EPTParanoia Mafia - Page 61
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:39 wherebugsgo wrote: The only reason scum wouldn't have an RB is if there are 4 of them. That's not that out of the question considering that this game is 15 players. Even with 4 players, DT and vig are 2 very strong town roles in a mini. I would expect mafia to have a rb and a gf. It is also possible that mafia was simply stacked with vet players and got less powers as a result. Something I'm considering at least. Past that I don't really want to speculate because of the closed/themed nature of the setup. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:39 DoYouHas wrote: Keirathi, what I have gathered about you is that you think Sandro is town, and the rest is you pushing BH. You put together a pretty good case against BH based off of you following along even when you weren't playing. Are there any other players you had strong opinions/thoughts on that are still relevant? Strong opinions? Not particularly. I'm minorly interested in ShiaoPi/Zealos/(kinda)austin, outside of BH. (Maybe MrZ too, but I have no fucking clue how to read him.) Zealos because he hasn't done a damn thing. ShiaoPi because he didn't seem very invested in the game day 1, was happy to go along with the BH lynch while it was the popular opinion, and then happily changed his mind again as soon as the popular opinion was that BH was probably town. austin just because he's hard to read and he played follow-the-leader with his voting, which kind of reminds me of how he played in aperture. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On December 03 2012 20:03 wherebugsgo wrote: forgot to mention: to lend credence to my idea that VE was more willing to interact with townies than scum, note these cursory/sort of nebulous things: If you ctrl-f "marv" in VE's filter, you get the most hits out of anyone else in the game: 23. Ace: 21 (24 minus 3 occurrences of "ace" in a larger word) bugs: 15 blazing/bh/blz: 22 Xata: 14 DYH/doyou: 11 Zealos: 7 shiao/shaio: 5 austin: 5 LazerMonkey/Lazer: 2 Dandel: 2 MrZentor/Zentor/Mr: 0. I find it funny that this is almost directly correlated with the read I had on each player. By the way, this list is a piece of circumstantial evidence (at best...) but a pretty interesting list anyway. Considering that I have the "top 6" of this list as town reads (including marv, myself and DYH of course) - except Ace/Keirathi, whom I'm undecided about yet - I don't think I'm willing to lynch Keirathi today. This might seem like a stupid reason, but I agree with WBG that Mafia wouldn't unnecessarily interact with each other in the thread - this idea is given further credibility by he fact that VE mostly interacted with proven and probable townies (marv, WBG, DYH, BH, myself). I had austinmcc as a strong townread earlier, but maybe I'll have to take a closer look at him. I'm willing to give Dandel/Sandroba a pass though, since Dandel didn't interact with pretty much anyone and Sandroba has been very helpful with his posts. MrZentor and Lazermonkey are big mysteries to me... They need to post more content ASAP to make our lives easier. Zealos and ShiaoPi are also at the bottom, and I'm leaning heavily on lynching one of them at the moment. Any input on this? | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:44 Xatalos wrote: Meh... Forget about austinmcc. Looking at his filter again, there are so many townish posts standing out, I can't force myself to believe he's Mafia. If he somehow happened to be Mafia, then he's an extremely good liar. No way I'm voting for him unless something drastic happens. Go read his filter from Aperture 2. He played quite well. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [dota] + What DOES matter is that I just went 12-2-27 as invoker and still lost. This game is like a process of elimination right now. We have established several players as town and basically we just need to kill based on the flips we saw last night. It's that simple, really. I find it odd that BH is not around and talking, but certainly he has time to do so. Also seeing as sandro agrees with me it probably means shiao is scum lolol (<3 sandro scumhunting abilities) | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:03 Keirathi wrote: You silly. I didn't start the voting, but I did point out how much I disliked his post unvoting xatalos and voting DP. Shortly after that was when votes started coming in for him (Although MrZ did have a prior vote that he had removed and then brought back, so unsure if it was specifically because of my comment). I can see why that would remind you of aperture, but I am ze townie.Strong opinions? Not particularly. I'm minorly interested in ShiaoPi/Zealos/(kinda)austin, outside of BH. (Maybe MrZ too, but I have no fucking clue how to read him.) Zealos because he hasn't done a damn thing. ShiaoPi because he didn't seem very invested in the game day 1, was happy to go along with the BH lynch while it was the popular opinion, and then happily changed his mind again as soon as the popular opinion was that BH was probably town. austin just because he's hard to read and he played follow-the-leader with his voting, which kind of reminds me of how he played in aperture. I think if you look at WHEN I'm bringing things up here, you won't feel that I'm playing follow-the-leader, but I may just have a blind spot towards it. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
