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On February 26 2013 09:39 WaveofShadow wrote: 'pretty much how I feel right now. See you D2 everybody! Come back WoS, I'll talk to you! Any scummy (or even just sketchy) posts so far that jump out at you? | ||
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@Milksuckler, any posts that you think are particularly sketchy so far? | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:07 MilkSuckler wrote: Geript entrance has been quite weak. Everything in his first post has been easy-to-say stances indicative of no alignment. The follow-up (newbie) reasoning is quite meek and weak to b00t - making me want to ignore his posts (and pot shots) This early into Day1 is a crafty way to blend in. Me no like-y. You think that running for mayor is a way to blend in? And what exactly about his reasoning is weak? Walk me through it. | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:11 Promethelax wrote: How about you aqua. Do you have ay thoughts? All I've heard from you is blends questions to weak/new players. Not liking ObviousOne so far. On February 26 2013 09:34 ObviousOne wrote: Top scum read probably geript at the very moment. His candidacy for mayor seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Guaranteed mislynch from him as either alignment. Terrible, terrible reasoning for this read. I'm living in the moment here. I don't make anything of the WF JJ shenanigans yet. Got asked a question, gave an answer. Ask me about geript again in 23 hours, okay? Promise? And he can't justify it at all. I don't do reads on the fly. You want an actual read from me, you'll need more than 45 minutes of a handful of players talking. Who's to say any mafia are even participating yet? He gives a read and then says this? | ||
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Nice one. Care to actually answer any of the points? | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:23 ObviousOne wrote: Terrible, terrible reasoning for this read. It was an interesting tactic to bring up, but it's also a good way for scum to get a weaker player into a position of power. And he can't justify it at all. There now you have some justification. He gives a read and then says this? Still stands. Also, let's kill Macho Man. You still haven't given any reason why geript is scum, merely that if he is then this would be a viable tactic. Do you have any actual reason to think that he is scum? | ||
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It was directed at OO. | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:31 Wade Fell wrote: He uses the word "dear" to refer to people, the only person who ever does this is Marvellosity, right? People who are trying to fake being Marvellosity do it too. | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:41 WaveofShadow wrote: Ok I'm back. Just kidding about lurking, y'all! Appreciate your efforts to stimulate discussion, Aquanim. Let's see what my extremely extensive D1 filter has reeled in. Oh look, a wild Promethelax who drops a scumread on me along with this timeless wisdom: At which point VE can't even contribute because I apparently 'lurked hard' D1 in my NMM game (despite the fact that if he even took 5 seconds to look at my filter from that game I was one of the highest post counts that day, well above the real lurkers in that game). Real strong cases to go on D1 guys, bravo. /golfclap In other news, there are 5 people who have yet to post and 5 possible scum. COINCIDENCE? So do you think one or both of Prom/VE are scum? | ||
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I don't get it. Is this a joke or do you see a scumslip? What is it? | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:43 Promethelax wrote: Talk to me about aqua. On February 26 2013 10:48 VisceraEyes wrote: Need more dataz. So far I'm not interested in lynching him if that's what you're asking - his read on OO seems genuine (and in my opinion decent). On February 26 2013 10:48 Promethelax wrote: ... Are you being serious or sarcastic about aqua? I'm not sure how VE's post could be construed as sarcastic... but in any case I get the feeling you have an opinion on me. Care to share it? | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:18 Aquanim wrote: Not liking ObviousOne so far. Terrible, terrible reasoning for this read. And he can't justify it at all. He gives a read and then says this? Did you miss this? | ||
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On February 26 2013 10:59 Promethelax wrote: Well I'd like to hear something from you first. Who is scum and why? My current strongest scum read is ObviousOne for the reasons stated earlier. His protestations of "I can't give reads early" combined with the reads he has in fact given with little-to-no reasoning feels like scum trying to contribute without actually committing himself. I don't have time to analyse everyone's play at the moment so that's all I have for now. | ||
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On February 26 2013 11:01 ObviousOne wrote: Aqua didn't like that I gave a gut read based on a hypothetical scenario when I didn't have anything better in mind. He's going to hold it against me forever and ever. The end. Oh, and OO's martyring about it isn't changing my mind at all. This? I expect something more from aqua. Give it a day or so. | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:38 MilkSuckler wrote: What about you aqua with mayor? Also, now that there has been an addition 10-20 pages; is your top read still OO? Agreed, if DocH wanted it I'd vote for him. I intend to properly read up on Wade Fell - if I end up thinking he's town (which I think I will, but we'll see) then I wouldn't be against him as mayor. After all, in this setup mayor will probably die pretty fast, and if WF is NK'd I won't be devastated. Obvious still hasn't done anything to make me think he's town at all. I've skimmed the last ten pages or so but haven't thoroughly read them yet. I think I need to go read some previous games of Prom to decide whether the case on him is good, it seems to be mostly based on trends in his play rather than specifically scummy actions. Still rereading so my reads are a work in progress. | ||
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On February 26 2013 18:33 Wade Fell wrote: nope nope what? Promethelax isn't town, Macho isn't scum, both, or something else entirely? While you're here could you walk me through the case on Prom? | ||
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On February 26 2013 18:52 Wade Fell wrote: Nope JJ's post is absolutely terrible. "Oh hey guys i have this thing that will convince you but I'm not gonna say it cause I'm too busy eating babies, having risky sexual encounters, and perpetrating voter fraud in Eastern Europe" is not a legitimate thing you can say in Mafia. Are you saying you think JJ is scum? What does his post being terrible mean? And on Prom, do you think his posturing over RNG is necessarily a scum move? Suggesting a RNG lynch while knowing full well it's a terrible idea is a gambit I've seen before, and "gambit" was the first thing I thought when I saw it. Not sure whether people who did it previously were scum or not though. Still, I don't see how it couldn't be town-motivated, as a method to create discussion. His "case" on you is frankly pretty bad. That being said, I don't see how going back and reading the thread and noticing something you didn't before is scummy as such. | ||
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Are you saying you think JJ is scum? What does his post being terrible mean in terms of his alignment? | ||
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On February 26 2013 19:15 Wade Fell wrote: You don't see how it could be scum motivated? Look at how he scrambles for scumreads, look at his case on me, it's not the result of rereading, it's the result of reinterpreting. I said I didn't see how it couldn't be town motivated, not that it couldn't be scum motivated. I'ma go digest that response and read the relevant parts of the thread, see if what you've said matches to my perception of reality. | ||
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On February 26 2013 19:19 Wade Fell wrote: If Prom was really trying to raise discussion with his rng as he claims, he'd have actually gotten into discussions with people. Any townie would naturally get arguing and get involved as people disagreed with him, especially one who was taking a position specifically for the purpose of starting discussions. A town Prom, if he did this, would have a bunch of posts, quote chains of him discussing RNG with haters, drumming up support, etc, and forcing scum to take stances. That's what a town player bringing up discussion looks like. Prom does NOT do this. Prom is scum. OK, I buy this. ##Vote: Wade Fell I'm still in favour of a lynch on Obvious because I feel like he overreacted to my pressure on him and since my interaction with him all he has is a filter page's worth of useless fluff. In fact, all of Obvious's filter is useless fluff. There's more than one scum in the game though and I agree, Prom's failure to actually try to make anything happen with his RNG gambit does not evoke towny feelings. | ||
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On February 26 2013 19:43 geript wrote: First off, there are three distinct tones in WoS key post and I'm going to separate them out. All this says is that whatever you are about to propose is absolutely retarded. All it says is, "ignore this post." This tone is returned to at the end. The second tone is the analysis tone: Basically this says, "trust a newbie to be pardoner." The problem is that his argument falls apart when you really analyze it. You don't want pardoner in the hands of a newbie because it's a free pass for when they get caught for them unless they're lynched D1. I agree with previous analysis, best to put pardoner on the mayor's lynch target. Next the general plea: This section is especially out of tone for him. I feel like I'm watching C3PO talk to Jabba here. This paragraph especially feels forced; the diction is all wrong for him. His posts are little more than mimicry than anything else in general but this paragraph is nothing of the sort. Next, I actually have to agree with what Prome said. The difference between Vivax response and WoS response is that Vivax actually attacks the argument (If you do A+B then no way you get to C). WoS response was essentially, "You got NK last game." WoS is playing excited this game. Even when he's grabbed a touch of heat, he's not been the slightest concerned about it and continues to "counterpressure" with bleh. I'm going to reread the thread a few times before I head to bed and sleep on it but for right now Vivax and WoS are on the top of my list but I'd need a flip to make a strong case. You claim that WoS is speaking in "different tones". What is your actual point? And do you claim that being excited makes WoS scum? In fact what are you saying here at all besides spraying inconclusive, uncommittal suspicion at WoS? | ||
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On February 26 2013 19:56 geript wrote: My point is that I think his posts are a combination of scripting and mimicry. Are you saying that you think the "analysis" part of what you posted was written by a hypothetical scumbuddy of WoS and the rest was him writing his own stuff? What do you mean by mimicry, anyway? ...but emotional state gives a read on the reasons behind the actions and thus the goal of the actions. I have no idea what this means and still no idea why being excited makes you think WoS is scum at all. Can you rephrase this for me? | ||
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On February 26 2013 20:09 geript wrote: By mimicry I mean finding things that other people in the thread are saying and trying to copy and apply it. Isn't this to be expected from a newbie? I know I learn things from watching the other people in this game... Prolonged excitation doesn't make sense from a town role. Why not? | ||
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On February 27 2013 12:12 WaveofShadow wrote: What happened to Aquanim? Sleeping then busy all morning. Just got home. (Nice timing.) I'm willing to talk about stuff but I'm not going to have anything meaningful to say off my own bat for a little while. | ||
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On February 27 2013 12:51 geript wrote: So Aqua, what do you think of Dr.H? I like the way he thinks. Town. Why do you ask? Also, what is your read on DocH? | ||
