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##Unvote
I'm more and more convinced that I may have been wrong about debears. Upon closer inspection I realised that his early FoS in XXIX was against a scum buddy of his, meaning he never planned to follow through on it. So he must have had different reasons for FoSing me early this game. In addition, I have to concede that even if he may have been a bit brusque in his attitude towards some of the newer players, it has indeed gotten them to talk, something which is undoubtedly good for town.
I also may have overestimated the importance of his vote switching. The fact that he did find sylver scummy and then kept arguing with him about it should probably be a town tell, seeing as it revealed a lot of what sylver claimed to be his motivations for voting was.
The problem now though is, I'm not yet convinced that Clarity is scummy, but at this point I don't know who else to vote. I definitely think that Clarity's behaviour seems weird, he didn't really commit to any strong stance until he was pressured to do so by being voted. Yet we could say the same thing about Cheese or even Rad as they've been getting away with "blending in" almost as much as Clarity in my opinion. Cheese's only major stance he has taken yet has been to FoS Djod because Djod thought Cheese joking was scummy, yet what else? Soft-disagreeing with both the lynches because they may or may not be scum?
Not to mention the fact that Cheese isn't even trying to push a Djod lynch even though he said that he's "on the list" when I asked for his strongest reads. He's content with just sitting and soft-commenting and being pretty neutral about everything.
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Let's see:
Early game, clarity didn't really make a lot of big reads... but nobody was really making big, meaningful reads. There was debears v Alsn, and Djo FOSing cheese. Since then, Alsn has been on nearly everybody's town radar. He woke up to a lot of accusations and made his big List'o'reads. Some people criticized it for being a list, but I'm not convinced that's a useful criticism. Since then there's been a lot of pressure on Clarity, and he's trying to deal with it but not particularly well. Slight scum read.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2012 06:08 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:@RadI liked how you had that townie read on me last game  . I think you had that read because I was playing very neutral (no strong ultra-mega reads) and using logical points. Is Clarity doing that this game? To you, does he seem like me in the previous game? (Original quote had Obzy's name in place of Clarity, but he EBWOPed it to say he meant Clarity a few minutes later)
In the above quote Cheese is doing something he has done earlier in the thread, suggesting someone is acting "just how we acted as scum last game" without actually saying he thinks that the person in question is scummy for it.
He did the same early in the game when he accused debears of FoSing early just like he did against Dandel in XXIX:+ Show Spoiler +On November 03 2012 11:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Debears you seem really paranoid. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 10:42 debears wrote:
Yeah i am. He calls me a liarin red and then peaces out without wanting to hear my thoughts. Aint that scummy? Considering how active he was around lynch time last game, which was only an hour before this He didn't call you, Debears the person, a liar. You're taking Alsn's nit-pick of a post awfully personally. The quick, useless FoS is also the same exact tactic you used last game. Old hat, Debears, old hat.
I'd say Cheese skating by without taking any strong positions except in the case where he wanted to avoid suspicion himself is pretty scummy. He's almost deliberately avoiding taking a stance on any controversial issues, with his filter mostly consisting of pointing out minor inconsistencies as if to show that he's here. Examples in the following spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 03 2012 10:44 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 10:42 debears wrote:
Yeah i am. He calls me a liar in red and then peaces out without wanting to hear my thoughts. Aint that scummy? Considering how active he was around lynch time last game, which was only an hour before this Are you really trying to play the activity card on Alsn? It's like 1-2AM there for him.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2012 01:44 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 01:39 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:13 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote:
Holy shit, this flavor. What.
If we're gonna lynch a lurker, I'd rather it be early game than late, at least. But I think that we have more... dedication among the townies this game. There wasn't a long wait for the last few signups - everyone here seems pretty pumped to play some mafia seriously. I don't think lurker policy lynch will come up at all. You said townies. That's very different than saying the town or players. Very, very different. It means that you either 1) Think the people being active are townies 2) Know that the people being active are townies There is no other reason for using townies to describe those of us who are showing activeness and dedication Also, you voted me, meaning you voted for someone who you think is townie based on the above. That is scummy as shit debears, even if we hypothetically assume the two most active players are scum, it would still mean that town on the whole is being active and not lurking. I think your argument is bad and your insistence that his statement is a scum slip is far fetched imho. I agree with the underlined. As scum last game I focused on Djo's scumslip to help push his lynch even though it was a very questionable one.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2012 05:46 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 05:40 Djodref wrote:
@ Rad
1My main goal with the sudden FoS on Cheese was to spark some discussion. I said it was confusing but it was more a pretext. The truth is that I didn't like it. Using sarcasm was not a brillaint idea but agin, I wanted to show that I was trying to spark discussion.
