Liquid City Mafia
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
##Vote: Marvellosity | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 11:56 Z-BosoN wrote: That's him as townie, and that's him as scum. Unfortunately it's either vig or policy lynch for him. I think he fits his town meta a bit more then his scum meta, but I could be wrong here. Would be nice if someone who's played witih him, such as kreb (I think?) could attest to this. Yeah. From what I read before I replaced in and during the 30 odd pages I just went through this morning. I am leaning towards a townie Kush this game. I mean kush is always scummy as town but there is a marked difference between his Town meta and his scum meta. And he has played a lot closer to his town meta this game than he did in XXVIII. That being said. Maybe he finally heeded Hapa's advice and worked on his scum play. But right now I don't like a Kush lynch. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 12:04 kushm4sta wrote: This z-boso kid is making me angry. VIG or POLICY LYNCH me?? Wtf am i doing wrong? I have NOT been trolling at all. I have NOT been raging. I've been doing my best so go away and continue shitting up this thread with your useless thoughts that are always wrong. Nevermind. This is kush's scum meta. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 12:06 kushm4sta wrote: Triple post apologize for spam. Also if I get lynched can it please be darthpenguin (the replacement guy) who leads the bandwagon. I want poetic justice. LOL. DarthPenguin? you are butthurt from our previous game. But please keep it in the obs QT <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 12:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Scum. I think. Anyone else wanna check my math? Yeah. Obviously marv is scum and that is why he is trolling. 0_o Unless you are calling me scum? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 12:16 Z-BosoN wrote: Sup! It's like you are back from the dead. He's playing to his wincon =/ How's mkfuba looking compared to his XXIV? HI <3 No idea. He died really early in XXIV and was pretty much inactive. So yeah. I can't make a meta read on him. He is posting Vastly more than he did in that game though. I have found someone who is interesting though. Post incoming. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Super scummy. He came out of the gates really aggressively towards several people. He makes a lot of noise commenting on their anti-town play. On October 02 2012 04:24 Keirathi wrote: Then stop playing shitty and do you job as town and lynch scum, not somebody who you think is town but has bullied you in the past. Thats fucking worthless, ffs. On October 02 2012 04:24 Keirathi wrote: Then stop playing shitty and do you job as town and lynch scum, not somebody who you think is town but has bullied you in the past. Thats fucking worthless, ffs. On October 02 2012 04:24 Keirathi wrote: Then stop playing shitty and do you job as town and lynch scum, not somebody who you think is town but has bullied you in the past. Thats fucking worthless, ffs. I would quote more but they are in his filter and there is alot of this. He is not actually contributing. Just criticising the play of others. Not scum hunting just telling people that they are bad/anti-town. The only Semblance of scum hunting from keir is this OMGUS vote on KingJames on day one. On October 01 2012 10:25 Keirathi wrote: As far as KJ, I just want to say that I wasn't even getting defensive. I was legitimately trying to figure out his thinking, and explain myself. That he got defensive to my questions, and then decided on a wishy-washy stance rather than taking a firm opinion and trying to explain himself make me question his motives. Just throwing mud out for the sake of appearing like he was contributing? For now: ##Vote: kingjame01 And this follow up when questioned. On October 02 2012 04:28 Keirathi wrote: Anyways, I don't think the whole "spies" thing was a scum slip by KJ. I was curious why he said it, which was why I asked. I totally buy his explanation. That doesn't change the fact that I still don't like his wishy-washy attitude earlier in the game, nor how he picked Mementoss from all the other lurkers/non-contributors. He has a 3 page filter that is mostly telling people how bad they are and not scum hunting. He criticises the play of Kush at length even though he has readily admitted that is part of his meta, and has a town read on him. He spends comparatively little time on actual scum hunting or questioning the person he voted for. He leaves his vote on KJ despite huge voting activity at deadline and It becomes meaningless. In spite of saying this earlier On October 01 2012 12:27 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: For that matter, why do you need to leave your vote parked on someone anyways? Your vote is your means of pressuring someone and getting a response. If your vote is meaningless all game, no one is going to care about it and feel the need to justify themselves to you. You're basically giving up your only power as a townie for some contrived need of having your vote out. After the lack of scum hunting and his meaningless vote on KJ. He saunters back into the thread and drops this vote on Marv and continues his pattern on commenting almost solely on byplay and doing zero scum hunting. On October 03 2012 14:17 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: Formatting. And damnit, I'm slow. ##vote: marvellosity Couple of things stand out about this vote on marv. He actually bothers to explain his vote. Even though it is blatantly clear why people would vote for him. He feels the need to explain it anyway. He expresses displeasure in not being faster to vote for marv. You know who cares about in which order they vote for someone. Scum. That's who. I have played with Keir before when he was town. This is not how he started at all. Not even close. FoS: Keirathi | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 13:12 kushm4sta wrote: @darthpenguin You quoted the same thing 3 times in a row in the beginning. Oh. lol. I can quote some more or you could just, you know, read his entire filter. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 14:45 Keirathi wrote: Not several people. Just kush. Because I thought kush was town based on his demeanor, but his voting and play was distinctly anti-town. I spent a lot of time trying to make him see that. But I should have just shut up and let him play stupidly? Okay. You did it to shady and risen also. So no not just kush. But honestly. It doesn't really matter how many people you use to hide the fact you are not contributing. On October 04 2012 14:45 Keirathi wrote: Nothing I can really say about that. It's pretty true. After questioning KJ, I felt comfortable in my scum read of him. So I spent the rest of my time questioning other people and berating kush. Let's be honest here. You barely questioned him. You would look less scummy if you had actually bothered to contribute more than you did. I am not satisfied with that explanation. On October 04 2012 14:45 Keirathi wrote: What you probably didn't pick up on just by reading my filter (or maybe intentionally misrepresenting?), is the timing of my posts. Go back and look at my last post on day 1. It was 9 hours before the deadline (and 32 hours before my next post). That's because I took an unplanned trip out of town and didn't have internet. My vote might have been meaningless at the end of the day, but when I left it wasn't (KJ had the majority). There was literally nothing I could have done because I didn't have internet access to keep up with the game. You didn't say anything in the thread. I can't be expected to know or assume that you are out of town if you leave the thread. lol. Even if you were part of a lynch majority I would still argue your vote was meaningless because of the token case and scum hunting behind it. On October 04 2012 14:45 Keirathi wrote: ToutEstChaos justified his vote too. Why is the fact that I did it scummier than the fact that he did it? Also, the "Damnit, I'm slow" comment was because, when I first read the daypost, no one had commented on the reason Risen had died, nor voted marv yet. So I quoted Risen's death, then started trying to find the post where Risen had said to kill marv when he died. By the time I had finished, Tout had already beat me to the explanation. Basically you're saying that it would have been townier for me to first vote marv, 10 minutes after the day post, with 0 explanation. I don't buy that. It would be like the people who took flak for hopping on Matt without explanation in LVII after his Nosy Neighbor claim. That is a fair explanation. I always view people who feel they need to provide explanations for their vote in even the most obvious situations as scummier than those that drop a vote and leave. But I can understand your point and don't think this point was particularly strong or necessary to the case against you. It just struck me as odd for the afore mentioned reason. On October 04 2012 14:45 Keirathi wrote: [/quote]This is reasonable, but a question: have you read my scum game (GSL Open Mini Mafia 1) for reference? I mean, sure I'm aware that I played a reasonably "good" scum game in that, so if I wanted to play differently I could. But would I really go for the extreme opposite end of the spectrum? From "good" scum, to terrible and easily caught? Anyways, I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to lynch me tomorrow. I lost some of my interest after having to catch up with 24+ hours of two different games. Wow. This is a horrible argument. Yep my FoS stands. Matyring + WIFOM + using meta to clear yourself. Ugh. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 16:01 Kreb wrote: Only played with him as town. First day I think he was a bit more spazzy than usual, which I also pointed out. Since then, I'd say he fits his town meta pretty well. It could be a case of him understanding he needs to tone himself down a bit as scum though, and theres others things happening which also has made him look a bit scummy. But if I were to push him as scum, I probably wont use meta as a strong part of my argument. That said, Thrawn seemed to disagree with that in the small time he was in the thread. Well I partially used meta to catch him day one in my previous game. So I am keeping it in my mind for sure with Kush. The thing with kush is that he posts so frequently that he will slip. The other thing is that he slips as town. I think you need to look at the whole picture with kush. What happened to thrawn BTW? Oh and @ frenchCaos Why am I? and what is a Beggerman? lol. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 16:15 ToutEstChaos wrote: 1) wrote good case 2) promoted town discussion 3) interesting that you exempted the line in question in your quotation. Allow me to reproduce it in full for you: Huh, that's interesting. So your question: Was actually already answered by the CONTEXT of the line that you cherrypicked to quote (twice I might add). What's the deal, kush? If you're gonna FoS a guy, at least do your homework. If you slack off how do you expect to contribute to the town? I am inclined to agree with ToutEstChaos. Scum would never sheep other scum that hard. And Fuba probably was sheeping a very good player whom he had a town read on. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 16:06 kushm4sta wrote: i am like the townest person in this game ATM Oh look. Calling yourself town. Just like last game :/ | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 19:26 marvellosity wrote: hi guise! Hi Bill Murray! | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Just ignore him. and all his WIFOM. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 21:03 Keirathi wrote: @DP: the simplest answer is most often the right one. What is this supposed to Imply? I agree that the simplest answer is generally the right one but I fail to understand how that applies in this situation at all. And honestly I would expect more from a town Keirathi than a one liner response. Relying on one scum game of yours to somehow clear your very scummy behaviour is not an acceptable defense. Nor is it reasonable for me to believe you. Honestly this is not how you play to your town meta. So if you want us to look at your meta. How about we look at your town meta and see how this play doesn't match that at all. Seriously. You tell everyone else they are bad/anti town. When this is the worst/most anti town play I have seen from you. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 04 2012 12:34 DarthPunk wrote: Yeah. Obviously marv is scum and that is why he is trolling. 0_o Unless you are calling me scum? OK VE. You have been asked twice now and have ignored the question. What did you mean with this post. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 05 2012 11:09 kushm4sta wrote: What did VE mean that post: it's obvious and completely null to me. DP was talking about how he got to the part with all the marv trolling. VE says he thinks marv might be scum. It's a sarcastic joke. I know you wanted VE to answer but I want him to use his limited time to address things that really matter. Yeah. You know I can't tell sarcasm over text. I told you that last game. I just don't see why VE wouldn't take the time to make a one line clarification when multiple people ask for it. Oh well. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 05 2012 12:57 mkfuba07 wrote: The suspense is killing me. I hope we caught scum, guys! LOL. If the blatant trolling and WIFOM Bombs haven't told you. Marv is 100% scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 00:27 kushm4sta wrote: also ty kreb your suspicion saves me from nk WOW. ##FoS Kush | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 00:53 kushm4sta wrote: shh dont bring it up because then we will have to tell people about it Too late. Obviously. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:03 kushm4sta wrote: Im my experience DP is always like that. Also in pregames though. Some people who are autistic or something don't get sarcasm so maybe that's it. Scums loving this btw Yeah. I have trouble discerning sarcasm in text. You know this as we have had this same conversation when you brought it up constantly last game as scum. Seriously. you are slipping further and further into your scum meta. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Also I am not autistic. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:17 kushm4sta wrote: I ask him because I know he's being serious and I want to understand how a normal person can be so dumb Who are your top scum reads atm toutes How is it dumb to NOT see sarcasm that is text based. Many of the tells of sarcasm are other things. Such as body language, tone of voice etc. It seems to me that the only way to Interpret what you call sarcastic jokes. Is to assume that people aren;t capable of being stupid. and anything that they say or do is that is obviously stupid is a joke. I don;t like to make that assumption, In my experience people are more than capable of regular stupidity. Not making that assumption helped me catch you last game. And It seems that you are bitter about that. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:08 ToutEstChaos wrote: Actually, why are you asking him if you already know the answer AND think that doing so is something that scum would love? Why are you even thinking about scum loving or not loving things, or talking about how FoSes will excuse you from getting shot? Getting shot during an early night (sans roleclaim) is probably the highest honor you can claim as a townie. IGMEOY, kushm4sta. The whole Night Kill thing is part of his scum meta and he knows it. Furthermore. He he knows I know it. I caught him caught day one last game partially for an identical post. To be honest I feel that he is engaging me in a WIFOM BOMB really hardcore. On October 06 2012 00:27 kushm4sta wrote: also ty kreb your suspicion saves me from nk After kreb calls him not townie. He does something Which he KNOWS I know to be a particular tell for him from our previous game. On October 06 2012 00:53 kushm4sta wrote: shh dont bring it up because then we will have to tell people about it I call him out on it for this reason. Then WIFOM's at me. Stating that he wants me to lead a bandwagon for this scum tell of his. Even though He KNOWS I know it is a tell. On October 06 2012 00:47 kushm4sta wrote: please lead the bandwagon dp please I mean this is mind fucking me like crazy right now. But why would town Kreb be dropping WIFOM bombs on me? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:38 kushm4sta wrote: I think you mean why woudl town KUSH be dropping WIFOM bombs on you. Partly because I part of me wants you to lynch me and be wrong. Yes I will stop. And another. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Yep. You clearly don't give a fuck about town. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:41 kushm4sta wrote: It's not an assumption I just put it forth as a possibility. And yes I agree that this is derailing the thread.. unless you think im scum in which case its vital Now you sound like marv did for the past day cycle. Oh Joy. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
