EPTFirst things first on WoS. In retrospect it makes sense. Kita's case fitting a red could easily have also hit a DT who was laying low. Combine that with his role check and the logical chain of events explaining his check I'm inclined to agree. I admit my bias is a bit obvious on this one because he checked me and I obviously know he is right. One thing I really want to stress about the claim is how everything came together where at a point it would of been complete suicide for mafia to try to continue pushing WoS.
The second and probably more interesting situation is VisceraEyes. His claim was stupid, his actions in the posted QT were also really stupid and scummy. However on that note, his actions are too retarded for such an experienced player to post a log of himself actually becoming third party and committing suicide. The speculation about how and when he could/will become third party is worth talking about but lets face facts. If VE had actually become third party before that conversation was over he would never have posted the logs because under no circumstance could it help his (new) win condition.
Could VE be converted in the night? Possibly. At that point we can deal with him, but I find it very strange that The Mirror would ask if he would want to join as opposed to just directly converting him which would be extremely reckless to do unless he had no choice. It would be better to Mason --> Convert to avoid the exact scenario we are facing where the hidden third party is no longer hidden.
Now let's get down to how all of this implicates Ace as scum. I'm aware there is a post or two on this topic already but I want to outline my own reasoning and explain how I view the case on Ace.
There are a few minor things that bugged me about Ace during his first few posts but what really got me was when he actually starting talking about situations. The way Ace molded arguments and acted in the thread showed an exceedingly anti town agenda in my opinion.
On March 21 2013 00:27 Ace wrote:
zarepath I think this is a scenario of someone playing badly as Town rather than a Scum screwing up the claim. Unless Wos is running some kind of gamble here, he just looks like someone silly /newbie enough to put his own survival over winning as a part of the Town.
I feel like from the last few pages we have mostly pro-Town players arguing over trivial stuff. We should start looking at the people on WoS's wagon, especially if you believe he is innocent. I would cross-check that with anyone who tried to push keirathi before his/her death at night and the GreyMist lynch. that being said was GreyMist town? the way it's written is ambiguous.
zarepath I think this is a scenario of someone playing badly as Town rather than a Scum screwing up the claim. Unless Wos is running some kind of gamble here, he just looks like someone silly /newbie enough to put his own survival over winning as a part of the Town.
I feel like from the last few pages we have mostly pro-Town players arguing over trivial stuff. We should start looking at the people on WoS's wagon, especially if you believe he is innocent. I would cross-check that with anyone who tried to push keirathi before his/her death at night and the GreyMist lynch. that being said was GreyMist town? the way it's written is ambiguous.
This first post comes right after WoS initiates his role cop claim. Ace wants us to look at the WoS band wagon and analyze those players hard. If we remember how the lynch train started up on WoS it was a bunch of votes very very quickly. The case on WoS was very convincing and without his claim and evidence he would surely be dead. The mafia literally did not need to be on his wagon at all because town was all over that. The mafia at that point could easily slow play this and figure out the effective way to scapegoat and lynch townies for the next cycle knowing this entire cycle would be wasted by a unanimous vote on WoS.
If you could see all of this from a scum perspective it's easy to see how you would know that none/few of your team are on the WoS and you can send the town on a wild goose chase wasting more time. This is a very strong play, but I believe makes it scummy is that he is heavily implying that those on the WoS are likely to be scum starting it up, when the truth is the case was very good and many many town jumped aboard very fast which created an excellent situation for mafia to capitalize on.
The town in this situation should realize that the WoS wagon is not as much lynch bait as you would think at first glance given the situation around the votes and the speed in which the wagon picked up. Dare I say there wouldn't of even been enough time for mafia to coordinate starting up that wagon.
On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote:
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.
Stop being ridiculous.
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.
Stop being ridiculous.
On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote:
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE.
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE.
On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote:
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard.
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard.
