Dessert Mini Mafia - Page 16

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 00:43 GMT

#2201

I attacked xatalos d1 and I was shut down completely. I assumed I was wrong because everyone disagreed with me.

I put weight on the roleblocks because I had already assumed that I was wrong. It was a coinflip on the RBs because on the night scum shot thrawn they could not have known there were no other blues.

wp jay and xata. I am actually serious about the break, I'm probably gonna focus on school and maybe check the forum now and again, smurf or hydra or whatever but I've lost my interest in the game when we have so many townies who play like this.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 00:49 GMT

#2203

also in jay's position, any townie can come in and say "hey, my internet is gone, my dog died, my parents need me to do shit, I lost my job" whatever and we have to basically assume they're telling the truth.

At the current level of play on the forum you can't policy lynch someone for being useless because you'll lose the game with straight mislynches.

Apart from being mason what did Zentor do? Ruuch was a completely new player, if we had policy lynched him for doing exactly what scum do, we would've lost a townie. Hopeless only played the game when he was under heavy attack, otherwise he was a lazy bastard the rest of the time. Prom was unfortunately afk right when the wagon swapped on him; not his fault, but one of the best townies in the game gets mislynched d1 because people can't think for themselves.

Look at this votecount:

Xatalos (1): jaybrundage
Promethelax (7): slOosh, thrawn2112, grush57, MrZentor, Xatalos, Ruuch, Supersoft
Lazermonkey (1): Promethelax
Ruuch (4): Lazermonkey, wherebugsgo, Hapahauli, Hopeless1der

You have ONE person from the scumteam who voted Prom, and an SK.

Come on, really?! I didn't defend Prom on the basis that I didn't want to defend people who were capable of defending themselves. Yet, Prom got mislynched on the basis of some of the shittiest reasoning I've seen. It's been happening time and again in these minis.

I wonder how the game would have been different if we left slOosh alive and if he had gotten shots off, but w/e. It doesn't matter, nothing more to say than town never actually played the game apart from a few players.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 00:51 GMT

#2207

On January 27 2013 09:50 Xatalos wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's sad but yeah, it really makes it harder for town :/ I'll have to improve my towngame considerably now too, since nobody suspected me here in the end and I'm going to be under a lot of scrutiny in the future. I don't know what I'm going to do as scum though, haha... Insta-death? :D

your characterization of kush's play as troll really almost made me vote you, but I knew no one was going to vote you with me.

There was no chance in hell you were ever getting lynched after the double RB and everyone calling you town d1. There was just really no way.

In fact, I find it more likely that I would have died if I attacked you.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 00:58 GMT

#2211

On January 27 2013 09:54 Promethelax wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah they did.

Bugs: I know I said this in pm land but you saying that I M a good player means a lot to me and as unhappy as this game made me in a lot of ways you and super both made my day by calling my play good. Getting that recognition from good players means a lot to me. Thanks.

I'd much rather have 20 of you than 1 of grush on my team

I don't think I would have lynched him given that I kept having to remind myself of his meta, but I was just so frazzled and confused at how I could have been wrong about Xata, how both jay and lazer could have done nothing, that I "knew" two of jay + lazer + grush had to be scum.

I don't understand what you're supposed to do as a player when no one has confidence in you that you are right, so when you are right, you don't have confidence in yourself that you are right. Do you just say fuck you all, I'm right and then destroy the town until they agree with you?

It's like pulling teeth, even in BC's game I had correct early reads but 10 or 15 townies pulling me away from them.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 01:13 GMT

#2220

I usually get pretty ragey when I see people sign up for games and do nothing time and again.

Sure, I'd love to go into a game and just wreck it but you can't exactly do that when 80% of the town faction basically just does nothing the entire game.

Imagine Zentor wasn't a mason, or iamp hadn't replaced in, or whatever. Would we have had a town modkill? Would we have lynched Zentor?

Imagine scum and SK shot two different targets n1, let's say myself and super. We had no medic protection, so that would have been two correct shots. Would we even have lynched the SK d2?