His last post was this. On October 05 2012 00:13 Keirathi wrote: The point in making them is for you to do a little research yourself. Seriously. Go look through my scum game. If you still think my mentality is the same, then I deserve the vote, and I'll do whatever I can before I die to clear up my thoughts. But I don't see him doing whatever he can right now. And I don't feel his previous scum game somehow clears his play this game. Keirathi 100% does not play like this as town. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 01 2012 13:36 Keirathi wrote: If you're not even going to try to play the game, why the fuck did you sign up? He looks really scummy to me right now. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 02:07 kushm4sta wrote: k my top scum reads now are coag keitheri maybe ve. coag just jumped on my bandwagon so hard... and his meta is not to be a sheeper. I'm waiting on this epic ve post. You said you had no scum read like 20 minutes ago. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 02:18 kushm4sta wrote: well I have top people I would vote for but I'm not that sure about any. See I think its very possible keitathi just doesn't give a shit about me. Not giving a shit doesn't mean he can't yell at me for sucking. The badness of my play is the only thing that motivates him to make posts. I would.not be suprised if he flipped scum. VE has been so afk that at this point it goes beyond scumtell and into irl issues. Coag its also hard to know because his actual content is so.little. But you don't find Shiao Pi scummy? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 10:15 iamperfection wrote: I believe kush to be town his high activity and hes been somewhat pushing discussion. Despite his wifom mind bombs my gut tells me town. Coag is a prime concern of me. I dont like that acted like a cry baby when he was listed on someones scum list. Stuck out to me as weird. Especially in a large game like this why would a town player give a fuck that he was on someones list. It literally boggles the mind that you have a town read on kush despite his WIFOM bombs. and giving a 'gut read' is a weak as shit reason for this. Care to explain why kush would WIFOM bomb me/ derail the thread/ backdown so hard when called out/ have such a small percentage of his filter consist of scum hunting, as town? Care to give a reason for your read other than a 'gut read'? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 10:30 Hapahauli wrote: Unfortunately it has to end soon, since I'm off to the bar in about 15 minutes =/ @ Darth Regarding kush: read 'dis pl0x He could be scum, but I think his meta (in particular his anger) suggests otherwise. You were in Newbie XXVIII - doesn't his play look different? I know his meta Hapa. I have already commented on it at length this game. Please read the thread before you tell me to do something I have already done. I thought he was town at first. But parts of his scum meta are sliding into his play as the game progresses. I am very aware of his meta. But it is possible that he has altered the more obvious parts of it since I caught him day one last game. The passage of play last night has changed my mind. The WIFOM bombs and the Subsequent trolling and back down has me very concerned. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 10:32 iamperfection wrote: you have to throw the anger out now he is well aware of it now. Yep. He is very well aware of his meta. And employed it in a WIFOM bomb. Which is why all these people who have town reads on Kush for no reason whatsoever (or because marv and now hapa told them so) need to wake up. Look at his play critically and have an actual reason for your read. Rather than herp derp 'gut read'... 'meta' herp derp. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 12:09 iamperfection wrote: why because the post says absolutely nothing? yes i don't like it either. LoL. People saying nothing/ sheeping cases. Welcome to half the players in this game. Care to provide a reason for your town read on Kush? or are you just going to ignore me? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 12:23 iamperfection wrote: yes i will. i have very good reason if you were paying attention i said my view hinges on the fact of my observation (redacted because of ongoing game). I dont know how much clearer i can be because of that so if you have patience i will be clear. Or you can continue to waste time and not hunt scum choice is your. also i dont really care what you think. i don't even care if i contradict myself i will say what i want if i think someone might be scum. Wow, Way to promote an anti town atmosphere. I completely disagree with the fact that you do not have to give more reasoning than a 'gut read' which by definition is unclear. I get it. You do not give a fuck about anyone and will do what you want. Fine. But don;t expect people to actually listen to you if you won't do us the courtesy of being clear and transparent about stuff like Why you give one of the scummiest players in the game a town read. You know what? FoS: Iamperfection Clearly anti town attitude. Difficult and refusal to be transparent. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 12:55 austinmcc wrote: Any strong reads I have are still the same except: Upon rereading, Z-BosoN asked a question about Coag, which Node answered. Z-BosoN referenced Node hours after that, but no longer convinced they HAVE to be same alignment, because Z-BosoN could remember node's post because it was a direct answer to Z-BosoN's question. BC this game feels entirely different from BC in LVII. That doesn't mean he's scum BC, I haven't nailed done exactly what I think he is, but marv may have been honest when naming BC most likely to be 3P. Also, remember the claimed protect. Watch medic numbers and scum kill numbers to see whether it was likely he actually got protected or was just covering being bulletproof/having an extra night life. kush has actively shat up the thread for a lot of this game. The meta argument for him being town was already a little weak because it had been pointed out exactly what made him look townie/scummy. The argument is FURTHER weakened by the fact that marv was scum, and could have partially coached kush as to "here's how you play disruptive and still look like your town meta." Iamperfection. Read this please. Digest it. and then realise that your unexplained town read on Kush is bullshit. as is getting all riled up over being asked to explain it. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
FoS: Hapa | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 13:00 iamperfection wrote: i think ive told you twice now i cant talk about because of an ongoing game. o nope this is the third time. also you shouldn't worry about kush even if I'm wrong he will slip. Don't understand why your getting so worked up about this. Because I feel you are being irrational and it annoys me. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 13:19 BroodKingEXE wrote: ##Vote: hapa You guys are doing a good job of teaching me about breadcrumbing. LVII was terrible for me. Yeah. Breadcrumbs are great. Good work by risen and Fuba. I think Fuba's was less obvious though. lol | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 14:05 BroodKingEXE wrote: What do you think of Hapa's response DP? Personally I find his constant soft defense of Kush pretty damning considering Kush's play this game. Yep. Marv and Hapa both defending kush? seems like a pretty large coincidence. Iamperfection and Kush both looking pretty bad right now. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 18:50 Kreb wrote: Well this is getting a bit silly. I feel I havent really done much useful stuff last 3days due to the obvious marv lynch, and now we have to wait another almost 5days before we get to (what could be!!!!) the next real lynch. I guess we're a bit lucky we have caught two seemingly strong scum players (I had a pretty towny read on Hapa although I was suspicious of marv). The lives of Risen and mkfuba shall not be forgotten! The fact that austin got shot also makes it look like he was telling the truth last night and was targetted. Still no claims for this night yet though.... Yeah. It is great that we caught marv and hapa (marv especially) and all that but lt's pretty boring when the lynch is a forgone conclusion for almost 6 days in a row. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 19:19 Kreb wrote: Oh, and we've now had both scum kinda putting Kushs meta on the towny side lol. Dont know if thats indicative of a scum-Kush or the scum team just wanting to make Kush look scummy. Or maybe they're just trying to keep him alive as town so town mislynches other "more useful" players. Anyway, not gonna regard that as an indication of Kushs aligment either way as of yet. Look at in conjunction with all the other scummy shit and it looks really bad. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:04 Hapahauli wrote: Hi DP. I would love to talk about my case on Thrawn. HEHE. Go away. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:09 kushm4sta wrote: dp im not scum. Sorry for mindfucking you I know it wasn't helpful to town but I did it anyway. Or you and Iamperfection are both scum. But seriously. You can't just say sorry and pretend you didn't troll/shit up the thread and lay a WIFOM wind fuck on to me. I am not convinced by either of you. Furthermore. Toutestchaos was Night Killed. He was a very good player from what I can tell and his top scum read was you. and then he died. Both Shiao Pi and yourself look pretty bad right now. As does the 'perfect one' but mainly by association so I would like to see you flip first. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:13 Z-BosoN wrote: Hey guys.. been busy IRL, but will try to keep up the forum over the last two days. On another note, what a bad role, removes some of the elements that actually make mafia fun. Here we go again... ##Vote Hapahauli FOS: Z - Boson Reason: Don't prioritise your other game over this one. I am having a sense of Deja vu. P.S. <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:17 Hapahauli wrote: I will not go away until you acknowledge our undying love. Where the hours we spent in the mafia QT caressing sweet nothings? The walks along the moonlit shores - holding hands as we stared into each other's eyes lost in thought and love... I THOUGHT WE HAD SOMETHING SPECIAL!!! Or you can acknowledge my case on Thrawn. Whichever works. Fine. But how about we keep it in the QT and not shit up the thread with our sordid affair. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:22 Kreb wrote: I never really liked touteschaos's (spelling?) case on Shiao. I didnt see the scummy part in it and I think he made too big of a deal of an, at best, very minor tell. So I dont really see any reason to consider Shiao as a target as of now. I know it is WIFOM. But he died. after having two clear suspects. Isn't it worth considering that he died for a reason? Especially considering Austin died the same night after calling out hapa that same night? it is WIFOM. So take it with several grains of salt. But to me it is worth looking into. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:24 kushm4sta wrote: @darth why exactly do you find my "wifom mind bombs" as you call them scummy? Anti town yeah sure (more specifically anti you). that they were. But I dont see what I would gain from it as scum? Because the way you employed it sought to make all your scum meta tells useless to me as they were dripping with WIFOM. Making you harder to read by far. Survival instincts > Scummy. Using WIFOM to aid Survival > Scummier | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:25 kushm4sta wrote: Also @darth what do you think of all the other people prom brought up? You suspect me and iamp and shiao, but what about his scum reads? Dont they seem even scummier to you? I like his pressure on Kier. It matches my own concerns with him. Coag looks bad also. But lets be honest here. Most of the players in this game are scummy as shit. And all the vets are disappointing. Inactive/ don't really give a fuck. BC/Matt/VE all not involved at all. And they can't all be scum right? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:31 kushm4sta wrote: hapa who is your top scumread? someone who is still in the game now LoL. Why would you even bother asking Hapa anything? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:36 Kreb wrote: Well, I did look into it. Read it and reread it, it was mostly a case built on "Shiao is a good player, this case was below his standard, it looks scummy". First I dont know enough of Shiao to really agree on the case itself. But even if the case was 100% true, the tell itself isnt strong at all. If I'd be interested enough I could probably find similarly strong cases on 5 or 10 other people in here who has made weaker than usual cases/strong than usual cases/less than usual cases/more than usual cases/responded different to cases/etc. If I'd be suspicious of Shiao because of that I'd be suspicious of 15ppl here, which kinda defeats the purpose of the suspicion. Stuff like that does in no way build a solid case in itself unless its much stronger than this. It is worth taking into account if a person does other scummy things, but I've seen nothing scummy (well, not more than anyone else anyway) of Shiao apart from that. Granted I havent looked too much into it due how uninteresting the game is with the obvious lynches, but thats my current feeling anyway. Yeah, the bolded is particularly true. I get where you are coming from. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 09:39 kushm4sta wrote: Beacuse if I was in hapa's shoes I would have a hard time answering that question, deciding if i should give a scum or town. I'm glad you actually clarified your case on me because I want everyone to see how dumb it is. It in itself is incredibly WIFOM. I could see the motivations for town or scum behind it. You could see town motivation for WIFOM bombing me? For shitting up/ derailing the thread? and causing yourself to become far more difficult to read? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Like it seriously boggles the mind that you keep defending keir. EVEN KEIR THINKS SO. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Shiao Pi Mattchew BloodyC0bbler These are experienced players that have had almost zero thread presence since I replaced in to the game. I mean I think Kush is scummy as shit. But at least he is making a contribution and posting. Even if his posts are crap. They exist and he has thread presence. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
