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drazak
Profile Joined November 2011
United States479 Posts
October 24 2012 01:18 GMT
#801
I mean, if we're wrong, and hapa's read is wrong, then shit, mislynch, hope doc makes a good save, hope parity cop is alive or boxer knows when to claim, and then go after hapa as long as there's no good evidence to his defense. Marv hasn't adequately defended himself by anyone's means as far as I'm concerned, why are you so defensive of him DP?
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10857 Posts
October 24 2012 01:21 GMT
#802
On October 24 2012 10:14 Hapahauli wrote:
Well under the assumption that marv's town, Drazak plopped down a quick vote on someone he finds scummy. I suspect that you're finding this bit scummy:

Show nested quote +
Wow, that post, I skimmed it before, but reading it again,I'm really starting to believe it, it's pretty comprehensive and those signs are pretty exact. I think if we lynch marv and he's scum, whomever the medic is has to save hapa because that wouldn't be a bus, but if marv isn't scum, maybe lynch hapa the next day?


...which I don't see as scummy given that he talks about the possibility that marv flips scum as well. It's just an overall part of his analysis methinks.


He afk's for an entire day. Then he sheeps the first vote of the day for a second time. Then he says if marv flips town lets lynch hapa.

I know that I am making some assumptions here. But this is exactly what scum wants to achieve.

Sheep a mislynch. Then put in the ground work for a follow up mislynch the next day. Yes it is based on assumptions. But by god that post just jumped out at me screaming scummy all over.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 24 2012 01:21 GMT
#803
Also, I want to make this clear.

There are 3 votes on marv atm, and there are still a few players who need to pop in.

NO ONE HAMMER's MARV until we hear from EVERYONE on the subject
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
October 24 2012 01:21 GMT
#804
Vote Count!

Marvellosity (3) - Hapahauli, Drazak, iamperfection
Hapahauli (1) - Marvellosity
Drazak (1) - DarthPunk

Not Voting (3) - Keirathi, austinmcc, Z-Boson

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.



Day ends when a majority is reached.

When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10857 Posts
October 24 2012 01:23 GMT
#805
Hapa. Unvote plz.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
October 24 2012 01:24 GMT
#806
I'm not voting right now. I'm seriously leaving this until morning, ~13 hours for now. Then I'll look through it, discuss, get involved with the marv bit.

I would assume that the rest of the votes aren't going to jump onto marv with no warning, but yeah, given how quickly v7 picked up his last couple, it would be nice if nobody jumped the gun.
Fe fi fo fum.
drazak
Profile Joined November 2011
United States479 Posts
October 24 2012 01:25 GMT
#807
DP bro, sorry that I had a life and that it snuck up on me, wish I didn't have to be afk for as long as I did, but with my laptop giving me issues I have to be at my desktop to post, I read a little bit of the thread on my phone but I had to reread it to make sure I had it when I was on my pc. while you may classify voting for marv as "sheeping" look at his filter, he's got no good defense to hapa's accusation, he says that hapa is cherry picking cases, but if he is then there should be ample evidence to the contrary regarding his meta.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
October 24 2012 01:26 GMT
#808
On October 24 2012 10:25 drazak wrote:
DP bro, sorry that I had a life and that it snuck up on me, wish I didn't have to be afk for as long as I did, but with my laptop giving me issues I have to be at my desktop to post, I read a little bit of the thread on my phone but I had to reread it to make sure I had it when I was on my pc. while you may classify voting for marv as "sheeping" look at his filter, he's got no good defense to hapa's accusation, he says that hapa is cherry picking cases, but if he is then there should be ample evidence to the contrary regarding his meta.

Would you care to choose some posts you believe to be marv's defense, quote them, and explain why they are not good?

Would you care to pick out specific parts of hapa's case that you agree with?
Fe fi fo fum.
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10857 Posts
October 24 2012 01:27 GMT
#809
Look at that Vote count. Scum are highly unlikely to bus. Look at who is voting for marv off the bat. 2 of the scummiest players IMO. Unless the keir- marv thing was manufactured I don't see keir being buddies with him. nor austin. Maybe ZB. but honestly shit is looking far too easy.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 24 2012 01:27 GMT
#810
On October 24 2012 10:23 DarthPunk wrote:
Hapa. Unvote plz.


