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On February 26 2013 12:48 MilkSuckler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 12:42 randombum wrote:
The main idea behind my plan is that the mayor is doomed anyways, might as well use it to try to lynch mafia. Agreed. Until I see a better plan: I am going to vote for someone who is going to lynch my top scum read. My top scum read is still formulating: but I am going to look specifically at players that came in at the start, chipped in a little to blend and then fucked off without actually contributing a thought. Even if a mafia is present among the early contributors (its been like 20-30 pages in <4hrs) its going to be a crapshoot to identify scum out of that group (other than Prome and perhaps WoS who are under heat)
Who cares, just make a case if you're going to make a case. Why are you coming in here to announce that you're not confident? Do you want a way out if you can't contribute anything good? Do you have a scumread that I didn't come up with, or anything to contribute? I can't believe that you could write off 20-30 pages of discussion as a crapshoot. Day 1 is harder than Day 2 and it's expected that town will mislynch Day 1, we all know that. There's no sense in pointing it out as an excuse to not try.
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That's not the question you should be asking, the question you should be asking is what the intention of having a discussion over RNG anyway and how could it possibly be helpful to town?
On February 26 2013 14:10 MilkSuckler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 14:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 26 2013 12:48 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 26 2013 12:42 randombum wrote:
The main idea behind my plan is that the mayor is doomed anyways, might as well use it to try to lynch mafia. Agreed. Until I see a better plan: I am going to vote for someone who is going to lynch my top scum read. My top scum read is still formulating: but I am going to look specifically at players that came in at the start, chipped in a little to blend and then fucked off without actually contributing a thought. Even if a mafia is present among the early contributors (its been like 20-30 pages in <4hrs) its going to be a crapshoot to identify scum out of that group (other than Prome and perhaps WoS who are under heat) Who cares, just make a case if you're going to make a case. Why are you coming in here to announce that you're not confident? Do you want a way out if you can't contribute anything good? Do you have a scumread that I didn't come up with, or anything to contribute? I can't believe that you could write off 20-30 pages of discussion as a crapshoot. Day 1 is harder than Day 2 and it's expected that town will mislynch Day 1, we all know that. There's no sense in pointing it out as an excuse to not try. You are misinterpreting the post. I don't have a problem discussing this further with you: but your tone is over the top and comes across more as a drill sergeant spitting in my face. That aside, the post was more so highlighting I intended to vote a mayor who will lynch my top scum read as opposed to all this pardoner bullshit. The extra stuff was added there because I felt it was useful: not everyone has 10k posts under their name Dr.
Probably, sorry for being too aggressive but what is the point of making an announcement like that? It makes you sound unsure, Day 1 is difficult for everybody but letting that idea hang over your head is bad for town. The fact that Prom is not responding at all to any pressure on him is really troubling to me. The only reason I can think of is either supreme arrogance or mafia stalling/hoping that my case would blow over.
If you were town and a vet came out attacking you would you ignore it to instead talk about how grush57 is a townie because of an extremely specific meta read? How on earth is that helpful or more worth arguing over than your own innocence? Why no OMGUS?
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No one except for mafia can claim to know anyones alignment for certain. My main concern is electing a mayor who will lynch someone I think is scum and who is a present enough player that they will be fairly easy to read. I am less interested in going through a prospective mayors filter and determining his alignment than I am in pressuring him to lynch the person I most think is scum.
Only scum can vote for a mayor with full confidence that they are town. The mayor getting mafia isn't a major problem, they won't have bodyguards and are still liable to be acted on at night. The mayoral election being used to derail the Day 1 discussion into something other than who is scum and needs to die is a major problem because this trend will definitely continue. It's all that simple to me. To be honest, I've seen enough plans go bad that I almost tune out the instant I realize that somebody is trying to implement something, especially on Day 1.
The optimal play is whatever ends up with a scum being lynched at the end of the day. There is nothing that can possibly be more optimal than that unless it means even more scum die. I would rather have a scum mayor who gave into pressure and bussed a teammate (knowing he will likely slip up and get pressured later) than a town mayor who lynches some random lurker or an RNG or something dumb like that. To be honest, I don't care about a damn thing other than the result of the lynch. Everything else is noise.
