Dessert Mini Mafia - Page 12

Xatalos

Finland9675 Posts

January 27 2013 03:07 GMT

#2249

On January 27 2013 11:49 wherebugsgo wrote:
well there were a few things.

one, your vote didn't ever move. If you had doubts like I thought you did, I expected your vote to move. That was relatively minor but it had been nagging at me and I never actually expressed that because I had assumed you were town the entire time. Bad assumption to make on my part.

second, the argument for kush being town made no sense in the context of any of the three games, and the fact that you kept telling me to read the game despite the fact that you had no actual evidence to support your meta argument suggested to me you either had confirmation bias or you were bullshitting me. Either some sort of trap (to see whether I was scum) or that you were scum.

When I asked you for the explanation and you never gave one, I became more suspicious. When you finally gave those 4 posts and still called kush trollish in this game, I knew there was something wrong. There was no reason to believe kush was trollish this game, and the two posts you cited in support of calling him trollish weren't indicative of anything at all.

Truly though, even though I rationalized my read on you with the RBs that was more me trying to come up with some reason as to why I would be wrong about you. I never actually thought you were town from your posts, I only thought you were town because everyone else said so and because there had to be a reason they thought so. I simply assumed it after the n2 roleblock where I thought that scum might not risk it knowing there are more blues.

Having seen Hapa claim the RB I should have been more suspicious. I was at some point questioning that but again I didn't think you would waste your RB the entire game (unless you didn't have one and were faking it)

Hmm. Could you explain the first part? Wasn't it logical to keep my vote on grush as he was my "strongest scumread"? Wouldn't it have been instead scummy to move my vote to a lesser scumread like Lazer or Jay?

It was mostly a feel thing... Granted, I knew his alignment which made me look more convinced than I really should have shown, but it's true that Kush was more diplomatic there (especially in the beginning) and not diplomatic at all in this game (even though he only played in the beginning). I just thought I'd go with that feeling and try to make myself more townie by showing that I "cared" about the lynch. I obviously took it too far, but I think it was better than to sheep.

Xatalos

Finland9675 Posts

January 27 2013 03:09 GMT

#2251

On January 27 2013 12:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
Witchcraft had a "game" going on pregame - Chinese Grammar micro mafia.

Where kush was town.
He talked to me in some parts you quoted, and I didn't play in witchcraft.

he was scum in witchcraft then, that was later in the thread :D

I remember cause i totally carried that (pre)game.

Lol, really? Well, I'm glad nobody bothered to dig deeper into this :D I would have been in trouble for having such a strong opinion based on lazy and false reasoning.

Xatalos

Finland9675 Posts

January 27 2013 12:42 GMT

#2264

On January 27 2013 21:19 marvellosity wrote:
Hi guys. Great flavour by the hosts.

In all the shouting about townies playing properly, I should say the mafia-team played well. Hapa survived long enough to push some mislynches, while xata and jay played to their strengths (and weaknesses!).

As a scumteam, you have to beat what's put in front of you, and in that regard they succeeded admirably. I was impressed by both jay and xata overall.

It worked great for this game, but as for the bigger picture, this might not have been the wisest strategy :D For example Ace plays always quietly and hard-to-read in the beginning, then starts doing stuff later (or not if he's scum). But now I have a meta of discussing actively regardless of my alignment, so I'll HAVE to post a lot no matter what and I will be under extreme scrutiny because of this game especially. And straight from D1 too, since I shouldn't be so hard to read anymore.

Xatalos

Finland9675 Posts

January 27 2013 12:44 GMT

#2266

On January 27 2013 15:36 jaybrundage wrote:
Also WBG I been thinking of just straight up policy lynching people that lurk. If towns started doing this it would create a better game space. People mention lynch all lurkers occasionally but town needs to really implement it. So we can have a better town in general.

Yeah, I was really saddened by MrZentor

He was a MASON and yet he did absolutely nothing (after D1 at least) besides claiming Mason. He could have easily changed the game completely if he had put in a little bit of effort.

Xatalos

Finland9675 Posts

January 27 2013 12:44 GMT

#2267

On January 27 2013 21:43 Promethelax wrote:
Welcome to my life.

There's a hard road ahead of me :D

Xatalos

Finland9675 Posts

January 27 2013 13:05 GMT

#2268

On January 27 2013 13:34 wherebugsgo wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 27 2013 12:07 Xatalos wrote:

by itself it didn't mean much but as a townie in this type of situation I would expect doubt more than assuredness.

grush exemplified that, and I could actually understand that if he were town why he would be saying the things he would be saying. So, even though I was really frustrated at what he had done all game and why basically most players in his situation would have to be lynched for what he did, his play made sense from a town perspective.

From a logical perspective (since you asked about what it would have been logical to do) I think it varies slightly from player to player depending on their own biases toward the game and whatnot, but from my own experience, your job as town is to try and make sense of things. There were very many reasons to be confused in this situation and I wasn't convinced you were actually questioning the same things I was. I couldn't pin that on you simply not understanding the situation as town or whether you were scum at first, but as time went on closer to deadline I was becoming more and more suspicious.