The game was winnable despite the fact that I would place 7-8/13 of the players in the game strongly in the antitown column, even though only 4/13 were actually part of an antitown faction. Imagine if those players pulled their own weight.

If you're going to sit around in a game and do nothing at all then of course your votes are going to be worthless. Lurkers are lynched on policy so that when someone rolls scum they can't do what jay did.

Jay played very well to his strengths to be able to get away with what he got away with, but if town was proactive that would never in a million years happen. Jay would have been lynched in a heartbeat.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 02:49 GMT

#2236

well there were a few things.

one, your vote didn't ever move. If you had doubts like I thought you did, I expected your vote to move. That was relatively minor but it had been nagging at me and I never actually expressed that because I had assumed you were town the entire time. Bad assumption to make on my part.

second, the argument for kush being town made no sense in the context of any of the three games, and the fact that you kept telling me to read the game despite the fact that you had no actual evidence to support your meta argument suggested to me you either had confirmation bias or you were bullshitting me. Either some sort of trap (to see whether I was scum) or that you were scum.

When I asked you for the explanation and you never gave one, I became more suspicious. When you finally gave those 4 posts and still called kush trollish in this game, I knew there was something wrong. There was no reason to believe kush was trollish this game, and the two posts you cited in support of calling him trollish weren't indicative of anything at all.

Truly though, even though I rationalized my read on you with the RBs that was more me trying to come up with some reason as to why I would be wrong about you. I never actually thought you were town from your posts, I only thought you were town because everyone else said so and because there had to be a reason they thought so. I simply assumed it after the n2 roleblock where I thought that scum might not risk it knowing there are more blues.

Having seen Hapa claim the RB I should have been more suspicious. I was at some point questioning that but again I didn't think you would waste your RB the entire game (unless you didn't have one and were faking it)

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 02:56 GMT

#2238

I don't hate you, just don't sign up for games when you don't have the time to play.

Sign up when you can read the thread, make quality posts, and make the game enjoyable. Forcing your fellow townies to pull your dead weight for you is quite disrespectful to them, IMO.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 03:02 GMT

#2242

On January 27 2013 11:57 Dandel Ion wrote:
btw, I lol'd IRL when Xata tried to justify his meta read with kush's witchcraft filter, but quoted posts that were not from witchcraft, but from the chinese grammar micro mafia.

And nobody checked.

I didn't check cause I straight up disagreed lol

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 04:34 GMT

#2253

On January 27 2013 12:07 Xatalos wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hmm. Could you explain the first part? Wasn't it logical to keep my vote on grush as he was my "strongest scumread"? Wouldn't it have been instead scummy to move my vote to a lesser scumread like Lazer or Jay?

It was mostly a feel thing... Granted, I knew his alignment which made me look more convinced than I really should have shown, but it's true that Kush was more diplomatic there (especially in the beginning) and not diplomatic at all in this game (even though he only played in the beginning). I just thought I'd go with that feeling and try to make myself more townie by showing that I "cared" about the lynch. I obviously took it too far, but I think it was better than to sheep.

by itself it didn't mean much but as a townie in this type of situation I would expect doubt more than assuredness.

grush exemplified that, and I could actually understand that if he were town why he would be saying the things he would be saying. So, even though I was really frustrated at what he had done all game and why basically most players in his situation would have to be lynched for what he did, his play made sense from a town perspective.

From a logical perspective (since you asked about what it would have been logical to do) I think it varies slightly from player to player depending on their own biases toward the game and whatnot, but from my own experience, your job as town is to try and make sense of things. There were very many reasons to be confused in this situation and I wasn't convinced you were actually questioning the same things I was. I couldn't pin that on you simply not understanding the situation as town or whether you were scum at first, but as time went on closer to deadline I was becoming more and more suspicious.