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On February 27 2013 02:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote: ... I think ObviousOne (for reasons already mentioned, read posts by Aquanim and the Milkman, I can go more in depth) is likely mafia. I also think vigilantes/detectives ought to look closely through the filter of WaveofShadow and jcarlsoniv with a copy of Ver's Town Guide in the next tab and see what you feel like doing tonight. ... On February 27 2013 11:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Gotta love seeing the mafia panic as soon as I get any cred. I'm not even pushing my own election. If I'm pardoner i wont use the power. Noone is confirmed town unless you're scum and already know or they die and flip. If your suspicion is based on the fact that I'm not confirmed as town, then kill anyone. Misrepresenting as hell to say all i did was pressure prom a little. I made the biggest case to get the wagon rolling and I nailed wos and vivax to the wall immediately when I got wary of their posts. Even if I'm wrong about prom, my aggression and focus will have the scum sweating. Prom layabout jj geript testsubject vivax Gg no re If you don't trust me, don't vote for me. If you're suspicious of me have the balls to call me scum. If your goal is to discredit a player who is scumhunting aggressively then you're not helping, especially if you can't point out how my case is so flawed, or honestly represent my post history. Geript has admitted only that i make him nervous and i doubt the town feels the same way. Hmmm who might react that way then? Prom dies today, everyone else gets pressure. I'll save my next case for when it matters because splitting the wagons now does no good. If you're just coming in now to discredit active townies after being absent from all productive town discussion, kiss your scum ass goodbye and learn how to play next time. @DoctorHelvetica, where did the scum reads on ObviousOne, WoS and jcarlsoniv go? | ||
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On February 27 2013 13:50 WaveofShadow wrote: Now as for scumhunting, we've gotten nowhere in a very long time as with Prom on the chopping block no one else appears to feel even remotely threatened.... What makes you think we're not getting anywhere? | ||
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On February 27 2013 13:31 Aquanim wrote: @DoctorHelvetica, where did the scum reads on ObviousOne, WoS and jcarlsoniv go? Yo DoctorHelvetica, could you answer this for me? | ||
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On February 27 2013 15:53 VisceraEyes wrote: Re: Toad I still don't like how he's all "WTF this Prom lynch is MINE everyone is sheeping ME". If Prom flips scum I'm going to be instantly more suspicious of Toad, not less, considering the fact that A) he's been actively trying to take credit for the Prom lynch and B) Prom clearly had something planned for this phase where he'd be AFK for a long period. "Yeah guys just bus me" is exactly the kind of thing that gets typed in QT's when that's the case. He's done no scumhunting BESIDES his pressure of Prom at the beginning of the game - if he's so certain of Prom, why is he not in here actively trying to find Prom's team? Why is he doing nothing but ride this Prom lynch to its conclusion? Ultimately I'm still leaning scum, but his suggestion at the beginning of the game wasn't a bad one if we can pull it off. I want to see more from him. Yeah I pretty much agree with this. His filter is literally composed of only attacking prom, claiming credit for the prom wagon and useless fluff. Also agree that I want to see another day's worth of posts. Was that scumread on MilkSuckler based solely on his attempts to take credit for the Prom case? I buy the argument in Toad's case but MilkSuckler's done plenty of other stuff too, have you taken that into account? | ||
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On February 27 2013 16:11 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm really growing more and more impatient with Obvious. It feels like he doesn't care about this game at all. Are you saying you think he's town? | ||
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On February 27 2013 18:30 Vivax wrote: This post made my scumdar go off, this guy asked two questions about OO earlier but stopped pushing him despite posting the posts at the bottom earlier. He's currently agreeing with VE on Toad, but he never pressures Oo despite having a scumread on him, he just keeps asking others about their opinion on him. I've been waiting to see if Obvious was inclined to do anything useful on his own. Only so much you can learn from pressure. | ||
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On February 27 2013 18:39 Vivax wrote: What's your read of Prom aqua? Likely scum, mostly based on his failure to try to make much of anything happen with the RNG lynch gambit. A fair fraction of my wish to lynch him is based on sheeping people who know him much better than me though. | ||
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On February 27 2013 18:47 Vivax wrote: You flipflopped pretty quickly on Prom's RNG gambit while subtly trying to switch attention to Oo throughout and afterwards. I don't see you mentioning Prom after this. Prom's RNG behaviour went from a townie gambit to a scummy failure. I don't see what changed in between for you. Could you mention other reasons for why you think he's scum? I didn't see any further purpose to mentioning Prom after that. I was convinced by the case and it's hardly like the Prom lynch has been discussed a whole lot since. I originally thought that people were thinking Prom scummy for the RNG gambit in as of itself, which I didn't agree with. When his lack of actual effort in trying to make the gambit successful was highlighted I went back and read it myself and agreed. As for other reasons... go back and read the case Wade quoted at me, though the lack of effort into the gambit was the only part I'm firmly convinced has no likely town explanation. And yeah, I still think OO's scum and if his play doesn't convince me otherwise by tomorrow I'll push for his lynch. | ||
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On February 27 2013 19:03 Vivax wrote: That's all then. Could you take a look at Hassy and tell me if you see anything scummy? There's not much to look at :/ For someone running for Pardoner (in his first post) Hassy hasn't put any effort since into looking town... which one would think would be a prerequisite, given that pretty much the only point of the role for town is to keep it out of scum's hands. His throwaway bid for Pardoner, without any followup in terms of campaigning, is slightly scummy - I can well imagine a scum trying for the role, then ignoring it and slipping away when his bid doesn't gain any traction. Besides that all he's done is talk a little with OO which is null for me without anything further in his filter to correlate with it. Obviously I'm hoping for more content when he's less busy. | ||
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On February 27 2013 19:28 Vivax wrote: ...and then proceeds to say: Oh well, I'll stick to Prom/Vivax and fucks off. I think he was telling OO to stick to Prom/Vivax, not that those were the only people Hassy was looking at. On February 27 2013 10:18 ObviousOne wrote: Between Prom/Vivax or are you talking about any other candidates? On February 27 2013 10:21 Hassybaby wrote: Lets stick with Prom/Virax for now | ||
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On February 27 2013 19:38 Vivax wrote: Besides, what's more suspicious is that he asks Oo to narrow down a 5-dude-list when there's layabout posting a 7-dude list and saying we shouldn't lynch Prom. Oo was under pressure, layabout wasn't. Hassy wants to lynch me and Prom, yet asks the guy with Prom in his list to narrow it down and ignores layabout. Given the timestamps I imagine Hassy made that post asking OO about his list before seeing Layabout's post. I doubt he saw them both and decided to only pressure OO. The fact that Hassy didn't also ask Layabout about his list afterwards is odd though I agree. | ||
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I will have to leave in half-an-hour and won't be back until after deadline so if my vote has to go somewhere to satisfy whatever our plan is tell me now. | ||
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On February 28 2013 07:03 GreYMisT wrote: Day 1 Mayor Vote Count Wade Fell (6): VisceraEyes (7): DoctorHelvetica (5): Promethelax (5): geript, TestSubject893, Toadesstern, Vivax, Layabout At the moment VisceraEyes is to be elected Mayor and DoctorHelvetica is to be elected Pardoner Wait, what? | ||
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EBWOP: The point of the above was that Wade has more votes than DocH but DocH is set to be pardoner, is there something I'm missing? | ||
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So, these cases. OO's case On February 28 2013 11:50 ObviousOne wrote: Aquanim believes that the Obvious One is a member of the cultist faction. His reasons are:
To these statements, I say that I am indeed guilty. Guilty. As. Charged. These aren't the reasons I said you were scum. I said you were scum for
So you've twisted what I said a little here. Let us now, however, turn the tables and see how well the Aquatic One follows his own advice. One case which he has been tunneling on for 48 hours: When Aquanim is not busy telling everyone that I am definitely scum, he is asking questions. A great many questions. His case on me from two real days ago seems to be able to stand on its own legs despite the vast amount of further spam and pointless drivel I have provided and he has NOT sought to strengthen his case with the newest information up to this point? If he hasn't developed his case on me, where are the other scum reads he has promised? To this I say, we shan't let you get off on coasting with having a single solitary voluntary scum read outside of the two most promising lynch candidates of Day 1. You cannot, as I have done, sit back and simply ask questions and go along with the prevailing theories of town while keeping me as your scum read and not keeping up on developing your case. I'd believe you were town if you had been pushing your own read as evidence developed. You are no better than I. The case will indeed be developed further with my thoughts on your more recent play. Stay tuned. Or how about the fact that both of us ask lots of questions, though we may choose different people to ask? Observe both of our filters, and see how each of us has many many questions and very little opinion or analysis. Either Aquanim is playing the same relative level of town that I am or he knows I'm town and has used my early read as an opportunistic strike to put me on my back foot. Again, nothing he has said about me is wrong, but his filter is not too much different. I'm not intentionally trying to be useless, I just have some level of bi-polar tendencies in that some days are good and others are bad, and the gap between is rather wide. Yesterday was bad, hopefully tomorrow is good. Well this is a straight-up OMGUS. Pretty much everything in this case is complaining about my case on you (and perhaps how it applies to me as well). I didn't really see the point in posting serious cases after about midway through D1. I much prefer to pressure someone when I can actually threaten them with a lynch, and the Prom lynch was pretty much cemented. My play was focusing on dissecting cases made by other people (geript and Vivax in particular iirc) and thinking about whether they were sincere. JJ's case On February 28 2013 13:02 JungleJorge wrote: While reading through prom's filter I noticed his interactions with aquanim looked pretty forced. I decided then to investigate further and came across this gem. Notice he wants to vote Wade Fell and DocH, both of which intend to lynch prom and that is the main driving force of their campaign as mayor. But look he hasn't even a formed opinion on prom still, and we get even a soft defense as a bonus! Look at the tone of this whole post and how noncommittal he is with everything he says regarding other players. Now why would a player who doesn't believe prom is scum would ever "vote for DocH if he wanted it"? The sheer inherent guilt from this post is sickening. I'm extremely confident this man is scum, even more so than TMM and RO. If we have any vigs take a shot at this man. I was happy with a vote for WF or DocH because I thought DocH was town and after talking to him about the Prom case I was very sure WF was town (see: mayoral vote). My priority for mayor was voting for a strong player whom I had a town read on. If I had convinced myself that Prom was town, I'd have tried to convince them of it rather than switching to someone else. Not having a firm opinion on Prom isn't inconsistent with wanting WF or DocH as mayor. Also, I don't see how this is a defence of Prom. I said "I don't know whether this case is good". At that point I didn't. Saying that the case was "mostly based on trends in his play rather than specifically scummy actions" wasn't a statement that the case was bad, merely that without a better understanding of Prom's meta (and thus his trends as town or scum) I couldn't reach a firm conclusion. For the record I never did end up looking at Prom's meta - his failure to try to make anything happen with his RNG gambit was in fact a "specifically scummy action" and was the point that convinced me. | ||
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On February 28 2013 15:42 MilkSuckler wrote: Aqua, The above is *really* conflicting my thought process on you. I need a fleshed out response. Please keep in mind the below:
Well, I'm still convinced that RNG is bad. Discussing it might not have been, and I thought that people were claiming that the gambit itself was scummy. Until Wade emphasised it I hadn't realised just how little effort Prom had put into trying to get it discussed. Perhaps that had been emphasised earlier, I have no idea - this is a large thread and I haven't read it all thoroughly. In any case, asking WF those questions had another purpose - exploring just how much conviction he had for the case, and how thoroughly he had thought it through. | ||
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I want to know specifically how you think RNG discussion can be beneficial to town discussion, considering that was a major reason of you not accepting the case (initially) Lemme lay out a possible scenario.