How about you do some scum hunting? Be the annoying townie that caught both scum at LYLO and would not be swayed by me flaming you for two days straight. I think you are scum. Your meta is different. Your cases lacked scum hunting and did not feel genuine. The case on you by toutestchaos was really strong. You clearly don't give a shit about town. If this is your town play. I really wish you played like this in LVII, as it would have made our win far, far easier. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 17:29 ShiaoPi wrote: DP, you know my meta, I am a horribly bad townie in the first couple of cycles, always lurking around and stuff, now I tried to make an effort earlier with the fuba-case (granted not very good) and I get called out for that shizzle. Seeing all of you call for my death because of "meta" is so fucking ridiculous. If you want to meta-analyse me then do it properly by only comparing the bigger games (LVI, LVII) and the first cycles in there, see any difference? I am playing like I always do in large games..... LVII was a whole different matter DP, you know that just as well as I do, the situations are not even remotely comparable. The case of our french dude was weak, I already answered it. I do give a shit about town, I just get lazy since we got 2 cycles of 100%-red lynches now already. The difference is that you made a weak case. And in your town meta you do not make weak cases. YOu make no cases and then you catch 2 scum at LYLO. That is just my experience though. However. Touestchaos' case was good and he clearly knows your meta better than I do. He was also clearly a better player than me. He also DIED after calling both yourself and kush out. I can Understand | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I can understand about being bored as shit with the Paramedic thing. But if you don;t get your shit together along with keir and others. I will come for you. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 17:37 ShiaoPi wrote: look at LVI, made weak cases on bke and hyaach as well... Do meta properly if you do so, seriously. Your thoughts about toutestchaos dying after fingering me and kush is wifom and you know it. Yes it is WIFOM but I feel it is worth considering. I will look over your filter from LVI but it is going to take me a while. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 19:30 Promethelax wrote: Working on that vote count I remembered that Talis was playing. Any of you remember I can't believe its not themed? Talis played such a lurky disinterested scum game that I suggested a (pretty dumb) change in set up. His response was: Vets this game: I hate you all. I replaced talis. He is no longer playing. So I don't know what the point of this post is. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Either he is improving in his play. or he is being coached in the QT. I find both plausible at this point and certainly don;t want to lynch him for sound analysis. That being said. I do want to lynch him for All the reasons I have already brought up. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 07 2012 21:50 kushm4sta wrote: @dp all your reasons are 1 me fucking with you and 2 me fucking with you And very little scum hunting in that very large filter of yours. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I don't see any reason not to believe BC's Vet claim. If he is a KP 3rd party it will son become obvious and then we lynch him. If he has no KP why do we care? It will be obvious later if he is lying. I think the claim was fairly pointless and looks scummy as fuck. I mean come on. Oh I have a watcher claim. I caught scum but only tell you after that scum already flips. and nothing else besides that. It's a really easy claim to fake as scum. and there is not a rock solid breadcrumb to back it up. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I also agree that it is strange for hapa to have pushed risk so hard if he was town. I know this is somewhat WIFOM. But I don't see the point of Immediately pushing your scum buddy after you lose marv. I feel Like VE fits into that whole group of scummy/lurking vets. BC Matt Sloosh VE etc. They can't all be scum. But out of that group I think Matt and Sloosh look the worst. Also Shiao Pi continues to lurk so I don;t know wtf is up with him. Yeah his meta has him sort of inactive. But not as badly as this game. It could be a by product of the boring past cycles. But I would be watching him. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 13:19 Keirathi wrote: Another thing I want to note about Third Party in this game. There are 2 roles in the OP that could thematically fit as "Third Party". Hitman could be SK-esque (or more likely a mafia role), and Paranoid Arsonist. I don't exactly know what a "paranoid" Arsonist does, but typically arsonists place gas on one target per night, and then on any night after they've put gas on people, they can choose to light them all. And that would account for why we've had a relatively low amount of KP every night. MAYBE Paranoid means that he is bulletproof. It would make some amount of sense thematically. But arsonist is already a pretty powerful role (albeit extremely risky with deciding how long to prolong using your kills), and I've never seen a bulletproof variation of one. Only having to worry about being lynched would probably be OP as hell. I think we should assume balance in this setup very cautiously. Having multiple paramedics is pretty imbalanced In my opinion. So I think it is plausible to have a bulletproof Arsonist. Hapa was an enforcer and I see no reason to not believe MMToss' claim. So scum did try to kill BC night one. And it failed. From what I see it is equally plausible for him to be a Vet as it is for him to be 3rd party. and thus I see no need to lynch him right now. Although based on his play and the differences between LVII and this game I would lean 3rd party. But no way near certain enough to lynch him. I would rather lynch Kushm4sta right now. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 13:59 Keirathi wrote: Well, if he is Bulletproof Arsonist, it is 100% in our best interest to kill him right now. Because that would mean that tomorrow, up to 3 extra people would blow up with the day post (assuming everyone he has "primed" hasn't already been NK'd by mafia or lynched). Unless you think he is likely to hit a scum in those 3 people. Do you think it is worth lynching someone who has no thread presence and is say 55% likely to flip arsonist? That is what it comes down to in my mind. I think it is definitely an option. But I would also like to have the chance to actually pressure people this cycle with the threat of a lynch. I have made several cases but everything feels so impotent with no chance of them getting voted. I do think that having an arsonist hit several townies along with a couple of night kills could be disastrous and blow our lead. It is a conundrum. And one I am having trouble solving. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 14:50 Keirathi wrote: @VE: Why was marv so willing to bus Node on day1, but spent time hard defending kush? I certainly don't think its impossible, but that's a pretty extreme dichotomy. WIFOM. Man. WIFOM. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 15:32 Keirathi wrote: Yea, its WIFOM. But I've been thinking about kush a lot, and VE jumping in and voting for him made me start thinking about it. Here's my current train of thought (and yes, before you say it, its still WIFOM, but I believe it actually makes some sense). Kush comes under pretty heavy pressure day 1, and marv immediately jumps in to defend him pretty damn hard. Also, kush is the kind of player that's always an easy lynch, so as scum he would at some point be a liability to a scum marv that plans to survive until the end game (and yes, that is always marv's goal. He prides himself of being "unlynchable"). So, lets say it gets to that point and Kush flips scum. Now, because of marv's hard defense, marv looks pretty damn bad. Say what you want about being WIFOM, but scum marv almost never does things that make him look bad. Go read basically any scum game that he has ever played. He busses players that will be a liability to him surviving, and otherwise distances himself from his teammates. So, the only way for marv not to look bad for hard-defending scum Kush is for him to plan for Kush to never get flipped. And I'm just not sure even marv is capable of that. Which leads me to the conclusion that either 1) kush is town, or 2) marv planned to have a "change of heart" and bus kush at some point. Based on marv's past games as scum, I think (1) is more likely than (2). Man Keir. You know this is WIFOM and near useless. Even if Kush flipped this exact argument could keep marv out of hot water. The way I see it. Is that both node and Kush were targets early and any competent player at that point does not want to lose 2 scum that early . Anyway. I am not convinced by your WIFOM arguments for obvious reasons. I would ask why would town Kush set WIFOM bombs at me with the express aim of disabling my ability to read him.? Why would he troll and crap up the thread.? Why would he tunnel Viscera Eyes, and none of the players similar to him, as his entire scumhunting contribution this game? Those are all questions that need to be answered, and I think both you and I know that WIFOMing about what marv would/wouldn't do to make a read on someone is just plain silly. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:20 kushm4sta wrote: DP and VE have me voted.. seriously. I realized I'm biased but from my perspective I seem pretty damn green. Marv defending me means nothing. If that is your primary reasons for voting me then that is weak and you know it. DP your primary reason for voting me is that I fucked with you? You don't see how that is something a town or scum kush could have done? If anything it's a null tell. Look at my play, if you can bear to drudge through my filter. @VE your activity has been really bad and if you are town I doubt you put much thought into this vote. Why would you vote for an outlier candidate instead of a popular one? You haven't done of the legwork to make a case against me and convince others. You Employed WIFOM against me in order to mask your scum slips and meta. By intentionally making scum slips and employing your scum meta. It is the scummiest thing that has happened in this thread. And bvy god you should have been lynched for it days ago. It even caused ToutEstChaos to change his mind and make you his number one scum read. A confirmed town thinks you were the most likely scum. You shat all over the thread. You have barely scum hunted despite a lengthy filter. You have proven that you are aware of your meta so that is now useless. You employed Wifom to mask your scumslips and scum meta. Marv defended you before he was caught. Hapa defended you before he was caught. As soon as you became toutEstchaos' number one scum read he died. The only argument in your favor comes from a suspicious player in his own right. And is comprised of pure WIFOM and speculation. I have not voted for you so now you are lying or not reading. And the case against you is far more than you 'fucking with me' which in itself is far to simplistic an explanation. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:24 kushm4sta wrote: My wifom bombs didn't permanently disable a read of me. Look at my fucking filter, instead of constantly saying that. Why would I do it as town?? BECAUSE I WAS BUTTHURT how can you not understand this? No I'm not always 100% super serious scumhunt, you should know this. Yeah Keirathi's defense is pretty wifom. But the idea that Marv defended me so that makes me scum, that is also WIFOM. Your case on me is total wifom. My case on you has some WIFOM but is far from pure WIFOM. You are aware of your meta so it is useless in making a read on you. And it is funny that your only defense is that you are not playing to your scum meta. Or is there something else that you are trying to achieve by directing me to your filter as your defense. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:37 kushm4sta wrote: My defense has nothing to do with meta. I'm saying YOUR defense has everything to do with meta so you should read my filter because I think it paints me really green without any consideration of meta. Everyone is aware of their own meta. Not all reads are based on meta LOL Except you have obviously decided to do something about it this game. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:56 kushm4sta wrote: So anything I do, play like shit or try to play good, makes you more suspicious of me. Here's some true omgus for you: + Show Spoiler + I used to think you were good when you caught me d1. Now I realize that you just got lucky, and actually you are bad. I suspected your extreme badness when all your reads were dead wrong after you lynched me in the newbie game. However now your badness is confirmed. vote darthpenguin confirmed baddie Or I am good. And you are scum. <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 09 2012 18:18 risk.nuke wrote: Okey, Time to get to work with this thread. Well? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
##Vote: Kushm4sta | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 08:20 kushm4sta wrote: I bet it was fucking dp's retarded suspicion that got me framed LOL> Retarded suspicion? and you are scum. GG again kush. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 08:35 kushm4sta wrote: gg dp. If I flip town will you admit that you are bad? because that would almost make it worth it. LOL. So bad I caught you twice in a row. You are not flipping town. Obviously. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 08:39 kushm4sta wrote: dp this is important: if I flip town are you bad? You aren't flipping town kush. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 08:42 kushm4sta wrote: obviously I'm not flipping town apparently so you don't have to worry about entering this agreement with me dp. if I flip town you are bad and I'm better than you ok? I know what you are trying to do. I did it in LVII at MYLO/LYLO. It's not going to work so die quietly plz. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 08:44 Coagulation wrote: im cool with that. If kush flips town darth is a moron If kush flips scum kush is a moron good? Addendum: Regardless Coag is a moron. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 08:45 kushm4sta wrote: cool your so smart and experienced and awesome. why not agree to my terms though? is it because you know I'm town? if you are certain I'm scum you should have no provlem agreeing to my terms. If you will shut up I will agree. But it is not going to matter because you aren't flipping town. All you are trying to do is sow the seeds of doubt in peoples mind. I did the same thing when I asked ShiaoPi for pics of his vomit when I flipped town in LVII. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 10:58 kushm4sta wrote: theres still time to change the bandwagon to sloosh.. anyone?? no one thinks i was framed or VE was lying? Why are you trying to change the bandwagon onto sloosh? You listed Z - Boson as your number one scum read. Surely you should be pushing him to get lynched. Or do you just not care as long as it isn't you? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 13:22 iamperfection wrote: kush what role are you. this is not a trick question just answer it. He already claimed VT. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 13:26 Z-BosoN wrote: Now this is also quite interesting. Sloosh, see what I mean? first off, kush is not playing as he was in his last scum game. He's a lot less WIFOMY and helpful in his posts. I don't know if he learned how to play properly when being attacked or not, but I see the possibility of him coming up as town. Also, VE took in that idea way too fast. Also, his tone in his last post is much different than in his last posts. This seems calm and peaceful while everything else in his filter is snark and arrogant: Personally I find it VERY unlikely that someone would frame kush over other people in this game. And yet, I think we have a fair possibility of kush coming up as town. This line of thinking here will have to wait until kush dies, of course, but I have a weird feeling kush might pop up as town. Both kush's meta and VE's "serene" attitude towards the possibility of him being framed are fair indicators of this. I could be wrong, of course. Let's wait some 25 hours. Not Wifomy? Have you read the same game that I have? Let me get something for you. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:35 DarthPunk wrote: The whole Night Kill thing is part of his scum meta and he knows it. Furthermore. He he knows I know it. I caught him caught day one last game partially for an identical post. To be honest I feel that he is engaging me in a WIFOM BOMB really hardcore. After kreb calls him not townie. He does something Which he KNOWS I know to be a particular tell for him from our previous game. I call him out on it for this reason. Then WIFOM's at me. Stating that he wants me to lead a bandwagon for this scum tell of his. Even though He KNOWS I know it is a tell. I mean this is mind fucking me like crazy right now. But why would town Kreb be dropping WIFOM bombs on me? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