Why? If you disagree with my case, tell me, but I'm not lynching Drazak for that post. I understand the tell you're talking about (scum trying to predetermine a lynch knowing alignments), but I just don't see it there. It seems like very dumb logic - he works through both sides of things and seems to be part of the structure of his analysis overall.

If marv flips town, we'll have some questions to ask about Drazak, but for now, I'm very comfortable lynching by far my strongest scumread.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
October 24 2012 01:28 GMT
#811
There is more to Drazak than that post. I would still like to hear thoughts on the quotes that felt scummy to me.
Fe fi fo fum.
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10857 Posts
October 24 2012 01:29 GMT
#812
On October 24 2012 10:25 drazak wrote:
DP bro, sorry that I had a life and that it snuck up on me, wish I didn't have to be afk for as long as I did, but with my laptop giving me issues I have to be at my desktop to post, I read a little bit of the thread on my phone but I had to reread it to make sure I had it when I was on my pc. while you may classify voting for marv as "sheeping" look at his filter, he's got no good defense to hapa's accusation, he says that hapa is cherry picking cases, but if he is then there should be ample evidence to the contrary regarding his meta.


Funny. Because if you were so willing to base a vote entirely on meta. I am surprised you have not mentioned the case on ZB at all.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 24 2012 01:30 GMT
#813
On October 24 2012 10:28 austinmcc wrote:
There is more to Drazak than that post. I would still like to hear thoughts on the quotes that felt scummy to me.


Which post are you talking about? I'd look, but I've been filter diving through marv's meta for hours >>
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
drazak
Profile Joined November 2011
United States479 Posts
October 24 2012 01:31 GMT
#814
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661536 is stalling, why would town stall? Scum would calmly defend themselves.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661268 Where he basically confirms the meta read but then says that this game is special, really?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16661087 where he uses games that hapa picked as part of his meta to try to defend himself

I think one of the most telling things is the comparison to the clothes mini where he appears to be unconfident of his vote, and then here he's sure about v7, who flipped town.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 24 2012 01:31 GMT
#815
On October 24 2012 10:27 DarthPunk wrote:
Look at that Vote count. Scum are highly unlikely to bus. Look at who is voting for marv off the bat. 2 of the scummiest players IMO. Unless the keir- marv thing was manufactured I don't see keir being buddies with him. nor austin. Maybe ZB. but honestly shit is looking far too easy.


Since when did you have a scumread on iamperfection? Or are you talking about me and drazak?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
October 24 2012 01:32 GMT
#816
On October 24 2012 10:30 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 10:28 austinmcc wrote:
There is more to Drazak than that post. I would still like to hear thoughts on the quotes that felt scummy to me.


Which post are you talking about? I'd look, but I've been filter diving through marv's meta for hours >>

You or someone asked about that a moment ago and I quoted it and stuck it in a spoiler! And by you or someone, I mean...you. You asked.

On October 24 2012 09:44 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 09:39 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh, and can you refer me to what post in particular you're talking about austin (regarding Drazak)?

And the above post was directed at marv ofc.


Specifically the 2 quotes that I pull out, which I find similar to odd defenses/comments that other scum players have made in the past + Show Spoiler +
On October 24 2012 04:07 austinmcc wrote:
I don't support/like/whatever this "Drazak has been mislynched before for looking scummy, therefore we shouldn't lynch him for looking scummy" argument. We can't fully determine his alignment right now. Based on how this game has played out during a long D1 and now N1, we're not GOING to be able to fully determine his alignment, because he's not posting much at all.

He's going to come up every day. He's going to be a mislynch candidate, sure, but best to get him out of the way before LYLO, and he's also a scum candidate. You guys may not have as many town reads as I do, but we're in a very small game. If you've got 2-3 town reads and know you're town, you've seriously narrowed down the options for possible scum. Things are narrow enough in my mind that "doesn't seem townie" + "not many options" + the stuff below = probably scum Drazak.

