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Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII
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It takes #/2 rounded up votes to lynch somebody. In case of a tie, the person who got there first gets the prize. Mathematically, this means that with 12 players, you only need 6 votes to lynch someone since you do not round whole numbers, only fractions. Is that the rule's intent?I'm suspecting that the rule is implying a majority lynch based on the "rounded up" statement. Given my suspicion is correct, the formula should be either ((#/2)+1) rounded down, or ((#+1)/2) rounded up. Those formulae all require more than half the votes in order to lynch someone, so as to define a majority. F.ex. 7 votes with 12 players, 6 votes with 10-11 players, 5 votes with 8-9 players, etc. /end math nitpick. (I'm suspecting this is because you game hosts are all copy/pasting the rules from a template somewhere, a template that is in itself ambigous). Edit: Although I suppose that's why you added the "in the case of a tie" part. Which would make my suspicions incorrect and my argument pretty silly. So if that's the case, just ignore me! Edit2: On the other hand, using the rule as suggested in the OP could lead to a scenario where a day starts with 3 scum and 3 town, where the only way for town to win is to "instavote" a mafia member(and where mafia can do the same, but with the advantage of a QT during the night leading up to that scenario). Is a mafia game generally not considered over once town no longer outnumber mafia during the day? I'm not familiar enough with the reasoning for the different lynching rules, so I'm asking more out of curiosity than anything else. | ||
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Although to be fair, I was just extremely bored. I don't think anyone would have noticed unless that very situation came up.  | ||
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On September 22 2012 07:26 thrawn2112 wrote: Obviously because that doesn't include a math formula? :Dwhat is wrong with just saying majority But to be completely honest I don't care for the required number of votes either way. Initially I just thought that the same thing had occured as in my last mafia(but in those rules there was an example that directly contradicted the rule, which made the rules hard to understand). I didn't realize that your "in the case of a tie" addendum took care of that until I had posted my initial unedited message. Then upon closer inspection I realized that the 3 vs 3 scenario would be pretty awkward, since it would allow town to win in such a scenario(which felt weird to me). I would be completely fine with the rule as initially stated, but with an addendum that town loses when they no longer outnumber scum during the day. Since having an entire 48 hour cycle just to wait for the guy that mafia voted on to get lynched would be pretty silly. One could argue that the rules suggest that scum has already won, but as stated the rules only say that scum wins when they outnumber town or nothing can prevent that from happening. With a rule like that, it becomes a race to the F5 button every new day, since there is a way to prevent mafia from outnumbering town, by all town through some miracle instantly voting a mafia member. This of course requires that all town already know during the night who the remaining mafia players are, but in such a case, the only deciding factor left in the game is which faction can the most quickly spend all their votes after the day post. Edit: Also, with the formula you have now, the "in the case of a tie" addendum is no longer needed, since there can never be a tie that could result in a lynch due to the majority requirement. I'd say "in the case of a tie" is more something akin to plurality lynch, where you don't need a majority and where ties would be more likely(due to the possibility of votes spread across more than 2 candidates). But then you'd get back to requiring a rule to prevent the silly F5 scenario I posited above. | ||
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On September 22 2012 07:38 thrawn2112 wrote: Like I said, I'm bored. :Dhmm i was trying to troll prplhz and not you with that question but damn lol | ||
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On September 22 2012 07:42 marvellosity wrote: That's what I was about to do! Then I found a new mafia game to distract me! I blame prpl! go make yourself useful in my obsQT xD  | ||
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On September 22 2012 19:05 Blazinghand wrote: But in your second example, while C was the first one to have the exact end vote, A could have had 2 votes before him. Assuming C and E voted for A before A and B voted for C. If taking your example to the extreme case, a possible awkward scenario such as the following could happen:The rule I use in my OPs is this: Pretty unambiguous imo. I don't run plurality, but if I did I'd use this wording: Which would work pretty well. If you're not in favor of double lynching you could do this: A and B votes for C(2 votes), then C and D vote for A(2 votes), at this point C is set to be lynched. But then E could vote for C, putting him at three votes and then retract his vote, suddenly making A the one to be lynched even though nothing has really change from before E. In fact, the only thing that happened was that briefly, one more person was willing to vote for C, but instead A gets lynched? | ||
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Edit: And by lurkers, I mean people lurking through reading, not people who plan on lurking while in-game! | ||
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On September 26 2012 15:55 DarthPunk wrote: That would be all well and good if I could actually find it!Blazinghand wrote an AMAZING guide also. You should all Definitely check it out. Got a link? :p | ||
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Thanks! | ||
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So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. | ||
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FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously... There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. | ||