The votelist for DP is the one that interests me the most, it had the longest time for the wagon to build, so should have had the best chance of drawing at least 1 scum vote onto it. DarthPunk (5)<---- Has been lynched I'm town. marv was town. I have a very good reason to believe BH is not scum. I have a townread on debears. That leaves Lazermonkey as the only person I think could be mafia on a list where I'm pretty sure there is a mafia. Look at the post where Lazer votes DP. + Show Spoiler + On December 01 2012 18:48 Lazermonkey wrote: Just woke up... I really don't get how you can read so much into the Ace vote TBH. It was a joke obviously And it was less then one hour from game starting so I he was hardly in any danger at all. The fact that you are even using this as an argument against me is mind boggling. Also, I see how you can say that I don't have any reads yet when it's quite clear that he have a scum read on ShiaoPi...While I think WBG post about me was weak, DP ''case'' is FAR worse. This post is taken heavily out side of context. I said this to show how stupid ShiaoPi's arguments against Xata were. So if anything I am taking a stance AGAINST ShiaoPi. While it is true I had a null read on Xata at the time of this post(still do) that is totaly and utterly irrelavant. I don't really see how me making null reads on some players is making me scum. And the funny thing is, you find that my argument for saying that they are null makes me even more scummy. What a fucked up logic is that? So it would be better for me to simply say that they are null without even an explanation? If some action from some could be considered scummy or townie and it all comes down to WIFOM to determ which one it is, don't you think that is a null tell? While I may not have phrased myself in an optimal way I don't get how you can say that: ''You did not read the post where Xata explained his post very carefully, but why would you make a pressure against him then?'' = ''shiao you are town and made what I perceive to be an error.'' Like WTF, there is a huge diference between theese two. While a) could be done by a really crappy town player it also can be motivated from scum PoV. And saying that there is a 50% chance for either of my estimations is bullcrap. It comes down to which of the explanations you think is more likely. He obviously either did a) or b) but it doesn't really matter unless he is a bad town player in which case we might have to reconsider. But Afaik ShiaoPi is quite experienced player, no? Several times in this post DP are taking things out of context and he missinterprets ALOT of stuff. He is trying to make me look far worse than I in fact. There isn't any reason for this for town. Also notice how close after WBGs post this came. While I'd say it's quite unlikely that scum team WBG and DP would make a push at the same time against me, I think it's perfectly resonable to say that DP saw WBGs post and thought there were a decent chance to cause a bandwagon on me. DP just rose immensley on my scum-o-meter. While I am still suspicious of ShiaoPi because he is yet to come back and give a satisfying answer I think DP is looking worse. ##Unvote ##Vote DarthPunk DP is voting Lazer because he doesn't like the number of null reads Lazer has been giving out, and he didn't like Lazer's given reasons for voting Shiaopi. Lazer is not wrong that DP didn't do a great job showing why Lazer's reasons for voting Shiaopi were bad. However, Lazer doesn't stop with just defending himself. Instead he goes right past that and OMGUS votes DP. Thoughts? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:46 wherebugsgo wrote: w/e, RB or not it doesn't really matter. + Show Spoiler [dota] + What DOES matter is that I just went 12-2-27 as invoker and still lost. This game is like a process of elimination right now. We have established several players as town and basically we just need to kill based on the flips we saw last night. It's that simple, really. I find it odd that BH is not around and talking, but certainly he has time to do so. Also seeing as sandro agrees with me it probably means shiao is scum lolol (<3 sandro scumhunting abilities) (1) We all know that WBG raged at his team, went afk in fountain with Exort invoker, and stole all those kills/assists with Suntrike. (2) I'd like to hear more from you concering folks that aren't ShiaoPi or VE. I got not problem with you sitting back D1, but short of other claims it looks like you or sandro or DYH would be the likely mafia targets tonight. For instance, you wanted to pressure these folks: On December 02 2012 09:44 wherebugsgo wrote: I also think we should be pressuring these players: MrZentor Zealos Dandel Ion Shiaopi since they essentially got away with either abstaining or not doing anything all day 1. I haven't played with MrZ. I know he has a bit of a reputation. I've found him pretty clear and logical this whole game. Does that strike you as odd, or do you have a problem with that? Or does it make you think he's town? Do you still want to pressure him? Zealos hasn't posted since partway through D1. You brought him up a little in relation to VE, but what do you make of his actual posts. I didn't like them D1 when talking to LazerMonkey, BH found them townie, but you haven't said anything about the actual posts that he did make, which is all we have to go off of. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:00 DoYouHas wrote: Here is an interesting point that should be mentioned. In a situation where there are 3 townies on the chopping block (myself, marv, DP) mafia will almost always split their vote (every time in my experience). That means that there should be at least 1 mafia on me and on DP (and probably on marv, but that is less sure because of shiao and zealos being by themselves on others). The votelist for DP is the one that interests me the most, it had the longest time for the wagon to build, so should have had the best chance of drawing at least 1 scum vote onto it. DarthPunk (5)<---- Has been lynched I'm town. marv was town. I have a very good reason to believe BH is not scum. I have a townread on debears. That leaves Lazermonkey as the only person I think could be mafia on a list where I'm pretty sure there is a mafia. Look at the post where Lazer votes DP. + Show Spoiler + On December 01 2012 18:48 Lazermonkey wrote: Just woke up... I really don't get how you can read so much into the Ace vote TBH. It was a joke obviously And it was less then one hour from game starting so I he was hardly in any danger at all. The fact that you are even using this as an argument against me is mind boggling. Also, I see how you can say that I don't have any reads yet when it's quite clear that he have a scum read on ShiaoPi...While I think WBG post about me was weak, DP ''case'' is FAR worse. This post is taken heavily out side of context. I said this to show how stupid ShiaoPi's arguments against Xata were. So if anything I am taking a stance AGAINST ShiaoPi. While it is true I had a null read on Xata at the time of this post(still do) that is totaly and utterly irrelavant. I don't really see how me making null reads on some players is making me scum. And the funny thing is, you find that my argument for saying that they are null makes me even more scummy. What a fucked up logic is that? So it would be better for me to simply say that they are null without even an explanation? If some action from some could be considered scummy or townie and it all comes down to WIFOM to determ which one it is, don't you think that is a null tell? While I may not have phrased myself in an optimal way I don't get how you can say that: ''You did not read the post where Xata explained his post very carefully, but why would you make a pressure against him then?'' = ''shiao you are town and made what I perceive to be an error.'' Like WTF, there is a huge diference between theese two. While a) could be done by a really crappy town player it also can be motivated from scum PoV. And saying that there is a 50% chance for either of my estimations is bullcrap. It comes down to which of the explanations you think is more likely. He obviously either did a) or b) but it doesn't really matter unless he is a bad town player in which case we might have to reconsider. But Afaik ShiaoPi is quite experienced player, no? Several times in this post DP are taking things out of context and he missinterprets ALOT of stuff. He is trying to make me look far worse than I in fact. There isn't any reason for this for town. Also notice how close after WBGs post this came. While I'd say it's quite unlikely that scum team WBG and DP would make a push at the same time against me, I think it's perfectly resonable to say that DP saw WBGs post and thought there were a decent chance to cause a bandwagon on me. DP just rose immensley on my scum-o-meter. While I am still suspicious of ShiaoPi because he is yet to come back and give a satisfying answer I think DP is looking worse. ##Unvote ##Vote DarthPunk DP is voting Lazer because he doesn't like the number of null reads Lazer has been giving out, and he didn't like Lazer's given reasons for voting Shiaopi. Lazer is not wrong that DP didn't do a great job showing why Lazer's reasons for voting Shiaopi were bad. However, Lazer doesn't stop with just defending himself. Instead he goes right past that and OMGUS votes DP. Thoughts? DYH I was just coming to a similar conclusion. I don't think it's anything damning. Gotta look at how he voted and interacted with other people first (lazer that is) A big problem we had yesterday is that a lot of votes were in random places, which doesn't help town. That's why I'm more suspicious of the outliers | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Day 2 Votecount ShiaoPi (2) <-- set to be lynched wherebugsgo Sandroba Keirathi (2) Blazinghand ShiaoPi Blazinghand (1) Keirathi Zealos (1) Xatalos Not Voting (6) Zealos DoYouHas debears MrZentor austinmcc Lazermonkey ~27 hours until lynch. Remember to ##Unvote [Player Name] when moving votes, or they won't be counted. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
Link to ShiaoPi's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383489&user=224589 My main problem with Shaio is the fact that he always seems to be attacking the weakest person at any given time, always jumping off the wagon once that person is looking less likely to get misslynched. And his reasons for doing so has been awkward to say the least. I get the impression that he is trying to get people misslynched so badly that he forgets why that person is actually under so much pressure. First off we have Xata. He posts this post saying he is asking for the reason why Xata is asking for town reads EVEN if he already have. I can buy that he disagrees with his reasons, in fact several people did that. But pushing him for that and claiming that ''I know you to be a better player than just mindlessly share stuff like that as your contribution.'' is a strange way of doing so. He cannot obviously expect him to explain his play any further, espicially if he were to be scum. Another interesting thing is the fact that he doesn't even