The claim was stupid and we can acknowledge that. It is very very tempting to go HAM as fuck on VE for something so stupid and I was even inclined to do so myself for a bit. But the way this devolves into functionally being a policy lynch for Ace is a bit meh. I know by the end of the game VE will probably have to die but if we analyze the situation it just does not make sense for him to have posted the logs at all if he was at the time third party. This is super easy to jump on because you have a dumb quote that paints VE really poorly. By itself I would think nothing of Ace doing this since I would expect it from him. One thing that makes Ace a good mafia player is an attempt at consistency in regards to lynching which allows him to utilize that on both town and mafia to push his agenda with only a moderate amount of manipulation. The key with this is to find that manipulation of the scenario and figure out what the agenda behind that manipulation is.
On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately.
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately.
On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote:
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.
But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.
I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz.
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.
But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.
I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz.
I'm going to start with the obvious here. Note the contradiction. "JUST FUCKING VOTE VE, FUCK EVERYONE ELSE" "OBVIOUSLY WE ARE STILL LOOKING AT OTHER CANDIDATES!"
The VE case and scenario was never as cut and dry as Ace attempted to make it seem with these posts among a few others. VE is not, and only might become a thread to town. Currently we can objectively say he is less of a thread. From a town standpoint it isn't necessarily bad to get rid of VE right now but it is definitely not amazing for us. VE isn't playing too well, he might be/become third party later in the game. But let's look at what it's not. VE is not scum. Scum needs to outnumber both town and third party so getting either lynched benefits them hugely because its one of them off the chopping block. This is a fact. To further drive this home Ace actively trying to turn this into a steamroll by quashing all other discussion and making VE the only person to get voted on. Stifling discussion and focusing conversation and votes on one person helps the mafia because it stifles discussion and limits the amount of information we can get from the entire day.
So with this move Ace is trying to coax a mislynch, and fuck up an entire day of information by stifling town information. This sets scum up for a very powerful day 3 allowing them more kills and giving the town less information while simultaneously eliminating another thread to the mafia.
Win-Fucking-Win. To conclude my case let's use one of his more recent posts.
On March 21 2013 08:17 Ace wrote:
VE look at this from our perspective: You botched your Vet claim as no one is going to claim Veteran under 0 pressure intstead of just saying they took a hit. Even if it's your "meta" - you are aware of it, and know some people here are also. So it would be bad news to claim that.
Second, the 3p thing. You said you lied about accepting his invitation...and posted it in the thread thereby nullfying the purpose of lying. I mean, are you thinking about what we see here? Based on your logs the 3p is going to get stronger once you're in. We really have to lynch you at this point. Doesn't matter that 3p may not be strong now. An anti-town player that can become stronger down the line needs to be dealt with.
So for the last time THINK about this from our perspective and see why you have to be lynched. Those 2 stunts you pulled just don't paint you as town. I also hope you step your game up in the future and stop doing silly shit like roleclaiming just because. This is a damn near policy lynch because of your past behavior.
VE look at this from our perspective: You botched your Vet claim as no one is going to claim Veteran under 0 pressure intstead of just saying they took a hit. Even if it's your "meta" - you are aware of it, and know some people here are also. So it would be bad news to claim that.
Second, the 3p thing. You said you lied about accepting his invitation...and posted it in the thread thereby nullfying the purpose of lying. I mean, are you thinking about what we see here? Based on your logs the 3p is going to get stronger once you're in. We really have to lynch you at this point. Doesn't matter that 3p may not be strong now. An anti-town player that can become stronger down the line needs to be dealt with.
So for the last time THINK about this from our perspective and see why you have to be lynched. Those 2 stunts you pulled just don't paint you as town. I also hope you step your game up in the future and stop doing silly shit like roleclaiming just because. This is a damn near policy lynch because of your past behavior.
It's a policy lynch, and it's one you have carefully and continue to manipulate in favor of the mafia. The way you have been directing/conducting the town Benefits the mafia first, and the town a far and distant second.
##Vote: Ace