2.It's very important to state your reasons for your vote. Sylverfire failed to explain what he wanted from debears with his vote so I didn t see it as a pressurr vote. It turned out that it was more like a super FoS. I'm not against pressure voting but you have to state clearly what is your goal with it. Voting for casting suspicion upon someone sounds like voting for voting in my opinion.
3. It was me indeed but I don t think we need the policy for this game. The activity level is high and you can vote for anyone if you have a problem. It works better this way I think. Hmm... @Rad What do you think about that underlined portion right there?
I'd like you to explain what your stances really are without wishy-washy "maybe this maybe that" points that tell us nothing.
FoS Mr. Cheesecake
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@Clarity
How did you go from this
On November 05 2012 01:55 Clarity_nl wrote:
I'm here now. Please give me a bit to reply as I do need to make dinner as well. Yes Djo my case was going to be about you, it's funny how that works huh, debears popping in with a giant case with bolded red lettering all over it?
to this
On November 05 2012 03:40 Clarity_nl wrote:My case on debears: All game long he's been accusing people of FoS'ing him while he's away. The reason it's interesting is that he doesn't mention when he leaves, it's just "unlucky" I guess. But it's a good way to redirect attention to whomever is accusing him. By itself this doesn't mean much, but by the end of this post you should know why I'm extremely suspicious of debears. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:25 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 13:23 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 13:09 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 03 2012 13:00 Djodref wrote:@ CheeseI'm pretty sure that the following quote was totally serving your mafia agenda in the last game. But I guess I should better trust you because I don't really see why you should be dishonest right now about it. On October 29 2012 13:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Holy meta argument Batbears. Are you saying that Dandel under pressure is basically = Kush in terms of meta? Let's take a look at the second one On October 28 2012 09:20 Rad wrote:
Djo NOW YOU SHOW UP? On October 28 2012 09:21 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
A wild Djo appears? I don't know if you have seen Rad post or not before posting yours but I really felt that you were both accusing me of active lurking. Why the lolwut by the way ? What did you not understand in my comment ? @Djo The second part of the first quote isn't a joke. It's an analogy. Therefore it has nothing to do with anything. The second quote: Pokemon reference, it means I think of you as a pokemon. Pokemon are innocent and cute; I'm not casting aspersions on you in the least. Yes, @obsQT I just mentioned pokemon. We could go with this WIFOM crap all day. These "jokes" means absolutely nothing. Are we seriously still talking about a failboat joke? Stop this incessant attempt to tunnel me--it bears no weight at all because it is probably one of the most subjective things one could possibly focus on. Especially since it's coming from another game entirely. I declare this useless argument over *gavel slam*. @ CheeseI'll stop tunneling you when I'm satisfied with your answers. Why do you want us to stop discussing ? This discussion has derived from its original point to go something quite useless, I agree. My point is that you could have used these jokes to make me look bad. I know this was a pokemon reference but I think "a wild Djo appears" was implying active lurking, especially in the context of the thread, rather than implying that I was innocent as a pokemon. My point is that jokes can be used by mafia to cast suspicion on a player without looking like you are doing it. It's a great tool used this way. Djo, if you are town, stop arguing over stupid points. You're wrong. Get over it If you're mafia, keep arguing Debears does two things here. 1. He halts discussion. He doesn't change subject, he just stops the current one. 2. He calls djo wrong. There is no explanation. Just: "You're wrong. Get over it" He's also telling Djo to stop being an idiot, NOW. Why would he want him to stop if he had nothing better to discuss? My current scumreads have changed wildly with recent developments. To me, a debears/djodref scumteam seems most likely, but since djo has set it up so that I cannot post a useful case about him now I'm posting this instead.
What makes you think you can't post a case on Djo right now when he's one of your top scumreads?
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EBWOP: His filter is mostly that, or him suspecting Djodref. The majority of his filter is him talking to Djodref, but I find it extremely suspicious that he wouldn't try to push for a Djod lynch way before now and instead just sit back and let us all decide between Clarity or debears.