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Notice the connection between Prom's fixation on confirmed townies and the fact that mafia know for certain who the town are (assuming no third party shenanigans, theorizing about third party is really a waste of time until later when it matters for LYLO) btw
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On February 26 2013 14:40 randombum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 13:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 26 2013 13:19 randombum wrote:On February 26 2013 12:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 26 2013 12:35 randombum wrote:On February 26 2013 12:30 The Macho Man wrote:On February 26 2013 12:29 randombum wrote:
Well obviously lynching scum is good. But the idea is we can use it to gain a lot of information that simply elected a town mayor who is likely to die does not. why are we trying to get information instead of lynching scum? Why are you treating gathering information and lynching scum as mutually exclusive. This plan involves lynching the scum target and putting another in the spotlight. I could get it if you said something like "this plan would never work because...." or something like that, but to simply dismiss it because gathering information is bad? no one cares about or likes your plan so tell us who we should lynch or who you think the mayor should be. if you want to have a scum mayor, that's essentially the same question right? Honestly, I'm not good enough to figure out mafia day one based purely off what people have posted. That's partly why I find a plan which is designed get as much information as possible so appealing. Electing someone mayor that you think is scum doesn't give you any information. Making that decision depends on the fact that you can figure out mafia on day one since you would need to do that anyway to elect a scum mayor. You're not making sense to me. Are you purposely trying to mis-interpret me? How does somebody being mayor and how he plays not give you information? Electing someone mayor puts them in the spot light and puts a ton of pressure on them. You admitted this yourself when you said you didn't want to be mayor. What they do with this allows town to understand them better. If I was for sure he was scum I wouldn't make him mayor I would lynch him.
Why not just put a ton of pressure on someone because you think they're scum anyway? I don't understand why they have to be mayor or what conditions you would find acceptable. So are you going to vote for your top scumread to be mayor as a form of pressure? Why not just call them out in the thread and try to convince people to lynch him?
You can't know whether the person is scum or not and they're going to be pressured as mayor either way so.... I just don't get it. Enlighten me because you've done a poor job of explaining your plan or whatever it is you have. My question is why you think this is somehow more helpful than just old fashioned scumhunting. So far it seems like this is just your way of being able to get away with not actually accusing anybody because you're afraid to.
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Everyone needs to stop discussing randombum's idea because it's going in circles. It's a WIFOM argument, the town mayor is screwed just as bad as the scum mayor without bodyguards, so the only thing that matters in the end is the lynch and ensuring that the town doesn't place some kind of implicit trust in the mayor in the days to come.
Talking more about Prom is not helpful until he's ready to respond, I demand that he respond to my case in full and explain his reasoning adequately. It's worth noting that Vivax has 2 full pages in his filter with zero content.
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The only thing that makes me doubt Prom might be scum is the fact that his whole play is too stupid to really be part of a good mafia plan, but that kind of thinking is unhelpful. If he flips as a bad townie, fine, I'm looking at all the fools who came in here like he was already flipped red after I actually got the bandwagon going.
For instance - either way Prom flips but especially green I'd find Glurio to be highly suspect http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399294&user=68375 - he contributed nothing then spends his whole filter basically parroting my case and pushing the Prom bandwagon, not necessarily terrible, it only seems suspicious because he hadn't contributed anything before this. I have no problem with townies pushing my bandwagon - that's the whole point of making a case. Is there a reason you were absent until now Glurio?
The fact that Prom isn't aggressively defending himself and seems to have basically given up makes me doubtful though.
I think ObviousOne (for reasons already mentioned, read posts by Aquanim and the Milkman, I can go more in depth) is likely mafia. I also think vigilantes/detectives ought to look closely through the filter of WaveofShadow and jcarlsoniv with a copy of Ver's Town Guide in the next tab and see what you feel like doing tonight.
Vivax is an immediate lynch if Promethelax flips red. Do not allow anyone to derail this. His huge post of reads and little categorizations is the worst post I've seen in this game so far. Not necessarily in pure scumminess, but just in how little substance it has. How unhelpful. I don't care who is "the serious one" or "the jokey one", what the fuck does that have to do with finding scum?
My point is - WHY SHOULD ANYONE CARE ABOUT AN UNDEVELOPED READ? - If you're going to spend the game throwing FoS's around and little reads
"Oh, I'm leaning scum on DrH, his posting is really aggressive...."
"Oh, I think DrH is really towny he's made a lot of sense to me"
^ if that's the best you can do, don't bother. That won't convince anyone.