tl;dr - baiting scum to attack you (in a way which will expose them as scum) by making an easily attackable post is a conceivable town tactic. | ||
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On February 28 2013 16:28 MilkSuckler wrote: ##Vig: Aquanim Wrong answer The conversation I had with Prome pre-game actually supports your hypothesis. the problem is: promes actions in-game....Which conveniently you quoted for me already Let me bring to the fore points I raised in my case of Prome There is no fucking way a townie goes about achieving a trap like that the way prome went about it. I actually have respect for your play; and know you pride yourself on picking up bullshit like what Prome did. That you turn a blind eye (repeatedly)... well... there is nothing to say I lol'd Pretty sure you town though, this feels like town Mocsta logic. Like I said, I didn't read the entire thread in detail. Your posts are hard to read at the best of times and I didn't read all of your arguments in detail, so if you said it before WF I guess I just didn't see it. Having looked at the roles I'm pretty sure I can't possibly be dead before the daypost. I'll post my reads sometime. | ||
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Wrong answer Out of curiosity, what would have been the right answer? If there wasn't one, maybe you oughta reexamine your read for confirmation bias... | ||
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On February 28 2013 16:40 Aquanim wrote: Out of curiosity, what would have been the right answer? If there wasn't one, maybe you oughta reexamine your read for confirmation bias... Yo MilkSuckler, I'm not dead quite yet. Answer the question. | ||
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On February 28 2013 16:48 MilkSuckler wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399294¤tpage=97#1940 You gave the right answer... thats why it is the wrong answer. You have proven you understand the reasoning behind town/scum logic with RNG discussion. Yet is You even quote his behaviour and turn a blind eye. For me: This actually for me proves you are scum.. you KNOWINGLY turned a blind eye to what you know (as a townie) *stinks* I conclude with: This isn't actually an answer to my question. If there weren't any answers I could have given that would have changed your mind why did you ask the question in the first place? Also... Yet is I don't really agree with this, and it certainly wasn't clear to me at the time. F'rinstance, I thought at the time that Prom insulting the first player to question him was designed to rile people up more and try to provoke a response, which would have been a good townie tactic. Your case is still assuming that I have completely read the thread and thought hard about all of it, which is already longer than any games I've previously played. I've been busy since the game started and thus haven't had time to think critically about all 25 players. What exactly is scummy about me not realising Prom's gambit wasn't done well until it was specifically pointed out? Do you seriously think the entirety of my filter reflects a scummy player? I know you, and I know how many townies you've tunneled based on a single perceived inconsistency. You're doing it again. | ||
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On February 28 2013 17:12 MilkSuckler wrote: Nice work going ad-hominem at the end. ========= If you recall, I actually liked your filter when JJ called you out, and said he needs to provide more substance. My issue with your play came about during your defense from JJ. I probed you, and your guilt became more and more apparent; no tunneling involved there. Nice try to discredit there, dear :p Mate, I'm trying to point out to you where you're going wrong so you can learn from this and become a better player. Like I said, when I flip take a look at your case. You're essentially lynching me for not being perfect. ========= ======== To expound: That you comment on town-motivation with prome; infers you spent time examining the action in question before deriving at your soft-defense conclusion. Our discussions have proved you are aware of what is right, and what is wrong.. I severely doubt you had an epiphany moment mid-game, to give you improved insight into town/scum motivations; so its safe to conclude you were aware of this pre-game. Thus, you analysed the behaviour.. you were aware of what is town motivation.. but you still turned a blind eye and tried to cast doubt on a prome lynch.. I see ZERO town motivation for that action I had an epiphany (pretty good description actually) that Promethelax wasn't trying to make the RNG gambit succeed. I thought he might have been at that point, and later realised he almost certainly wasn't. You can take that or leave it. And once again that was NOT A DEFENCE OF PROM. That was a "someone please explain this to me further", and Wade obliged. | ||
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On February 28 2013 17:26 MilkSuckler wrote: Having said that.. I am not a vig, so from that perspective; I am not the one that needs to be convinced of innocence/guilt lol I wondered about that. | ||
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Not sure whether I'm in more danger from scum or an overzealous vig :/ Likely scum Hassybaby + Show Spoiler + Just getting this out of the way first - he's lurked hard to date. His contributions are - Made a pitch for pardoner. Nobody really paid any attention to it at all. - Asks whether OO thinks Prom or Vivax is a good lynch - Defends himself against Vivax for the above, rages at Vivax then leaves. He says he's busy - fine, I understand that. Look at this though. On February 27 2013 07:21 Hassybaby wrote: A thank you to the guy who reminded me that the game actually started 40 mins after I said I was in. You know who you are and you're awesome and hot (I thought it was starting tonight.) I'm just going to go along and comment as I go down the thread, but have a window open for the most recent stuff, so I can answer/comment on anything immediate as well. First of, layabout, I've never been so turned on before. That picture is the hottest thing I've seen since Wiggles accidentally turned his camera on during a dota-session Skype call. While we're on the voting mayor malarky, I'd like to throw my hat in...for the pardoner. My platform: I won't use it. Like Holy Roman, but without the archbishop crap. I want the case to be that I get pardoner, I'm all "cool" then we move on because it should be only a talking point if I use it, which I have no intention to. And you're all welcome to shoot me if I go back on that. As fort he major spot, as of page 29, I'm leaning towards VE as mayor. History dictates that VE and Toad are bitches to read for me (I gave up on my brain and went with gut feeling in the last 2 attempts,) and having them in spots of power gives more for me to work with. Toad doesn't want it, so VE it is. My gut agrees for now. ##Vote: VE Moar readingz! This is his platform for being pardoner. Basically his platform is that he won't use it... which is completely obvious and pretty much assumed of the pardoner. As for "you're all welcome to shoot me if I go back on that", scum would only use the power at LYLO anyway... but I digress. Read this post. Hassybaby thought seriously about this post. This was a serious attempt to become the pardoner. In that case, why do we never hear about this again? Hassybaby doesn't mention the role ever again. And it's not like anyone told him not to try either - in that case it would have been understandable. The only reason I can think of for someone to make a bid for office and then never mention it again is that he's scum and didn't want to make too much noise about it. The fact that he's specifically running for pardoner and has no interest in mayor is suggestive as well. + Show Spoiler + Now that I think about it, doesn't a scum mayor have a similar effect on LYLO to a scum pardoner? The difference being I suppose that mayor is likely to be under more scrutiny. tl;dr There is no tl;dr this case is already rivalling Hassybaby's filter in length TestSubject893 + Show Spoiler + In his first stint of playing TestSubject discussed exactly one thing: Pardoner policy. Didn't pay any attention to my opinion on OO or indeed anything else in the thread involving scumhunting. When he comes back we have this: On February 27 2013 09:35 TestSubject893 wrote: I've been working all day and just now got caught up on the thread. Here's what I've got. Promethelax is still my top scum read and I will be voting for a mayor that wants to kill him. Jungle Jorge and ObviousOne, in that order, are next on my scum list. I think we're placing a little too much trust in DoctorHelvetica. It seems like some people are treating him as nearly confirmed town, and frankly he's not even close to that in my book. Moreover, I'm afraid that should DrH get either of the elected roles, his perception as confirmed town will only be furthered, without him doing anything more pro-town. Most of his cred has come from telling people they aren't scumhunting enough and how great scumhunting is, and while these things are pro-town, its not something that's hard to fake. On top of that, the only contribution he's made on the scumhunting front is to really amplify the pressure on Prome. While again, this is great, the fact that he seems to be distancing himself from it slightly in this post + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2013 04:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Weird that you chose to respond to that specifically. Maybe not, maybe I'm being paranoid. And yes, I'm still pushing Prome for the day. He basically martyred so he should die. I'm working from 1-10 PST tonight so unfortunately I'm not gonna be able to be here to push him. Since all discussion is built on this foundation of lynching Prome, it's the best outcome for us right now. At least for Day 1. I would never say to lynch for information, I absolutely believe he is scum but there is no sense in acting on hunches and getting distracted. Don't fuck it up guys keep focused on the goal of finding scum. Everything else comes second. I think it's likely that DrH is town, but lets make him prove that to us before we show him so much trust. Hopefully, we've gotten it right with Prome, in which case DrH will be deserving of the town cred he seems to currently have. With the this in mind, I'm going to vote for someone who is going lynch Prome, but whose election I think will not stunt discussion and critique of the mayor himself. ##Vote: VisceraEyes Promethelax is still his top scum read? Don't think he mentioned this before, but whatever. I'm not sure what to make of his reservations on DocH either. Maybe town being properly cautious? Maybe scum not wanting DocH to be "confirmed" town? idk. The rest of his filter is mostly answering some questions from Layabout and then arranging the election. tl;dr I see no evidence of him thinking at all about finding scum and nothing which makes me think he's town. Other Plausible Scum Chaos Bear + Show Spoiler + this space intentionally left blank Toad + Show Spoiler + My problem with Toad is the sheer amount of nothing he did for most of day 1. Sure he caught (or helped to catch) Prom. But after that he mostly just sat on his ass and congratulated himself. Particularly he didn't put any effort into trying to learn anything else from day 1. His play just feels sloppy to me after he caught Prom, but it would be sloppy town or sloppy scum. Not a huge suspect but I'm uneasy. Prom knew he'd have to leave late D1, a bus from Toad is at least plausible. Geript + Show Spoiler + I'm torn on this one. Reading through his filter I see towny things:
... and scummy things:
No idea what to make of his discussion with VE yet since it's going on as I write this, seeing as it's now more than a third of his filter I may have to adjust this read. His general suspicion of more prominent players is suggestive of paranoid town... or scum trying to look like paranoid town (see: Axle in LIX). JungleJorge + Show Spoiler + The only meaningful thing he did day 1 was his fake-defence of Prom. I don't know what to make of his reads in night one... I don't see how Restraining Order was "mudslinging" at all. No idea how he has a town lean on TestSubject. His case on me is... well, I can believe that he believes it, but if he does he's suffering from tunneling a single aspect of my filter. Which is hardly uncommon. Then again, it would also be consistent with a cherrypicking scum. There's a lot I don't understand the motivation for in a comparatively short filter and I don't like that. I have no particularly good reason to think he's scum, but I'm dubious about his play in general. People who I haven't looked at at all + Show Spoiler + long thread is long jcarlsoniv The Macho Man layabout Some other people I want more from Restraining Order and Randombum. No idea what to make of Grush and Chezinu. ObviousOne + Show Spoiler + Obvious' play was bloody useless for the first half of D1. I think he overreacted a lot to my pressure, and his N1 case on me was pretty terrible. However. If you read his case on me as a defence of himself (pointing out that everything he thinks I've accused him of is stuff I've kinda done) it makes sense. It might not be particularly good play, but Obvious has been tilted at me all game, and this case does reflect that. A lot of his play hasn't been all that good and he doesn't like me much but my gut's starting to tell me that OO is town. I don't like it much but there you are. I've read Grush and I have no idea what his alignment is. I haven't read Chezinu and I doubt doing so will help. My intended lynch is Hassybaby. That might change if he actually plays. | ||
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On March 01 2013 08:58 VayeshMoru wrote: Also Aquanim had one of the most fucked up posts i've ever seen for his "death" post. Why include reads on people you aren't sure about. Put down the ones you think are scum and why. Null tells are fucking useless. Some of them started as scum reads :/ | ||
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##Vote: Hassybaby | ||
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On March 01 2013 09:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If I were medic, I wouldn't protect VisceraEyes. I would have protected BloodyC0bbler to see what he brings Day 1 or maybe WaveofShadow. Why would you have protected WaveofShadow? | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:05 The Milkman wrote: Furthermore: Vivax attacks me on the basis of my day one play. He also claims to be a vigilante. His scum reads he has expressed throughout the day and night were me and glurio. He chose to shoot hassybaby. If he is so dead set on me being scum based on day one play, why he did not try to kill me? Easy. First, he is not a vigilante. Second, he is scum. Why would he change his mind and "shoot" Hassy if he was scum? | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:18 MilkSuckler wrote: Where... It was you that said it was safe.. using your logic.. YOU scum slipped ##Vote: Vivax "Safe" shot might have been an unfortunate choice of words but I don't see how it makes Vivax scum. Hassybaby was a much better shot than Milkman or Glurio and I don't see what's wrong with Vivax making that choice. | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:24 layabout wrote: Aqua since the main point of your case is that hassy tried to be pardoner what do you think of the fact that he ran for a similar role in Holy Roman mafia on a similar basis won it and didn't use it? Despite that being a theme/ troll game it doesn't change that he has done the exact thing that you are calling him scum for as town. I think we should lynch macho today or failing that chez since I trust BC on this. night. I don't think he's scum because he ran for Pardoner, I think he's scum because he put no effort besides that original post into his campaign. The initial post indicated enthusiasm for the role - his lack of interest afterwards indicated otherwise. IMO the best way to reconcile that difference is that he's scum and didn't With a quick look at his filter in Holy Roman Mafia it seems that there he pushed his campaign for Empress after his initial post and was consistently interested in getting it, whereas here he let it sink without a trace. That's the difference between HRMafia and here. If you disagree with that I can take a closer look at HR. | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:30 MilkSuckler wrote: I dont see anything wrong with it either.. do you guys not read the thread Vivax accused Milkman of being scum saying "milkman called hassy safe" I showed, it was vivax who said it was safe.. hence.. using vivax logic.. vivax is scum Why are you and geript over reacting to this so much? 1) why are you using vivax logic when you clearly hold it in disdain? 2) why does being wrong about who said it was safe make vivax scum? I'm reacting to this because I think Vivax is town and your reasons for voting him are silly. The sooner silly things are dismissed the faster we can return to finding actual scum. | ||