He WIFOM'd me and shat up the thread. Then comes back with a red check via a cop claim that no sane scum would make. And people still think he could be town? Yes he could have been framed. But there is no way to even know if that role is in the game. Add the check to all the other stuff. I find it highly unlikely that he will flip town. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 13:30 kushm4sta wrote: I get the sense that scum z-boson knows that town isn't realizing something so he hints at it to get town points. That happened back when he doubted the existence of 3 medics (explained by bc third party or vt) It just happened again here. z-boson: So he brings up 2 problems with VE's claim. 1 why the fuck would VE investigate me when there were way better people to investigate? 2 why would the framer frame me instead of any of the more suspicious townies? I think there is some weird role thing going on that we are missing. And why is the only other possibility scum VE bussing his scum friend? Why can't scum VE be lying about everything to kill a townie? If there is another private investigator I THINK you claim, just because I doubt there would be 2. Scum VE is not lying to lynch you because we make the assumption that he isn't terrible at this game and that trading one for one. Especially for you, is bad play. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 13:33 kushm4sta wrote: @ DP WHen the FUCK did i claim VT?? i never claimed vt On October 10 2012 07:51 kushm4sta wrote: the fuck? I just logged on to see this garbage from VE. I'm vanilla town not mafia coroner. The thing is it doesn't make sense that a mafia would give up their life just to lynch me. This is why I think it's possible someone framed me maybe. You are lying or bad. Burn him with fire. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 13:38 kushm4sta wrote: oh vt is vanilla town?? lol i thought it stood for vetern So you claimed Veteran? And then you claimed Vanilla Town? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 13:42 VisceraEyes wrote: He claimed vanilla town, and then later claimed "concerned citizen" after I, like a dumbass, revealed the name of Coag's role. On October 10 2012 13:44 kushm4sta wrote: sorry but I thought of myself as vanilla town, not a "concerned citizen" and I had to look at my role pm to remember exactly what my official name was. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Coroner from mafia scum. Looks irrelevant to me. All we know is that you are scum. So unless you would like to tell us what your role does. this setup speculation is pointless. Anyway. I am off to the gym and soccer (football) training. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 14:03 Z-BosoN wrote: Kush, you are acting a lot more townie this game when confronted to a lynch. I find it weird how DP is making no mention of this, since he's the "kush expert" here I have mentioned it. I have also mentioned how he is aware of his meta and has employed it in WIFOM bombing me. So he could easily have changed it. And lets be honest. Getting caught so fast last game would have been an obvious catalyst for working on an incredibly transparent meta. This is not the first time he has been confronted with pressure and I would have originally thought this was a town tell for kush. I even had a town read on him when I replaced in. But his WIFOM against me showed a willingness to both abuse and alter his meta. To the point where I don;t feel it is enough to clear him Especially with the multiple scummy things he has done. Also. If you feel that kush is town. Then you should unvote him. Voting for someone and then protesting that vote is scummy as fuck. In fact. The biggest thing that makes me wary of lynching Kush is that you seem to be trying to milk town cred if Kush flips green. In fact. That is very very scummy. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 14:17 Z-BosoN wrote: First off, I'm getting the feeling that he could be town. Obviously not enough to shit on VE's claim and unvote him. Also, you are tunneling him hard, but then you make no concession that he is playing differently once he got confronted. Also, you are actually taking into consideration the possibility of me milking cred from him --> so you acknowledge the possibility of him being town? Yes or no? Of course it is possible that he has been framed. I don't find it likely. But it is possible. Kush is someone I already wanted to lynch who then gets a cop check come back red and then you say it is strange I don't think he is town. That somehow failing to see how townie that Kush is and pressuring him is 'weird' . That is just suspicious as fuck. And is the thing which brings the most doubt into my mind about kush. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 14:42 Z-BosoN wrote: For contrasting purposes. First view on kush: What the fuck is this post right here? I don't want to lynch him for these reasons. I want to lynch him for those reasons. Why the hell is he even bringing that up? This flimsiness is characteristic of scum. Especially DarthPunk. In XXVIII when he got tunnel vision on kush, he didn't even begin to make a concession of any type. So right now, he's made clear he wants to lynch kush, despite him showing improved play (for some reason, he feels it's necessary to mention this). I was responding to the post by promethelax directly above mine. That is why I made this statement. The difference between this game and the last game are that Last game Kush made a large scumslip. This game he has not. On October 10 2012 14:42 Z-BosoN wrote: Afterwards: Then ends with this post: Also: Now what's interesting about this is that he finds me scummy for including the possibility that kush may flip town. If he thinks kush will flip scum, for sure, as he says, why is he targeting me for considering this possibility?. One may think that he thinks I'm trying to defend my scumbuddy. But that's not what he includes here: So, Darthpunk, are you or are you not sure that he is scum? You attack me for considering that he might be townie, yet you make that same consideration yourself? Very weird. Very weird indeed. I was sure when VE claimed a red check. I was less sure when I acknowledged the possibility of a framer. Unlike scum I odn;t know 100% what kush's alignment is so there is always some element of doubt. I don't see why this makes me scum. On October 10 2012 14:42 Z-BosoN wrote: Also, his only scumhunting from the last three pages is this list: And a couple of other aggressive cases against ShiaoPi. He also reiterates the meta arguments brought up by our smurfy friend ToutEstChaos. Another useless post: So DP has spent much of the last three pages in his filtering tunneling kush, and made some posts that seem more like he's giving off the impression he wants to scumhunt without generally doing so. He's also criticizing me for something he himself noted earlier on, but quickly changed his mind on the subject. It seems to me like he's seizing the opportunity to use kush as an excuse to not bother reading the thread. His "suspicion" on me seems fake as all hell, and I think he's scum. LOL. In case you missed it the last two cycles had mod confirmed scum. I have done far more scum hunting than most of the people in this game, but I too am susceptible to the boredom from having confirmed lynches. I am not tunnelling Kush. This is a misconception that people used against me falsely last game also. I think he is scum so then I focus on getting him lynched. I have made cases and observations on others despite the impotence involved with the last two lynches. I fail to see anything that makes me scummy to be honest. Your case feels weak and like an OMGUS more than anything. On October 10 2012 14:42 Z-BosoN wrote: [/quote]#Fos DarthPunk OK. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 16:49 Z-BosoN wrote: I ensure it? Why the hell did I ensure it? You are using the time stamp of the taly if you think I actually knew what the vote count was. My thinking was merely this: I don't want either of these to die. Thus, I will not vote for either of these. PERIOD. I didn't have a clue what the vote count was, what my actions would result in. Frankly, with 50 min prior to the lynch, with 3 people left to vote, with ppl unvoting and voting left and right, I didn't even bother. Is this so hard to grasp? The thing is this kind of thinking seems one dimensional. And is frankly beneath the play I know you to be capable of. You come off as a realist. Rather than an Idealist. A realist would say. I know one of the two major wagons is going to get lynched therefore I decide which I feel is towniest and vote for their opponent. An idealist would say. Who cares what the actual circumstances are. I will vote for neither because I fell neither should be lynched. And then happily throw away their vote achieving nothing at all. I have played several games with you. And I know for a fact that you consider the circumstances of a situation when playing. This wasted vote makes far more sense for you as a calculated play. Than some expression of whimsical idealism via a trashed vote. I think you are smarter than that. FoS: Z - Boson | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 19:53 risk.nuke wrote: we can lynch you for playing in alignment with your scum meta. lol. I miss all of Matt's posts. It would be crap if he was scum and won via afk. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 21:54 Mattchew wrote: hey im not afk right this second ##Vote Kushm4sta Why are you AFK and conforming to your scum meta? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 21:59 Mattchew wrote: honestly? look at the last 3 days (i honestly thought i voted hapa) but theres been no real necessary discussion. lynch marv, hapa, kush. We aren't lynching off analysis or discussion, we are lynching off of roles and setup ish. So your answer is to let town die with lack of discussion? What happens when we aren;t dictated to by blue roles and we have a town full of AFK vets? Who are your top reads and why. What do you think Of VE's case on Z-Boson? What do you think of Z-Bosons case on Me? It is not like there has been nothing to comment on. Seems like a pretty weak excuse to me. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 22:38 Mattchew wrote: just because i am not concerned does this not make me a citizen?! but srsly has anything posted other than ve's claim been useful? and sloosh is clearly scum trying to earlier push the BC 3rd party lynch Then make a case on sloosh if it is so clearly there. I thought you said there was nothing to discuss? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:04 kushm4sta wrote: ##vote ve not my biggest scumread but it's his fault im dying. If you really are town you should be pushing your biggest scum read. That gives us something to go off when you flip. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:15 kushm4sta wrote: already did bra... check the filter. Z BO I said it millions and millions of times. also remember our agreement remember it./ Then you should be clear about it by voting him and posting a strong case on him. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:27 Coagulation wrote: im pretty sure kush is town now.. Yeah, He seems pretty townie in the face of death. Who would you rather lynch? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:29 iamperfection wrote: anyone up for..... dare i say it..... some last minute shenanigans. We have an hour and a half. And all the votes are on kush. I think it will be difficult. But something feels off about kush's behaviour in comparison to both marv and hapa and kush's meta. So I am up for it. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:35 Z-BosoN wrote: So now you are saying that huh? Didn't that make me scummy? I am not using it to get a mislynch buddy. Like you did. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:40 Z-BosoN wrote: are you on drugs? wtf are you talking about You didn't say oh kush is townie lets not lynch him. You said why doesn't DP think kush is townie. He is suspicious for that. All the while still voting kush and setting up a mislynch on me if kush flipped green. That is the key difference in motivation between being genuinely worried about kush's lynch. And having an ulterior motive which it was incredibly transparent you had. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:45 Z-BosoN wrote: THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN FUCKING SAYING!!! and you were using that to say I'm scum: This guy is hella scum. He said I was scummy because I had a suspicion kush was town, yet did not want to lynch him. Moments later, he has a suspicion kush is town, but doesn't want to lynch him. His scumhunting is not legit. Does NO ONE find this ridiculous? ffs You are full of shit ZB there is a very clear difference in how you went about it and how I went about it. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:47 Z-BosoN wrote: Ulterior motive my balls, I was very clear in my thoughts You were very clear in voting Kush then immediately calling me suspicious for not thinking he was town and putting in the groundwork for my lynch if Kush flipped green. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:50 kushm4sta wrote: ZB the difference is that DP brings it up in the context of changing his vote. You bring it up just as a thought, without any notion to do anything about it. The only reason you said it is to look right when I flipped. Also Z-Boson did it moments after he voted for you. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Let's do this ##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Z-boson | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:54 Z-BosoN wrote: lol. Clear difference? Clear as balls. Gg no re. Are you not reading? or are you stupid? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 10:55 Z-BosoN wrote: He said the same thing I did: Yet, it makes me scummy, because I'm milking town cred, but not him. Read the exchange guys. Yes. Please read the exchange. And then Vote for ZB | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
You are scummy as fuck and are trying to capitalise on kush flipping green. So now I think Kush is green and you are scum caught with you pants around your ankles. PLEASE UNVOTE AND VOTE FOR Z-BOSON we have an hour. Let's do this. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:05 Keirathi wrote: It's you saying things like this that keep me from unvoting you. You're PLAYING like you're town, but you're TALKING like your life is the most important thing in the game. Townies aren't generally so...survival oriented. Kush is always survival oriented. Seriously though. Z -Boson = DrWiggl3s from NMMXXI | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:10 DarthPunk wrote: Z-Boson. If you think Kush is green why is your vote still parked on him? I thought the reason you unvoted Node and didn't vote shady was that you thought neither of them were scum. So now you don't think kush is scum and have a vote on him. Surely to stay consistent you should unvote. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I think kush might be town. So I try to stop his lynch. Unvote. Try to get others to Unvote. You think kush is town. And you use it to lay the framework down for a mislynch on me. You don't care that he is getting lynched. All you care about is getting me lynched off the back of it. That is the clear motivational difference between us. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:28 Z-BosoN wrote: What scum motive? That I'm milking town cred? I gave my reasoning as to why I thought he could be town. I don't get your "scum motive" Don't be an OMGUSy ass hat and tell me to go read. Explain to me. Why is me considering the possibility of kush being town scummy, when I've given my reasoning to think so? I have explained this several times in the last few pages. Don't be an asshat and make me repeat myself instead of going and reading the thread. I don't believe you are actually this dense. You didn't vote for node because you thought he was town. And yet you vote for kush despite going at me for not thinking he is town. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:29 Z-BosoN wrote: Thank you. So why can't this: hold true for me? Because you set the groundwork for me to be mislynched if Kush flipped green. You don;t care that someone you think is town is getting lynched but want to lynch me for not thinking he is town. And you are directly contradicting your previous explanation for unvoting node. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:28 Z-BosoN wrote: You did change your mind. You went from "kush is sure scum" to "kush may be town now". There is no way you cannot admit this. I said TWICE before this post I changed my mind. This does not make me scum. Are you actually not reading anything? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:35 kushm4sta wrote: This back and forth is going no where. ZBO I just want to get on record for future town to see: What do you think my alignment is and how certain are you? No. Fuck that. Let's lynch Z-BO. he is scummy scummy scum scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 10 2012 14:03 Z-BosoN wrote: Kush, you are acting a lot more townie this game when confronted to a lynch. I find it weird how DP is making no mention of this, since he's the "kush expert" here Followed by your case on me Followed by On October 10 2012 15:39 Z-BosoN wrote: Also, I'd like to hear some thoughts on DP, concerning my case on him. His play this game seems a bit off, compared to the one we just came off of. You did this before I said anything about lynching you. You clearly tried to mislynch me off the back of a kush lynch. Then I found you suspicious for it. And now you are misrepresenting that to counter accuse me of the exact thing you are guilty of. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:38 kushm4sta wrote: The back and forth needs to end. Everyone knows both of your positions on each other and you are clogging up the thread at this point. ZBO please answer my question. Yep I agree. Please unvote Kush and vote Z-B. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:40 Z-BosoN wrote: I agree, this is pointless. DP, try thinking a bit more before you post, it helps. Anyways, my vote stands on kush. While I'm finding it odd that he's been a lot more different, I don't think that weighs more than VE's cop claim on him. LOL | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:41 Z-BosoN wrote: Omfg, he's that dense. I'm not trying to mislynch you off of kush. I'm trying to LYNCH you because I find you scum. See this clusterfuck I've bothered to make? Yea. So you are not trying to mislynch me off the back of kush? Except the majority of your case is about me tunnelling kush and not thinking he is townie. Cool story. The rest is just shit. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:43 Keirathi wrote: inb4 Z-Bo and DP both scum distancing themselves from each other and the kush lynch Right. You going to contribute anything useful keir? Or are you just scum watching this and laughing from the sidelines? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 11:46 kushm4sta wrote: Why hasn't zbo answered my question.. i asked so nice many times. Z-BOSON please please please: What do you think my alignment is and how certain are you? Cause he is the most obvious most blatant scum ever. He is more scummy than Kush with a RED CHECK. Go figure. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