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On September 28 2012 15:36 Z-BosoN wrote: I don't care who you've played with. You make it a point to say your view on lurkers. You defend him for absolutely no reason, when his views implicitly contradict yours. If you were townie, I wouldn't think this to be a priority for you. I am not focused on lurker discussion, I am focused on the inconsistency you've presented. The issue of "Lurker policy" is not what is at hand. The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. It feels extremely forced right now, as townies are supposedly scouring the thread for blood. That's why the FOS. Regarding your "case", it seems to me like the only think you've got going is my general usefulness. And I already said it in form of a question, but now I'll answer it more bluntly so you can't dismiss it: I am instigating discussion. Read all my posts and see if that's what I'm trying to accomplish. Z-BosoN, you say you are instigating discussion, yet you attack debears for sharing his views on your attack against SDM? In fact, you go as far as to say that debears is in the wrong for even joining the discussion? I find his concerns quite legitimate since your attack on SDM's introduction post seem quite forced to me. Thus I can perfectly understand how he would call you out for it, yet you explain yourself with an inconsistency? Even worse, you are essentially encouraging a player to not say anything at all on a subject while that's actually very good for town! Debears defending someone - and I'd like to state for the record that I do not agree that that was what he was doing, it seems much more to me like he was attacking you than defending SDM/kush. Him taking a stance like that is contrary to what you would like us to believe actually very pro-town, since if/when one of them flips, he is on record as saying that. Your own argument however, essentially summed up with the following lines from the post quoted above: The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. It feels extremely forced right now, as townies are supposedly scouring the thread for blood. That's why the FOS. That argument right there is what I'm talking about, you essentially say that he should have kept his mouth shut instead of calling you out, yet at the same time saying town should be out for blood, which is exactly what he has been doing in my view. So in essence, you are actually encouraging people to not chime in on things they find odd. Intentional or not, that's just very anti-town behaviour. Also, you might say that debears did the same thing I am not accusing you of in the following quote: On September 28 2012 14:43 debears wrote: The difference here is that debears is just pointing out that he thinks Darth is rushing to a conclusion and that he shouldn't tunnel vision so hard. You, Z-BosoN used the "let him defend himself!" argument almost as a way to shut debears up.@darth ... I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. I find that very scummy, so FoS Z-BosoN. In particular, I would like you to clarify why you felt the need to bash SDM's introductory post. It does not strike me as very odd that one would like there to be more than just lurker policy to talk about after declaring that he is going to be away from the thread for quite some time(sleep + uni would probably mean something like 15+ hours). Is it so wrong to wish for there to be other things to discuss? It seems to me you are just jumping on anything you can find in order to try and look town. Give us some real analysis, give us some proper motivations behind your posting that isn't contradictory. | ||
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On September 28 2012 20:13 kushm4sta wrote: Like I said, actions speak louder than words. I'm inclined to believe you if you actually start acting pro-town but if you keep prioritising your own life over the town's well being, I'll go ahead and straight up lynch you just like that.@alsn chill i will scum hunt but atm im busy defending this douchery | ||
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On September 28 2012 20:54 DarthPunk wrote: That he is inconsistent and accuses people without backing it up with proper reasoning.So. Without a wall of text. What exactly is your case on Z- Boson? | ||
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Also, you might say that debears did the same thing I am not accusing you of in the following quote: Should obviously be: Also, you might say that debears did the same thing I am accusing you of in the following quote: | ||
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Summary of my case: I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts. Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons. | ||
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The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. What I'm opposing here is the idea that debears did something inherently wrong in calling out Z-BosoN. It's like he's implying that SDM/kush are let off the hook by debears calling out Z-BosoN. I think Z-BosoN(or anyone else for that matter) should be perfectly capable of pointing out later that he(we) does not consider SDM/kush to be off the hook regardless of whether or not debears is accusing him of something. | ||
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On September 28 2012 21:14 DarthPunk wrote: Uh, what? For what? I admit I haven't looked all that closely on debears posting since I mostly looked at his filter to try and figure out what Z-BosoN was referring to, but as far as I can see he has done three things so far, he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find that a reasonable thing to say, although not overwhelmingly useful other than as a reminder to you that there are other players in this game(which you have obviously noted by now since you are questioning me!) So. Why have you not FoS'd debears then? His other two arguments of note are against Z-BosoN which is basically the conversation line which I base my case upon, as well as calling out Djodref as someone who posts a lot but says little. The latter also seems perfectly reasonable from where I'm standing and as you must have noticed, I'm against Z-BosoN on the subject of the former. | ||
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On September 28 2012 21:35 DarthPunk wrote: I do not agree that that's what Z-BosoN was trying to do, but fair enough, you are allowed to draw your own conclusions. I already explained in my initial case what I thought the difference was, but I'll state it again. The main difference to me was that debears seemingly wanted to stop us from completely tunneling kush and only kush, which at the time seemed like a stupidly easy case for scum to sheep onto with low/no risk. Many of us know kush posts very scummy, there's no denying that. This also means that it would be very detrimental for town to tunnel vision him too hard since there's a good chance he's just being his normal self.No. That is not what he said. He said that debears shouldn't defend Kush and SDM. You know why? Because if they are mafia and a townie is defending them they are less inclined to defend themselves and therefore we have less to go on. Z - Boson does not say he shouldn't be called out or that people shouldn't make cases. He is calling out someone for doing something scummy. The rest is your interpretation, which is somewhat of a stretch. Debears has done something similar. And yet you don't FoS debears. Debears calls me out for trying to consolidate town onto my top scum read. Something which is clearly pro-town. He soft defends Kush and tries to shut down the discussion 'Until he can defend himself' And you say Z -BoSoN tried to limit discussion?? Also your interpretation is just that. And is not one I share. That being said we should of course not just let him off the hook. If kush does not want to play in a manner which helps town, there's no reason to just forgive him and move on to someone else. But like I already explained in my post about kush(and that you now acknowledge yourself) spending all of D1 arguing about him would get us nowhere if he flips green, and him flipping scum based on only meta and the fact that he used the word "townie" instead of "player" - while possible - does not seem all that likely to me. