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On March 20 2013 12:29 Mocsta wrote:
What I want to know from you
Is what do you think of the people that instantly said "zare must be town, cos Kei flipped town"
I'd take it on a case by case basis. Off the top of my head, I think it's scummy that (iirc) the people who instantly dismissed it haven't been trying to push someone else or really even pressure other people. Especially since in reviewing his filter, nothing has changed in my mind. He's still coming off as unsure and guarded (continued meta inconsistency). I really hated his last post re: stirring up the thread (steering towards negative town atmosphere). The fishing for information re: VE's role name rubbed me the wrong way too (information gathering). It just seems absolutely insane to me that so many people came off as 50/50 on Zare/GM but unwilling/unwanting to keep pressure on him whatsoever. That doesn't match town mentality in my book.
By what do i think; I actually infer:
What is your opinion of the situation? i.e. is it valid reasoning?
&
Is this type of reasoning; alignment indicative? If so, which direction?
Could you clarify what you mean by this exactly? I'm not quite sure I answered your questions but I'm also not sure I got what you were asking.
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Let me look as I don't remember his filter.
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Moc I think the difference is that layabout actually takes a side on GM (looks town, looks like he's scumhunting, looks fine, etc). He likes Vivax's case (sidenote: Vivax your cases have some good points in them but for the most part are fucking unreadable--please pull your shit together) and calls him out for his ridonkulous case on BH based on faked QTs as I remember. He does point to DP saying that we could be on the wrong track. It seems all wifom to me. My guts says that unless there's a scum team of like Zare-DP-Laya then I'm not ready to lynch him (laya). I'm just not willing to draw those associative tells right now especially with none of those flipped especially. I'm not seeing a major difference from LX and this game from Laya but I can't review that filter right now.
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That's a good point Scib re: losing interest. That was one of my main reasons for not liking BH.
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Moc could you explain that logic more clearly. I'm not understanding that post at all.
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On March 20 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 15:06 geript wrote:
Moc could you explain that logic more clearly. I'm not understanding that post at all. I can, if you let me know what you're struggling to follow. Surely its not the "whole thing"
Here's what I mean: your problem with WoS as you summarize it is that in non-newb (non-first game) games he has more balls. You confront him on it. He turns on the 'balls factor.' You unvote based on said 'having balls' town read. Then you excuse the kita case essentially based on experienced player reading an experienced player when you say WoS isn't experienced and thus the whole case is invalid.
There's nothing damning there and I can follow that at least. That said, I can't help but feel that this whole exchange is fishy because it comes off as you telling him how to act, then he acts that way, then you dismiss your vote and the case with a wave of the hand. (Pun intended). I categorize this as "Moc-type logic" but it still feels artificial to me.
The last part is my real issue:
For me, the case is upheld *ONLY IF* WoS hasnt pushed a lynch agenda during Day1. Thats when a sheep vote to me is scummy. From the quick filter browse i did, it looked like he satisfied the above, thus, making the case invalid to me.
You say the case is upheld only if WoS doesn't push a lynch agenda D1. Honestly, I didn't remember a lynch agenda from him D1 and the only points re:lynch are a +1 on DP and a preference on GM over Zare. He even noted his meta reads are crap; I think he also called my meta reads as crap (based on previous games where Zare had at least softclaimed town early). However, I don't remember him commenting on DYH's meta read at all. I don't see a real case push from WoS D1 which makes the case still stand then right?
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@Scib. I don't think so. The two strangest things about it to me are:
1. The "Is this the town I'm going to have to put up with?" comment. It looks like he's internally distanced himself from the town. I want to look at the context and timing of this.
2. WoS giving a town leaning read on Glurio based on meta despite the fact that at multiple points he's said that he's not good at meta reads and doesn't put too much stock in meta reads (or similar comments IIRC).
@Moc I want an answer to my last post before I come back. Fristed.
Either way, I'm done studying for tonight and need some sleep. I'm going to be back after my exams to reread ~8-10 hours prior to lynch and post some more comments then.
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On March 20 2013 16:25 sciberbia wrote:
DP/Mocsta/ whoever is online, I'd like some unbiased opinions here. Am I reading too much into this?
That quote. Sorry it wasn't clear.
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On March 20 2013 22:54 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 22:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
Oh I even crumbed it a little if you guys are smart. (1) This reads to me as: Wild Goose hunt to disrupt scum hunting Day2 (2) Reminds me of what I did in Hydra setting up for the JK claim.. effectively stopped discussion for a good couple hours
Just saw this, but this was my exact reaction.
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Actually, considering the claim I think Zare is making unreasonable.
