This Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia - Page 97

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 03 2013 20:32 GMT

#1921

On March 04 2013 05:27 yamato77 wrote:
You forgot to mention the part where you first defended Deino n0.

WHAT NOW BITCH

Yes because things in the early hours of Day 0 are totally alignment indicative.

And once again, I was very clear about my desire to see Dieno in a duel on Day 1.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 03 2013 20:36 GMT

#1922

Oh lol wait the above is wrong. I did want to see Zapa/Snarfs duel on Day 1:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360&currentpage=29#564

I need to wake up before I post. Brb.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 03 2013 20:38 GMT

#1923

Fuckin... THRAWN/Snarfs.

Can't even read my own filter.

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 03 2013 20:43 GMT

#1924

On March 04 2013 05:21 Hapahauli wrote:
And I think it's really clear from Yamato's "duel" antics here that he's simply not interested in finding out my alignment.

He called me scum over 48 hours ago, promising all the way to provide a case against me. Since then, he's never given me an opportunity to explain myself, never asked me a single question, and has never attempted to interact with me.

Then last night, he plops a case down at 5am and pulls the Duel trigger.

That's not a town thought process, much less a town-Yamato thought process.

As you recommended, I have read over British Empire... and I don't see the same aggressive Yamato as I see here. Yamato seems far more involved here.

I also still don't see a reason for him to duel you if he's scum, let alone get all triggerhappy about it.

Can someone give me a scum explanation for this?

@yamato: everything you say about me now is fine, but I haven't altered my playstyle. Yet one day ago you were so convinced I was scum you were threatening to duel me at dawn. What in the last day changed your mind?

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 03 2013 20:44 GMT

#1925

EBWOP: clarification, day = game day, not realtime day.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 03 2013 20:46 GMT

#1926

On March 04 2013 05:43 Acrofales wrote:

Show nested quote +

The first few pages of that game were his first scum-game. Then he started getting SUPER aggressive when he got comfortable. Started about Page 3-4 of his filter (when he starts going after Mr.Cheesecake and calling everyone else stupid).

yamato77

11589 Posts

March 03 2013 20:46 GMT

#1927

Nothing you've done since then particularly indicates to me that you're mafia. Everything since then is rather townish.

yamato77

11589 Posts

March 03 2013 20:48 GMT

#1928

Was @ Acro

Also, your read on Deino was right and mine wrong, so there's that, too.

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 03 2013 20:50 GMT

#1929

For the Hapa=scum guys: Hapa took point on defending Dieno's opening post. I don't see a scum hard defending his scumbuddy's scummy opening post. I thought I might have said I didn't find it incriminating, but Hapa said that first. He was sticking his neck out and I really can't imagine a scum trying to defend his buddy based on that post. Especially not one as experienced as Hapa.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 03 2013 20:53 GMT

#1930

On March 04 2013 05:48 yamato77 wrote:
Was @ Acro

Also, your read on Deino was right and mine wrong, so there's that, too.

I'm pretty sure Acro defending Dieno early on.

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 03 2013 20:56 GMT

#1931

On March 04 2013 05:53 Hapahauli wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm pretty sure Acro defending Dieno early on.

He's talking about my read when he was making his giant case on me.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 03 2013 21:04 GMT

#1932

On March 04 2013 05:56 Acrofales wrote:

Show nested quote +

He's talking about my read when he was making his giant case on me.

Yeah, but even if so, where was Yamato's read on Dieno "wrong?" This quote comes to mind:

On March 01 2013 01:41 yamato77 wrote:
Dieno might well be mafia, too, but I want Acro dead first.

I don't see where he calls Dieno town or even townie.

The closest thing I found was this:

If you think Dieno is mafia, I want more detailed analysis from you on the subject. I played a part in lynching him in Parallel when he was fairly useless as town, and barely scumhunted at all. I see very little difference between his play that game and this game.

And that's not even a stance, given that he turns around 30 minutes later and starts leaning scum on Dieno:

On March 01 2013 05:26 yamato77 wrote:
Hm.

You may be right on Dieno

I reread his igrok filter from Parallel, and it seems he is far from useless there.

We shall see.

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 03 2013 21:45 GMT

#1933

Hrmm ok. I agree that he does get pretty obnoxiously aggressive in British Empire. However, he also gets a giant tunnel on. He never doubts his reads. He never recants a scumread and doesn't seem to reconsider anything.

I don't really see the two games as following a similar track. But it was his very first scumgame, so it's not much of an argument against him being scum either.

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 03 2013 23:31 GMT

#1934

I decided that I cannot make much sense of Yamato scum. His D1 play is just too aggressive. He pushes the whole macho-man idea aggressively, gets in a stupid shouting match with Cora and does lots of other insane stuff. He is way too aggressive at me too, but doesn't get stuck in a tunnel like in BEM and is willing to back down off his reads.

Now onto Hapa. This is going to be a very weird case, because I have basically decided to sheep players who have far more experience playing with Hapa than I do:

Here are Marv's D1 reads of Hapa and Yamato:
Hapahauli - he's just done nothing to make me think he's town, and Hapa is very capable of coming across town. Like iamp mentions, defends himself too much instead of doing proactive things. *could* just be a bad start.
yamato - aggression, thread presence, decent reads, etc

Iamp has been pretty damned spot on with his reads this game too (got both Keir and Dieno right pretty early on). He also had Hapa as scum (and has a lot of games with Hapa) and Yamato as town.

Why kill Iamp over Adam? Because he was one of the few people actively pushing a Hapa lynch.

I believe it's possible scum Hapa has been playing the long game. He identified early that Dieno was playing terribly and got on the bus. He then identified early that he wouldn't be able to save Keirathi with Keirathi's commitment and playing level, when Adam dueled him.