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I still feel that Z-BosoN was acting in a manner which had a much more "bullying" tone than what debears was. As such I would like him to explain himself before I let it go. | ||
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On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote: Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective.I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). | ||
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On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum)I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious.The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. | ||
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On September 28 2012 23:10 Z-BosoN wrote: Fine, I'll withdraw my concerns about your attack on debears. Given what you yourself and DP has said I admit that I might have oversimplified my initial read on your motivations.Alsn, you are getting a very wrong impression of what I'm trying to do. Of course initially my attacks will seem forced, but it's day one, where there are few posts to go on. You are also stretching a lot of your interpretations on my posts. No, I "essentially" said that In my opinion it made more sense for him to attack SDM rather than to defend him. I also said that his defense felt very "forced" and unnecessary as a townie. You can agree and you can not agree, but saying I told him to "shut up" and am discouraging conversation is indeed a stretch. What the fuck? I bashed it because I wanted him to respond to it, and I did not like his post. Again, you are stretching. He gave off the feeling that he loathed lurker policy discussion, and stated implicitly that people shouldn't lurk. I agree with both of these statements, but I don't like the way he said it (i.e. "fuck lurker policy, I hate it so much that I'll be gone for the next 15 hours"), and thus I questioned him for it. I didn't make a case, I didn't even make a FOS. I don't know why people are bitching so much about an attack against someone who said that he has to "go to the university". The underlined part is a bunch of crap. The "contradiction" you spotted is completely far-fetched, basing itself on the fact that I wanted debear to shut up, which as I've explained above is also a stretch. If your case against me is what you call "real analysis", then I could have the time of my life making cases, as I can just twist everything people say and use it as arguments for a case. I still don't find your attack on SDM to be justified though. Simply disliking the way someone states something seems like a very odd reason to attack someone. Especially since I still find what he said to be very reasonable. In your final paragraph you say you don't like the way he said it, yet when you explain what you thought he said, you are basically bending his words. He never said he would leave because he hated talking about lurker policy. He said he had to leave(for that long) and that it was his hope that there were other things to talk about. Those two things are very different and the latter is not at all unreasonable to me. He's in a time zone where that statement makes perfect sense, why would you jump on it so aggressively? | ||
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On September 29 2012 14:24 Z-BosoN wrote: Just now caught up and saw this post. Really? I Said I'd be back about 12 hours before lynch, I've been reading the thread for an hour which makes that statement pretty much exactly right. But your own comment on the other hand is from before I even said I'd be waking up and checking the thread. You are not making yourself look any better than when I first called you out for grasping at straws.Alsn has gone awfully quiet... Will be posting some pretty substantial posts(I suspect, based on what I've read so far) within the next couple of hours. | ||
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Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". | ||
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On September 29 2012 18:21 Djodref wrote: Right, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. @Alsn I also voted for Kush for your information That just confirms it though, from my point of view there are scum pushing for his lynch. For everyone else out there, unless me, Lesrah and kush are the scumteam, there are scum among the voters. | ||
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On September 29 2012 11:22 DarthPunk wrote:No. This is wrong. I did not FoS people for not agreeing with me. Firstly. Both of those players had also FoS'd you. Secondly there are people who have not agreed with me who I have not looked at. I FoS'd debears for soft defending you after he FoS'd you. I Was suspicious of Alsn for completely twisting/ stretching the truth and at times straight out lying in order to Facilitate his reads. His reads form his arguments rather than his arguments forming his reads. Really? You're still acting like my arguments were some massive conspiracy? Using the words "truth" and "lying" in the context of D1 mafia is quite ridiculous. What do you know about the truth anyway? Or what do you know about me lying or not? Where did I lie? What's this "truth" that you claim to know? Townspeople do not have any information, as such we are forced to try and interpret people's motivations and intentions. We can't base our arguments on true information until we actually get some(flips, blue confirms, etc.). I'm keeping my eye on you, but for now I'll let it slide as poor wording since you have been showing pretty pro-town behaviour with regards to the rest of the game. | ||