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On March 01 2013 11:25 WaveofShadow wrote: So...nobody has had a look at MilkSuckler/Mocsta in a little while, and as much as I'd like to, people tend to ignore my shit. Vivax, Geript, Aquanim and DrH. Any thoughts regarding him at all before I dive in at some point in the near future? His case on me felt a lot like town Mocsta. My only reservation is that he's generally more obnoxious as town than scum and I wouldn't describe his play so far as obnoxious (check nomination mafia for a comparison). That's pretty paranoid though and maybe he's trying to change it up with his smurf. Leaving for a while see you later. | ||
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what just happened what | ||
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Also, I'd like to hear your read on layabout. GG Milkman. Your milk is delicious. | ||
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On March 01 2013 20:03 Toadesstern wrote: ##vote MachoMan see you in 48 hours. I don't know IamP's meta and you haven't explained this at all besides "he's scum trust me". Why Macho Man? Lay it out for me. | ||
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On March 01 2013 20:22 Toadesstern wrote: So if you want me to answer something give me something that I can answer. On March 01 2013 20:11 Aquanim wrote: Why Macho Man? | ||
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On March 01 2013 20:38 Toadesstern wrote: I'm a bit more certain on him. Also people seem to agree about him which makes it less likely I'm wrong about him. What exactly makes him scummier than Hassybaby? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Hassybaby Just getting this out of the way first - he's lurked hard to date. His contributions are - Made a pitch for pardoner. Nobody really paid any attention to it at all. - Asks whether OO thinks Prom or Vivax is a good lynch - Defends himself against Vivax for the above, rages at Vivax then leaves. He says he's busy - fine, I understand that. Look at this though. On February 27 2013 07:21 Hassybaby wrote: A thank you to the guy who reminded me that the game actually started 40 mins after I said I was in. You know who you are and you're awesome and hot (I thought it was starting tonight.) I'm just going to go along and comment as I go down the thread, but have a window open for the most recent stuff, so I can answer/comment on anything immediate as well. First of, layabout, I've never been so turned on before. That picture is the hottest thing I've seen since Wiggles accidentally turned his camera on during a dota-session Skype call. While we're on the voting mayor malarky, I'd like to throw my hat in...for the pardoner. My platform: I won't use it. Like Holy Roman, but without the archbishop crap. I want the case to be that I get pardoner, I'm all "cool" then we move on because it should be only a talking point if I use it, which I have no intention to. And you're all welcome to shoot me if I go back on that. As fort he major spot, as of page 29, I'm leaning towards VE as mayor. History dictates that VE and Toad are bitches to read for me (I gave up on my brain and went with gut feeling in the last 2 attempts,) and having them in spots of power gives more for me to work with. Toad doesn't want it, so VE it is. My gut agrees for now. ##Vote: VE Moar readingz! This is his platform for being pardoner. Basically his platform is that he won't use it... which is completely obvious and pretty much assumed of the pardoner. As for "you're all welcome to shoot me if I go back on that", scum would only use the power at LYLO anyway... but I digress. Read this post. Hassybaby thought seriously about this post. This was a serious attempt to become the pardoner. In that case, why do we never hear about this again? Hassybaby doesn't mention the role ever again. And it's not like anyone told him not to try either - in that case it would have been understandable. The only reason I can think of for someone to make a bid for office and then never mention it again is that he's scum and didn't want to make too much noise about it. The fact that he's specifically running for pardoner and has no interest in mayor is suggestive as well. + Show Spoiler + Now that I think about it, doesn't a scum mayor have a similar effect on LYLO to a scum pardoner? The difference being I suppose that mayor is likely to be under more scrutiny. tl;dr There is no tl;dr this case is already rivalling Hassybaby's filter in length And stop dodging the damn question and tell me what about Macho is scummy. | ||
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On March 01 2013 21:20 Wade Fell wrote: ...we're getting all confused when we should be _focused_ on killing chez. STOP BEING CONFUSED EXPLAIN WHY U NO VOTE CHEZ Because I want to learn something today? | ||
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On March 01 2013 21:25 Wade Fell wrote: No. Fuck that reason. Fuck it . I dont' care about learning, I don't care about anything but lynching scum, and CHEZ IS SCUM. Why would anything other than lynching scum matter I'd like to lynch scum tomorrow too. | ||
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skimread your case and it looks legit want to compare it to chez's filter though I'll get back to you in an hour | ||
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I reckon you're right that Chezinu is being unusually useless this game. I can't fathom why Chezinu wouldn't put more effort into appearing useful even if he did roll scum, but I agree that this is more likely from scum Chezinu. (Intend to read LIX later to see his scum meta.) I also can't fathom why he shot Milkman but that applies regardless of his alignment :/ So yes, my feeling is that Chezinu is scum. My feeling is less strong than yours, but then I do not know Chezinu as well. For reference my feeling is "Yeah, I'm comfortable with this lynch" as opposed to "LYNCH IT WITH FIRE". However. Regardless of whether that's true or not there are other scum in the game. (For instance, Hassybaby.) I think my time can be more profitably spent looking for scum elsewhere. If I don't have a scumread as strong as the one for Chezinu as the end of the day approaches I'll vote for a Chezinu lynch. We done? | ||
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However. Regardless of whether Chezinu is scum or not... | ||
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p50; layabout decides to support the prome lynch, and then leaves his options by throwing some town pointers on prome -> which is where the hassy reference ties in. On February 26 2013 11:53 Promethelax wrote: Hassy vanished. Scummy. On February 26 2013 11:55 Promethelax wrote: You k ow hassy at all? Would he vanish like that as town? If anything, this makes hassy more likely to be town (unfortunately) ... i.e. prome sniffed an easy target to push as scum. You mean this? Your point here was that Prom said that Hassy was scummy I believe. IIRC at that point Prom was pretty dead and he knew it. (Even if the entire thing wasn't a preplanned bus.) As such analysing based on pretty much any reads he gave are WIFOM at best. | ||
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On March 02 2013 07:11 Vivax wrote: Imo Milkman was good lynch bait, but maybe that's just me. For the rest, it makes sense. Mafia doesn't lose KP with his death anyway so he might as well have tried to get that action out quickly. ... Mafia is at 4 players currently. If they lose another player they will be at 3. Mafia KP is Mafia #/2 Rounded Down with a minimum of 1. 4/2 rounded down is 2. 3/2 rounded down is 1. So if one more scum dies they will lose a KP. | ||
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On March 02 2013 09:34 Wade Fell wrote: isn't that even more reason to lynch chez rather than lynching for weird abstract reasons like "information" I will vote to lynch Chez as deadline approaches unless I become more confident in scum elsewhere. Hassybaby literally hasn't posted since day 1 and that is unacceptable. | ||
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On March 02 2013 11:48 geript wrote: I don't think [Chezinu]'s scum. Under the circumstances you're going to have to explain that one. Thoroughly. | ||
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On March 02 2013 12:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Nothing to talk about because we're gonna lynch geript day 3 Why? Because he thinks you're scum? | ||
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On March 02 2013 15:33 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm kind of tired and actually not completely sold on Chezinu, I can't imagine an invested townie would play the way he is playing but what a game we're having. Toadesstern gave up on the game like 2 hours into the day because I accused him and voted for himself, it's really bumming me out. I can't help myself when there is a setup issue like this I'll second-guess myself in circles over and over and over again like a dog chasing it's own tail. Still can't figure why he'd accuse me considering I'm the only vocal townie to actually defend him in any meaningful way. I'd rather lynch Geript for today personally because I have clearer thoughts about that. Chezinu's attitude towards this game baffles me as well - makes no sense from town Chezinu, but this isn't the quality of scum game I'd expect from Chezinu either. That being said, he rolled scum in his last game (LIX) and it was a seismic clusterf*** for scum. Maybe upon arriving in the thread, ending up as scum for the second game in a row, and seeing scumbuddy Prom about to be lynched he decided the game wasn't worth playing? The only town Chezinu hypothesis I have is that he was excited to roll dayvig and didn't want to get NK'd/vigid/whatever so he tried to play slow... but I have much, much more difficulty buying that than the above. Doesn't look like Hassybaby will come out to play so ##Unvote ##Vote: Chezinu On March 02 2013 15:52 DoctorHelvetica wrote: The atmosphere in this game is abysmal you ain't kidding | ||
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On March 02 2013 16:17 Wade Fell wrote: the kind of townie who is likely the scumbuddy of chez And you wonder why geript is martyring himself and asking snide questions. Whether he's town or scum the reason he's behaving like this is you two... | ||
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On March 03 2013 06:09 layabout wrote: I don't need towncred, there are only 3 ppl in the game that might look townier than me. lolwat towny is not what I think when I look at you | ||
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On March 03 2013 07:51 layabout wrote: no it isn't, it's a bit against the spirit of the game though + Show Spoiler + It is common for mafia to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk. aqua i shouldn't be the one to point out why to you but you should think i am town. What, because you buddied me? On February 27 2013 01:43 layabout wrote: I will give my thoughts on prom in a bit but right now i want aquanim as mayor/pardoner but if we are certain that the mayor will die then BH should go for it. + Show Spoiler + since he wants to and since i don't want to play with him | ||
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On March 03 2013 07:59 layabout wrote: I don't want to play in this game anymore Just because that defence "worked" for Toad doesn't mean it will work for you. | ||
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Radio Announcer: You control the local radio station! each night you may select 1 player and communicate with them throughout the day. You will need stop communicating with this player after that day though, as your signal could be tracked. On February 27 2013 15:14 Chezinu wrote: After calibrating the receiver, I was able to pick up a modulated signal. The signal had to be separated into six components using Fourier transform and nitpicking the proper ranges to apply the inverse Fourier transform. A tedious demodulation process. Here is what I was able to put together: + Show Spoiler + http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/16956205/Lost_Fragment_of_Isunizehc_2 Analysis: It seems to be audio of some creatures that I can't seem to decipher. At one point it sounds like rockets from a ship is going off in mid-air. Sound like that can only be recorded under an atmospheric planet, but where I am quite bewildered. The detection of the unforeseen takes a toll on one when confide to the solitude of an ill powered ship. I sometimes wonder if they are mere hallucination. Fragments.. it is all I get out here... there must be something.... something that has been causing the interference... breadcrumb in day 1 Chezinu: it had to be done Chezinu: I had to shoot first referencing events of day 2 lololol | ||
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On March 03 2013 13:58 grush57 wrote: Surely atleast some scum tried to switch to Geript. I doubt scum would get in the position for both candidates to be scum. On March 03 2013 14:10 MilkSuckler wrote: Agreed (somewhat) geript (6): DoctorHelvetica, geript, Chezinu, jcarlsoniv, MilkSuckler, glurio, What do you think about JCarlsoniv grush57? y? You agree that the candidates are probably not both scum but you think Geript is scum? What gives? | ||
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On March 03 2013 14:39 MilkSuckler wrote: I asid, agreed (somehwat).. + I misread what he said, i thought he meant some candidates on GERIPT are scum (not that Geript and chezinu) are scum. So whats your latest, I haven't heard from you in a long time. Not nearly as convinced on Geript scum as many people seem to be. Besides that, unless you have specific questions I'd prefer to wait for the daypost. | ||
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On March 03 2013 14:45 MilkSuckler wrote: Aquanim Fair enough; but Geript might be worth having light discourse over. What do you think is not sticking so far? I dont need to you to defend his town-hood, just, obviously some points that have been raised I assume you beleive are easily explainable by town motives? Doing stupid stuff, OMGUS, making bad cases and being paranoid about vets aren't scum tells. My impressions of the cases on Geript are that they make him bad, not scum. Also he was the counterwagon to Chezinu. | ||
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On March 03 2013 14:54 WaveofShadow wrote: As is they only get 1 KP tonight. If it goes as expected considering the number of deaths D1 should we expect only one death tonight or do we think they double-loaded bullets onto someone? I don't really see the purpose in speculating at this point... might as well wait for some actual evidence. | ||
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On March 03 2013 15:18 MilkSuckler wrote: Counterwagon.. i been on geript since Day1? i suggest you read NMM37 .. his filter is about 2 pages long (its 4 pages, but some is post-game and pre-game comments) There is no similarity behind the two... ...interesting. Main difference I see is that geript's posts are shorter and he expresses less opinions here (comparing only to day 1, since he died night one in the newbie and he didn't come under a huge amount of pressure there, unlike day 2 here). This is a normal-sized game though and there's a lot less tolerance for differing opinions in this thread as opposed to a newbie game. Do you think his differing behaviour here cannot be explained by that? | ||