mention(except for once when he notes that xata is gone, however xata were present at several other occasions between the time of this post and the lynch) Xata anymore untill D2. On November 30 2012 22:30 ShiaoPi wrote: Xata marv already said why it is illadvised to share townreads without a good reason. So what is your reason? None of the mentioned townreads of your are in danger of getting lynched (deadline isnt that soon anyway). Nor have you cut down the number of players to figure out scum. So why do it? Really see no reason to do that. I know you to be a better player than just mindlessly share stuff like that as your contribution. Next up is BH. His reasons for voting Bh are quite peculiar as well... His main concern is that BH seems way too sure of that DP is scum based on his meta read. He does not comment on the fact that BH vote swaps like 5 times in just a few hours, he does not comment on that the cases are forced or bad, etc. On December 02 2012 01:40 ShiaoPi wrote: I just dont see how BH can be that decisive with that metaread he produced. DP aint that easy to read, I only got him in LVI via elimination and reaction. Especially if you consider BHs read on me in Liquid city which was extremely convincing in comparison to this one. On to my opinInon on Dp, he is a nullread. Cannot make too much out of him yet. I suck at d1 anyway. Lastly he votes Keir without any real reason beyond that he thinks his case against BH is bad, basically voting him purely based on OMGUS rather then evidence. On December 04 2012 00:24 ShiaoPi wrote: SNIP Now on to the good stuff: Keirathi Obviously my changed read on BH is important for a red kei. but let's start from looking at ace: -He has been dickish, trolly and unhelpful, not exactly a scumtell but it adds to the entire picture. -What makes me wonder is especially the parts in his filter with "shiao/debears/DYH"-interaction and "shiao/VE/DP"-interaction. I do not remember having thoroughly interacted much with DYH, there were some questions from debears which I answered, also I did not interact with VE/DP in a remarkable kind of way. So I have no clue where he got this from, conclusions he does not read the thread thoroughly and makes shit up as he goes to appear contributing. Moving on to Kei now, While I initially agreed with a lot of his points against BH, I was also in the game from the beginning. Now with a clear reread I do not read BH as scummy anymore, from someone who replaces in I would expect him to have a clear mindset as well and I believe Keirathi to be a good enough player to be able to come to the same conclusion as I did. The entire amount of tunneling onto BH as an "easy" target seems to me like an attempt to just derail the entire thread into bascially the same discussion we had at the end of d1. Also the complete disregard for anything else, why? Cuz scum! ##vote: Keirathi SNIP Every time he have voted someone, his reason has been quite silly. I feel this is very likely a scum mentality. Instead of looking for suspicious behavior and voting that person, he is looking for a good person to vote and then tries to justify the vote with ''suspicion''. ##Vote ShiaoPi | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:05 austinmcc wrote: (1) We all know that WBG raged at his team, went afk in fountain with Exort invoker, and stole all those kills/assists with Suntrike. They were too busy raging at each other over why PA kept running in LOL that and complaining we didn't have enough disables what with me casting sheep + cold snap + deafening + euls + tornado + ice wall every fight lolol (also euls sunstrike + meteor + blast combo is sexy) On December 04 2012 05:05 austinmcc wrote: (2) I'd like to hear more from you concering folks that aren't ShiaoPi or VE. I got not problem with you sitting back D1, but short of other claims it looks like you or sandro or DYH would be the likely mafia targets tonight. For instance, you wanted to pressure these folks: I haven't played with MrZ. I know he has a bit of a reputation. I've found him pretty clear and logical this whole game. Does that strike you as odd, or do you have a problem with that? Or does it make you think he's town? Do you still want to pressure him? Zealos hasn't posted since partway through D1. You brought him up a little in relation to VE, but what do you make of his actual posts. I didn't like them D1 when talking to LazerMonkey, BH found them townie, but you haven't said anything about the actual posts that he did make, which is all we have to go off of. I don't like Zealos's posts, that's why I attacked him d1 and considered him scum. I have him somewhere in the neutral zone because the VE interaction makes him less likely to be scum. And it isn't all we have to go off of, we have a flipped scum and cop. That counts for a lot more than just a given person's posts. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:55 austinmcc wrote: You silly. I didn't start the voting, but I did point out how much I disliked his post unvoting xatalos and voting DP. Shortly after that was when votes started coming in for him (Although MrZ did have a prior vote that he had removed and then brought back, so unsure if it was specifically because of my comment). I can see why that would remind you of aperture, but I am ze townie. I think if you look at WHEN I'm bringing things up here, you won't feel that I'm playing follow-the-leader, but I may just have a blind spot towards it. The point is, what I remember from Aperture was you making points/cases on people to test the waters, and when people started getting votes, you would vote. I will admit I don't remember the exact timings from Aperture. It was just an observation that you were hopping on the bandwagons after the started gaining traction. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