In retrospect I'm not really able to get proper reads out for the early behaviour since it seems that scummy people seem to be scattered across the categories, but I thought I'd make an on-the-go-attempt to use that type of analysis. Oh, good thing I read that huge ass post only to learn you have no fucking opinion. If I can come up with strong reads looking through peoples filters, why can't you put in that work? Oh, you're not looking for scum, you're looking to see who the "serious" and "jokey" players are. What a huge credit to town.
I submit that Vivax should be nightkilled. If he's scum, great. If he's town that's a few more long posts that I no longer have to waste my time reading. If Prom flips red, he's done.
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On February 27 2013 02:05 Vivax wrote:
I think the points I mentioned for Prom being scum are more reliable than the ones you use, subjectively.
"I have knowledge that Prom is scum therefore I can make a better argument, since he's my teammate and all"
?
On February 27 2013 00:27 Vivax wrote:
I am null on Prom given how he's been handling his reads of me.
"But Prom is my teammate, we should all really lack confidence about this lynch!"
How about we lynch the guy that attacked me that one time. I know it was a totally insignificant part of the thread but it matters to me. Everyone pay attention to how great my post was earlier? Did you read it????? Did you read it? I'm town!"
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On February 27 2013 02:22 glurio wrote:
Game started at 1 am my time, had to work this morning and it took me nearly 3 hours to read all those pages, that's why it took so long to contribute.
I'd like to hear your thoughts about something other than Prom right now. Do you have a gut scumread that no one has discussed yet?
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On February 27 2013 02:45 Vivax wrote:
I'll fuck off anyway, I'm sure your vet circle will solve this game all by itself.
Don't even know why I'm still posting, everything gets ignored when it's not to call me scum.
There you go, martyr yourself and get angry as soon as anyone disagrees with you. You want to say I'm not scumhunting? I've nailed scumteams in my sleep, honey.
After reading post after post of weak accusations, questions that lead to no pressure and some sort of weird confidence that seems to be centered around your awesome post that I just ripped apart, I'm still looking for the pro-town attitude and I can't find it. After wading through a mire of fluff and inconsequential half-confident reads I found that you seem to think JJ is scum. Curious that your enormous post seems to be more concerned with providing a lot of null/town reads on other players, derailing the bandwagon and NOT with putting any pressure on JJ. If you're town and JJ is indeed your scumread, your mission is to ensure he is lynched today. But instead your mission seems to be to get really butthurt that I called you out on a bad post and try to make sure everyone second guesses themselves about Prom. Explain to me why that isn't scummy. You want to tell me that you're not scummy and just really bad instead? Okay, now don't expect anyone to listen to you for the rest of the game if you're giving up on yourself that quickly. Any vet circle that exists is your mind is a figment of your imagination.
Wanna talk about scumhunting still? Go through my filter and tell me I've done anything but put the heat on Prom, demanding he respond, pressuring other people to vote with me. All the time I haven't spent trying to lynch scum has been trying to cut the bullshit out of the town discussion and you're next on the list. You seem to be pretty good at ignoring scumhunting to try to make yourself look good, so try it now and convince me you're town.
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On February 27 2013 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
Where the fuck is OO anyway?
It's like he's content to be second best read for everyone. That's a place where scum feel safe...snuggly.
Vivax is looking a little better since coming back into the thread (in that he's actually contributing meaningfully rather than trolling and fucking off). I don't like him defending Prom though. But I do like that he's analyzing stuff.
My platform has changed. I am no longer willing to lynch into Vivax and would instead replace him with ObviousOne. So a vote for VE is a vote to lynch into Promethelax or ObviousOne - whichever one is scummiest to me at lynch time.
Right now that's Promethelax, but ObviousOne is gaining on him fast the longer he's absent. I happen to have first-hand knowledge of his thought-process with little information (i.e. if he were town) and he's not showing that to me here. He's showing me something I haven't seen before...lurky, no opinions when he is here, short posts explaining nothing, sarcastic in the face of suspicion rather than concern. I think he scum dude.
Are you kidding? Vivax has contributed absolutely nothing. Did you just see the big post and assume it was helpful because it was long?
I know you also like this bad playstyle of posting a bunch of half-reads and never getting anything out of it, but it's really not helpful and you shouldn't encourage it.
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Because VE is wrong. Explain the point of your work, attack my ideas and not me and I'll listen to you.
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Because there was no useful information in that post. Categorizing the attitudes and humor of 6 different players is not helpful. Listing town and null reads is not helpful. The only potentially useful thing in there was the beginnings of a case on JJ which you didn't flesh out or follow up on so I can assume you're not really very concerned about that.