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On March 03 2013 17:09 Mocsta wrote: It is the way he chooses to push his agenda. I think there is a clear difference in that behaviour. Yeah I have no idea what this means. Could you be more explicit? What is different in the way he "pushes his agenda"? alsi in a bigger game i think it is easier to have different opinions. Not sure why u think there is less tolerance. I would quote wade yelling at everyone for not voting chezinu two hours into day two, and toad and layabout calling everyone terrible for not considering them confirmed town, etc. etc. but you know what I can't be assed. | ||
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On March 03 2013 17:51 Mocsta wrote: Im not home. Will flesh this out for u day3. Frankly i cant see how u see similarities in play. But will deal with yhis day3 assuming i am around For reference whenever you return to this I do see differences between his play here and in the newbie. What I want to know is exactly why those differences are indicative of a scum mentality, rather than the different environment (i.e. under attack by vets and in a larger game). | ||
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ObviousOne - Hide Spoiler - Obvious' play was bloody useless for the first half of D1. I think he overreacted a lot to my pressure, and his N1 case on me was pretty terrible. However. If you read his case on me as a defence of himself (pointing out that everything he thinks I've accused him of is stuff I've kinda done) it makes sense. It might not be particularly good play, but Obvious has been tilted at me all game, and this case does reflect that. A lot of his play hasn't been all that good and he doesn't like me much but my gut's starting to tell me that OO is town. I don't like it much but there you are. | ||
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On March 03 2013 20:15 geript wrote: @Aqua I read all your stuff on OO and his responses. I can understand why you could want to target him. I get that. But all his quotes look vanilla to me. I just don't get how you don't see that especially if you think I'm town. Honestly, that's probably my biggest issue as I think you're defending me to look good to some extent. I mean it makes you look shitting now but when I flip it might help you look better. Yeah he looks town now I agree. Early day 1 all he was doing was useless posts and some scumread (on you IIRC) that made absolutely no sense. I called him out on it, he overreacted so I pressured him a little more. He started posting usefully and towny towards the end of day 1 and by the end of night 1 I thought he was town. The end. | ||
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On March 03 2013 20:30 geript wrote: No, I thought he was town while you were attacking him. Call it starsenses, call it whatever you want. In rereading, and specifically thinking that the dude is disengaged from the game. Nothing particularly scummy about not wanting to play but feeling obligated to. Yeah I can sympathise with that. But it's whatever man, I think we're all agreed that I'm getting lynched tomorrow so you really shouldn't have to worry about it; like we all know that no matter what I flip, everyone's going to be saying "no reason to read him, dude's terrible." If you survive the night I'll wager 5 internet points that you don't get lynched tomorrow. A little bird has whispered in my ear. | ||
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On March 03 2013 20:49 Mocsta wrote: Aqua... Why r u so certain geript will be safe. I'd prefer to leave this till the daypost. And why do u think he may be a viable nk target vigilantes | ||
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jcarlsoniv, hassybaby, macho man, restraining order jcarlsoniv: generally useless, voted against the chezinu wagon= hassybaby: Nothing's changed since yesterday. Probably not worth a lynch at this point though, unless we seriously can't agree on anything better. Macho Man: Toad (who's familiar with Iamp's meta) was positive of MM scum. Macho's filter looks kinda useless for an experienced player. Strongly proposed a hassybaby lynch D2... either they're not scum together or Macho Man realised Hassy was going to go inactive and decided to bus him for cred (a la Sylencia/Temil scumteam in Newbie 34). This is sustained into N2. Restraining Order: Hasn't done much. All of two posts in D2. sheep onto chezinu wagon indeed looks like a bus. Would expect more effort even from scum but the current situation has to be pretty disheartening. ... my actual plan is to sheep Wade and hope for the best. I expect JJ to be roleblocked and someone (probably Wade) to be dead. Depending on 3P maybe someone else too. Can't imagine scum think it would be a good use of their time to kill JJ, and it's pretty much established that scum has a RB. Alternatively roleblock Vivax, kill JJ. If the scum aren't all in that group I would look at {glurio, geript, WoS, layabout, TestSubject, grush}. On March 03 2013 20:49 Mocsta wrote: Aqua... Why r u so certain geript will be safe. Because I think Wade thinks geript is town. + Show Spoiler + On March 03 2013 08:10 layabout wrote: Defence against what? right now we have: vivax aquanim geript themachoman testsubject glurio chez choas bear hassababy jcarlsoniv restraining order grush obviousone jj who are all afk or playing retardedly enough to make me want to inflict physical harm upon them or both. That list is too big. On March 04 2013 06:11 layabout wrote: Wait a minute. Player X claims jailer. Player X expects to live through the night. Now forgive me if i am wrong but wouldn't that suggest player X might not really be a town jailer? So jj is scum. Since toad was roleblocked, vivax must be lying about beingroleblocked to allow for jj's claim and thus jj and vivax must both be scum. You can add yourself to that list now. ----- On February 27 2013 09:15 Wade Fell wrote: JungleJorge just UGHGHGHGHGH STOP BEING YOU BE SOMEONE BETTER On February 27 2013 09:49 Wade Fell wrote: JJ you're just so bad just share your thoughts. they're terrible but just share all of them god | ||
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On March 04 2013 09:11 MilkSuckler wrote: OK.. so aqua wants to lynch JJ i presume? ? I have no idea why you think this, uncounterclaimed JK is essentially confirmed town he may be bad but that's an argument for another day. | ||
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On March 03 2013 20:36 Aquanim wrote: Yeah I can sympathise with that. If you survive the night I'll wager 5 internet points that you don't get lynched tomorrow. A little bird has whispered in my ear. For reference I am not in fact a cop. Considering scum had a framer they should probably have just framed geript though. Time for some logic. - Two roleblocks observed N1. Could concievably be a RB on Hassybaby or a double-roleblock on Toad/Vivax but I doubt it. - JJ claims not to have roleblocked N2, only claimed roleblock afaik is on me. Possible conclusions: - Town has two roleblockers to scum's none. This seems ridiculous. - Town has JJ, scum has a roleblocker who roleblocked me. If I were scum I could be faking it, but given the much better RB targets I have no idea how this would ever result in town cred. WIFOM at best. - Three roleblockers, there's a roleblock yet to be claimed yesterday and today. I don't believe this either. I don't see why Vivax would claim single-shot vigilante N1 as serial killer. | ||
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On March 04 2013 11:27 layabout wrote: He was attacking me without good reason. I don't regret that, your reply improved my read on you a lot. His prioty lynch target was hassybaby (who was absent and the kind of target i would expect scum to go for over town). I thought hassy was scum and I still suspect it. Kept hoping he would actually come back and play. He asked questions like this which are needlessly aggressive and unnecessary if he would just read the posts in question. It's like he is trying to look like he is doing something by being agressive but without a goal in mind. Frankly the roleclaim alone is enough to lynch him. Until then i didn't see him as a reasonable lynch. My play in day 2 is generally bad. WF screaming at me for a page for voting my scumread over his didn't exactly improve my attitude to the game and by now I basically don't give a shit. I agree the roleblock on me makes basically no sense. | ||
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On March 04 2013 12:04 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Vivax being sk would explain his attitude. Lynch him last. If Vivax shoots anyone again ever again he is SK. If he doesn't he's not. It's not that hard. | ||
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On March 04 2013 12:18 TestSubject893 wrote: I think the idea is that if he were SK he wouldn't be telling us it was him. That too. | ||
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On March 04 2013 12:25 MilkSuckler wrote: Anyways.. its simple.. Vivax is a lynch later candidate so the two for today that are front runners are: Geript and Aquanim now.. aquanim is against Geript, and surely wouldnt vote himself. So i suspect it is up to Aqua to convince us of an alternative. If he backflips and supports a Geript lynch, I am all for then lynching Aquanim. Well my other surviving candidates are Hassybaby and jcarlsoniv. Hassybaby's not worth lynching. jcarlsoniv's hard defence of chezinu speaks for itself. I've had second thoughts about Macho since he cheerfully voted chezinu. Also his interest in chezinu's mason logs. I have no delusions of convincing anyone not to vote geript so unless you really want to see a more detailed case I can't be bothered. Given the sheer number of people who are convinced he's scum maybe I'm just being terrible, I guess we'll see. | ||
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- his weird "elect scum for mayor" plan - scumreads on OO and jcarlsoniv he never followed up - late sheeps onto Prom and Chezinu wagons - that's pretty much it Does anyone have any reason to think this guy's town? because I can't find one | ||
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On March 04 2013 18:40 ObviousOne wrote: @Aqua: Interestingly enough he wanted to do a vote switch from Chez based on Chez not being shot by a town day-vig. But he is interested in lynching Jcarl and I think that's bonus points for him right now. Still not interested in a randombum lynch. He looks like he's trying to figure stuff out. Well there's only two scum left and unless randombum and jcarlsoniv are the last two scum I don't see why scum randombum wouldn't attack a suspicious-looking jcarlsoniv. After all, randombum has to do something... | ||
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On March 04 2013 18:57 ObviousOne wrote: Have you checked Geript's meta as mentioned before? Did you give it a look? It's night and day. Something is off about Geript this game and he's overplaying the martyr right now. I've done the martyring thing too, I martyred HARD in my second or third newbie game and I finally picked myself up and at least tried to do what any town player should do in his position: try to organize thoughts into cases and push them regardless of how terrible I looked. Yeah I looked at Geript's meta from the newbie and I agree it's different. The game itself is a lot different though. IIRC he died night one in the newbie and never came under much pressure. A newbie mini has a much, much different dynamic from a normal, larger-sized game too. I can't imagine my play looks anything like the last newbie I played either, it certainly doesn't feel like it. The frusuration I feel in geript's posts with this game pretty much mirrors my own. | ||
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Also, scum's first instinct is to survive and OMGUSing Wade at this point was basically suicide. | ||
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On March 04 2013 19:55 Wade Fell wrote: I understand why you think that-- and in fact, there is a not-entirely-small part of me that agrees with your sentiment here. After all, would scum really keep up such a facade, be so angry, lash out so desperately and helplessly at me in a way that could only hurt himself? It certainly feels like it could be the hissyfit of a hopeless townie, fueled by anger and fear-- and it falls in line with geript's crazed ravings from earlier. However, that small part of me must be silenced, because it is the part of me that is not rational, but rather, attempts to rationalize. It sees anger and emotion and it feels rather than thinks. It imagines itself cornered and hopeless and lashing out at its attackers desperately and self-destructively. It is seductive. It has a logic all its own, doesn't it? It is wrong. Geript is lashing out, yes, and he is doing so in a profoundly unhelpful way-- abandoning his reads for an omgus rather than writing cases on the scumreads he hashed out the previous night. This is probably the perfect act for scum who finds himself utterly cornered, on par with Prom's disappearance or Chezinu's shenannies. Geript has no tools, no day vigilante shot to wave around, and unlike Prom he is the 4th of 5 scum and cannot afford to go quietly into the night. On the other hand, he must plan for the contingency of his defense, whatever it is, failing, and his final teammate attempting to win alone in the darkness. Whatever he does between now and his flip, he cannot give up associative tells, not when there is only one scum left besides himself. So he feigns anger, but he does it carefully-- no additional information or cases given out, just lashing at the two strongest townies remaining in the game. And geript is no ordinary anger-feigner, he is a skilled technician who works with mental patients-- he can feign anger like no other. This seed of doubt in your heart, it isn't based on geript hunting scum, giving out reads, or being useful or townlike in any fashion, even in mindset. A frustrated townie, even as he dies, tries to push his reads. Even when he OMGUSes, he is still OMGUSing for town. Even when he rages, he rages for the town. Geript is clever, but he must not give anything away with fake scumhunting, not when his teammate has to win the game alone. Don't let emotions cloud your logical judgement. A nice story you weave there. And I admit, quite reasonable. I'm by no means certain that Geript is town. On the grounds that we have a million billion mislynches and the game is so broken at the moment I am not desperate to not lynch him. My feeling is still that he's absolutely tilted town though. If I'm wrong - so be it. One way or another, we'll find out. It's hardly like you need my vote to lynch him, anyway. | ||
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On March 04 2013 20:12 Wade Fell wrote: Like, this level of "not remembering who your scumreads are" would be kind of understandable if he were going after someone who had been antagonizing him, like me. But Vivax? Come on, geript. So scummy. jeez you had to wait until now to make an actual point. That's a problem. To be honest I had his original suspicions of me as a point in his favour since my play has been frankly pretty shitty and everyone else who thought I was scum I have as probably town. The vote for Vivax is actually really really awful though. A scum Geript would know that though... | ||
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Assuming randombum is town simply because he's attacking the scummy-looking jcarlsoniv is indeed a pointless association case and that was was in fact the point of my post. | ||
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On March 04 2013 20:56 Wade Fell wrote: His odd words about lynching for information during D2 are also troubling, as well as his slowness to vote Chez (though he did verbally commit to such a vote early in the day). Well, now day 2's over I may as well explain what I was doing there. The Chezinu wagon was all well and good but I thought that committing to it in the first few hours of d2 and then not having anything else to discuss for the rest of the day wouldn't be as useful as discussing other stuff for the first half of the day or so and then consolidating. I never had any intention of *lynching* for information, only *voting* for information. Trouble is, once you call something a pressure vote it immediately ceases to exert any actual pressure... so I danced around the point of gathering information and hoped you'd take the hint. Obviously Hassybaby never showed up to be pressured and my vote on him was about as useful as iceskates for a parrot. The only thing that came of it was that Macho Man voted for Hassy too and strongly endorsed his lynch. Still not sure exactly what I make of that, though. | ||