Also, when Keir brings this up, WBG responds with On December 04 2012 01:49 wherebugsgo wrote: Yet earlier he had saidmaybe bad scum do, cause that's fucking stupid. On December 02 2012 08:18 wherebugsgo wrote: While I understand these are not the same thing, same logic applies. Just because something isn't the optimal way for scum to play, does not mean they cannot play that way. So, why does this apply to not VEs filter but only against DYH?you don't lynch claimed blues on d1 out of policy because you're bad. Imagine every scum claimed some sort of blue d1, you're guaranteed to kill a townie day 1. This type of logic is just absurd. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I just met you guys, and this is Crazzzyyyy!!!! But wherebugsgo is scummy So lynch him maybe! Upon looking at WBG's game so far, since d1 I have found him scummy. Here are the summarized reasons 1) His reaction to the DP lynch and how it is different from his mindset before the lynch 2) His vote on Marv, who we now know was the detective 3) His worthlessness day 1 in terms of actively interacting with the thread and giving reads with good evidence 4) His n1, d2 posts 4) The Differences in meta 5) How he claims his meta is the same despite me showing otherwise All of these together make me pretty damn certain he is scum. This is gonna be a long one boyzzzzz 1) His reaction to the DP lynch and how it is different from his mindset before the lynch As we all know, Bugs flipped out on marv (and the rest of town) for the d1 lynch on DP. What did bugs say after the lynch you ask? On December 02 2012 08:27 wherebugsgo wrote: w/e I'm gonna go eat. Scoreboard: Me 1 Retard Train (aka everyone else) 0 On December 02 2012 08:16 wherebugsgo wrote: you fucking retards On December 02 2012 08:57 wherebugsgo wrote: man I asked you to come up with ONE example in context of how DP's meta fit him in this game. I argued that I came to the opposite conclusion and I was fairly loud about it to prevent him from getting bandwagoned. Yet, you chose to tell me to fuck off. No shit I got aggressive when the guy pushing the biggest bandwagon in the thread refuses to answer any questions about his reasoning. Alright, suffice to say, WBG thought very strongly that DP was town before the lynch. Let's look at his posts before the lynch + Show Spoiler + On December 02 2012 05:20 wherebugsgo wrote: yes, let's call scum one of the only players in the game who is not afraid to put forth his opinion. The fuck are you smoking? Where is your meta read of DP coming from? Based on my cursory reads of his meta and past games, I have to agree 100% with his defense (to BH) and that you're completely wrong about how he plays both mafia and town. In addition, since when is calling people dumb a scumtell? DP is clearly not afraid to draw attention to himself by saying the thread has so far been useless. I don't find that particularly scummy in most situations, so I don't understand how DP is suddenly the exception. A few questions 1) How was WBG so certain DP was town? 2) Why was he so willing to hard defend DP day 1? - I found DP's lack of activity during the second half of day1 very alarming, yet WBG never mentioned it 3) Why was he defending DP instead of letting DP defend himself? for 1, I have no fucking idea for 2 and 3, the only reason why is that he was convinced marv was scum. What I found extremely odd is that WBG never presented counter evidence to marv's meta case. This is all WBG said On December 02 2012 05:27 wherebugsgo wrote: Explain why DP is scummier than Zealos. Also everything you just said is not backed up by any evidence. I took a completely different interpretation from my reading of DP's posts in past games. Why don't you actually provide some evidence for your claims, since the burden of proof is on you to establish why DP is scum? That's all he says "i had a different interpretation". Why didn't he share exact posts to defend this guy whom he thought so strongly was town? Next, I want to point out the votecount near lynch + Show Spoiler + Day 1 Votecount (Complete) Ace (0) Xatalos (1) Dandel Ion (0) DoYouHas (4) debears (0) ShiaoPi (0) marvellosity (2) VisceraEyes (0) MrZentor (0) Lazermonkey (1) wherebugsgo (0) DarthPunk (5)<---- Has been lynched Blazinghand (1) Zealos (0) Not Voting (1) Dandel Ion Look at the vote race 4- DYH 5 - DP Before the DYH claim, since WBG thought DP was so much town, and he thought marv was so much scum, why didn't he make an effort to save DP by voting for DYH (the vig claim right before the lynch) When DYH was leading (before the claim) WBG never made any mention of DYH. How do you not make a single fucking comment about the lead lynch candidate if you are town and you think a strong town read of yours is close to getting lynched? This shows me that WBG didn't care about DYH getting lynched. If WBG was town, this could only mean that WBG thought DYH was scum. If he thought DYH was scum, why didn't he vote DYH when DP was close behind DYH for the lynch 2) His vote on Marv, who we now know was the detective During day 1, WBG seemed pretty convinced Marv was scum. Why? On December 02 2012 05:48 wherebugsgo wrote: let's kill marvellosity. Firstly: he has 6 pages of almost nothing but aggressive