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On September 29 2012 19:19 DarthPunk wrote:It was posted in the thread where you lied. 1) The truth is that Z- Boson never pushed Kush. and you said that he did. This was explained to you. I would think you were just not reading the thread but I find that doubtful. Towns people have a ton of info already. Stop presenting your subjective arguments and assumptions as more than what they are: useless. Honestly. For all you complain and talk about not focusing on Kush and looking for other scum reads, and despite promising to do so. All you have done is defend someone defending Kush. Soft defend Kush. And post a terrible case on Z -Boson that made yourself look scummier than it made him look. On top of all this your recent argument on voting numbers is WIFOM. 2)Stop complaining about other people scum hunting and do some yourself. 1) I went back through his filter and checked, I didn't realise he never pushed kush. That being said, that was never part of my case against him anyway. The only time I even mention that is when I'm trying to show why a hypothetical scenario of everyone tunnelling kush is bad. But I'll admit that I was wrong about him attacking kush. If that's the only "lie" you think I committed then I consider this matter closed. There needs to actually be intent when lying, speaking an untruth is only a lie if you know that it's an untruth. 2) I am, I just haven't posted my findings yet because I'm not sure enough about anything so chill the fuck out. At least look at some time stamps before you go all aggro. | ||
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Given that I have more information than all the townies that have voted so far(I know my own alignment), I can of course conclude that there must be scum that voted for kush, regardless if kush is scum or not. So could Lesrah if he turns out to be town(but as things are looking now, he will probably be replaced/modkilled so he wouldn't participate in this lynch regardless). Do you even know what WIFOM is? I did not arbitrarily keep arguing back and forth, I made a logical conclusion from the information available. | ||
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Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta | ||
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On September 29 2012 21:15 DarthPunk wrote: Ah, sorry, I must have missed a row there, I remember reading that but thinking "oh, that must be a typo, he must mean 'without', not with". :/Seems Like Z - Boson was right in this point. Bleh, that makes most of my arguing today pretty shitty, I wish I had seen that earlier. I was acting under the premise that you were totally in the wrong by calling me a liar, but now it makes perfect sense. It wasn't a lie though, just a mistake, but I admit you had no way of knowing that. | ||
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On September 29 2012 21:18 DarthPunk wrote: Get over yourself, I said I like logic, not that I don't have emotions or the capacity to be swayed by them like anyone else. 0_o | ||
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I realised that my entire vote count argument falls apart if there's no compelling reason to believe kush to be town, and asking myself the following question kinda shocked me: "What has kush done for town?" I couldn't find an answer to that question, no matter how hard I looked. As such, I can't not vote for him. | ||
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On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote: I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar.I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red. He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc. This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. | ||
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That being said, this was definitely a win, I agree with the sentiment that Darth is leaning heavy town at this stage, but unfortunately we don't really have the ability to confirm anyone else. Everyone who jumped the wagon against kush after the slip could just as well be scum as town since we have no way of telling when the bussing began. The only other player who spoke out against kush with any force before the slip was Debears, and he did so in a pretty indecisive manner which neither confirms nor denies his intentions towards kush at that stage. So while I don't agree that it was the best choice at the time, I think we should be happy with the fact that Darth was as inquisitive as he was before the slip granting us the benefit of a now near confirmed townie. | ||
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On September 30 2012 05:04 Stutters695 wrote: I suppose. I didn't intend to say that it was equally damning/not damning, only that the slip(if it is one) is the same type. Using the word "townie" to describe a person if you know them to be town is in my mind the same thing as giving someone the name of the town coach, if you know that he is town.I disagree with this. Yes, it is suspicious, but not nearly as bad as Kush's. It definitely merits looking into, but compare the differences. I would reason it is equally likely to be a scum slip compared to a townie. Kush's slip called someone town (not his normal meta to refer to everyone as town) on someone he was accusing of being scum. Debears told someone to PM marv for help. Even if he was scum I think it'd be more likely that his reasoning for saying Marv isn't to tell Djo exactly who to pm as to come off as town himself by referencing that he has the town coach. Yes, I suppose there might be a few more plausible explanations for debears' statement, but either way no one can trust them since only debears knows what his intentions were, so it's a moot point. I was just a bit surprised that there hadn't been as much of an outcry about it as kush's slip. | ||
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On September 30 2012 05:37 Z-BosoN wrote: Was that a question directed to me? Or to everyone in general?I've taken a look at Alsn's lurker lists filters and found some interesting things. Out of those four, who do you think would be the third scum, assuming it's one of them? | ||
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Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me. Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone. That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way. | ||
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On September 30 2012 18:50 DarthPunk wrote: Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you.I thought you had a town read on me? But after that I am one of your scum reads and you try to build a case on me? That sort of doesn't match up with the afore mentioned town read. | ||