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On November 05 2012 06:42 Alsn wrote:
##Unvote
I'm more and more convinced that I may have been wrong about debears. Upon closer inspection I realised that his early FoS in XXIX was against a scum buddy of his, meaning he never planned to follow through on it. So he must have had different reasons for FoSing me early this game. In addition, I have to concede that even if he may have been a bit brusque in his attitude towards some of the newer players, it has indeed gotten them to talk, something which is undoubtedly good for town.
I also may have overestimated the importance of his vote switching. The fact that he did find sylver scummy and then kept arguing with him about it should probably be a town tell, seeing as it revealed a lot of what sylver claimed to be his motivations for voting was.
The problem now though is, I'm not yet convinced that Clarity is scummy, but at this point I don't know who else to vote. I definitely think that Clarity's behaviour seems weird, he didn't really commit to any strong stance until he was pressured to do so by being voted. Yet we could say the same thing about Cheese or even Rad as they've been getting away with "blending in" almost as much as Clarity in my opinion. Cheese's only major stance he has taken yet has been to FoS Djod because Djod thought Cheese joking was scummy, yet what else? Soft-disagreeing with both the lynches because they may or may not be scum?
Not to mention the fact that Cheese isn't even trying to push a Djod lynch even though he said that he's "on the list" when I asked for his strongest reads. He's content with just sitting and soft-commenting and being pretty neutral about everything.
I'm not going to push a Djo lynch again, mainly because arguing with him is a game of cat and mouse. I think neutrality is going to become an integral part of my play D1 anyway. Taking a huge stance this early just doesn't seem all that feasible for me, because a lot of my arguments are "nit-picky" as Djo calls it. Once the first person flips, things become a lot more clear to me based on context and I can go from there.
At this point, the only reason I'd vote for Debears is to get concrete info, which isn't a good thing. I'd vote Clarity because his Debears counter-case is really OMGUSy and he seems like the person to actively lurk.
Brb dinner. Also, Regular Fapper.
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Vote Count!
If your vote is not properly formatted it might not be counted. Everyone is required to vote.
Clarity_nl (3) - Djodref, debears, Obzy
debears (2) - Clarity_nl, sylverfyre, da0ud, sylverfyre, Alsn
Djodref (0) - sylverfyre
da0ud (0) - Clarity_nl, debears, debears
sylverfyre (0) - djodref, debears
Not Voting (4) - Rad, Mr. Cheesecake, da0ud, Alsn
Currently, Clarity_nl is set to be lynched! If you see that your vote is incorrect then pm me. You have about 3 hours left to vote! Deadline is at 01:00 GMT (+00:00)
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@ debears
I have the case in hand, I will post it if it looks like I'll be lynched, otherwise I will post it tomorrow.
Djo was trying to pressure me into posting my case on him, starts adding that he won't be around for lynchtime, that's fine.
I come back, you and him both have cases on me, and turns out Djo is in South Korea(??) so he's not around for 7 hours before lynchtime.
He then points out that I just don't want him to put up a defense, says he's going to bed, replies to my post 10 minutes later emphasizing that if I post a case on him it just means I don't want him to be there to defend himself. I feel set up, but nothing I can do.
I didn't go from "this" to "that". Notice how I said: "Yes Djo my case was going to be about you"
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On November 05 2012 06:26 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 06:19 Rad wrote:On November 05 2012 06:08 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:@RadI liked how you had that townie read on me last game . I think you had that read because I was playing very neutral (no strong ultra-mega reads) and using logical points. Is Obzy doing that this game? To you, does he seem like me in the previous game? On November 05 2012 06:08 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
ebwop: Is Clarity doing that this game* No, I feel like Clarity is putting himself out there more than you did last game. You were very safe attacking djo because everyone thought he was scum. Though I don't agree with his fluff argument, it seems sincere, and really the whole fluff argument is entirely subjective (which is why I thought it would get dropped early, but it's stuck around). Rad, something I would like to point out. Did clarity start off the game by putting himself out there? Or did it take 2 cases on him to start actually taking stances?
Even if this is true, I can't really read into it. I myself don't really take strong stances at the beginning. He was acting very townie to me in the early game, trying to get us out of the policy lynch discussion asap, being active by asking questions and responding to them. Just because he wasn't super aggressive from the start doesn't really tell me anything. His timing on putting himself out there fits with having enough information to start doing so.
His early vote on da0ud was weak but i could read it either way, townie or scum, so null. More like an unneeded pressure vote than anything.