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On March 05 2013 01:00 Vivax wrote: I won't focus much any more on this game tbh lessons restarted today and I've got a few other games starting soon. Most of the work here has been done so I feel free to drop my attention on this game. On March 05 2013 06:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I hate to say it but my interest level in this game has dropped to basically 0. Has nothing to do with lack of effort from the moderators, but when town goes 3 in a row and no one is really taking hard stances I don't know what to contribute. We've already won so anything I do now just feels like going through the motions. QFT On March 05 2013 02:41 geript wrote: So WF a few questions, how does Aqua look when I flip town? Even worse :/ Bah... look, with a new day I've reexamined my actual read of Geript (as opposed to the position of defending him which I got backed into by my own stupidity) and found it is mostly doubts, either way. That vote on Vivax is truly awful and has shaken what remains of my townread rather a lot. Given his play for the last day or two and the number of mislynches we have I think we all need to see a flip here, for better or for worse. I haven't been able to find a case that convinces me any more than this anywhere else and so: ##Vote: Geript | ||
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On March 05 2013 08:40 MilkSuckler wrote: The thing is he has been consistent in this approach all game. Suggesting a player tilted from the when his mayor campaign was insta-rejected. I don't think he tilted then, I think he tilted when it became clear he was going to be lynched regardless of anything he did from that point onwards. I have no idea why you think I think he tilted then. Again look at aquanim and his approach to entering all lynches. This guy loves being the critical thinker when town and putting down all others who are impulsive and obnoxious, if he thinks you`re not contributing... He tells y. There is none of that this game except for an rb which has no basis. Lynch aquanim Yeah my play is a lot different this game. What I've learned this game is that I straight-up can't play Mafia (the game) unless I have some power to affect the lynch, and some authority to in fact tell people they are being shit. It became clear to me between night one and mid day two that the quality of my reads and of my play would not be in any way responsible for the town win this game, we were just going to sheep vets to victory and as such I ceased to play properly at all. At this rate that will quite possibly get me lynched, but between increased external demands on my time and my opinion that that will only prolong the game rather than change the outcome I'm struggling to make myself care. I'ma stop angsting now and try to contribute in some way. | ||
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On March 05 2013 11:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote: oh actually scratch that RB Aquanim, wait for him to claim it then jump all over him saying there's no reason scum wouldn't rb vivax and he's a liar = a pretty good scum plan to force a mislynch so it's ultimately WIFOM Personally I have more trouble seeing why they wouldn't roleblock JJ. Vivax was probably just as likely to hit town as scum, as far as they knew. Also has anyone considered that scum RB may have been saved by a town JOAT? | ||
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scum KP may have been saved by a town JOAT | ||
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On March 04 2013 17:58 Aquanim wrote: Anyone here? I just read randombum's filter and it contains: - his weird "elect scum for mayor" plan - scumreads on OO and jcarlsoniv he never followed up - late sheeps onto Prom and Chezinu wagons - that's pretty much it Does anyone have any reason to think this guy's town? because I can't find one I haven't found anything hugely scum-indicative but he hasn't contributed much at all. I don't think he's followed up or committed to anything really, which is never a good sign. His meta as town in Themed and Parallel seems to me to be slightly more spontaneous than his play here - he interacts more with other players, and even though he died night one in Themed his filter is already nearly as long as in this game. Focusing on the geript lynch isn't accomplishing anything at this point. | ||
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On March 06 2013 03:46 layabout wrote: Off for the night, might as well say that i approve of the geript lynch but prefer aqua, and that hassy is probably scum/3rd party else he would have been modkilled already I thought that about Chaos Bear... but nope, so I wouldn't count on it. We can dream though. | ||
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On March 06 2013 06:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If I had to guess based on my gut who that would be it would be WoS or BlazingHand. You think scum BH would have hard-bussed Chezinu day 2 like he did, reducing scum KP to ONE? 0.o 0.o 0.o | ||
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On March 06 2013 09:17 JungleJorge wrote: I'll order every geript voter in order of terribleness: Everyone is terrible. I'd agree with you but voting Vivax was even worse. | ||
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On March 06 2013 09:31 JungleJorge wrote: Aren't you the guy who was roleblocked? How do you explain the night actions? Shouldn't you be even more suspicious that vivax is SK, since the alternative is that you are scum? 1) There are other reasons why scum KP might not have been effective. Town JOAT is probably most plausible. 2) If Vivax is SK it should be blindingly obvious tomorrow or the day after and we can vote him then. There's no point in lynching him before then. 3) Pretty sure Vivax is town, have been since before he claimed vigilante. | ||
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On March 06 2013 09:42 MilkSuckler wrote: Sorry, why is it more plausible for JOAT > SK (whether Vivax or not) Barring an extremely unlikely scenario, if there is an SK it must be Vivax and he must have really badly not thought through his vigilante claim. JOAT is not hugely likely but SK is even more unlikely and, I repeat, if Vivax is SK he MUST out himself by shooting every night and until then there is no point in worrying about it. If and when we conclude there is no SK, JOAT is the next reasonable hypothesis. | ||
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Are you certain that your JK did not go through? Can you check this with the hosts in any way? I want to know for certain what happened with your JK. Answer this BEFORE THE DAYPOST in case you die. | ||
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On March 06 2013 14:32 MilkSuckler wrote: FML fail EBWOP @Aquanim I am not sold on JOAT. If a JOAT medic save occured, the hit recipient + medic would be notified of save. I can understand the medic saying nothing (as 2 scum left)... but.. the hit recipient saying nothing is weird. I think much scenarios are; Withheld shot or Hit Mutant. Considering scum position, withheld shot makes no sense; I expect a mutant to be in the mix Trouble is how little sense mutant makes too :/ Also, I have enquired and I was wrong before - scum must select a player to carry out the kill(s) and that player may be roleblocked to prevent the kill. Which is why I am very interested to hear exactly what happened to JJ's night action. | ||
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On March 06 2013 14:55 MilkSuckler wrote: Have u tried to PM? I would love the answer to, but I suspect we won't receive it. Well it's none of my business what happened to someone else's action so they won't tell me. If JJ asks "Did my action go through" I don't see why they wouldn't answer that. | ||
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'kay then. I'm pretty sure this only leaves possibilies where someone is bad. Not much point in further speculation until the day, as far as I can see. | ||
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On March 07 2013 03:48 layabout wrote: Well in case i die you should lynch aquanim tomorrow, Why? In case you haven't noticed, me faking a roleblock on myself as scum, and then claiming it after scum KP disappeared would be pretty daft. | ||
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On March 07 2013 02:16 TestSubject893 wrote: Sorry I didn't get this post earlier, I got caught up doing some stuff. Without further ado, my thoughts on randombum's filter: ... Conclusion: Don't lynch. He hasn't been the towniest of towns, but nothing in his posts really screams scum to me. So find a better lynch, then. | ||
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On March 07 2013 06:18 layabout wrote: why the sudden urge to stay alive? Now that the game's not a slam-dunk I have some more motivation to play. D3 was not fun. Leaving now, see you later. Probably. | ||
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In particular I want to see what you think makes him scum as opposed to bored town. | ||
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The rest of Glurio's posts are covered with a blanket "overall lack of activity and concern for the lynch" which is again true but unfortunately describes about half of the players in this game. Glurio hasn't contributed much but this case isn't enough to convince me. In fact, this reads as a pretty half-hearted attempt by a player with IamP's experience. | ||
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On March 07 2013 13:28 MilkSuckler wrote: I am not sure what you expect out of a case? Your efforts on OO had ?3? points mildly expanded. That was, what, three hours into the game? Anyway that's not the point. My point is that I don't think these two particular points make Glurio scum necessarily. Townies sometimes choose to contribute in ways that are stereotypically scummy. I'm not complaining about the effort put in, I'm complaining that I don't think these are super-indicative of scum. Which is not to say that I'm wedded to the idea that Glurio is town, just that these points aren't convincing enough on their own. A case is made to bandwagon support for a lynch typically by identifying scummy behaviour. I think this case succeeded in that and I do not think the quotes were cherry picked either. It demonstrates examples you, yourself admit can be interpreted as scummy. Are you able to summarise the remainder of his filter differently? I thought "overall lack of activity and concern for the lynch" is a sound synopsis. Yes it adequately defines Glurio. Seeing as how it describes HALF OF THE PLAYERS adequately it's not scummy enough to convince me that Glurio is scum. tl;dr This case does not convince me. I would welcome a convincing case. On March 07 2013 13:27 The Macho Man wrote: maybe you should i dont know look at my past cases... that i have made in other games....... I may do that. i dont know how anyone can read glurios filter and possibly think he is town. He is totally disconnected and hides behind dead player that is fucking scummy. Now the bolded is an interesting point and one I will explore further. Unfortunately I think a number of townies are probably disconnected from the game following Blazinghand's one-man "wagon of justice" driving for the last two days but still. | ||
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On March 07 2013 13:45 The Macho Man wrote: show me the other players that make a huge useless summary post and hide behind dead people. I said half of the players have a lack of activity and concern for the lynch. Which would be... you, Grush, Glurio, TestSubject, jcarlsoniv, randombum, ObviousOne, Layabout, WaveofShadow, Vivax and JungleJorge. And me too, at least yesterday. Discounting Mocsta because his filter is literally a seventh of the thread and DoctorHelvetica because he ran for office day 1 and started pushing geript. Town doesn't have this in the bag, guys. | ||
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On March 07 2013 13:47 jcarlsoniv wrote: Oh look randombum, you're starting to think like a townie! A nice change of pace. @Aquanim: What are your opinions of randombum's case on me? I'd prefer to hear what you have to say about it first. | ||
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No, that's not how it works. I want to know what you think of his CASE. That's all the information you should need to have an opinion about it. On the other hand, what you say could very well contribute to what I have to say. It contains some interesting points but I'm not voting you just yet. Can't say it's changed my opinion of randombum a whole lot. Your turn. Tell us why you're not scum. | ||
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On March 07 2013 14:41 jcarlsoniv wrote: Aqua, you've been disgustingly non-committal the entire game. Mate, you're not an unlikely lynch today. I had no intention of committing to anything until I saw your response. Telling you where I thought the holes were in randombum's case, allowing you to exploit them to defend yourself without having to see them yourself, would have been a waste of everybody's time. | ||
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On March 07 2013 15:04 MilkSuckler wrote: All To re-emphasise the obvious. This is the first time all game we haven't had a clear front runner for lynch, and with ~18hrs left I am getting concerned about consolidation (mainly because most of the action will occur whilst I am asleep & there are signs of strong disagreement). I suggest for this cycle we stick with the 3 candidates seriously proposed: (1) Glurio (2) jcarlsoniv (3) Aquanim Well if someone brings a convincing case against someone not on that list I have no intention of not following it based on some silly policy. | ||