one liners. He calls out DP for being aggressive and antitown, yet he's arguably been the most "aggressive" and antitown player all game. I chalked this up to him just being his normal town self, but something seems off in his reasoning this game. He seems artificially bold and he doesn't actually have good reasoning for anything that he's saying. Indeed he just tried to use a position of authority on DP ("I got his alignment right before" bullshit) instead of actually furthering his case with evidence. When I asked for evidence that supports his claims, he just told me to fuck off. It's clear he's full of hot air and is just a scum flailing around trying to make accusations stick. His accusation on me clearly didn't stick after his half-assed shitty "contradiction" case. It was clear to anyone who was reading the thread that I am not scum, and only the bandwagon-happy and lazy players actually agreed with him. Check this out: How does he know what I think based on one post I made at the time? He says I had no intention on following up on my questions, before i had posted anything. ??? He calls out Zealos at some point for misrepresentation, yet this is as shining of an example of misrepresentation as one could ever find. ##unvote Zealos ##vote marvellosity He says that "Marv didn't provide more evidence". That's funny WBG never provided evidence for why he thought DP was town meta-wise. That was his whole problem with Marv, a scumread on DP. Very weird Also, when BH and I mentioned no counterclaim = no lynch claimed blue d1. Why does this make sense, especially with Marv? 1) There could be a gf and a framer on the scum team, meaning a real Dt's checks wouldn't be solid gold anyways if the real DT even lived that long 2) There are only 3/4 scum most likely. If Marv fake claimed, would it not be worth it to out a very good scum player for a blue, especially a blue like DT who has a 1/14 chance night 1 to even get a good check? Why would WBG not realize this? I don't know, other than he is scum wanting to lynch the detective Also, I had a town read on Marv since the beginning of day 1. I don't understand how WBG could have gotten such a different view of Marv's day 1 if WBG was town. Next, after the lynch, WBG kept tunneling marv, attacking marv for the mislynch Why would a town WBG do this? Try to get his believed to be scum lynched Why would a scum WBG do this? He could tunnel him, look like he cared about the lynch (when he really didn't), be active, and look decisive, all without making reads on other players. The difference in why I found the town perspective less likely is that he did so at night, when there is so much time to lynch someone. Often, arguments in the night phase get forgotten by the day post because it starts becoming repetitive. 3) His worthlessness day 1 in terms of actively interacting with the thread and giving reads with good evidence Let me sum up WBG's day 1 for you 1) I'm not convinced marv is scum, yet 2) A vote post for laser 3) A vote post for Zealos 4) Marv is scum and DP is totally town. Lynch Marv!!!! Let's examine why his d1 is scummy. 1) He locked on to Marv early. Why, I do not know, I had a town read on Marv early 2) He did not pursue this past one post. A weak post at that 3) He did not pursue this past one post. Hey a trend coming up here! 4) Let's lynch the uncountered detective! Let's not lynch this guy I believe strongly is town (when he has no evidence, just saying he interpreted DP's meta differently). Also, let me not save my town read by keeping my vote worthlessly on marv!!! Yeah!!!! Good strat for a townie!!! 4) His n1, d2 posts Let me summarize 1) Marv is so scum 2) Wait let me attack BH for meta with no evidence! 3) Oh wait let's pressure these guys. Don't worry though I won't do it myself On December 02 2012 09:44 wherebugsgo wrote: I also think we should be pressuring these players: MrZentor Zealos Dandel Ion Shiaopi since they essentially got away with either abstaining or not doing anything all day 1. Meanwhile, I'll still go after BH! Yeah! 4) DYH is probably town! 5) Hey let's lynch this ShiaoPi guy! 6) Hey look at my research on how often VE says someone's name! Let's see why this is scummy 1) Stated earlier 2) Another meta read from him with no evidence. I see a trend! 3) States who we should pressure. Doesn't follow up 4) Obvious duh. Anyone could say that 5) Let's look at his reasoning On December 03 2012 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote: The fact that BH thinks Keirathi is scum is an attest to him either being scum or stupid. Neither works out well. As I said earlier, I think we should consider ShiaoPi as a lynch candidate. I also thought that we should consider Dandel/sandro today but based on sandro's contributions so far I don't think that's a good idea. If sandro continues being useful I'm inclined to call him town; he's remarkably easy to catch as scum. I wouldn't mind killing BH but I have an inkling he's just being dumb. Clearly I should've erred on the side of "marvel is saying stupid stuff about DP" instead of "marvel is scum because of how he can't see DP is town." (and once again I should've trusted my earlier read) The tl;dr reason for why I think we should consider ShiaoPi is this: On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote: Shiao is.......I want to wait on Shiao. At least a day. Maybe tomorrow. I'm not really reading Shiao as scum right now. Also note I'm less willing to lynch BH and Zealos given how some events unfolded and this: On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote: As it stands, I'm willing to lynch inside [Zealos, Dandel, Blazinghand] today. In that order. ##Unvote ##Vote: Zealos Of note is that VE's only mentions of Dandel came in this post, which make it entirely plausible that VE was simply throwing forward Dandel's name to distance himself from a scumbuddy. His only mentions of Shiao also come in this post. In general scum ignore some of their team and thrust some others into the limelight. It serves to hedge both bets; one that they can potentially bus, and the other that they can preserve their team. Almost every scum does this, and I don't think VE is any exception to that. While he mentions Shiao and Dandel only in these posts, he mentions other players (such as Zealos, whom he actually voted for) in other posts and multiple times with at least cursory reasoning. In addition he pushed dabears fairly aggressively, as if he was looking for people to bandwagon with him on dabears. That makes me feel like it's unlikely dabears is scum (although I already had a town read on him anyway) and I think it strengthens the idea that VE interacted more with townies than with his fellow scum. Anyway, a lot of this is connection-based, but given that these players have been flying under the radar, there isn't much else to put on the table with respect to their play anyway. To rehash what I said earlier about Dandel/sandro; since sandro seems to be helpful, let's leave him alive. His presence has caused my read of him to improve, since Dandel literally didn't do anything at all. If sandro is indeed town he's our best player anyway. Of the remaining players I think LazerMonkey also deserves attention. Off the top of my head I can't think of any strong positions he's taken all game, and that's not something you generally note about townies. (curiously, VE never mentions LazerMonkey once, unless you count an indirect mention of an observation I made of Lazer) ##vote ShiaoPi "The main reason why I want to lynch ShiaoPi is using the words of a confirmed scum to WIFOM onto why ShiaoPi is scum!!!!" For one post!!!! Yeahhhh!!!!! 6) On December 03 2012 20:03 wherebugsgo wrote: forgot to mention: to lend credence to my idea that VE was more willing to interact with townies than scum, note these cursory/sort of nebulous things: If you ctrl-f "marv" in VE's filter, you get the most hits out of anyone else in the game: 23. Ace: 21 (24 minus 3 occurrences of "ace" in a larger word) bugs: 15 blazing/bh/blz: 22 Xata: 14 DYH/doyou: 11 Zealos: 7 shiao/shaio: 5 austin: 5 LazerMonkey/Lazer: 2 Dandel: 2 MrZentor/Zentor/Mr: 0. I find it funny that this is almost directly correlated with the read I had on each player. What does this post offer town? Absolutely nothing. It's not about how often he mentions someone's name. IT'S THE CONTEXT. WBG WOULD KNOW THIS WITH HIM BEING A VET. How does VE interact with people? Not how many times he says their names. ALSO YET AGAIN HE'S USING THE WORDS OF A CONFIRMED SCUM TO MAKE HIS READS. WOW THAT'S THE MAIN BASIS FOR EVERYTHING HE'S SAYING TODAY He's trying to WIFOM people into being scum, which is not town behavior 4) The Differences in meta I have already made a Meta case on WBG. I have something to add. In the one game that I found similar to this one if WBG is indeed town (Mad men) In mad men, WBG, who had a town read on Erandor, kept callin Erandor stupid and kept trying to convince Erandor that he himself was town. Erandor tunnelled the shit out of bugs In this game, I have tunnelled WBG quite a bit. WBG also has a town read on me. What is weird you ask? WBG has failed to acknowledge me head on this game, despite the similarity this game would have if WBG was town. Let me show you some posts from this game and Mad Men Mad Men On August 04 2012 09:17 wherebugsgo wrote: If you want to continue tunneling me, go ahead and waste your time. I'll be in my office drinking my milk. Otherwise help me get rid of that grush fool who hasn't learned yet that his place is in the elevator and not the accounts department. On August 04 2012 19:57 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm discrediting your arguments BECAUSE THEY'RE WRONG. On August 04 2012 20:36 wherebugsgo wrote: yo guys I can't play with Erandorr anymore, he's too fucking bad. Just lynch me. ##unvote ##vote wherebugsgo I'm not even kidding, this is a waste of my time. I know I have said that it's a priority for townies to establish their innocence d1 and all that. However, if you actually agree with him that I am scum then there is no way I will be relieved of suspicion at any point in this game. If I catch scum, you will say I bussed them because I am good at scum. If I don't catch scum, then I will be lynched for not catching scum. Just kill me now and get it over with so that we're all happier for it. This game (in reference to me) NOTHING AT ALL besides a fucking mention of a town read on me On December 03 2012 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote: The fact that BH thinks Keirathi is scum is an attest to him either being scum or stupid. Neither works out well. As I said earlier, I think we should consider ShiaoPi as a lynch candidate. I also thought that we should consider Dandel/sandro today but based on sandro's contributions so far I don't think that's a good idea. If sandro continues being useful I'm inclined to call him town; he's remarkably easy to catch as scum. I wouldn't mind killing BH but I have an inkling he's just being dumb. Clearly I should've erred on the side of "marvel