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If you absolutely want me to respond in more detail I will, but I don't see the town benefit in me spending a bunch of time explaining my reasons for my posting so far, since anything I say at this point could just be seen as scum excuses. I made some mistakes in my reasoning, chiefly overreacting to Darth pressuring me, but also probably overestimated how scummy Z-BosoN's early comments were. If anything, I'd rather be held responsible if I don't actually shape up from now on. | ||
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So with that out of the way, expect a big post from me sometime during the evening. | ||
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My original post included the full spoilered quotes of their conversations. Unfortunately, TL got mad at me and said something wussy about a 100000 character post limit, pfah. For that reason, sourcing of my statements are done as links. So, like I said before, I'm working under the theory that debears and Z-BosoN are either both town, or only one of them is scum. I think this because they both committed to attacking each other very early on in the game, even before it was obvious that kush was going to be lynched. They also did not stop doing this just because kush was getting lynched, which suggests to me that either both of them are convinced that it's important that people pay attention to their case, or that one of them is and the other one is just trying to defend himself. More importantly, if both of them were scum they would be drawing attention to themselves at the same time that their final teammate was getting torn to shreds, which I can not believe to be true. With that in mind I decided to look at their feud once again to see if there were any tells that one of them was more scummy than the other. First, the entire thing begins with Z-BosoN in my view completely misrepresenting what SDM said in order to throw a FoS on debears. This as some kind of response to debears initial suspicions of Z-BosoN found here. At this point I believe that was just Z-BosoN misreading SDM, and thus finding scumminess where there was none. But it leads to a lot of discussion and material for us to analyze, so that's all well and good, I'm afraid I might have misrepresented it at the time though, not taking the time to look at what happened properly in context. Debears then responds with this post where he says SDM's opinions on lurker policy was there for anyone to see a good 2 hours before Z-BosoN misrepresented him, and also that he thought Z-BosoN was being inconsistent himself(which he was and later admits to). Again, this is merely meant to illustrate that Z-BosoN's original case on debears was in fact weak. Debears should definitely not be considered scummy based on that alone. Then we have the following post where debears again very calmly and reasonably explains to Z-BosoN that he considers his case/FoS to be weak and OMGUS. I agree with that. So far, I'm finding myself exactly on the same side of the argument as I did then. Z-BosoN was clearly out of line in criticising debears. I don't think I'm entirely at fault for thinking he was "trying to shut him up" at around that time. This is also where I have joined the debate, making Z-BosoN reply to my own comments in between their feud, I think my original case has been analyzed to death though, so I won't mention it further. At this point both of them start to also focus on kush since this is around the time when DarthPunk had made his case against kush's behaviour and his slip. Z-BosoN had responded earlier to DP saying he isn't sold on it being a scum slip, but mostly just not liking the way kush was acting.(Source) Z-BosoN then posts his first major case against debears. In it, he attacks debears for perceived inconsistencies but looking at it closely, I find that most of the arguments Z-BosoN put forward are pretty weak. Mostly due to the fact that I found the posts that Z-BosoN are referencing in his case to be very reasonable and without any obvious scum motivation. Debears also addresses this case later on. Now the kush bandwagon is in full swing, both players ask kush to shape up at different stages, Z-BosoN initially, then debears when he gets back into the thread after a 5 hour gap. I don't know if this gap is significant as it did happen during debears' primetime. Which means he probably wasn't asleep but I'm unwilling to draw any conclusions at this time simply because I have no proof one way or the other. I can't find any other reason for their posting about kush at this stage other than the fact that at this point, kush was a highly uncontroversial target, most active players in the thread at this stage are all imploring kush to shape up if he is town and for good reason. Eventually, debears responds to Z-BosoN's case against him in the following post. In this post(it and Z-BosoN's eventual response are both massive, every time I read them I find out more things that are damning/exonerating about the two of them) he again actually makes a lot of sense to me, with the major thing I don't really buy being his 180 on Djodref. Especially since I don't really consider Djodref to have posted in a way that would suggest to me that he should be excused. In my mind all of the lurky players are still somewhat suspicious, and has been from the start, at the very best they are null reads, just dropping a line about coaches and then dropping the matter seems scummy to me. Also, I find the fact that debears has pretty much made no comments about anyone other than Z-BosoN and kush once the wagon was started. For all his talk about not tunnelling kush, he sure seems to be tunnelling pretty hard. Or at the very least, seems intent on defending himself more than anything else. His post with regards to the lurkers came only once Z-BosoN specifically asked him to do so. He did promise a case against me however, so I guess I'll start popping the popcorn. Finally I would like to address Z-BosoN's reply to debears final defense if I can call it that. (clicky) Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things. This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias. He has for some reason decided that debears is scum a long time ago, and now every single argument debears makes is scummy to him. I'm inclined to think Z-BosoN is town because of this, confirmation bias isn't something scum would suffer from, since they don't need to believe anything, they know. It is however not very helpful, because even if debears is scum, him defending himself against what I consider to be unjustified criticism is hardly something he can be blamed for. I would however like to see him post more about other players than Z-BosoN, and hopefully he will have time to do so now since Z-BosoN has at least seemingly decided to let things rest for a while, which I think can only be good for us. So to end this, I would like to put a FoS on debears not based on Z-BosoN's case, but based on the following points, as hinted at above.