Partly the reason I just flat out afked an hour before deadline was because I was mad, but also because I knew that if you were scum there was absolutely nothing I could do. There were strong signs you were and I just didn't have the drive, I was mentally exhausted at that point. I was simply broken, I couldn't bring myself to think logically and I needed to stop myself from raging so hard I'd do something much stupider than I had already. I was mostly mad at myself for not trusting my earlier reads, what jay was saying didn't really have that much of an impact (though that was a pretty neat strategy ^^)

I'll have to work on that in the future; I've been working on it for several months now and sometimes I can stay calm and sometimes I just can't. I'm not really sure what triggers it, tbh.

As for the meta stuff, here's what I'll say about it, with a short prelude and some other explanation, if anyone really cares, you can read it, if not, don't.

I'm going to say this now since I don't plan on doing this in the future and so I don't think this will affect my games. Ever since Space Station Mafia (if anyone here remembers that) in April I've been requesting town. I actually requested town a couple times before that too but not as regularly as I have been since. So for the last ~9 months I've been rolling town partly because of luck (some hosts have denied my requests) and mostly because I've been requesting it. I wanted to get better at scumhunting, and I think I am better at using meta now than I was before. I think it's a crucial tool and I am very very confident that players like Foolishness, sandro, Radfield, syllo, etc. would agree with me that correct use of meta often helps you catch mafia and separate townies from mafia much more quickly than otherwise.

I had a short conversation with GMarshal once during one of my earliest games, maybe my third or fourth here on the forum, something like a year and a half or more ago. I asked him why he was smurfing, as I had seen him smurf in several games at the time, and IIRC he asked me if I could guess. I said well, if you're smurfing then no one really knows who you are and they can't use past games to determine your alignment. He said exactly, meta matters. We had some sort of conversation about how meta is used or misused and whatnot (I don't really remember the details) but that phrase stuck with me ever since; meta matters.

Well, with kush here I think our conversation about his meta exemplified that you, for whatever reason, did not understand why the situation did not make kush (and by extension Lazer) town or scum based on meta alone. I ignored meta with regards to kush (I could have used it more specifically with Lazer but I wasn't feeling comfortable with his meta tbh) because I did not feel like the context of this game allowed for an adequate comparison between this game and Witchcraft. It didn't even provide an adequate comparison between this game and the newbie game, though it was a slightly better comparison. It was still bad, but I thought it might make kush slightly more likely to be scum.

My read on kush/Lazer wasn't based on meta though, and that's the problem. When you tried arguing that kush was trolling in this game and he wasn't in Witchcraft I sought your interpretation based on specifics, because simply making an assertion doesn't mean you've properly read into someone's past game history. When I didn't receive specifics I became suspicious. Either you were blinded, or you were scum. I became very suspicious when I saw you grasp at straws with those 4 posts you quoted, because I felt any reasonable townie would not characterized the two posts you quoted as trollish.

I have tried "metaing" people as scum and it can work pretty effectively, though in this case you didn't really have any consequence to the flip because there wouldn't be one. If you want an example, I believe in Mini X I might have metaed a couple people, where I was scum. I think I did in Couple's Therapy as well (against chaoser). Obviously these are fake and you can find holes in them but if you're looking for a convincing way to "look town" I think you can find those types of plays in the scum games of players like BC and Ace.

wherebugsgo

Japan10647 Posts

January 27 2013 05:46 GMT

#2256

On January 27 2013 14:08 jaybrundage wrote:
@WBG I would like your opinion on my play as well as anyone else that would care to comment. Imma start checking out the obs QT I feel like i couldnt accurately convey how i wanted to play with my limited once a day at mcdonalds internet.

Also WBG also while it was fun to insult you and such. I didn't mean anything by it. I could see you off your game and i saw the opportunity to get you ~~mad~~ madder. Thx for mentioning it :D

@Keirathi I think this one was much better. Usually i just end up getting mislynched lol.

I think your play was good but it will only work once I think lol :p

I have no problem with what strategy you used, I think it's legitimate and it doesn't break any rules, so it's all good. Whatever happens in-game stays in-game, IMO.