is saying stupid stuff about DP" instead of "marvel is scum because of how he can't see DP is town." (and once again I should've trusted my earlier read) The tl;dr reason for why I think we should consider ShiaoPi is this: Also note I'm less willing to lynch BH and Zealos given how some events unfolded and this: Of note is that VE's only mentions of Dandel came in this post, which make it entirely plausible that VE was simply throwing forward Dandel's name to distance himself from a scumbuddy. His only mentions of Shiao also come in this post. In general scum ignore some of their team and thrust some others into the limelight. It serves to hedge both bets; one that they can potentially bus, and the other that they can preserve their team. Almost every scum does this, and I don't think VE is any exception to that. While he mentions Shiao and Dandel only in these posts, he mentions other players (such as Zealos, whom he actually voted for) in other posts and multiple times with at least cursory reasoning. In addition he pushed dabears fairly aggressively, as if he was looking for people to bandwagon with him on dabears. That makes me feel like it's unlikely dabears is scum (although I already had a town read on him anyway) and I think it strengthens the idea that VE interacted more with townies than with his fellow scum. Anyway, a lot of this is connection-based, but given that these players have been flying under the radar, there isn't much else to put on the table with respect to their play anyway. To rehash what I said earlier about Dandel/sandro; since sandro seems to be helpful, let's leave him alive. His presence has caused my read of him to improve, since Dandel literally didn't do anything at all. If sandro is indeed town he's our best player anyway. Of the remaining players I think LazerMonkey also deserves attention. Off the top of my head I can't think of any strong positions he's taken all game, and that's not something you generally note about townies. (curiously, VE never mentions LazerMonkey once, unless you count an indirect mention of an observation I made of Lazer) ##vote ShiaoPi Lol. There is no way this dude is town. I have accused him of being scum multiple times, he has not answered to any of my posts on him, and he has a town read on me. YET DESPITE TAKING ON HIS ACCUSER IN MAD MEN HE HAS NOT DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT WITH ME THIS GAME 5) How he claims his meta is the same despite me showing otherwise Here's my old post on his meta, and how his town meta does not follow a pattern like he so says + Show Spoiler + On December 02 2012 00:47 debears wrote: Question WBG I see what you mean by getting steamrolled by tunneling townies in Mad Men http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668&user=60039 Mad men - Bugs is insulting most of the game after being under heavy pressure In Big Bang, you did silly stuff, but you also 1) had to replace out, meaning that you most likely 1didn't have time to make posts at the beginning and 2) The game started in night phase, and you were a VT, meaning you had no impact on night actions. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336250&user=60039 In TL Mafia LV, you didn't even show up for d1. However, your play in bureaucracy seems much different from your town play in mad men. You have a lot of posts that actually state something before July 18 at 14:21, which was the end of day 1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=60039 Bureaucracy Mafia Much more involved in Bureau In fact, here's a sample post from Bureau in the first half of day 1 In other words, based on the two above, you are lying about your pattern of play. Or you have no idea how you play town. Or you have other games I didn't go far back enough to see. Do you see a pattern in these games? Hell no. You go from worthless, replacing out, not showing up for d1, to being good d1 Can you provide me with your other most recent town games? WBG has to be scum. There is no way he is town in my eyes. Just look at all that shit. I was planning on waiting til later to post this, but it's such a long read, and I'm so convinced after writing it, that I want to get this in the game pronto | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I spent foreverz on it :D | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
##Vote WBG | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
why, as scum, would I purposely put myself so against the guy who claimed cop, knowing my team would then shoot him, making me look terrible? Can you answer that for me? + Show Spoiler + I'm going to take a wild guess that you'll pull the WIFOM card on me here's a reason I'm not answering you: it's a fucking waste of time. I don't find scum by telling you that you're wrong. I'm not threatened by your accusations because they aren't substantiated and I don't think anyone else is dumb enough to believe you. I am very sure you are town for exactly the same reasons Erandorr was town in Mad Men. You're just too loud and tunneling too hard to be anything but a misguided townie. So, why should I fall for the bait and try to reason with someone who I know is already convinced I'm scum? No matter what I'll say, your bias will lead you to calling me scum. Therefore it's almost fruitless for me to acknowledge your existence. Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'm going to go back to ignoring you until you come up with something reasonably intelligent. | ||
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