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General Trends + Show Spoiler + I'm definitely a slow reader so hopefully I can get some more of my thoughts in once this thread stops outpacing me, lol. I really don't understand how so people are getting to the conclusion that because we don't have enough control over the vote to try and make the person we lynch pardoner we should make a good player pardoner. Am I missing something? You're gonna have to help me here. What do you mean when you say "sheep this"? On February 27 2013 10:30 TestSubject893 wrote: @layabout: If you don't want me to respond to something, why even post it? On top of that, if you think my response is invalid, why don't you want more explanation? Your last few posts directed at me have really rubbed me the wrong way. I'd like some explanation. Did you misread what I wrote or what? The way I see those posts you're picking a fight with someone just for the sake of it. And the most obvious explanation for that would be that you want to look like you're contributing to town, without doing much. These quotes don't cover it on their own, but my impression of TestSubject's play as a whole is that TestSubject is minimizing himself and trying not to draw attention to himself. By comparison his play in NMM37 was much more assertive. @Mocsta, Glurio and WoS, you played with him in 37, do you agree with this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395714&user=52297 There's a general trend in the totality of TestSubject's filter this game towards self-doubt and timidity. I mean like every second post. IMO this is completely different to his meta in 37 and furthermore it is scummy; a scum player, particularly a newbie, would be expected to 'hide in the corner' and be passive. I also don't get the impression that he's trying to learn anything from the thread. None of the few questions he ask have particular direction or make me think they're serving a purpose. Day One + Show Spoiler + TestSubject spent a LOT of time day one talking about a) Pardoner policy and b) setting up the election at the end of the day, both of which are nice and safe topics for scum. He also threw a bunch of noncommittal doubt on DoctorH: On February 27 2013 09:35 TestSubject893 wrote: I've been working all day and just now got caught up on the thread. Here's what I've got. Promethelax is still my top scum read and I will be voting for a mayor that wants to kill him. Jungle Jorge and ObviousOne, in that order, are next on my scum list. I think we're placing a little too much trust in DoctorHelvetica. It seems like some people are treating him as nearly confirmed town, and frankly he's not even close to that in my book. Moreover, I'm afraid that should DrH get either of the elected roles, his perception as confirmed town will only be furthered, without him doing anything more pro-town. Most of his cred has come from telling people they aren't scumhunting enough and how great scumhunting is, and while these things are pro-town, its not something that's hard to fake. On top of that, the only contribution he's made on the scumhunting front is to really amplify the pressure on Prome. While again, this is great, the fact that he seems to be distancing himself from it slightly in this post + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2013 04:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Weird that you chose to respond to that specifically. Maybe not, maybe I'm being paranoid. And yes, I'm still pushing Prome for the day. He basically martyred so he should die. I'm working from 1-10 PST tonight so unfortunately I'm not gonna be able to be here to push him. Since all discussion is built on this foundation of lynching Prome, it's the best outcome for us right now. At least for Day 1. I would never say to lynch for information, I absolutely believe he is scum but there is no sense in acting on hunches and getting distracted. Don't fuck it up guys keep focused on the goal of finding scum. Everything else comes second. I think it's likely that DrH is town, but lets make him prove that to us before we show him so much trust. Hopefully, we've gotten it right with Prome, in which case DrH will be deserving of the town cred he seems to currently have. With the this in mind, I'm going to vote for someone who is going lynch Prome, but whose election I think will not stunt discussion and critique of the mayor himself. ##Vote: VisceraEyes I know, I know, there's a distinction between "confirmed town" and "likely town" but still this post is just pointless. Night One + Show Spoiler + On March 01 2013 14:34 TestSubject893 wrote: Ok, so I rewrote this post like 5 times and changed my mind back and forth, and at the end of it all I ended up not coming up with as great of thoughts as I had originally thought I had when it was all coming togther. I'll start with the basics I suppose. I agree with DrH on Toad. He's the top of the list for me. From there I feel like one of either Aqua or OO is scum. I was gonna write up some reasons on why its OO, but when I was doing that I kind of talked myself into thinking that its Aqua. After that grush is looking suspicious to me, but he's in that category of players where everyone talks about their crazy meta and how it needs to be taken into account and I'm not currently taking it into account, so take that for what its worth. The bulk of my thoughts were gonna be about how when I read Chez asking the questions about the 3rd parties and claiming he didn't know how to add, I thought for sure he was a 3rd party just putting on a show. Because immediately after that WF jumped on him as scum I thought that he has the same read as me and was mafia trying to get the 3rd party lynched. This all still added up even after Chez shot if he is town because mafia wouldn't know for sure he wasn't 3rd party in the time in between. When I was writing it all up I changed my mind on it. WF just isn't scummy looking enough to me outside of that, so I ended up scrapping it. It is something that really jumped out at me though, so if WF becomes the center of attention later, its something we could relook at. This post. Originally, I (and I believe many other people) got a town read on TestSubject from this post. In hindsight, I can't see why saying he doesn't have any decent reads makes him town. Maybe it's slightly better than not posting anything at all, but "oh shit sorry guys I couldn't come up with anything" isn't really good enough to make him town just based on this. His statement that "one of Aqua or OO is scum" doesn't have any firm reasoning behind it, which he admits later. Day Two + Show Spoiler + On March 02 2013 07:08 TestSubject893 wrote: Chez's behavior after his shot is too just too scummy to not lynch him. I'm putting my vote on him. ##vote: Chez Now there's a vote with some conviction.[/sarcasm] And even after that he tries to swing the lynch onto Geript. On March 03 2013 01:59 TestSubject893 wrote: I could get on board with that. I guess the questions are 'are Chez and Geript both so scummy that at this point there is no way either avoids being lynched?', and 'can we assure enough votes get to geript that we don't accidentally no-lynch from neither having 11?'. I'd answer the former with yes, and the latter with I don't know. I'm reading this as if WoS knows for sure that geript's alignment is town. Am I misreading it? WoS doesn't seem scummy to me, but this looks like a scumslip. Everything Else Until Now No real further contributions, but the overall trend in his posting continues. I don't feel like going into depth here because everything between the Chezinu lynch and the start of today hurts my brain and basically nobody contributed much anyway. Association with Restraining Order + Show Spoiler + On March 07 2013 16:56 MilkSuckler wrote: TestSubject Want to have a go explaining this one.... -------- On March 04 2013 05:12 JungleJorge wrote: Don't lynch geript tomorrow, lynch RO. On March 04 2013 05:17 JungleJorge wrote: If I live through the night I'll bother explaining. Otherwise I'll flip town and you take my word for it. On March 04 2013 05:37 TestSubject893 wrote: JJ, it is possible that they in fact both are mafia. Is there a reason you think we get more out lynching RO compared to the more unanimously scummy geript? Conclusion He's been lurking pretty hard, hasn't expressed firm opinions on anything and his tone overall feels like he's trying to hide. Your wagons are cool and all guys but TestSubject is scum. | ||
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On March 07 2013 20:07 glurio wrote: I still like to highlight my earlier post: So i want to lynch jcarlsoniv today. ##Vote: jcarlsoniv That isn't an acceptable reason to not be voting for TestSubject. You think jcarlsoniv *might* be the bartender? Seriously? You're going to have to justify your vote a little better than that. | ||
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On March 07 2013 20:16 glurio wrote: I find jcarlsoniv to be much scummier. I believe he is either 3rd party or scum. (Right now im obviously leaning 3rd party.) Thats why i vote for him. What exactly about him do you find scummy? | ||
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On March 07 2013 20:43 glurio wrote: Look at randombums case it's quite good. I have some issues with randombum's case. + Show Spoiler + On March 07 2013 12:33 randombum wrote: I don't think glurio is scum. Or at least I don't think he's scummier than a lot of people here. I've left this alone for a while because there's been a clear consensus on who to lynch and I didn't want to divert the thread, but I think it's time we lynched jcarl. He's been riding as scummy looking in the back of a lot of people's mind, but nobody has come out super strongly against him. His filter is short enough that everybody can go read it right now. Here are the things out of his filter that I would like you to notice and reach the same conclusion as me. That he is scum. Utter lack of commitment to reads. I've pointed this out before but, starts with a case on vayesh/vivax and drops them with minimal explanation. He then tries to push JJ because everybody thought JJ looked scummy, but now that JJ looks good his response is: + Show Spoiler + On March 04 2013 09:18 jcarlsoniv wrote: Yeah, I no longer believe JJ to be scum. After the RB claim and the subsequent RO flip, JJ looks pretty good. I'm not sure about aqua, but I'm somewhat inclined to listen to WF this go around. Jcarl reads will follow wherever the town is leaning. He will also drop down his "reads" with no backing whatsoever. Dropping a scumread on an un-counterclaimed power role (JungleJorge) IS NOT SCUMMY. This point from randombum is really sloppy. Dropping a scumread on Vayesh given additional information (and the advent of actual useful play from Vayesh, as I recall) IS NOT SCUMMY. And I don't think he ever had a serious case on Vivax in the first place. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On March 06 2013 11:30 jcarlsoniv wrote: Not quite sure at the moment. I was fairly sure that either geript or hassy would flip scum. I feel like there's one (if not both) in the following list: WoS, DrH, WF, randombum, Macho Man Need to relook though. He throws down 5 names in a game of 15 remaining players. One of whom has since flipped town. More importantly he doesn't say why. He says he will relook, but it's been over a day since he claimed he would re-look and hasn't come back with anything. Maybe because everybody keeps ignoring me and goes after people not named jcarl. It's even more damning because literally 2 posts after he puts + Show Spoiler + On March 06 2013 14:26 jcarlsoniv wrote: DrH himself (the one you've been so keen to buddy up to most of the thread) said earlier this game: Someone who says they are going to do something and never does it is probably scum (I may be paraphrasing). But he hasn't come back to do what he said he would do. Not actually making the reads he said he would is bad, I agree. By comparison, TestSubject hasn't even promised to give reads. TS has done nothing. This thread is pretty damn long and I can understand if it's taken jcarlsoniv more time than he thought to come to a conclusion (it certainly did for me). That being said I would really like to see jcarlsoniv's reads. + Show Spoiler + Hard defense of chezniu. It's self evident in his filter, but he clearly defended chezniu and hard. He claims hard defending scum is a town tell because only an idiot mafia wouldn't bus his teammate when chez was clearly next to be lynched. But chez's lynch wasn't truly set in stone. If you look at the final vote-counts http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400335¤tpage=6#105 Chez only had 13 votes. And RO (known scum) could switch at any time. Furthermore if they somehow manage to cause a no-lynch then they get an extra night kill. If they are super lucky they somehow get people to forget chez and lynch geript the next day giving them another night with 2 kills. Point being, he tried really hard to save his scum mate, but the plan backfired so he goes: "Oh, that's not a scum tell its actually a town tell to try to push a lynch off a mafia and into a townie." I don't buy it. I don't quite know what to make of his hard defence of chezinu. He does have a point that chezinu was clearly going to be the lynch (geript wagon never really took off D2, despite the number of votes it ended up with - BH would have squashed it with fire if it got really threatening). WIFOM at best here. TestSubject on the other hand voted Chezinu and then contributed to swinging the lynch onto Geript, without unvoting Chezinu. All the votes were on one or the other, one of them was going to get a majority - why not just vote Geript? Answer: Doesn't want to look too scummy when it doesn't work. Or if it does, for that matter. + Show Spoiler + Contradictory It starts with: Willing to sheep BH on a geript vote. Then says after geript and hassy die Bold mine. Into He is now trying to make Wade look bad, when he has been willing to sheep him and stated that he felt wades reads were correct? I'm gonna be honest, I badly wanted to rub Wade's nose in the fact that he'd mislynched Geript too. I see no reason to think jcarlsoniv is scum simply because he has less self-control than I do. I believe I've shown that for every point in randombum's case, either it doesn't make jcarlsoniv scummy or TestSubject looks worse on the same metric. Understand: This is not a town read on jcarlsoniv. This is a statement that TestSubject is much more likely to flip scum than jcarlsoniv. | ||
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I want one of two things from everyone who posts before I come back: 1) A vote for TestSubject OR 2) An explanation for why they're not voting for TestSubject (issues with my case, or reasons why they think their case is stronger Oh, and Layabout: "Aqua is scum LYNCH HIM" is not sufficient reason for you not to be voting TestSubject. I've explained why I think the cases on jcarlsoniv and glurio are not strong enough for my vote. As for the other mentioned targets today: Aquanim - I'm not scum WaveofShadow - I'd prefer not to lynch someone based solely on an association case, even with a flipped scum. MS I believe you've expressed the opinion that WoS is town-y. You're going to need more than some tenuous association with Restraining Order to lynch WoS. | ||
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On March 07 2013 23:51 layabout wrote: i'd would've sworn aqua had pointed it out but it appear he didn't killing vivax today would be a sack of stupid. I was asleep. Killing vivax today would indeed be a sack of stupid. JJ, if I wanted to start lynching uncounterclaimed power roles today I'd start with you. Also, Vivax is town and was town before he claimed Vigilante. | ||
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On March 07 2013 23:26 MilkSuckler wrote: Aquanim, The case on TestSubject893 hasn't swayed me. Maybe my heuristics are flawed, but, I still see honesty and confusion in his posts; so my vote won't go there. I see no honesty, merely prevarication. On March 07 2013 23:27 layabout wrote: We are not lynching testsubject since he looks town. Care to explain this? Did you even read his damn filter? TS has done NOTHING helpful this entire game. | ||
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On March 07 2013 23:36 The Macho Man wrote: how about we stop being silly and actually listen to me..... glurios one thing he contributed is to think he is going after third party it looks like to me he has no intrest in actually finding scum.... thats scummy He is by far the best lynch. That was indeed awful and if when I come back before lynch it's a choice between no-lynch and glurio I will vote glurio. Same for jcarlsoniv, though that lynch is giving me more bad feelings. | ||