You called me anti-town. Do you think I'm scum then? If you think JJ is scum, why aren't you trying to convince anyone to lynch him? One paragraph buried in a post of fluff does not suffice as a case.
Let's not forget after I made my case on Prom, no one was pressuring him and VE was arguing in circles with randombum. Hard for me to get information out of someone who won't respond but the fact that he just martyred himself and didn't bother defending the accusations is evidence enough for me.
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Oh, bad memory. You're right, you weren't even involved. I wanted to get him out of the way as quickly as possible.
So I admit to that. Thank god Marvellosity and Mattchew aren't in this game or I'd be trying to lynch Mattchew for what Marvel said and vice-versa.
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On February 27 2013 03:28 Vivax wrote:
My case on JJ doesn't have a followup cause it isn't actually on JungleJorge, it was supposed to be on MachoMan, of which I found the response to my post to be quite townie. I put the wrong name in there (happens too often lately).
There are people who didn't even post since the game started, the reason you're not calling them scum based on general contributions is cause you are biased towards only paying attention to the things in front of you.
If you don't bother looking at every player's contribution, then don't bother saying I didn't contribute much, cause I did. Maybe start looking for scum at the playerlist and not just on the last page of the thread.
I don't think you're scum, but you don't need to be to play anti-town. I suggest to look for scum among the less active players. Get them to post at least. I'd especially like JJ to give more than just a defence of Prom since he seems to have actually read the thread, thing we can't be sure of regarding hassy and jcarlson.
jcarlsoniv is leaning scum for me but there's so little substance there that it's not worth pursuing right now. Lurkers will lurk, I've always felt they should be dealt with last. It's good that some people will pressure them to post, but I leave that up to others and I concern myself with analyzing and pressuring people who are posting.
I have looked for scum in the playerlist. For your information I've read 11 filters and I'm working on my reads and cases in an office document, I'm not putting them out there until I'm ready to go in for the kill. I'll pressure, sure, but that's a more in the moment type of thing for me. Always has been.
You can read through the playerlist, find a lot of inconclusive/town reads and that's fine. There is no reason to post them in the thread. The important part of your post was the accusation and pressure on machoman and it just kinda got lost in all the other information which was unimportant. Town does not need to know everything you are thinking at all times.
So if you no longer think MM is scum, are you telling me you have absolutely no read at this point? How can you criticize me for not putting in effort to find scum when you have no read?
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On February 27 2013 03:31 VisceraEyes wrote:
Generally people mix up my icon with like Bugs Kita MZ, so I get what your'e saying.
Who's actions were you attributing to me? I'd look but I'm lazy and watching a show right now.
A mix of macho man and probably everyone else talking about randombum. I think I'm naturally inclined to be really aggressive toward you so I apologize now for any future false accusations
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and if you're mostly concerned about lurkers, i've yet to see any effort from you to force them to post. I just really don't get what you're going for, there appears to be no substance yet you're sure that you're being very very useful right now but at the same time discrediting yourself by saying you can't read anyone and that you're a newbie? That's exactly the way I expect scum to post. Don't get mad about it, try to understand what I'm asking of you and if you're town we should be able to see eye to eye in the end. I'm not trying to swing the bandwagon right now so relax.
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On February 27 2013 03:36 layabout wrote:
I don't get why vivax made a big analysis post and then ended it with "i guess my analysis didn't really work". It served no purpose other than to demonstrate that he is putting in effort. If he had wanted to share his reads why not simply do so?
Don't you see? all information is good information?
I think layabout is a null read. There, I've done my part. Put in the work and contributed. I think we should all analyse the people who haven't posted in this game yet.
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On February 27 2013 03:46 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 03:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Oh, bad memory. You're right, you weren't even involved. I wanted to get him out of the way as quickly as possible.
So I admit to that. Thank god Marvellosity and Mattchew aren't in this game or I'd be trying to lynch Mattchew for what Marvel said and vice-versa. how do you know Matt isn't in the game?
huh? im saying i get people confused with eachother in my head and make mistakes because of it. their names both start with Ms and I often think they are the same person when I start getting reckless
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notice also the majority of viv's info dump is about null reads and town reads, very often mafia hide in the comfort of their information and although it is information it isn't really useful since the only possible useful thing that could happen is a scum being killed
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EPT