So Z-B thinks Kush is scum His case against me is that I am tunnelling kush and don't think Kush is town. And he says that he is not setting me up for if Kush flips green. Despite the fact his whole case is useless if kush flips red. Burn him with fire. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 12:13 Keirathi wrote: I'm not going to feel guilty voting for a townie with a red check. That's just the way the game works. I personally believed that you were town because of your interactions with marv, but the smart play is not to trust my gut and to go with the claimed check, because I've been pretty terribly wrong with town reads in the past (seriously, go back and look at my reads in Newbie XXII. they were roflbad). As far as pushing a VE lynch....I don't know. VE's claim timing was...weird. But its also weird that he as scum would be willing to trade himself 1-for-1 with you. No offense, but you're an easy lynch to push because half of the things you say don't make sense from a townie perspective. I don't see why scum VE would want to trade 1-for-1 with you, when their scum team was already hemorrhaging members. VE is cop. There is no way he would trade 1 for 1 with kush. Especially after Marv and Hapa go down. This is all WIFOM of course. But I don't see VE fake claiming. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 12:17 kushm4sta wrote: How is this 1 for 1 someone please explain to me? In what circumstance can his claim be proven to be fake? He is risking getting lynched for your mislynch. Why would he take that risk when he could probably pushed a mislynch without taking that risk. You are right in that it is WIFOM however. and that should be acknowledged. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 12:19 Z-BosoN wrote: Can you not shut the fuck up? I think you are retard and a scum. You think I'm a retard and a scum. Let other people read and decide for themselves, you are just being anti-town here. Seriously. Your case has no weight without kush flipping green. Which you say you think is highly likely. That does not match up with pushing a case that is useless without a kush green flip. It is not anti town to point out how your case is scummy your arguments hinge on something you state to be highly unlikely. You are scum and I am not going to stop pushing you. If you think kush is 75% scum. How does it make me scummy for tunnelling him and not thinking he is town? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 12:40 kushm4sta wrote: yeah I guess the doubt will always be there if i'm not lynched Have you changed your reads? You should dump them before you die. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 11 2012 14:03 VisceraEyes wrote: No I'm done reading for now DP. I'm going to smoke, sleep and read in the morning. OK. Night ^_^ | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I find that scenario INCREDIBLY unlikely. Sanity is certainly in question. AS is the possibility of a framer or something similar. But we should not be lynching VE right now. I find it very interesting that Z - Boson has dropped his pressure of me. Despite what he 'foresaw' (despite thinking it was highly unlikely) in his case coming true. I want to lynch Z - Boson. He clearly tried to entrap me with a green kush flip and his case relied upon this. Despite his vote for kush and stating kush was 75% red. He also stopped the lynch of scum day one by throwing away his vote. Even though he says he wasnted neither to get lynched. What he was actually doing, and every thinking rational individual would know this, was lynching shady and saving scum. His 'I thought neither was scum so voted for neither' Is silly as it was clear that his actions would cause a shady lynch. And save node. What he actually did with his vote was: I prefer shady to be lynched rather than node. That is Scummy. Combine it with trying to entrap me with clear foreknowledge of kush's flip Despite calling him red and voting for him. he expressed doubt over kush;s alignment. And instead of attempting to lynch someone else like the others who doubted the claim. He used his doubt to set up a further mislynch Z- Boson is scum and must be lynched. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
It doesn't make any sense at all to fake claim cop. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Why would ZB unvpte node to save node and lynch shady if he had previously thought node was scummy enough to vote for? The obvious consequence is that shady is more likely lynched after unvoting node. So ZB backflipped from thinking node was scum to backflipping so much as to indirectly aid the lynch of someone he thought was town. To save someone else he thought was town but had just voted for? And all this just happens to derail a scum lynch day one? Right. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote: He's said that he didn't HAVE a read on Node...that he was blindly sheeping me and Marv. However, he then goes on to say that he had a townread on Node after all. I wonder which is true... Why the fuck would you vote for someone you had a town read on?!?!? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 10:21 VisceraEyes wrote: He claims it's because after thinking about it, he realized he was blindly sheeping, went and reread and found that Node felt agreed with him on Shady or something and that turned into a townread. At least that's how I interpreted his explanation. So he got a town read on node for agreeing that shady was town? Then aids shady's lynch in order to save someone who he thought was town because they both had town reads on shady. But then he let's shady die by saving the person he read as town for reading shady as town? And node flips red. And this happened when votes were tied. 0_o | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 10:24 Mattchew wrote: VE how am i scummy? ps. i am back pps. kush flipping town changes shit LOL. I swear BM wasn't in this game. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 10:26 Z-BosoN wrote: Now see who's going for the little details. I didn't find him lynch worthy, unlike Node. Anyways, I'm up to my balls with this Node thing. If you read my quotes in this defense you can see that I was already feeling unsatisfied with my vote on Node. My unvoting comes right after Node's defense post, which makes me choose where I'm going. Refer here: I'm not gonna bother with this anymore. I think this is a really shitty reason to lynch me, and if you wanna feel proud that in my 7 page filter this sole thing that has a perfectly reasonable townie explanation seals the deal to me being scum, then fine, great job on your scumhunting skills, pat yourselves on the back once I flip town. It's also ironic how you basically summed it up here how I'm feeling: Won't bother with this anymore. That is far from the only thing that makes you scummy. But nice martyr. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 10:37 Z-BosoN wrote: That actually makes him even more townie looking imo. Scum don't like saying risky shit such as that. That remark is like 99% confused and paranoid townie. He want's to NK/Lynch VE. The claimed cop. And his justification is getting info he already has. I don't see how that makes him townie at all. Also. Still think I am scum? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
If he is third party I would lean towards him being an arsonist with the little number of KP there have been at night. or he could be a SK holding back? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 12:59 Keirathi wrote: In case I die tonight: DarthPunk I originally gave him a town read when he replaced into the game because of his case on me. He was absolutely right, I hadn't done anything in the game to establish myself as town, and I've been lurking pretty hard. But some key things stand out to me: 1) When the lynch actually mattered (day 4), he didn't even mention me or try to push me at all. There was a pretty long period of time before VE claimed the red check on kush. And, he even went so far as to agree with my case on slOosh. Why is he agreeing with someone who looks "really scummy to him"? 2) His reasoning for pushing kush was pretty terrible. + Show Spoiler [Sorry, this was kind of long so I spoi…] + On October 09 2012 17:28 DarthPunk wrote: You Employed WIFOM against me in order to mask your scum slips and meta. By intentionally making scum slips and employing your scum meta. It is the scummiest thing that has happened in this thread. And bvy god you should have been lynched for it days ago. It even caused ToutEstChaos to change his mind and make you his number one scum read. A confirmed town thinks you were the most likely scum. You shat all over the thread. You have barely scum hunted despite a lengthy filter. You have proven that you are aware of your meta so that is now useless. You employed Wifom to mask your scumslips and scum meta. Marv defended you before he was caught. Hapa defended you before he was caught. As soon as you became toutEstchaos' number one scum read he died. The only argument in your favor comes from a suspicious player in his own right. And is comprised of pure WIFOM and speculation. I have not voted for you so now you are lying or not reading. And the case against you is far more than you 'fucking with me' which in itself is far to simplistic an explanation. Not a single thing in that "case" demonstrated kush being scum. In fact, like I argued, based on marv's meta, the point about marv defending him actually pushed him into a town read for me. 3) He throws around the word WIFOM to discredit any opinions that he doesn't share, but he's fine using "WIFOM" arguments himself: But, when I point out, with a "WIFOM" read of kush based on marv's meta: Why is it okay for him, but not for me? Because he's scum and just looking for reasons to discredit people. 4) Complete turnaround on kush as the lynch got closer I'm not going to quote them all here, but look at every post he made about kush. Everyone single one, until 2 hours before the lynch deadline, was him being absolutely certain that kush was scum. No doubt whatsoever. He even claimed that kush had been doing exactly the same thing that he did in LVII as scum with the "If I'm town, you'll agree that you're dumb?" thing. *THEN* there was the claimed red check that should have strengthened his read. I just don't see town DP suddenly changing his mind because of a few things that kush said. As it happened, it just felt like scum DP trying to distance himself from the lynch and buy some townie points after the flip for having a "change of heart". 5) Seems to *KNOW* that VE isn't lying about the cop claim As town, DP should have a healthy paranoia that VE was lying about the claim. Hell, I know I do. But DP insists that 100% VE can't be lying: (Also, note again, that he's happy to use WIFOM when it benefits him). But...you weren't lynching him from the red check? You were lynching him because you had a scum read on him. He's just too sure that VE can't be lying. + Show Spoiler + Not entirely relevant, but circumstantial evidence that just personally adds to my read of him being scum: talismania (who DP replaced), is known for being super lurky/disinterested as scum (and maybe even getting modreplaced?) It makes sense to me that talis rolled scum and then didn't care about the game anymore so got modkilled slOosh I still think slOosh is scum. Case for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16495401 Now, for the 5th (and probably last?) scum. Somewhere between Mattchew/ShiaoPi/VE. I would only believe its VE at this point if someone else counterclaims him though. Yeah I agreed that your case was good. It was. My case on you was based on inactivity and lack of scumhunting. You were then active and scumhunted. You made a good case on Sloosh. and the initial reasons for my suspicions had become less prevalent that I didn't really find you that suspicious anymore. Certainly not a town read. But not enough for me to push for your lynch. I don't think my case on kush was terrible at all. But if you do that is your prerogative. I don't see how being bad = being scum Yeah. I use WIFOM sometimes. but generally as an addition to other factors as I use it often to get a gut read. Certainly a case can;t be pure WIFOM as yours was. But I feel it is worth considering at times. None of this makes me scum however. My reversal on Kush was based on a.) his attitude in the face of defeat. and b.) the Z-Boson exchanges. I was not the only person to change their mind on the Kush lynch. and there was a clear progression for me to make that change of mind. Changing my mind does not = scum And anyone who does not believe VE cop claim has either not read the thread or is overly paranoid. doesn't make me scum either. You have done a fair job of pointing out the flaws in my play. But I think most of it has to do with myself not properly explaining the thought process behind certain decisions/reads. I certainly don't see anything scummy. Nor do I see how you can be so certain I am scum off such a poor case. What you have stated is certainly true to an extent. But it does not make me scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:04 VisceraEyes wrote: I just said why no one was killed. Scum had to withhold shots so they could change the flip. Psh duh. Like I just said it Darth weren't you listening? Yeha. But that is just conjecture. And if those mechanics were present wouldn't they be in the OP like they are in LVIII? I understand that is possible. But I would have thought those kind of mechanics would have been in the OP. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:07 VisceraEyes wrote: It's a closed setup. We weren't told what the roles do. They could do anything. Would you expect a role like "Medical Examiner" to be a watcher type role? Honestly... Still How many KP would it be worth to sacrifice to hide Kush's flip. 1? 2? Doesn't seem worth it. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:10 VisceraEyes wrote: It wouldn't be worth it to HIDE his flip...you don't think it would be worth it to REVERSE his flip? Maybe discredit the claimed cop? Are you being intentionally obtuse? Not intentionally. Meh forget it. I defer to your experience and skill. I Guess they wanted to fuck with you. Anyway. Who did you check? If the above holds true your checks are actually worth something again. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I am going to take a stab that you checked sloosh. He is a good target to check because he has been called up as a potential lynch candidate several times already so is likely to be on the lynch agenda. He is lurking pretty hard so it is difficult to make a read or case based purely on his content. If he is town You have saved a lurker from a mislynch. If he is red you have got hard evidence that may have been difficult to acquire without your check. Sloosh was the best target and you checked him. Addendum. Don't wait half the day. WTF. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:27 Coagulation wrote: ok im lynching ve i dont give a shit LoL coag you seem... upset. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:42 Coagulation wrote: how the fuck do you know they didnt roleblock toss? Wait. What? Holy shit. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:46 VisceraEyes wrote: They might have - I'm just saying - they didn't do BOTH of those things. Why not? They could get away with killing me scott free. NO. You said they didn't roleblock MMToss. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:48 VisceraEyes wrote: Stop being an idiot Darth It's clear what I meant in context. Stop calling me an idiot whenever I question something that you say. That was a scum slip if I have ever seen one. I can only assume you were retarded enough to fake claim cop and have now slipped. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