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On March 08 2013 02:09 TestSubject893 wrote: In NMM37 I claimed tracker in what was effectively my first post. You can imagine that being the obvious night target might change how I play. On top of that, the I for the most part disagreed with what some of the town players were saying in that game and felt the need to steer public opinion. I am much more in alignment with most players reads in this game and haven't found a need to be as vocal to get the suspicion onto the right people. Sure, whatever. I'd expect a townie you to be trying to make *something* happen in the thread though. Show me one example of a question that fits this description. You're just making things up to support your conclusion. Let me rephrase this. I don't see any unifying, scumhunting mentality behind your play as a whole. You're asking questions, but I can't see anything coming from any of them. Since you already had my filter open, how about you take a look at the posts I already made addressing this. If those aren't enough for you I'm happy to add more, but I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself. Yeah you came up with a plausible explanation, but there are often plausible explanations for things scum do. Same as day 1. I've explained already, and am happy to explain more, but I'm not going to repeat myself. How on earth is this trying to swing the lynch to geript. I say in the post you quoted that a no-lynch is concerning to me, and again in my filter you can see that its my opinion that a lynch of chez or geript would have been fine with me, but I want to avoid a no-lynch at all costs. You're putting words in my mouth and drawing ridiculous conclusions. I'm not comfortable with your willingness to swing to geript given that you've already said "we must lynch chezinu today". This isn't damning on its own I agree but it certainly doesn't give me a town read on you. What trend? You haven't established one. Geript was shitting up the thread for all of D3, and honestly I'm not sure what you expected me to post. How is this a mark against me? The trend towards you not ever posting any decent reads or thoughts and displaying no inclination to hunt scum, which continues even now. Is this a joke? Of course I don't have an explanation. Are you gonna ask vivax why he got the same response here as prom who flipped scum? How about the one that really does stick out: the maybe on layabout? Looks like RO is trying to be ready to take credit for knowing layabout was scum without drawing attention to him. BETTER LYNCH LAYABOUT NOW, AMIRITE? So your point here is that I had a null read on RO? Yeah, I did, you caught me. He wasn't really a high priority to lynch for me. Better kill everyone who thought that way, all dozen of us. Yeah I should have been clearer about this. All I was trying to show here was that your interactions with RO aren't inconsistent with scum, not that they directly make you scum. This case is entirely baseless and frankly, I don't see how it could be anything but an attempt to distract town from reaching a majority before the day is over. For now my vote stays on jcarl because we need to get one of the scummy players to 8. Should we need to I'd be glad to switch my vote to the clearly panicked Aquanim. Or, alternatively, you're scum. How is this case "panicked"? wtf. | ||
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- Pretty much all of the points after the first one are "this isn't incompatible with scum, but not directly scummy" - TestSubject hasn't done ANYTHING of scumhunting worth all game - His tone throughout the entire game is hesitant and non-committal - After defending my case he leaves without having anything further to say about the cases today than "oh look jcarlson hasn't responded to randombum let's vote him" a few hours earlier. Is this a man who cares about the lynch in < 8 hours? No no it is not. There have been two kinds of defences of TestSubject so far: - "Oh he looks townie" Have you actually reassessed him since N1? - "Such-and-such a point is weak" Yeah some of them are but the thing which actually makes him scum (i.e. his overall tone and content) is not. | ||
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On March 08 2013 06:10 layabout wrote: wave those people are not seriously pushing lynches they are just wasting our time with votes that will not count towards anything I am seriously pushing the TS lynch because he is scum. I am willing to sheep on another wagon in the interests of obtaining a majority. Glurio is my preference in this case. | ||
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On March 08 2013 06:12 Aquanim wrote: - After defending my case he leaves without having anything further to say about the cases today than "oh look jcarlson hasn't responded to randombum let's vote him" a few hours earlier. Is this a man who cares about the lynch in < 8 hours? No no it is not. EBWOP: I've realised this isn't quite true, he actually does mention the jcarlsoniv case again. If he hadn't done anything that would be incredibly scummy - his lacklustre comment leaves me at null on this point. Carry on. | ||
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On March 08 2013 06:23 TestSubject893 wrote: Ok, aqua, the only thing of any substance I took from that post was this: And this too is BS. Nowhere do I say "Chez has to be lynched today". I say what amounts to "Chez has to be lynched". How is responding positively to someone saying "If we're going to kill both Chez and geript, maybe we should kill geript first" contradictory to this? The rest of that posts amounts to you saying "Yeah, those are good reason for doing stuff, but do you know who really wants to be able to explain their actions? SCUM!". Your case is bad; trying to stick with it even though I've shown you its bad is a scumtell. The case isn't panicked; you are. There is no reason to make such a terrible case unless you're trying to distract town. If it weren't 3 hours before the lynch with no votes on you, I'd demand we kill you now. Instead I guess I'll have to make due with demanding we kill you tomorrow. You want to show my case is terrible? How about giving some decent reads or hunting scum FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS ENTIRE GAME. | ||
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On March 08 2013 06:26 TestSubject893 wrote: Are you telling me the only reason you think I'm scum is because other people have written more cases than me? If this is the only indicator to you, why is grush not 1000 times scummier? Grush is notoriously useless. You are not. And it's not just cases, I can't see any indication that you're looking for scum at all. When I read your filter my feeling is that you're saying "don't look at me, I'm not here", not "which one of you lot is scum?" That being said I will consider Grush again tomorrow. | ||
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On March 08 2013 06:35 TestSubject893 wrote: Just because I don't spam the thread doesn't mean I'm not looking for scum. I've been asking questions when I need to, and sharing reads when I need to. Just because other people are more vocal doesn't indicate anything about me. You're drawing the conclusions you want to draw. If the entirety of your read is based on that one point alone, why write that whole case? I'll tell you why: to distract the town and cause a no-lynch. Aquanim is scum. Lynch him D5. Nice OMGUS. You're going to have to do a lot better than that to lynch me. Seriously though, if you want to actually convince me rather than just make noise, you're going to have to start actually doing things. Pressure your reads, make cases, whatever. Saying "Oh, I'm looking for scum you just can't see it" isn't good enough. And claiming I want a no-lynch based on that case is bloody absurd. | ||
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On March 08 2013 06:40 TestSubject893 wrote: That case is bad and you know its bad. You've practically admitted that the case itself is irrelevant. Why post a useless case if not to distract us? I never said the case was bad, I said that the other points were not in as of themselves incriminating, merely indicative. I haven't seen a case yet today which doesn't have some points which aren't slam-dunks. The first point - that you've sat on your ass and done nothing of worth this game and tried to make yourself sound like you're not worth listening to - is sufficient to make the case. If that case makes anyone here reread your filter and make a decision for themselves it wasn't useless. Besides, I have a responsibility to make a case on my top scumread and right now you're it. You're trying to cast making a serious contribution to the thread as scummy? srs? | ||
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On March 08 2013 06:49 layabout wrote: aqua why aren't you posting about the lynch? test isn't getting lynched so drop it He keeps replying to me so I keep replying to him. You have a point though. Gut says jcarlsoniv is town. WoS case is insufficient and I'm leaning town on him anyway. Should probably reassess this again but he's not today's lynch. The fact that Vivax's kill went through the one night that there was no scum KP is... disturbing but I still think he's town for now. As you say TS wagon isn't going anywhere. Which leaves... ##Vote: Glurio I'm not going to lie, this is a case of "vote the best lynch on the table" rather than "vote my scumread", seeing as how I did the latter and noone was interested. | ||
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Your point? Surely he'd be more confident if this was a preplanned scum gambit? Also do you think this setup is balanced without any town KP? (I have no opinion on this question at present, I am genuinely interested in your opinion.) | ||
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On March 08 2013 07:10 WaveofShadow wrote: It's funny, I noticed that yesterday and forgot about it completely trudging through the cesspool that is Mocsta's filter. (Fat lot of good that did me) Not worth changing my vote, though it does seem as though Glurio is going down. Not worth changing your vote? We still don't have a majority yet. Unless you think a no-lynch is better than a Glurio lynch (hint: you don't) change your vote now. | ||
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On March 08 2013 07:12 JungleJorge wrote: My point is when people are faking stuff they slip and sound fake. That's how I catch most people as scum. And regarding town kp yes. Mafia KP is very low this game. Town had two protection roles, plus two info roles so far. If any kp would be present for town I would say it would probably be hatter. On March 08 2013 07:19 JungleJorge wrote: Also I'm sandroba. And I think vivax is scum. I don't have time to consider your case now, but I will re-examine Vivax overnight. | ||
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Doesn't look like there are any crazy voteswitch shenanigans. | ||
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On March 08 2013 08:56 glurio wrote: Don't worry its the same alignment. Let's get my lynched at page 200! Sure OK. One more post... | ||
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I'd encourage everyone to re-examine TestSubject with the following two questions in mind: 1) Is TestSubject looking for scum? 2) Has TestSubject done anything which is far more likely from town than scum? My answers to these questions were no and no. If you disagree I'd love to discuss it, but only with people who've actually put in the work and reread him recently. | ||
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One question: Night two, scum *withholds* KP to frame up me or whoever they thought you'd roleblock for the lack of KP, town vig Vivax shoots RO. Why is this implausible? | ||
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On March 08 2013 13:48 MilkSuckler wrote: (4) Where does this leave Aquanim? When Vivax flips red, I would consider insta-lynching Aquanim. With the context above, the RB (on Aqua vs JJ/Vivax) makes no sense; but Aqua continual urge to justify the RB makes me feel uneasy. If I was town, I would have no idea why I was RB'd.. and would leave it alone as it is all WIFOM.. Aqua instead continues to flesh this out (e.g. the post I am responding to). Layabout has been screaming non-stop for my lynch for the last two days based solely on that roleblock. It's also perhaps the biggest thing in this game that doesn't make a blind bit of sense and might solve the game. So no, I'm not "leaving it alone". | ||
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On March 09 2013 07:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Did JJ forget to send in his roleblock? What happened to that? Because if he jailed the person mafia hit that would actually explain everything. The thought's occured to me. A couple of times. | ||
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On March 09 2013 08:14 The Macho Man wrote: i can not wrap my head around a scum shooting his own teammate it just seems to stupid to be possible. I know, right... but can you think of a single other explanation for N2? | ||
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1) If the only explanation for the observed events was that Vivax was scum why would scum do it in the first place? Answer: Should have been obvious. If JJ had actually done a JK that would have explained the lack of scum KP, which perfectly explains why they didn't roleblock him (which has been mentioned before). Fortuitous in hindsight. I think this was mentioned by JJ but it took me a while to get it through my head. 2) Vivax claimed vigilante Night 1 and scum would have had to "use" their roleblock on him to explain his lack of KP. Answer: Implies a fair bit of planning in advance but I suppose I can see it. Roleblock night 1 is a bit of a crapshoot 3) I had a townread on Vivax independent of vigilante claim. Answer: I've been wrong before and will likely be wrong again. Which leaves the question of "would scum really shoot themselves with their own KP?". I have doubts but it's the kind of plan Vivax and Chezinu would come up with. ##Vote: Vivax | ||
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On March 09 2013 09:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote: So you aren't convinced by the case at all and are unsure about the night action so why would you vote for vivax? That wasn't what I said. I said that I did have doubts, and then gave my answers to all of them, for two purposes: 1) to make my thought process transparent which I think is a good policy 2) in case anyone else was stuck on the same points, my explanation might help them get past those points | ||
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On March 09 2013 09:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm not really sure what your thoughts are, it seems you don't have much of an opinion at all. Short version: I can't see any other explanation for night 2 besides Vivax being scum. So, I'm voting for him. | ||
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On March 09 2013 09:34 Vivax wrote: ... I'll just repeat my argument: Nothing stopped me from claiming being roleblocked all the time or shooting someone like hassy instead of a teammate. Scum knew I wasn't going to be RBd, so I don't know what happened to their shot, they might have framed me by withholding KP knowing I would shoot, which is now working just fine. ... The trouble is that scum must have thought JungleJorge would JK someone and so the lack of scum KP would be blamed on that. It would be impossible to know even after the JK'd player was flipped that scum KP hadn't been lost by a shot either on or from the JK target. So this plan from scum wouldn't actually accomplish anything. | ||
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Feeling a lot better about PR balance with Vivax scum after that claim. I wouldn't have though an additional JOAT would be required for balance personally, but I suppose it's possible (scum might need something we haven't seen yet as well, though). | ||
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On March 10 2013 10:02 iamperfection wrote: o shit my bad I lol'd. GG iamp. And vivax too, that vigilante play was pretty sweet. | ||
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I know nothing happened in the last cycle but that doesn't make it day now... | ||
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GLHF | ||
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Even more disappointed I couldn't push the TS lynch through. That's my responsibility in the end, I suppose, but I definitely felt nobody really read it (until maybe WoS just before his lynch). At least I was a NK for mafia and not just collateral damage to arsonist/hatter :/ Definitely sticking to minis for the future, this was not an enjoyable experience (too much thread and too many lurkers). | ||
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On March 13 2013 12:48 TestSubject893 wrote: I wouldn't blame yourself for not lynching me. The first several days I played exactly as I would as town and when I was attacking your case I was doing it sincerely. I really did think you didn't have enough to go on. For the record, when I wrote that case I was as convinced (if not more) that you were scum as I have ever been about anyone else in a game of mafia. You were just not assertive, at all. I appreciate you said something about finding scum by intensive conversation with people - as far as I could tell you weren't doing that either, you'd just done nothing for four days. Obviously your view and my view of your play differ rather a lot. Unfortunately the only real way I had to convince anyone was to say "go read his filter". And nobody could be bothered. | ||
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