I dunno, the more I look through his content the more he seems townie to me =/ Like, townie who's trying, succeeding at some things but failing at others due to poor reasoning, and then cases are built around his failures.
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ebwop: if you put the two sentences you highlighted together they make sense.
"My case was going to be about djo but he made it so I can't post a useful case on him"
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@Clarity
He did say he'd be back a few hours before lynch right?
And is there anything new in your case that hasn't been said yet about him?
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In fact, I'm inclined to vote Cheese over Clarity at this point as most likely to be scum. I still think there are good points made against clarity, but mostly they are inconsistencies or weird logic(such as the latest one pointed out by debears) and I don't think being inconsistent is necessarily a scum tell. Not keeping track of your own thoughts seems to me to be a town tell(since townies are not that concerned with keeping their story straight).
Why I think Mr. Cheesecake is scum
- For avoiding attention and skating by other than to discredit an attacker against himself.
- Stating again and again that Djodref is his top scum read, yet not even seeming remotely interested in pushing a Djod lynch.
- Being suggestive about other people's behaviour as scummy, yet not seeming to believe it himself.
##Vote: Mr. Cheesecake
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And now it seems Cheese has left for dinner right after I accuse him but before I have time to vote him.
What does everyone else think about Mr. Cheese then?
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On November 05 2012 07:04 debears wrote:
@Clarity
He did say he'd be back a few hours before lynch right?
And is there anything new in your case that hasn't been said yet about him?
The point he repeated over and over is that I didn't want him to defend himself, which simply isn't true. His point being that he's afraid I'll post the case right after he leaves and by the time he returns everyone has made up his mind, I don't want this result either, so I'm holding off.
Yes it has new stuff, but nothing huge. Mainly it links all the inconsistencies he has, and how he's consistent in something he was not last game.
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I've been focusing too much on Cheese for the last hour or so, I'll look at what has happened so far because the last few posts make no sense at all to me(I don't understand the context).
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Oh I see, you're talking about Djod being afk.
I agree with debears here, I don't understand why you wouldn't make a case against Djod just because he left. If you thought he was the most likely to be scum, you should have went for it.
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Anyone going to even consider Cheese or at least point out if I'm wrong about something? If you truly think Clarity was just blending in, then why should Cheese be excused? Clarity is at least pushing someone he has stated was his top scum read. Cheese just wants to wait for more information without even having to commit to a vote? Come on.
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EBWOP: Among his top scum reads.
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On November 05 2012 07:21 Alsn wrote:
Oh I see, you're talking about Djod being afk.
I agree with debears here, I don't understand why you wouldn't make a case against Djod just because he left. If you thought he was the most likely to be scum, you should have went for it.
A lot of things changed, mainly the fact that I slept for 5 hours in the middle of the day and woke up to two cases against me and a bunch of posts by Djo saying "Clarity is just waiting until I leave so he can screw me over". It feels unfair, I think he has a point but it still pisses me off.
On November 03 2012 12:49 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:34 Obzy wrote:
I don't think that getting a read off of whether or not Cheese has a joking tone or not really means anything at all. At least, the fact that he's aware of it means that he could manipulate it either way. I agree, this isn't much better than making a Djodref smiley case. I think the two things to take away from all this though: - Debears defended Cheese - Djodref tunneling Cheese Might become useful later.
Anyone remember this post? To which debears replied:
On November 03 2012 12:53 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:49 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 03 2012 12:34 Obzy wrote:
I don't think that getting a read off of whether or not Cheese has a joking tone or not really means anything at all. At least, the fact that he's aware of it means that he could manipulate it either way. I agree, this isn't much better than making a Djodref smiley case. I think the two things to take away from all this though: - Debears defended Cheese - Djodref tunneling Cheese Might become useful later. Besides stating the obvious, do you agree with me or djo on this?
Now, debears calls everyone usless one way or the other so that's a null tell, but I just found this and I can't tell if this makes scumteam debears/djo more or less likely? After this there are a bunch of instances of one following the other.
It's rather interesting that he asked me to pick between him and djo, rather than asking me if Cheese's joke is a null tell or not. Am I just getting paranoid now? I need fresh eyes.
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@ Alsn
I don't think there's a way for me to comment on cheese without screwing myself over. I don't think "staying neutral" is a scum tell on D1, but people clearly think so since it's the lynchpin (lol) of the cases on me.
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EPT