The fact is you said they didn't roleblock MMtoss and you have no way of knowing if they did/didn't or could/couldn't It gives the impression of additional information. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:58 Coagulation wrote: its just retarded speculation. not a slip. Hmmm. Still. Why would VE check MMtoss? It seems like that is the exact claim that scum would make if they were fake claiming. VE knows this. So why did he check someone so obvious. UNLESS. VE was checking MMtoss' alignment in order to confirm his sanity or whatever as cop. In that case if coag and MMtoss are the alignments that they have claimed. Then VE is sane cop. and Kush was framed or his alignment was altered on death. If kush's alignment was hidden on death. We should be Looking at Keir, DP, ZB, Iamperfection This is why VE asked about this group before which means he likely believes the alignment altering scenario. This would make sense as we are missing KP and they could have been 'traded' for this power. If he was framed we should be looking at ZB plus a whole host of others. But this is less likely as in that case we are inexplicably missing KP. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:00 Keirathi wrote: First, you're jumping on something that it was very obvious what he meant. Second, VE ALREADY CLAIMED TO HAVE BEEN ROLEBLOCKED ON NIGHT 1. And Mementoss claimed to be roleblocked on...night 3? Whatever the night was that he claimed watcher. So of course he assumes the scum has a roleblocker. His point is perfectly valid if he's a townie. Scum would have known that he wasn't lying about being rolecop, and would have known that Mementoss wasn't lying about being watcher, so they could have RB'd Mementoss and got a basically guaranteed kill on the claimed Cop. However, if one or VE or Mementoss are scum, though, then that starts breaking down, obviously. Exactly. And it wasn't that obvious what he meant. It looked like a pretty huge slip to me. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Then you come at me again for thinking that is based on him NOT being Town. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:17 VisceraEyes wrote: What a terribly interesting reaction. Can you elaborate? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:20 Keirathi wrote: I wasn't calling you scum. I saying that you calling the VE thing a "scum slip" was absolutely retarded. In fact, now that you bring it up, you were SO FUCKING SURE that VE was a cop. How is your first thought when you see VE says that suddenly "WOW he fucking scumslipped!". If you 'thought' he was town, you should have been thinking about what he said from a town perspective, in which case it should have made 100% sense to you what he was trying to say. NOW I'm calling you scum. You can't even keep your story straight. Nope I didn't read it that way. And following what to me plainly looked like a scum slip I altered my read on him. My story is straight. Whatever Keir. You are grasping at straws. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Haha. Yep. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:23 VisceraEyes wrote: Saying "Hey that assumes they have a roleblocker" doesn't mean he doesn't know they have a roleblocker Coag - it just means that he's feigning townie ignorance...except that we KNOW scum have a roleblocker because both of the claimed roles have claimed roleblocked. He can't keep his "townie ignorance" straight because he can't remember what we know and don't know. Catch up Coag geez. Except the veracity of their claims have been in doubt for the past two days. So it is only 100% if we believe their claims 100% | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:27 VisceraEyes wrote: If you say so guy. It made sense to me - but then, I'm kinda a stoner. I think television static makes sense sometimes. I can see why you think I am scummy for misinterpreting something as a scumslip. As coag did also. Of course it made sense to you. But to others it is not so cut and dry.Keir can say 'it was obvious if you read it as town VE saying it'. But it wasn't to me. And the roleblocker is based on the claims of two people who have been doubted strongly. So it's hardly what I would call proof. Anyway. I can't really argue against the perspective of you guys on this. I can understand it your way now that it has been explained to me. But I don't feel it was as obvious as you make it out to be. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:33 VisceraEyes wrote: Scum were sure they could get me lynched if they didn't withhold their KP. As in, if someone claims getting shot, then their play was to lynch me I think. That's the only way I can make sense of still being alive. Did I already tell you guys I suspect the "Detective" role is the scum roleblocker? The only way I can see scum missing both KP is if there was a 3rd medic and/or they tried to shoot into BC again and he is 3rd party. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:36 VisceraEyes wrote: "both" KP huh? "both" I didn't know how many they had. Thx Darth you're a bro. Really? The last 2 nights having 2KP didn't tell you that? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:39 VisceraEyes wrote: Last night there were no KP. And we don't know if there's SK KP floating around. So no. They didn't tell me that. So you think in a game with 2 medics that scum would have 1kp? in a 15 player game? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:43 VisceraEyes wrote: Scum are 2 down. I don't know how many they started with. I don't know the KP formula. I don't know if there's SK KP floating around. I don't know anything about the KP Darth. For someone who was playing dumb just a few minutes ago, you're starting to sound an awfully lot like you know an awful lot. There were 2 night kills with one scum down. with 2 medics gone. The only way for there not to be 2 KP for scum is if there is a Serial Killer and that meant that scum had 1KP with one player down. With 2 medics 2 watchers and a cop in a 25 player game. You are perfectly aware of this you are just fucking with me cause you think I am scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:47 ShiaoPi wrote: lol reading this in class is like fucking amazing. Did not get to lynch you in LVII for the scumslip, will be able to this game I guess. Thanks for claiming scum DP <3 ##Vote DarthPunk LoL. Is this actually happening? For assuming the most obvious thing in the world. Shiao Pi you are obviously scum. Come into the thread after afking to drop a vote onto a mislynch. Seriously. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:44 VisceraEyes wrote: What happened to "That assumes 1 KP...that assumes scum have a roleblocker" Why are you making assumptions about scum's capabilities now, but not MINUTES ago when I was musing about the nokills? That assumes 1KP. Exactly. Which is why I didn't buy it. Because that was not the best assumption to make. I don't even find it plausible. I assumed 2 KP. Obviously. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:50 ShiaoPi wrote: ahahaha, scumslip is scumslip, die DP I am not going to shit up the thread with you like LVII I am not shitting up anything. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 15:56 ShiaoPi wrote: Yadayadayada You are.just flipflopping way too much for your act of "paranoid" townie. You might not be doing it now but I can see coming What the fuck are you talking about? I am not flip flopping. there was no scum slip. I can understand why it looks bad. But I am not scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 17:33 Kreb wrote: And Im totally not feeling like voting DP if the whole case is built around him saying "both KP". Thats a very weak case and theres probably plenty of similar could-be-scumslips all over the thread. If someone can find something useful on him which can be added to such a slip, sure. But lynching DP on that flip alone? Hell no. To be fair. That is not all that there is on me. You should read the cases by keirathi and Z-Boson and the stuff around when I thought Viscera Eyes had scum slipped. It is all reasonable fair. But I feel it revolves around changing my mind in reaction to new information and bad play etc. Obviously I don't feel there is anything that makes me scummy. But it would be unfair to say it is based on that 'slip'. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 12 2012 19:32 Kreb wrote: In conclusion, I really think Kush was town. Theres little reason to believe otherwise. VE disagrees with you. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Night. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
So the reason for my absence. is RL commitments and then sleep. I am back now and going to post some stuff. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 08:38 VisceraEyes wrote: No, I mean certain of his guilt. Yep. I was. I found him scummy. And then you had a red check against him. So double scummy. But then the shit with Z-Boson happened and that, combined with Kush's behaviour as the lynch approached caused me to alter my view. I don't know about you. But I am always willing to alter my perspective with new or more clear information. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 08:41 VisceraEyes wrote: Followed up with Literally calling the lynch a "mislynch" and voteswitching off him. Yeah man, reads change...but he was defending my check and everything, followed up with this? I think your blinders are on Kreb, I want someone's opinion who doesn't want me dead. No offense, of course. Also. I still defended your check after he flipped green. Because I could not fathom a player with your reputation fake claiming cop to potentially trade one for one with kush. I didn't see the point. I still don't. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 08:43 VisceraEyes wrote: I misread that post - he's talking TO Kush regarding speculation that I'm scum. But he was onboard the "Kush is townie" train dusk yesterday, this is documented. Yep. So were others. ZB's entire case against me relied on Kush being town. Even though he later stated kush was 75% red. He used the possibility of kush being town to try and lynch me. I wanted to not lynch someone I thought was town in the end. This is all not scummy. In fact it is pro town. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Not bullshit. Use your words please. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Not scum hunting. Tunnelling kush as an excuse to avoid scumhunting. That all falls apart if kush is red. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 08:55 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't like any of you who were saying you thought the way Kush was acting was townie. I disagree entirely, and as such cannot relate with any of your suspicions surrounding it. You're all equally scummy to me for that. I have played or obs'd every kush game. I know his play better than you. He was not acting the same in face of a lynch. To be fair. He used his meta to WIFOM me so he could have changed it. And I don't see why town kush would WIFOM bomb me in order to make himself unreadable. But he looked pretty damn townie towards the end. And in coordination with ZB's case being unsound with a townie kush. I thought he was being mislynched and I would be set up off the back of it. Turns out he flipped green So either he was townie and framed. Scum and flip was hidden. or you lied. I don't see why scum would form a last minute counter-wagon if any of these were true. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:06 VisceraEyes wrote: So? It hasn't fallen apart yet, he flipped green didn't he? And you even had a townread on the guy before he flipped. So what about ZBos' case falls apart? \ Nothing. But he didn;t know that. And when he made the case he was certain kush was red. It speaks of ZB knowing the flip of kush before hand and trying to lynch me off hte back of it. Be rational. Why on earth would someone make a case based on a flip that was highly unlikely. Then continue to push that case at length before the flip and despite thinking kush would flip in a way that ould cause the case to fall apart? Entrapment. Based on additional information. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:09 VisceraEyes wrote: So vote for me. If that's honestly how you feel the plop a vote down on me and convince others it's the best course of action. The only reason I can see for you telling me that is to attempt to incite anger. No. I want to lynch Z-Boson more. Obviously. I voted for him over a red checked kush. I could also vote for shiao with his OMG OMG SCUM! bullshit and then disappearing again. I have no fucking Idea about you. But at this point your very existence is anti town. Surely you can understand that. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:15 VisceraEyes wrote: No, I don't understand that. My existence isn't "antitown" because I'm town. My existence is one extra day we get to try and find scum. You know who like to say that townies' existence are anti town? I'll give you three guesses. That is bullshit VE. If we spend the rest of the game questioning your alignment and not scumhunting, it is better that you are dead instead. I see that you are just bringing up a whole bunch of shit to see what will stick. Thing is none of it will. Because I ain't scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Then scumhunt. I'm not stopping you or anyone from scumhunting. I'm a DT so you either believe me and look elsewhere or you think I'm lying and you lynch me. If I'm not the lynch candidate than no one should be considering my alignment. I'm not just trying to "see what will stick", I'm pointing out the things that I think are scummy in your play. I mean, if there's good reason for it fine - but the reasoning you're giving is awful. Like, how does me being alive stop anyone from scumhunting? You have obviously not just had the unfortunate experience of having to catch up on a thread that largely contains speculation regarding yourself. A flamewar between yourself and BC you rage quitting the game. and discussion dominated on if you should/should not be alive. Also a shit load of setup speculation based on claims on assumptions that just seem silly. It makes reading the thread difficult. It gives scum opportunity to blend in. It is anti town. There are certain situations that a lynch is beneficial to town regardless of their alignment. You are pointing things out. I don't think they are scummy. If the reasoning is 'awful' why don;t you elaborate instead of moving onto the next small thing? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:40 Kreb wrote: This situation making me nervous as fuck. Still votes everywhere. Can everyone who hasnt voted yet please throw out your votes on your top scum reads? Please. Yeah I agree. I am voting Z-Boson. Case is repeated ad-nauseum in my filter. I am willing to consolidate onto ShiaoPi or Viscera Eyes. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:41 iamperfection wrote: someone tell me why shaopi is town. Is that a trick question? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Will you vote for Z-B? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:45 VisceraEyes wrote: Yes, actually. I've been catching up on this thread all day. It's a chore sure, but not just because of me. Yes I had a little blowout with BC yesterday, but that's FAR from made the thread unreadable. And it certainly doesn't STOP anyone from scumhunting - people can filter, people can skip the posts in question...the simple fact that these things are in the thread doesn't make me antitown dude. And where was all this "VE is anti-town and should just die" sentiment before now? You're accusing ZBoson of the EXACT SAME THING YOU ARE DOING. You were setting up ZBos lynch based on a flip that had not occured, after being certain the lynch was scum at the beginning of the day and having doubts about the lynch toward the end of the day. That's the EXACT scenario you're accusing ZBoson of. That is scummy, I don't care what differences there are between the scenarios. The end result is exactly the same (setting up a lynch of the other), and the reasoning is exactly the same (went from scum read to town read without knowledge of the flip). I also find it odd that ZBos is now this super scumread for you, and ShiaoPi is barely a footnote in your reads when he had a "really strong case" against him in the form of Tout's case and yet now when we have a lynch in place, you're trying to get someone OTHER than ShiaoPi lynched. Like...sure okay, varying degrees of scumminess, reads change, whatever...but he has since done something you've found super scummy, but he's not as bad as this other guy? Who did something you yourself did? I am willing to vote for Shiao PI. Maybe it is personal but I really want to lynch Z-Boson. But I am totally willing to vote shiao pi for his OMG SCUMSLIP OMG DP DIEEE! case. Like I already said this. And if it is weird that Z-B is a super scum read maybe you should reread my filter where I call him out for 3 pages. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 09:48 Kreb wrote: Who hasnt voted? DP and ZB? I haven't voted. at this stage I will need to consolidate most likely. I will vote for Z-B Shiao or VE looks like shiao Pi is the best pick right now ##Vote: Shiao PI | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:07 Keirathi wrote: I don't give a fuck what VE's "check" was. Because Kush flipped town. We KNOW that something is wrong. There are too many unexplainable things, and no way to verify any of them. My gut tells me that Kush was town. He flipped town. So, from my perspective, either one of two things happened: 1) Kush was framed or 2) VE is lying. On October 14 2012 11:09 Keirathi wrote: The only reason anyone has ever thought that coroner could change a flip was because VE FUCKING SUGGESTED IT. In my experience, people only speculate about roles that they should have no fucking clue about when they actually have some information about said role. On October 14 2012 11:12 VisceraEyes wrote: Kei I do. I HAVE A FUCKING MOD REPORT THAT SAYS MAFIA CORONER. Thats the information I have that you're suggesting. Yeah. This is just going to keep on being an issue. I feel like a VE is the best lynch today. Then we know his alignment. Potentially discover MMtoss and coags alignments. Reduce the pool of potential scum. Have some Idea of what the fuck is going on. I don't know if he is lying or telling the truth. But I feel like If it is even 50/50 that he is lying it is best we lynch him. If he is scum we catch scum. And can move on from this shit storm. If he is town. We trade VE for 2 confirmed townies. and we can move on from this shit storm. I implore you all to vote Viscera Eyes. ##Unvote ##Vote: Viscera Eyes | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote: DP, VE is not getting lynched today -_- We have an hour. Why not? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:24 Z-BosoN wrote: omg town is confused as ever... DP, you keep insisting and insisting that my case on you is based on kush being town. You were the FIRST one to cast scumminess on me with that logic... the ONLY remark I made before that was that "I was finding it weird that you didn't acknowledge how kush's meta was different from last game", which is not my entire case. You took ONE sidenote, made it my entire case, and said the rest was shit, which is not true. I really don't buy DP's scumhunting as legit... Could be a townie that's heavily misinterpreting what I say but what really makes me want to lynch him is the amount of OMGUS he deployed, comparable to when he was scum in LVII. We really have to get shit down, scum is heavily disorienting this lynch.. It seems like the DP wagon is really really not wanting to take off, despite so much stuff I've written on him, this is bothering me a fair lot. I will settle for ShiaoPi/mattchew, if this is really the case. Not sure which though. Everytime I think about it I change my mind, this is becoming quite annoying. You have 1 game to make a meta read on me. And that is what it boils down to. You obviously believe you said something vastly different to what you actually said. Regardless. Save it for tomorrow. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Either way he is a good lynch IMO. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Because the only reason he is really in a position to be lynched is because he wasn't shot last night. Yes the kush flip looks bad however it can easily be explained via the likelyhood mafia could hide a flip. By offing someone who is quite possibly what he claims, all you are doing is reducing the amount of confirmed townies to a lower amount and thus let them be picked off far more quickly. More specifically however, of VE, Coag and MMtoss, VE is overall doing the most thus losing him if he is town is the bigger detriment. Hmm. Ok. but that entirely dismisses the chance of him being scum. Which is weird cause you were voting him earlier. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:32 Kreb wrote: BC, whats your thought on DP? Why? do you think I am scum? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:39 Coagulation wrote: Theres nothing to speculate about. He wouldnt of confirmed me as town if he was scum. If he was scum he would know you are town. Also I said this same thing to you before when you wanted to lynch him for info :/ | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
##unvote ##Vote: Shiao Pi | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:41 Coagulation wrote: if he was scum he would know im town but he wouldnt have confirmed it for town.. and I dont think I ever wanted to lynch him. your thinking of someone else. On October 12 2012 14:27 Coagulation wrote: ok im lynching ve i dont give a shit On October 12 2012 10:32 DarthPunk wrote: Also coag why the fuck would YOU want to lynch VE for information. You know if he is sane or not because you know your own alignment and how it matches up with his check on you. Thus you probably can deduce better than others if there is a framer or not. Unless you are actually scum. On October 12 2012 10:34 VisceraEyes wrote: YEAH WHAT THE FUCK COAG?! God I've just been assuming you're town because of my check...but that doesn't make ANY fucking sense! | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:42 BloodyC0bbler wrote: If mafia shoot him and he flips, it confirms his checks. If mafia shoot one of his checks, it confirms his checks / him. Basically, to keep the speculating going means they have to guess who he will check / confirm next and narrow the noose. If he checks someone they don't shoot it reduces the possible pool of players. Him being alive backs them into a corner. Yeah. That makes sense. I didn't think of it in depth like that. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:46 Kreb wrote: Im flip flopping around quite a lot right now. Trying to consider everything since the VE lynch doesnt seem to take off. Strongly believe you to be scum? No. But right now my biggest scum read is voting ShiaoPi and two people making the wierdest cases on me are voting Matt. Matt however at least said something I can relate to as townish. On the other hand, BC who I consider to look very much town is heavily favoring Matt. Meanwhile, people are popping up with votes your way too. And your jump on VE doesnt seem completely geniune either considering you've had days of time to join me on that wagon. Im still open to all these three + staying on VE. Can you blame me for flip flopping around? I've already come to terms with that I'll be called scummy by some people no matter who I vote for so thats no problem. I just got jack shit of the VE situation. You should unvote VE. BC makes sense. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:42 BloodyC0bbler wrote: If mafia shoot him and he flips, it confirms his checks. If mafia shoot one of his checks, it confirms his checks / him. Basically, to keep the speculating going means they have to guess who he will check / confirm next and narrow the noose. If he checks someone they don't shoot it reduces the possible pool of players. Him being alive backs them into a corner. This assumes He is town though. What if he is scum? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:52 Kreb wrote: I agree I should. And I will most likely unvote VE. Wanna make up my mind on who to switch for though. No. Wtf? you should vote for who out of matt/shiao you think is more likely to be scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
Shiao Pi. Useless lurker who jumped all over me for a 'scum slip' Mattchew: Useless lurker who lurks uselessly as scum. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:55 Kreb wrote: What did I say which contradicted this? Of course Im heavily considering Matt/Shiao atm? I meant wtf? as in why would you ask someone you just considered scum to make up your mind for you? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:56 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Also, the mafia not shooting seems to be a ploy to get VE offed. As if they had fired near universally VE would be yelled at for the kush incident but the explanation of the coroner role would be accepted. Its the lack of anyone dying that has led to the real suspicion on him. Why the fuck would scum not shoot in order to mislynch someone they could have shot. 0_o | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:59 Kreb wrote: Dude, you need to quote better. Where did I ask anything in that quote? I dont get what you're trying to say. Wheres the question? Theres no question there. err. my bad. I thought it was a question. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I have a town read on kreb. VE could easily be scum and is actually getting away with a fake claim 0_o. I still think shiao is scummy as fuck for his 'OMG SCUMMSLIPUU' > AFK. I could also Vote VE VE's case is based on meta from 1 game which was kreb's second game if I recall correctly and a game in whihc he replaced in. kreb's early play resembled his town play in those games (I obs'd his newbie) and his later play I think is rationally explained with the odd circumstances this game. Kreb is Town. And I feel questioning VE is entirely rational at this point. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 16 2012 08:49 Kreb wrote: Coag: You know why you're alive even though you are "confirmed" town? Because not only are you helping the mafia with your voting, but you're also a natural target once VE flips red. Kei was onto it. There was also the newb mafia meta read on me. If you dont trust me on it, trust town Mattchew who called him out on it. VE is playing reckless on purpose because a red flip from him was supposed to point us towards other targets (you, for example) than his real scum buddies. More? I'm a Blue role. Good night. Don't claim blue and then leave buddy. If you are going to claim, claim properly or not at all. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 16 2012 08:53 Z-BosoN wrote: Wtf kreb? If you are going to claim blue you gotta be more convincing than that. Crumbs? Now that you claimed do you have anything to add? Or did you just claim for the hell of it? Spill the beans bro. Why the fuck did you claim anyways, it's not like the whole town is against you. It feels shit being tunnelled as a townie. I can completely empathise with him. But this blue play is just bad. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 16 2012 09:01 Z-BosoN wrote: probably a vet? Would explain why he's not saying it and help explain why there were no nks. Is there even a point speculating? He will likely come back in 12 hours or so and explain the claim. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 16 2012 09:30 iamperfection wrote: because as long as he speaks in riddles my vote will stay on him. But im pretty sure i know what he is going to claim and i think we have a good chance of winning if I'm right. How about you not talk in riddles and tell us? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 16 2012 17:38 Kreb wrote: And god damn it Shiao, why you have to be so useless? I was ready to move you off my possible scum list and then you go afk at the perfect time. As of now theres still possibilities of DP, Shiao or risk as the 3rd scum. I see many of you group me with a bunch of people as potential scum. Do you have any evidence or a case on why this is so? I think it would be better for town that, instead of lumping several people in as scummy, you actually decide on your top scum read and build a solid case on them. Kreb are you now back flipping on VE? do you believe VE is scum? Do you have a breadcrumb to support your Vet claim? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 16 2012 20:05 Kreb wrote: Well, he's been very contributory and open with his reads imo. To a way higher extent than the other three I mentioned. Is there a possibility? Sure, a really slim fucking one. And in that case hats off to ZB for amazing play. But there is absolutely nothing pointing that way atm. Feel free to make cases to convince me though. I tunnelled ZB for 3 pages and He I. It would be anti town to tunnell him more than that. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 16 2012 20:15 Kreb wrote: I dont see the anti-town play in continuing if you still believe him to be scum. Right now though, he should in no way be your main concern if you're town. Either you think Im full of shit and should immediately place your vote on me. Or you dont, and then you should look towards VE. I have my ideas (and they're changing semi-frequently) on who the last scum is. But im not gonna get into a DP vs Shiao vs risk discussion since thats absolutely irrelevant right now. If you believe the scum team to be Me+ZB+X, get on me. If you believe it to be VE+ZB+X, get on VE. ZB is not your highest priority atm. Feel free to share your overall reads though. I'd be interested in that. I put 3 as town, 2 as scum, 3 as unsure. Who would you put as town/scum/unsure? Yourself and Iamperfection are my top town reads. VE is a fucking nightmare. Coag is town based on a very questionable check claim by viscera eyes. So he is unknown. Sloosh and risk have been AFK as has Shiao but Shiao's willingness to jump on my wagon is SCummy as shit. I am reading XXVIII and ZB's meta in that game. and it seems to largely match up with his current play. So I am not as certain as I was that he is in fact scum but I still feel he may be. Bleh. This game is hard. It is convoluted as fuck and the setup speculation has made a a mess with my reads. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
The only thing that has kept VE alive despite the weight of the evidence against him is Increasingly silly setup speculation. In any of my newbie games he would have been lynched. He spent the best part of 2 days tunnelling townie kreb on the flimsiest reasoning ever (oh no you post less in your third ever game). I am jack of meta and set-up speculation being used in increasingly ridiculous fashion to save VE. when applying Okham's Razor it says VE is scum. ##Vote Viscera Eyes Reference: Z-B's and Krebs Cases. Keirathi on VE. BC on VE. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 17 2012 08:19 iamperfection wrote: yes My role deals with priming indviduals. I wont get into details but at one point in the game i had a prime on coagulation. I would use the word prime or primarly to show my targets. also at one point i had a prime on ve. You may not know who my prime or primes are on now and i did not bread crumb my most recent moves. As you can guess being primed is not good and can lead to your death since i primed only people i thought might be scum. So your a mad hatter with potentially multiple bombs. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
In before set up speculation. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 17 2012 09:53 risk.nuke wrote: Darth, It's not that simple. Look at it from Visceras persective if scum. Fakeclaiming detective at that point would have be stunningly retarded. From counterclaims to suspicions. The risks are high everywhere and the gain little. And my instincts tell me viscera is town. Look at the state of the game if VE is scum. Confusion is rampant. We have spent the greater part of our time since the Kush flip on retarded setup speculation. And people still don't want to lynch VE. Add onto that his reactions when Pressured By BC and then when Pressured By Kush. Shitting up the thread the first time and then OMGUS and tunnelling kreb for two days. The only reason VE isn't pushing for a kreb mislynch right now is that he was fortunate enough to have a blue claim. So if VE was scum he would have wrought 3 mislynches. Mass confusion. And rampant setup speculation at the cost of people finding him suspicious and then not lynching him for 2 cycles? Seems worth it to me. Seems like we should have fucking lynched him yesterday instead of mattchew. But you know. I tried that. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 17 2012 10:25 VisceraEyes wrote: DP...ypu're wrong. Well. Thanks I guess. But that is hardly going to sway me. And your reaction to the wagon on you is quite telling. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