So to sum this up, I'm thinking that Z-BosoN is town, his play is just too emotional and full of confirmation bias to me to suggest anything else and I do not think that he would or even could fake that. Debears might be scum, but I don't think we have enough proof to say that he is scummy enough to lynch D2, not yet anyway. In my mind he still has a path to redemption and I think we should at least give him that possibility as I'm not convinced that they can't both be town. Given that, my town reads right now amount to DarthPunk for obvious reason, Z-BosoN as stated above and SDM(mostly a feel read right now, but he has made sense from what I've seen so far) and I'm leaning slightly scummy on debears. That being said, I will probably spend the next couple of days focusing on the players that I have not mentioned in this thread. Mostly because at this point, I consider the debears vs Z-BosoN case closed unless something earth shattering happens. | ||
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I'll just end with the fact that I think we definitely need to focus on the people who have posted very little because I suspect there are scum to be found there. I'm just a little shocked by how little scumminess I'm reading so far but that probably just means that the people I've been focusing on aren't scum, but we'll see. I'll be checking in for another couple of hours on and off but nothing major before I sleep. | ||
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I don't have time to go over your case against me tonight but I'm not particularly worried. Is there any part of it in particular that you'd like an answer on? If so I'll address that tomorrow, otherwise I'll be spending most of my day trying to figure out the lurkier players, especially now that at least corrosion, djodref and omniscient are actually posting(yay!). | ||
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First of all the following statement: Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked. Yes, please do. Especially the QT. Just ask SDM how brilliant I was in that /obs, we were all over the place in that QT. We kept making wild accusations left, right and center and they were mostly wrong. Not until day three or something did we have the slightest clue who to suspect, and then partly due to the fact that keirathi had quoted marv and spoiled it for us. This just makes me feel like he wants to suck up to me in order to make me drop my suspicions. I also think however that debears was quite successful as scum last game. I particularly went to consider his case against thrawn, which is very similar to the way he has been constructing cases in this game. Massive posts pointing out inconsistencies and errors, but not much in the way of explaining what's so scum motivated by that. On October 01 2012 05:37 corrosion wrote: There's some content in your post, but you've been making huge cases against several people without following up on them. As far as I can see, all you have achieved is to clutter up the thread. The other person that I've seen that clutters up the thread is Alsn. I've not read his last post yet, because it's tiring to read his posts. I've not read your case on him either. Right now I don't see any town motivation for your behavior. This post by corrosion actually seems quite apt and I realize that I've probably been overestimating how useful it is to try and explain myself down to the very least detail. It strikes me that while corrosion said it in a pretty blunt way that suggests he doesn't want to read what people say, my posts could definitely have been shorting and more to the point.' Conclusion There are other things I could point to in debears case, In general I get the feeling that he is doing the exact same thing to me that he did against Z-BosoN, making massive cases where if people read the entire thing, they're bound to find something they agree with. This feels like his meta from the final parts of NMMXVII, so I'm now convinced that debears is scum. ##Vote: debears | ||
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On October 01 2012 13:37 Z-BosoN wrote: + Show Spoiler + This was one massively deluded post. I couldn't have been any clearer on my case against debears. 1)My case presented two main arguments, and one supporting argument that includes a bunch of shit that can feasibly come from a scum. Argument 1) His stance on kush after a direct FOS. Argument 2) His 180 on Djoref. I have made these both very clear in my case. You are acting as if I didn't bring up his 180 on Djoref. Your only "original" argument that could arguably mean something includes him being defensive. That's actually the one thing he has going for him, he's defended himself and still managed to make cases, more cases than you. I started answering this post topic by topic but quickly figured out that it had so much uselessness, so much pointlessness, and so much gibberish that I simply couldn't continue answering straight up. I get emotional when I feel someone is talking too much crap, but that does not automatically make my entire case based on emotion. In this post you've managed to: a) 2)give me a town read based on my "emotion" and "confirmation bias" while throwing my case to shit and then actually using one of it's main arguments. b) make a weaker case against debears, in what seems to be a weakass attempt to justify your vote c) 3)not defend yourself against one certain post I made. Are you gonna say that it's confirmation biased too? This post reeks of mafia mentality. Why? 4)You accuse me of making weak cases based on emotion and confirmation bias. You feel the need to say that this makes me townie. You are trying to discredit me, right after I've made an entire case against you. But you don't want to make it look like you are defending a high priority target like debears, so you go ahead and try to find some other things you can say against him so it can seem like you are genuinely after him. 1)And I've tried to make myself clear that those two points are one of the few points you actually make out of your massive argument with debears that I agree with from your cases. My point wasn't that your conclusion that debears was scum was necessarily incorrect, but that you've included a lot of reasons for suspecting him that was on very shaky grounds. In particular, I'm thinking about the first few exchanges between the two of you and also your need to make up a reason for why almost every single line he says is scummy when it's clear as day that not all of them are. 2)No, I chose to point out what I agree with because they were among the few things you said that actually made any sense to me whatsoever. I discredited the rest of your case against him because I felt they were based on emotion, not reality. 