation and it's something I had already addressed on day 1.
On March 23 2013 06:58 VisceraEyes wrote:This is what I'm referring to with the sandroba read. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 04:41 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 17 2013 04:28 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 16 2013 22:24 sandroba wrote: Geript and sciberbia are both town. BH is trying to emulate his previous behavior. VE is silly. Peashooter I'm leaning town due to the no name claiming warning, other than that the rest of the speculation is pointless at this stage. He seems to be a reasonable fella though, I'm curious about who he is. Keep up the good work gents. On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote: Update: Greymist is suspicious. On March 16 2013 22:40 GreYMisT wrote:On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote: Update: Greymist is suspicious. Do you disagree with the point that I made? On March 16 2013 22:45 sandroba wrote: Don't care about your "points", and neither do you. You seem mafia to me. Last sentence gave you away. I find this interaction forced-there seems to be something off about how sandroba and greymist confront each other here. I wouldn't even call it confronting, really. I dislike sandroba more for the lack of reasoning, but I think it could be possible they are both mafia. ##vote sandroba On March 17 2013 04:32 RyuSuzaku wrote: although it is very suspicious that after being called out by sandroba, greymist made a simple and weak question and then chose not to address sandroba's accusation.
Is sandroba's accusation not worthy of a response?
Greymist was clearly around after, since he corrected the host just a while ago. Both of these quotes came from the guy who wrote the "super convincing case" against GreYMisT. I find this to be highly suspicious - at first he thinks they could both be scum, sandroba has done nothing between these posts, and suddenly sandroba is town worthy of a response? ##FoS Ryu Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote:-snip- On March 19 2013 04:41 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 17 2013 04:28 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 16 2013 22:24 sandroba wrote: Geript and sciberbia are both town. BH is trying to emulate his previous behavior. VE is silly. Peashooter I'm leaning town due to the no name claiming warning, other than that the rest of the speculation is pointless at this stage. He seems to be a reasonable fella though, I'm curious about who he is. Keep up the good work gents. On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote: Update: Greymist is suspicious. On March 16 2013 22:40 GreYMisT wrote:On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote: Update: Greymist is suspicious. Do you disagree with the point that I made? On March 16 2013 22:45 sandroba wrote: Don't care about your "points", and neither do you. You seem mafia to me. Last sentence gave you away. I find this interaction forced-there seems to be something off about how sandroba and greymist confront each other here. I wouldn't even call it confronting, really. I dislike sandroba more for the lack of reasoning, but I think it could be possible they are both mafia. ##vote sandroba On March 17 2013 04:32 RyuSuzaku wrote: although it is very suspicious that after being called out by sandroba, greymist made a simple and weak question and then chose not to address sandroba's accusation.
Is sandroba's accusation not worthy of a response?
Greymist was clearly around after, since he corrected the host just a while ago. Both of these quotes came from the guy who wrote the "super convincing case" against GreYMisT. I find this to be highly suspicious - at first he thinks they could both be scum, sandroba has done nothing between these posts, and suddenly sandroba is town worthy of a response? ##FoS Ryu I never assumed sandro to be town nor did I ever strongly feel him to be scum. I voted him to begin with to pressure him into explaining his reads. He obviously never did because he was afk the entire time. I ignored him after the replacement was announced. IIRC this was before the replacement was announced. I simply was surprised that a player would ignore sandro's accusation, given that he is widely accepted to be a very good town player. I misinterpreted the situation. Why are you cherry picking me? Are you scum? Which is clearly not the case because in addition to actually VOTE the guy, he also had this to say. Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:57 RyuSuzaku wrote: man, Wade Fell and VE are so damn annoying. There were a full 2 pages of nothing but useless one liners. I think you both are scaring off posters and it's troublesome.
sandroba hasn't responded to my vote nor has he done anything since his initial comments. I think he has a very good likelihood of being scum because of this. I'd expect him to at least do something in the meantime, but he's simply lurking. While greymist is still a bit suspicious, he at the very least seems to have put in some effort toward finding scum. His target is not very great IMO, but at the very least he is not still lurking.
My vote on sandroba was a pressure vote. If I don't characterize my position toward someone as "I think they're scum," then the vote becomes meaningless. This post by VE is simply a mischaracterization of something I said, taken literally, out of context of the rest of my posts. It's fairly obvious in the context of the game that I never had a strong read on sandroba. I voted him to get something out of him, but that never happened because he got replaced. Instead, I followed through on greymist.