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First off, 3P is still a threat to town. Perhaps a help too at points, but still a threat. I could absolutely see this as some sort of Virus mechanic. I need to look into the few filters again. This is just absolutely fucking insane right now.
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After diving into the box, I've come up with a few thoughts:
1. Setup Speculation: Let's take the VE hit at face value for a second. This means that mafia KP is equal to 2. Half the number of scum rounded down was the rule for LX and this game is listed as a normal game with a closed setup. So I'd expect that to be the same. The important thing to remember here is that should the 3rd party gain KP this could become very tough for us to manage. Three deaths per night is tough. I could wholly understand a 3P trying to recruit VE so that they could target scum at night effectively as 3P's main goal is to whittle down scum while surviving.
2. From the posted QT:
VisceraEyes
Fuck it I accept. If I'm going to be ignored by most of the thread, I might as well punish them for it.
7
The Mirror
Of course I have countermeasures for survival. I would not have been given such an arduous task if it were not. And it seems like you are perceptive enough to understand what I offer you.
Now we don't have any actual clue how this mechanic works. However, considering the claimed hit AND accepting it seems a bit fishy in the least. We have no way of knowing if VE became immune to hits by accepting. Additionally, there was only 1 kill last night so I think it's safe to assume that the 3P didn't have KP yet. If we assume that VE is now 3P then 16-5-2 is the expected distribution.
In the least, we need to be stacking on VE unless we can find really strong reasons to vote elsewhere. The whole timing of this is just fucking nuts. This feels almost exactly like when Grush fake shot in LX. We need to just stack on VE and get back to actually hunting down mafia because this is absolutely disruptive to the thread right now.
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On March 21 2013 03:52 VisceraEyes wrote:
Dude its a MASON LOG. Why are you raking anything it says into account when speculating the setup. This game is CONFIRMED NORMAL BY HOST. We are not the hosts and I have received no message from the hosts saying my Winconditions has changed. If I had would we be having this conversation?
Ok, let's say you're being honest here. Then what's the point of posting it? Was this a completely faked log in an attempt to out BH? Isn't there any way to do that better than just throw a whole shoehorn into the thread? I'm just not seeing any town motivation behind pulling a stunt like this.
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But you're also not the one doing anything to try and push your read the whole time. It's very hard to see any town motivations behind what you've been doing right now.
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On March 21 2013 01:20 VisceraEyes wrote:
8
VisceraEyes
Fuck it I accept. If I'm going to be ignored by most of the thread, I might as well punish them for it.
7
The Mirror
Of course I have countermeasures for survival. I would not have been given such an arduous task if it were not. And it seems like you are perceptive enough to understand what I offer you.
Do not fret about the delay in notification. That seems to be ... a trend this game. I shall inform you that playing "townie" will be in your best interest, and will hardly conflict with the greater purpose you shall receive. Everything will be made ... crystal clear. A-haha.
You lied to him. How do we not know you're not lying to us? What are your limits on what you're willing to lie about? How do we even fucking know that "The Mirror" isn't just some complete bullshit that you've created just to completely derail the thread?
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I'm sorry for being so hostile. You have to at least understand where I'm coming from though. I absolutely get the 'attention grabbing' aspect of this. I'm going for a walk to mull things over.
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Honestly right now I'm not seeing a point in switching off VE. It's not like this whole problem is going to go away over night. Really all we'd be doing is pushing shit off until later. More than anything else, I want to know if we can actually trust what VE's been saying. He had been bouncing all over and now is "stuck" pushing for wiggles lynch despite wanting to lynch BH. I don't know VE well at all, but the fact that he's been up and down all game but is so almost stolid once this comes out doesn't make me feel any better about him at all.
If I had to pick a second option, then I'd choose Zare. There's no change from D1 in my books.
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Here's my major issue with VE, if I were given the same shot then I would completely be trying to pump the guy for information. I don't see that at all. I can understand trying the 'accept ploy' but there's still too much risk of him being 3P and he's not dropping those cases with enough time for us to pick through them critically. The 'accept ploy' is reasonable but I see no reason not to try to push for a more clear 'offer.' VE is apparently a prolific claimer; the vig claim, this mirror stuff. However the major advantage bringing this stuff forward brings IMO is that if he lasts the day, he likely gets a mostly free pass from town for 2-3 days minimum. That could easily be 8-12 deaths; that's more than enough time to become unlynchable or in the least give him a real upper hand in negotiations. Added to that fact, there was only 1 kill last night. VE claimed a hit and the 3P ability is to have countermeasures for survival. That sounds like an ability to dodge hits. I'm on my phone, but the edits to remove the time stamps make it even fishier in my book. I just don't see he this gets dismissed as 'not a VE' ploy with all the stuff he's apparently pulled.
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EPT