Btw, a scum Hapa would've been far easier to identify if we had lynched Zapa first. If you simply assume Zapa is scum, then Hapa's association gets pretty dodgy. He has a strong town read, but when the thread starts seeing him as scum, he kinda goes quiet on Zapa. On the flipside, Zapa is about as non-committal as you can get when discussing Hapa. I don't want to use this too much, but a Zapa/Hapa scumteam makes quite a bit of sense.

In order to see either Hapa or Yamato as scum, we need to just assume they were fully willing to bus. Yamato came out pretty strong against Keir. Then D2 realized that Dieno would have to die. Hapa came out pretty strong against Dieno and realized in the duel that Keir would have to die. I give equal townie points to both.

So lets put the bus argument to rest. That leaves everything else in their play, and Yamato has just been more proactive and helpful than Hapa.

+ Show Spoiler [point-by-point] +

Points in favour of town Hapa:

Hard defense of Dieno's post. Seems risky for a scum Hapa.
Bussing his scumbuddies.
Reads and observations seem to agree with mine.

Points in favour of scum Hapa:

Not pushing his reads and not the commitment level of his townie self.
180 flip on Iamp could be an excuse to get out of a tunnel.
Iamp and Marv know him. Marv had him as "not playing like he does as town" and Iamp had him as his top scumread.

Points in favour of town Yamato:

Aggressive, but not tunneling. Not being an asshole.
Bussed Keirathi early.
Reconsidering his reads and continuing to analyze as the game goes on.
Goes out of his way to duel his scumread.

Points in favour of scum Yamato:

180º flip on Keirathi (although he eventually regained his senses)
Unenthusiastic about Dieno in a duel

So... I actually come down on Hapa being scummier than Yamato and will put my vote there.

##vote Hapahauli

Corazon

United States3230 Posts

March 04 2013 00:00 GMT

#1935

Well Yamato's well-reasoned defense and Acro's post have convinced me that I still need time to think about this decision:

##unvote

I'd like to point out that Hapa's two biggest arguments were with confirmed VT's (Iamp and Thrawn). He attacked them, and then randomly decided to back off of them for really silly reasons (iamp for no reason at all and Thrawn for one action he did during D1).

Part of me wants to think that Iamp, Marv and Thrawn were right. The other part wants time to think about it. Perhaps after Spanish homework...

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 04 2013 00:18 GMT

#1936

Bleh, I see nothing in either Dieno or Keir's filter that gives me any indication one way or another.

Dieno is very wishy washy on Yamato and answers Hapa's questions, but never gives a read.
Keir avoids talking about either Hapa or Yamato directly.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 04 2013 00:46 GMT

#1937

While I don't mind more discussion going on, that post is complete nonsense Acro.

Yamato is an aggressive, spazzy personality regardless of alignment. You seem to think that him backing down from reads is indicative of him being town, but I haven't seen anything from those actions that shows off a town mentality. Off the top of my head, these are some of his tunnels this game:

1) Wants Kei dead. Then when Adam duels Kei, completely forgets about Kei to tunnel Adam. Only drops his tunnel on Adam when it's very clear that Kei was going to get lynched.

2) Wants you (Acro) dueled on Day 2. Completely batshit convinced that you're scum. Softpushes Dieno repeatedly:

On March 01 2013 01:41 yamato77 wrote:
Dieno might well be mafia, too, but I want Acro dead first.

Somewhat sticks up for Dieno once:

...Then "derp whoops now that I read his filter in Parallel again, it's not what I think it was!"

On March 01 2013 05:26 yamato77 wrote:
Hm.

You may be right on Dieno

I reread his igrok filter from Parallel, and it seems he is far from useless there.

We shall see.

3) Wants me (Hapa) dead. Starts off on it 48 hours ago, and never comes up with a case or gives me an opportunity to respond to whatever his suspicions were. Then accuses the town of being "lazy" as one of the stated motivations for his duel. There is a contradiction here, do you see it?

It is also possible that I'm a pink unicorn with butterfly wings.

Just because something is "possible" doesn't mean that you should dismiss the entire argument that my actions make no sense from a scum perspective. How likely is it that I did what I did as scum?

yamato77

11589 Posts

March 04 2013 01:12 GMT

#1938

I've been on you all game, dude.

Stop playing around like I just made this up out of thin air.

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

March 04 2013 01:17 GMT

#1939

On March 04 2013 10:12 yamato77 wrote:
I've been on you all game, dude.

Stop playing around like I just made this up out of thin air.

O really?

You backed off your initial suspicions early in the game when popular opinion wasn't with you. Then you came up with a random "Hapa is scum" comment 48 hours ago. You plopped down your case at 5 am in the morning, never gave anyone time to address the case, and here we are.

Acrofales

Spain18317 Posts

March 04 2013 01:23 GMT

#1940

You say Yamato is spazzy as either alignment, but insofar as I can see he has played a grand total of 1 game where he was scum (according to the DB and my recent memory). In that game, I would not call him spazzy. I would call him abrasive and aggressive (once he got going after a rather dodgy D1). He never backs down from any of his scum reads. This is what he said in his postgame:

On January 12 2013 04:17 yamato77 wrote:
If I had been there during Dandel's lynch I might have defended him just to increase Zentor's paranoia about the both of us.

Hapa I'm sorry I did what I did this game. I have great respect for you as a player but I had to be so stupid you would never believe I was scum. It almost worked.

I don't see Yamato being particularly stupid this game. He isn't getting stuck in tunnels on obvious townies and yelling at everybody else that they're stupid. His case on me, while wrong, pointed out a number of flaws in my play, which I am not very happy with.

The meta just doesn't hold up.

As for you being town? Maybe. I could be wrong. But given a choice between the two of you, I'll bet on you being scum and not Yamato.

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