Partly the reason I just flat out afked an hour before deadline was because I was mad, but also because I knew that if you were scum there was absolutely nothing I could do. There were strong signs you were and I just didn't have the drive, I was mentally exhausted at that point. I was simply broken, I couldn't bring myself to think logically and I needed to stop myself from raging so hard I'd do something much stupider than I had already. I was mostly mad at myself for not trusting my earlier reads, what jay was saying didn't really have that much of an impact (though that was a pretty neat strategy ^^)

I'll have to work on that in the future; I've been working on it for several months now and sometimes I can stay calm and sometimes I just can't. I'm not really sure what triggers it, tbh.

As for the meta stuff, here's what I'll say about it, with a short prelude and some other explanation, if anyone really cares, you can read it, if not, don't.

I'm going to say this now since I don't plan on doing this in the future and so I don't think this will affect my games. Ever since Space Station Mafia (if anyone here remembers that) in April I've been requesting town. I actually requested town a couple times before that too but not as regularly as I have been since. So for the last ~9 months I've been rolling town partly because of luck (some hosts have denied my requests) and mostly because I've been requesting it. I wanted to get better at scumhunting, and I think I am better at using meta now than I was before. I think it's a crucial tool and I am very very confident that players like Foolishness, sandro, Radfield, syllo, etc. would agree with me that correct use of meta often helps you catch mafia and separate townies from mafia much more quickly than otherwise.

I had a short conversation with GMarshal once during one of my earliest games, maybe my third or fourth here on the forum, something like a year and a half or more ago. I asked him why he was smurfing, as I had seen him smurf in several games at the time, and IIRC he asked me if I could guess. I said well, if you're smurfing then no one really knows who you are and they can't use past games to determine your alignment. He said exactly, meta matters. We had some sort of conversation about how meta is used or misused and whatnot (I don't really remember the details) but that phrase stuck with me ever since; meta matters.

Well, with kush here I think our conversation about his meta exemplified that you, for whatever reason, did not understand why the situation did not make kush (and by extension Lazer) town or scum based on meta alone. I ignored meta with regards to kush (I could have used it more specifically with Lazer but I wasn't feeling comfortable with his meta tbh) because I did not feel like the context of this game allowed for an adequate comparison between this game and Witchcraft. It didn't even provide an adequate comparison between this game and the newbie game, though it was a slightly better comparison. It was still bad, but I thought it might make kush slightly more likely to be scum.

My read on kush/Lazer wasn't based on meta though, and that's the problem. When you tried arguing that kush was trolling in this game and he wasn't in Witchcraft I sought your interpretation based on specifics, because simply making an assertion doesn't mean you've properly read into someone's past game history. When I didn't receive specifics I became suspicious. Either you were blinded, or you were scum. I became very suspicious when I saw you grasp at straws with those 4 posts you quoted, because I felt any reasonable townie would not characterized the two posts you quoted as trollish.

I have tried "metaing" people as scum and it can work pretty effectively, though in this case you didn't really have any consequence to the flip because there wouldn't be one. If you want an example, I believe in Mini X I might have metaed a couple people, where I was scum. I think I did in Couple's Therapy as well (against chaoser). Obviously these are fake and you can find holes in them but if you're looking for a convincing way to "look town" I think you can find those types of plays in the scum games of players like BC and Ace.

I guess you're correct. I was being too stubborn and doubtless even though the situation was very unclear and hard to read. And I had a severe confirmation bias - just spewing out stuff to make Lazer look more townish, not even actually considering if it made any sense or not. That's not actually too different from my town games (I usually get confirmation bias very easily as town) but still, it was just over-the-top. Part of my plan was to actually get Lazer on my side *if* Jay managed to get lynched somehow. I would have shot you and then made Lazer and grush fight each other to death. I think it worked reasonably well too:

On January 27 2013 09:02 Lazermonkey wrote:
WP Xata. Never really thought you were scum TBH.

It feels weird to give you advice since you're much more experienced than I am, but here goes:

- Playing scum from time to time might be more beneficial to your scumhunting than just playing town as often as possible - that's how criminal investigators also work, they try to get into the mindset of the criminal, and there's no better way than to experience it yourself!
- It was good and felt very townish how you questioned yourself about several reads, but you should have taken it further and gone through my filter closely - roleblocks are just one argument for my townishness, not clear evidence
- Not sure how you were so dead wrong on your reads for most of the game, but you were clearly trying and established your townishness, you just need more ability to figure out who are actually scum (playing scum might help, and giving more attention to stuff that just "feel off" like Hapa being pretty lurkish and not interested in figuring out players - although it was true that he was doing more than most townies in the game, but he should be compared to himself)

Xatalos

Finland9675 Posts

January 27 2013 13:10 GMT

#2269

Btw, I'm starting to get depressed about my following games and the heavy danger of getting seriously pressured and lynched regardless of my alignment now. Could someone maybe PM me (to make me a bit harder to read haha) tips on how to play as A) town B) scum from now on? I definitely can't repeat my strategies in this game as scum, and I'll have to be much more productive as town than ever before....