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also one thing I forgot to mention is that I would expect a town-VE right now to be crying about the lack of activity.
Instead, he seems to be completely content with letting the thread die, which is very uncharacteristic of his town play.
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I agree with you on glurio, I just wanted to see if your reasoning was similar to mine. I recall saying earlier in the game that I'd rather lynch TranceStorm over glurio because glurio seemed to not really care about what others thought of him. Cool. Thanks for the input.
I want to lynch DP today over wiggles. I don't think a scum wiggles has the incentive to be here and answering these questions as openly as wiggles is. I don't see him do this as scum and I don't think we'll get what we want with this lynch. It bothers me that there's no resistance.
If any of you agree with me, then vote to lynch DarthPunk.
##unvote ##vote DarthPunk
+ Show Spoiler +I'd rather lynch VE but I know no one will want to lynch him.
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I'd be down to kill him as well, though I haven't read into him as much as DP.
I find that DP hasn't done as much as he normally does as town.
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On March 24 2013 12:36 DarthPunk wrote:Heya I'm back and reading the thread. Once again there is a really weak push onto me for no reason. Good times. Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 12:21 RyuSuzaku wrote: I find that DP hasn't done as much as he normally does as town. When THIS is the stated reason that someone wants to lynch me when I have a 9 page filter and the person claiming I am not doing enough to be town has a 2 page filter something s wrong.
who cares? Size of filter does not correlate with contribution.
In fact, you look even worse for the fact that you have so many posts yet I can't remember a single one of them, despite at some point reading them all.
On March 24 2013 13:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote: You have my thoughts on every player left in the game as of this morning. Use that however you want. My town reads so far have been decently accurate, I read Vivax/Scib/GK all as town before they flipped. Unfortunately my scum reads have been very off. I feel that town's in a bad position, but it isn't unsalvageable. No one left in the game really feels like they have a strong hold over the course the town is taking, and with a lot of the spammers dead, someone with a good analysis can break the game open again for town. So, it's not like scum has town in a stranglehold where they're controlling all the lynches, it's just that the town's been so mediocre and disorganized that they haven't gotten their shit together enough yet to kill scum. So, while it looks pretty bad, I think if someone actually comes up with something good, they can at least even the game out a little.
@ryu:
Is there anything else you'd like to ask me or have me clarify before I hang?
If you could kill any three players right now, who would you kill?
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On March 24 2013 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 13:45 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 24 2013 12:36 DarthPunk wrote:Heya I'm back and reading the thread. Once again there is a really weak push onto me for no reason. Good times. On March 24 2013 12:21 RyuSuzaku wrote: I find that DP hasn't done as much as he normally does as town. When THIS is the stated reason that someone wants to lynch me when I have a 9 page filter and the person claiming I am not doing enough to be town has a 2 page filter something s wrong. who cares? Size of filter does not correlate with contribution. In fact, you look even worse for the fact that you have so many posts yet I can't remember a single one of them, despite at some point reading them all. On March 24 2013 13:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote: You have my thoughts on every player left in the game as of this morning. Use that however you want. My town reads so far have been decently accurate, I read Vivax/Scib/GK all as town before they flipped. Unfortunately my scum reads have been very off. I feel that town's in a bad position, but it isn't unsalvageable. No one left in the game really feels like they have a strong hold over the course the town is taking, and with a lot of the spammers dead, someone with a good analysis can break the game open again for town. So, it's not like scum has town in a stranglehold where they're controlling all the lynches, it's just that the town's been so mediocre and disorganized that they haven't gotten their shit together enough yet to kill scum. So, while it looks pretty bad, I think if someone actually comes up with something good, they can at least even the game out a little.
@ryu:
Is there anything else you'd like to ask me or have me clarify before I hang? If you could kill any three players right now, who would you kill? The same could be said for your posts with me. Anyway I think it's your problem because many others have had town reads on me.
not really. I can't think of any lynch you've supported, or any of your reads, since you've been a nonfactor this game. Normally that's not a good sign.
I have not necessarily had the time to post as much as I've wanted to, but I've been very clear on my reads, perhaps barring today (since Trance got modkilled/whatever happened to him and my #1 target is pretty much not going to get lynched)
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