3)No, if you had actually read what I've said recently, I made a ton of mistakes in my reasoning during the early stages. You painted that picture quite clearly, I have nothing more to say. If people don't think it makes sense to me that I would have been suspicious of you and DP due to me thinking my original arguments were sound, then I don't know what to say. I've clarified that my scum reads D1 were you and DP, but when I spent time trying to make cases against you, I realised how grave my mistakes had been. 4)And lastly I want to comment on this and clarify that I most certainly was not trying to discredit your case against me. It points out a bunch of flaws and inconsistencies in my reasoning and as I've explained, they were caused by my mistaken belief of how early D1 transpired. I was disputing your case against debears, because honestly, it wasn't a case as much as a few good points in a massive amount of conjecture. You responded to literally everything he said and added a reason for why it could be mafia motivated. How is that not confirmation bias? To sum up, your case against me does make me look scummy. The reasons that it does though is that you and DP and others have refused to believe my claims of intent. I've stated several times that I based my original target choices on gut reads towards their posts. If you don't agree that your initial intentions for attacking debears seem convoluted at this point I don't know what to say anymore. Then the rest of my arguing that day was because of a simple misunderstanding where I had mistakenly thought you had been on Darth's side early D1 with regards to attacking kush, making me feel like you both had very scummy reasons for arguing against me. I will leave it at that, if anyone is interested in looking at my filter with those things in mind then I thank you, because I realise at this point that my filter is getting pretty damn big. If nothing else, I ask that people please read the italicized part before they jump to conclusions, although most of it I have tried to say already but it seems like people haven't noticed them. I'm getting really tired of defending myself at this point because while I haven't exactly found that I consider scummy, it's not for a lack of trying. | ||
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If nothing else, I ask that people please read the italicized part before they jump to conclusions, although most of it I have tried to say already but it seems like people haven't noticed them. I'm getting really tired of defending myself at this point because while I haven't exactly found that I consider scummy, it's not for a lack of trying. Should be: If nothing else, I ask that people please read the italicized part before they jump to conclusions, although most of it I have tried to say already but it seems like people haven't noticed them. I'm getting really tired of defending myself at this point because while I haven't exactly found much that I consider scummy, it's not for a lack of trying. | ||
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I'd like you to respond to RemedySC's questions, but I'd also like to ask you about the following quote: On September 29 2012 01:46 Omniscient4983 wrote: What made you suspect that stutters suddenly jumped the kush bandwagon? At that point there wasn't even much of a wagon to jump onto. Yes, Darth had been pressuing kush pretty hard, but other than that people had been mostly cautious at that stage. I would argue that Stutters and SDM actually caused the wagon.@stutters I'm inclined to agree here. Seems like you kind of jumped on the anti-Kush bandwagon without much thought. Admittedly, I didn't like his early play either, but I'm interested in hearing what you have to say concerning it. | ||
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On October 01 2012 23:48 debears wrote: That was an obs QT. I was commenting as an observer, not as a player. If you really wanted to know how I play you should check my last actual game. I never committed to anyone as scum in that game either, for the same reasons as now. I am not confident at all that I have found any scum yet. The only one's that are giving me scum vibes are you and some of the lurky posters, but having gone through their filters I keep coming up with any compelling reasons that I can't hand wave away in my head as "this guy is probably new".Alsn, you misunderstood what I was stating in my case against you. You have yet to make any real contribution to the thread. In the qt, you were making a scum team list constantly. You have yet to do that. The most extent you've gone so far is "debears looks scummy" up until the time you vote for me. Right now I can only go on the fact that I find you scummier than anyone else, but I'm actually quite scared of the possibility that some of the people I think are town might really just be clever scum. I'm not all that convinced about you to be honest but if I had to wager I'd give you flipping scum something like a 40% chance. I need more information and for now I'd be content with confirming your alignment. | ||
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Anyway, I'd like to address your point against me Shady. On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: This analysis makes no sense to me. You say the lynch on debears is going too easily because no one objects to it? What's different about the debears lynch compared to the lynch against me? As far as I can tell if we were allowed to lynch two people, both me and debears would be dead in an instant. I've even pointed out several times that debears has been getting unfairly attacked several times, something which is in line with your own conclusion.So at this point I have a moderate scum read on Alsn and strong town read on Darthpunk. I'm still not sold on Debears yet. Every time people push him as a lynch and everyone just nods along and agrees (this is based on a cursory ready through 30+ pages of filter late at night, so pardon me if I'm totally wrong about this), I get a wierd feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why? Because scum is already down one, there is almost zero chance they'd accede easily to a second consecutive bus. So if everyone is nodding along on Debears, and scum isn't going to roll over and bus again, then, WIFOM as this reasoning is, it doesn't seem reasonable that Debears should be scum. I realise you are just joining and getting proper context for your arguments can be hard, but one of the major reasons that people are suspicious of me is that I've been spending way too much time arguing the debears-boson case, which in hindsight I did rather poorly. Ironically, the second reason people are suspicious of me is that I was defending kush when nobody else would. The irony being that I was defending him for almost exactly the same reason you are now defending debears. It felt too easy. So in my book either you are using my two most scummy traits as your arguments against me, or I'm going crazy. | ||