Here's why I'm concerned about Drazak mainly. He was relatively active in the beginning. Since then, he's clammed up significantly. I was hoping he'd start posting more, especially if people weren't jumping all over him, because yeah, it's difficult to get a read on him right now. But the part of his filter that keeps sticking out to me are things like:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2012 04:50 drazak wrote:
Not to defend hapa too much, but I know when I've read things, I think different things whehter or not I'm hungry, or if other things are going on in my life, maybe he reconsidered after reading something again.
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2012 05:32 drazak wrote:
On October 23 2012 05:27 Hapahauli wrote:
On October 23 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote:
Posting from phone dont lynch z-bos wait untll I get home please.


So you don't find him scummy then? Do tell.


I don't think he doesn't find him scummy, he just doesn't want the hammer while he's afk, might have someone else he finds scummier.

those read very scummy to me because of statements in recent games. I can't NOT look at those and see:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote:
I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.

Show nested quote +
On September 28 2012 05:29 Sinensis wrote:
On September 28 2012 04:46 phagga wrote:
Sinensis, while you are here, I would like to know your stance on Ottoxlol.


I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for. I'm null on him. I think the worst thing he's done is instead of formulating a proper defense (against something that really didn't need defending against), he tried to shift the blame onto others...BUT he wasn't trying to shift the blame onto 1 or 2 other people, he was trying to shift the blame back onto everyone. That's why I think he just believes he's being treated unfairly and is just lashing out at everyone else. This doesn't strike me as scummy so much as just bad town play.

Aside from that all he's done is be critical of SnB's play. Which I understand because SnB has been posting weird stuff this game. First there was the random lynch suggestion. He posted this too:

On September 27 2012 05:22 strongandbig wrote:
what about vt's fakeclaiming boxer


lets all claim boxer


I've said a lot already about why VTs shouldn't be fake claiming. Was SnB fishing for people to agree with him or is he suggesting something that benefits mafia on purpose?

ANYWAY I just think Ottoxlol is understandably concerned with SnB's play, and I think in the future Ottoxlol should start making proper defenses instead of blaming everyone else.


To me, defending people out of nowhere for odd reasons - Node defending Shady for things he hadn't done, Sinensis saying things like "I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for" stick out. Townies read posts, townies make reads, townies justify their reads with posts. Scum knows alignments, scum sometimes justify reads out of nowhere with...non-post stuff? They're trying to give a read but it's clear that they're not getting it from the same place a town player would be.

Drazak's comments feel like that. Hapa made a comment about leaving to eat, and Drazak partially defends him by saying that he thinks differently whether he's hungry or full. It's like...a very odd reason to justify what someone was poking at hapa about. It's not intra-thread, it's this weird external defense. The bit on Z-BosoN is...not as good, that comment isn't as out of place, but again it's like...Drazak explaining something based on stuff that wasn't in thread.


Just those two posts are enough to make me scummy on Drazak, enough to lynch because there are so few other options. It's also just very simple. I've had better luck with simple reads (Quick readthrough of GSL Open 2 N1 before dying, quick readthrough of Liquid City D1 after being absent (although LC not as much because I went crazy the next day)) than I have with overly complex ones. So I'm going to go with my gut and say that the simple weird statements and outside-the-game comments make him scum.

Fe fi fo fum.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 24 2012 01:33 GMT
#817
Oh fail, gimme a sec
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10857 Posts
October 24 2012 01:33 GMT
#818
Hapa. Seriously ask yourself. Would Scum bus at this point? and if not who out of the 4 not voting for him is likely to be his buddy?

I had 2 candidates for marvs scum buddy. They both voted for him straight off the bat. I can't see any of the others being buddied with marv aside from ZB who you think is town.

"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
drazak
Profile Joined November 2011
United States479 Posts
October 24 2012 01:34 GMT
#819
So austin, you're saying I made posts like the posts I made when I was town? So you're saying I'm fitting my town meta?
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 24 2012 01:36 GMT
#820
On October 24 2012 10:33 DarthPunk wrote:
Hapa. Seriously ask yourself. Would Scum bus at this point? and if not who out of the 4 not voting for him is likely to be his buddy?

I had 2 candidates for marvs scum buddy. They both voted for him straight off the bat. I can't see any of the others being buddied with marv aside from ZB who you think is town.


We'll cross that road when we get there. I can see anyone being mafia #2 with marv with the exception of Kei.

And no I don't think bussing is unreasonable here. I think my case is strong, and I think it's worth it for scum to bus here. However, I don't want to go down that road of analysis until I see marv flip for myself.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
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