If the only way VE can be thought of is town is through assumptions and setup speculation he clearly isn't town. If he is town I have no rational explanation for his behaviour, the state of the thread. WTF happened to kush etc. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 17 2012 13:03 Coagulation wrote: I fucking hate you guys Right coag. Like you weren't calling him scum all day. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 17 2012 13:07 Hapahauli wrote: How on earth did VE get lynched... Hapa. Game is not over GTFO <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 17 2012 13:09 ShiaoPi wrote: Lololololo dafuq Yeah you are loving this aren't you scum | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 17 2012 13:12 Coagulation wrote: dp and zbos are scum LOL are you high? We tunnelled each other like crazy. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 06:23 iamperfection wrote: what you think of darth punk and zbos guys that have had a lot of activity and now all of sudden seem to have disappeared today. Maybe like a rational human being he thinks I live in australia and only just woke up. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
GLHF GO TOWN!!!! <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
<3 you ZB | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 13:11 strongandbig wrote: holy crap mafia won despite free lynches of two very good players, wow although that coroner role is pretty ridic Yeah that kush frame screwed town over pretty badly. It was really really lucky. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 13:12 strongandbig wrote: oh wait nm he was actually town? LMAO. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 13:14 strongandbig wrote: wait holy crap mafia won despite free lynches of two very good players AND completely forgetting to send in NKs or role actions the night before the end of the game?!?! town T_T To be fair I think the missing KP in addition to the kush frame just confused town beyond recovery. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 13:52 Risen wrote: Only because they're idiots. The missing KP had 0 relevance on anything. It was useless speculation. What idiotic fucking scum team would give up 2 night kills to frame someone? Edit: I think town from day 3 onwards just decided they didn't want to read the thread. Reading is too hard, let's just make the most retarded cases we can and run with it. Effort is for people who actually want to win. YES! Let's fucking lynch the cop claim with no counterclaim. The stupidest thing I've ever seen. On par with VE getting lynched as a doc claim with no counterclaim day 1 of some mafia I forget. Absolutely horrible. Double Edit: I pointed it out in ObsQT but DP was pretty much openly claiming scum in thread and everyone was just lalala Kreb vs VE. And what a bad hatter claim. What the hell possessed you to claim when you were potentially the ONLY thing left that could result in town victory if the lynch flipped town? Triple Edit: Kreb hopefully you realize how bad you played and take this opportunity to fix your play. LOL risen. You were so wrong in OBS QT even with additional information from marv. Knowing VE's Alignment. Knowing what happened to the KP. You only got close with me and even then were off with Kreb and ZB until BC gave you the answers. Give town a break. The situation was confusing as anything. VE was far more disruptive than pro-town at the end. And despite a multitude of advantages the reads in the QT weren't very good. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 13:58 Risen wrote: Also, gg scum. I gave you shit for it in obs QT, but letting a horrible town tear itself apart is a legitimate strategy, and it's actually a really good one in hindsight. Gg. It wasn't just 'letting' town tear itself apart. Did anyone notice that I had to contrive a reason to Unvote the person I was bussing and vote VE so that at 4:4 mattchew would be lynched rather than Shiao whom we need alive in order to roleblock? Do you think town would have voted VE if we did not push the wagon whilst simultaneously opposing it? It's all well and good to say every played badly etc. But I think it is being simplifying and diminishing the actual thought and effort behind the play. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:06 Risen wrote: When you outed yourself as scum I would have been all over you. Also, once Kreb was pressured by me in-game he would have claimed, z-bo would have been pressured next, he claims. No counterclaims. They don't get lynched. Easy town victory if I'm still alive. I'm upset b/c Marv is still undefeated as scum. Time to start drinking. Edit: I take the easy part back. In all likelihood the see me claim paramedic then lynch me b/c they're just that bad. Lynching the cop claim. What a joke lol Except before that you would have been pushing several mislynches based on your reads in the QT. How many times did you say kreb was scum? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:08 Risen wrote: You mean when you outed yourself as scum and the thread was too bad to catch it? Yup. Quit calling town bad when despite a plethora of informational advantages your scum team was 1/4. I am not getting into a flame war with you. I just feel it is bad manner and diminishes the game. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:04 Keirathi wrote: This game was extremely frustrating. GG. Fuck me sideways. E: <3 DP, too bad I couldn't get anyone else to follow me onto you Yeah ZB had the same trouble. <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:13 Risen wrote: Alrighty I'll be civil. You guys did fantastic, but would you mind responding to my most recent post? And thanks for hosting. Paramedic has to be the most fun role I've ever gotten Edit: Quoting since my post went to the next page T_T I mean really, that's all it comes down to. You almost have to deliberately not read the thread to lynch someone without a counterclaim. VE made it very easy to lynch him. Did you read his defense at the end of the day? | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:18 Risen wrote: He needed a defense? The only defense he needed was "there is no counterclaim". What else does he need there? You are forgetting that he only had 1 bad read. His other two could have been easily faked by scum. If he had not checked MMToss it would not have happened. And VE was scummy enough that people thought that no cop would counter claim him even if he was fake claiming. If VE had been Townie looking enough and actually provided resistance to his own lynch I doubt it would have happened. If VE had not checked the one role in the game scum could be able to fake IMMEDIATLY AFTER HIS INVESTIGATION WAS 100% wrong. It would never have happened. You make it sound very simple. But without an obs QT and with these particular circumstances I can't fault town for voting VE. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
I doubt you could have lynched me at that point even if you both pushed it. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:27 HiroPro wrote: evaluate a claim on its circumstance and the play of the individual. otherwise you end up with situations like prplhz in NMM II riding to victory on an uncontested cop claim. Now the corollary is that no one should ever lynch a blue claim just because "I wouldn't claim like this". Exactly and the circumstances in this situation matched up perfectly with a VE fake claim. Added to the fact he survived 2 nights after he claimed which is incredibly risky scum play. It is not as black and white as Risen is making out to be IMO. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:28 Z-BosoN wrote: Haha, I'll quote this sad sad post again: I basically gave up when despite me writing 2 full cases, making extensive posts on him, and being insistent as fuck that he was scum, nobody seemed to find him scummy, not even you (you did so after I gave up, basically). So I just figured I was making a bad read and moved on I don't like fighting ZB. Let's make up <3. That being said. After our Fight several people thought you looked scummier than me. It was actually after your cases that I made the most mistakes and looked scummiest from what I can gather. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:35 HiroPro wrote: No they did not. VE fake claiming to lead a lynch on kush made very little sense. Survival is not a strong indication of guilt. It is just something that should be considered. If people had carefully read VE's play in the beginning of the game and if they had looked at his play around the claim in relation to the way that he has claimed blue in other games, they should have realized that he was probably town. When BC flipped third party, people should have immediately disregarded what he had said before about VE's claim not making sense and instead focused only on BC's last post, which clearly indicated that he considered VE to be town. Yes. I agree. But the point is that the situation wasn't so clear cut as for it to be unfathomable. If it was. He would never have been mislynched and town probably wins. That being said, none of this would have happened without a clutch Kush frame. hehe. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:37 ShiaoPi wrote: Boson and Keir I was with you all the time!! Really I dont understand how that baddy did not get lynched xD <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 14:40 Z-BosoN wrote: Problem was, I actually engaged in the flame war. So people started reading it as: bleh just two townies fighting each other. But dude, the comment he made regarding "me milking town cred" was in NO WAY townie. Also, kush was obviously acting differently, yet DP didn't comment on that. In the other game, he actually unvoted the flammable scum kush as town, despite kush being scum. This was a very VERY strong tell, because I know his meta, but DP flamed it away pretty nicely. And then he used his own "trying to setup on a mislynch" argument against me, this was about the most WTF thing I had ever heard. But again, people weren't taking me or him seriously and just dismissed it as two townies gnawing against each other and didn't bother reading much into it. That was so much fun. When Perfection came in and voted for you at the end I lol'd. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
| ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 15:45 VisceraEyes wrote: slOosh and ZBos with a DP/Shiao kicker if I was wrong about Kush, which as I said, I didn't think was the case. DP you fucking smashed me - you zeroed in on my weakness (penchant for setup speculation when shit goes wrong, tendency to lose my shit) and nailed me to the wall with it at the exact right moment. I attribute this loss to your craftiness as much as if not more than I blame apathetic, non-reading townies for it. Which is a lot. So good job. Thanks. <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 16:58 Kreb wrote: Haha, I feel the opposite. :p Last game I told you I thought mafia deserved it because mafia was better and town wasnt getting many read right. And I told you you should feel good. This game I dont feel like it was anywhere near as clear that mafia > town. I feel 100% shafted by the framer, thats a part of the game and I dont mind it, but I dont feel mafia won due to their good play. At the end of the game I had Sloosh, you and Shiao down as the most likely team with Sloosh being very clear (risk was so bitter it would require quite a good mafia to play that bitter I-know-best town role so I pinned him down as town towards the end). Yea I know its easy to say afterwards but thats how it was. Overall Im satisfied by my play and by town play compared to last game. This was a "lucky" framing win as opposed to last game imo, where mafia was straight up better. I don't think That the frame was entirely 'luck'.There was ground work put into the kush frame. Several people were casting suspicion on him to the point where it was a fairly reasonable choice to check him. It is not as much as 1/15 chance to frame someone as it is creating and identifying situations in which a frame would be useful. Like we were tossing up between a Coag/Kush frame. It turns out coag was checked the night before kush. So it is was less 'luck' than you think. This set-up was heavily town favoured also. So if anyone should be complaining about set-up and roles it is scum. we had GF and Framer that messed with a singular cop and a roleblocker. Town had Watcher, Watcher, Paramedic, Paramedic, Veteran, Madhatter, Cop 5 investigative roles, 3 night kill stopping roles. and a Conditional Vig I feel very satisfied with my play this game. -Edit apart from missing the night kills like a newb | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:30 risk.nuke wrote: Paramedics aren't investigative roles. You what? -edit- How are they not investigative roles? If you catch scum you die and are instaconfirmed. if not you medic save and have a confirmed townie.... | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:31 Kreb wrote: Well I didnt mean you randomly hit right (hence "lucky" not lucky), if you had good reason to frame him then kudos. But I just kinda mean you hit bullseye with one move which gave you the game. Had you not done it, I think town would have won. Partially due the double paramedics of course, which definitely would have been reasonable by mafia to blame the loss on in that case. As I said, too many too good roles means roles win games not good play. This time a mafia role got you the win imo. Less quantity of roles and less powerful roles please :< As I said earlier. Even with the frame if VE had handled it better, been townier etc. Town still wins. It was not as if it was 'oh we framed kush GG.' There was a lot more to it then that. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:35 Kreb wrote: Oh and I agree the setup was town favored. But the reason you overcame that wasnt because of sick mafia play where you tricked us all. Nope but we put a lot off effort into achieving and then facilitating that last day when it was Kreb vs Viscera Eyes. And that was all we needed to do to fulfill our wincon. We didn't care if we were outed. It didn't matter. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:41 Kreb wrote: Oh well, I'll drop it :p I'll probably just come off as bitter, which I really am not. Im quite satisfied with my play and as I said dont mind losing to whats clearly a part of the game. And someone reply how BC could know my role! :< BC could answer that best no doubt. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:49 Kreb wrote: I think I'll enjoy mafia play much more than town play in this game :p MODS GIVE ME MAFIA ROLES PLEASE Heh. I much prefer town although I have played mafia more than town. It is harder and tiring and often difficult to stay motivated with. There is a reason sloosh and Shiao were afk. Hehe. Playing mafia is just like playing town. Except you have certain restrictions and everything you say is fake and feels forced. at least that's how I view it. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 20:19 kushm4sta wrote: This game made me angry and sad. Sup Kush. I was the framer <3 | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP. You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself. The cases were not that strong. Not enough to get me lynched anyway. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:30 marvellosity wrote: The cases should have been strong enough to get you lynched, but town were busy derping elsewhere. Well you know you aren't going to be lynched when you asked to be bussed hard and proceed to do so and then you get like 2 votes and one is your own team mate.... | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:30 marvellosity wrote: The cases should have been strong enough to get you lynched, but town were busy derping elsewhere. edit: DP, you definitely played the best, and as town I'd have lynched you only after lynching the other two, but the cases + your implied knowledge (you went crazy in scumQT at your own slip remember) were lynchable as well. Don't you mean iffy? I thought I had slipped worse than I did. I was also frustrated because sloosh and shiao were really absent at that stage and I felt I had to carry them. But the slip wasn't as bad as I thought and they both picked up their activity. sloosh in particular. As to flip flopping on kush. That is the opposite of what a scum would do. Which is why I did it. Who in their right mind would try and derail a quiet town lynch as scum. The scummy thing was trying to lynch Z-Boson by accusing him of setting up a mislynch off the back of a kush green flip when that is exactly what I was doing to him. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
At the end of every game you are going to experience similar things though. It is devolution of the thread. Scum weed out all the strong and active players and you are left with those who don't really care about the game for one reason or another. My last two scum games people have blamed town for being bad etc. When scum win. But the plan as scum is for all those good players to be gone by that point. So I guess what I am saying is the state of endgame towns are inevitable. Unless everyone is really super active every single game. | ||
DarthPunk
Australia10819 Posts
On October 20 2012 11:08 Shady Sands wrote: how can I improve? Play more like you played in NMMXXIV. That was your best game IMO. | ||
| ||