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You don't have to believe me, everyone has consistently ignored my explanations for my play, or at least they've made no mention of taking them into account. Seeing as this will probably continue to be true, I'll just continue from now on under the assumption that I'm going to be killed and try to make the best of it. | ||
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On October 02 2012 20:38 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I'll get to it, I'm no miracle worker. >.<Alsn, I encourage you to answer my post. | ||
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On October 02 2012 04:04 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Ah, right, the one you posted yesterday that I didn't have time to respond to.+ Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 02:36 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I tried to collect my thoughts regarding the Alsn case and I realized when I first commented my perception of the timeline of events was off. On my first read through of the thread, I found Alsn being generally suspicious of everything (overall a town trait) and he had been fucking up with regards to some of the information (perhaps not what I'd expect of Alsn given what I've seen of him before, but I don't find it too weird). Alsn was pretty much a null read to me. Anyway, I went back to look at Alsn's filter. In his first post, which happens around 11 hours after the start of the game, he makes a long ass post about his thoughts on Kush. This in itself might be suspicious to some people, but having played with Kush in XXVI and XXVII he was probably the one player I was thinking the most about who to handle pre-game so I don't find it too weird. In his next post, one hour later, he has read up on the thread and recognizes that Kush has been playing like he Alsn had been afraid he would. He FOS Kush but says he's not convinced. Anyway, when I said I wasn't convinced of the case, I had messed up the timeline of events. I thought Alsn's posts indirectly defending Kush happened not long before Kush completely blew up. If that was the case, I would've found it weird for Kush to blow up soon after his scum buddy showed him support. It seems now that Kush blew up at a later stage when Alsn wasn't around the thread, so that nullifies the argument I thought I had against the case. I felt it was best to put it out there because if I happen to get killed off I don't want to leave with the impression I had some well thought out objection to the Alsn case. I still need to finish reading Alsn's filter and look at the case again, but I won't have time to do it until tomorrow. So yeah, not only did this turn out not to be an argument in favor of Alsn, but the timings makes sense for him being scum. Kush’s posts are actually most reasonable when Alsn is around and he later blows up after Alsn leaves with this post: + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 03:50 Alsn wrote: Would just like to say that I'm going to bed a little early today. Will be up in the morning(~12-14 hours before lynch) and making some posts and then on and off until lynch but without major "leaves of absence". Here's hoping that no one is still lurking when I wake up. This in itself isn’t necessarily incriminating but worth noting. Anyway, I’ll focus more on your reasoning for defending Kush. I don’t think it’s been fully covered and reading your filter this is something that doesn’t make sense to me. Intro: + Show Spoiler + When Alsn makes his first post Kush is taking heat from Darth. The Kush case hadn’t really been built yet, but the information is there. This is something Alsn acknowledges in his second post. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. The OMGUS, the aggression, the flaming, the scum slip. Despite this, he’s going back on what he just said in his first post: On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content And instead posts: On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. So he leaves saying he’s undecided on Kush, trying to steer the discussion in a different direction and if not, him having an easier bus decision (again, not incriminating in itself, but not my main point). Your main arguments for defending Kush is 1) his meta supporting his play and 2) the scum slip not being severe. To me that’s a really weird conclusion to make. Meta: I’m curious about this post because I disagree. I made a post later regarding how I think it didn’t match his town meta, a post you didn’t reply to (basically I think he has shown to be more aggressive, inflammatory and posted more pure crap as scum). Scum slip: Now that Kush is lynched, could you explain what those easy outs you thought of were? I’m really not seeing what easy outs you'd see for Kush straight up calling his attacker townie. Not only do I find your reasons for defending Kush weird, but to me they seem contradictory. Particularly when you claim that he is “basically just writing up whatever is on his mind” (which I think is true to a certain extent). If that’s your meta read on Kush, it would make all sense in the world that the scum slip is an actual scum slip. Typing what’s on your mind is exactly what results in a scum slip like that. So you’re using his meta to make null read on Kush's aggressive and nonsensical posts (which I disagree with) and you downplay his scum slip although it contradicts your meta read. To me this seems like slips in logic in made in order to defend Kush, a defense I now realize is both direct and indirect. Let me see. I've touched on my kush reasoning already but I basically felt the same thing Shady now claims to be feeling for debears. Things were going way too easily, as such I was(in hindsight, probably wrongly) trying to find reasons for why people would try and frame kush(and whom). It didn't occur to me that scum would have bussed him without putting up much of a fight. I suppose that actually supports your own argument that he "blew up" while I wasn't there to defend him, but I would have had no intentions of doing so anyway. I only started to feel defensive for him once there were an overwhelming amount of votes against him. See my somewhat convoluted "vote argument". In hindsight I probably should have just kept that line of thinking to myself. Your final question about easy outs. At the time I objected to the supposed 100% scum slip based on the idea that he could have used "townie" as a replacement word for player. Ironically, that's the exact same explanation he used himself, which probably added to my feeling that he was getting framed. At the time I was merely giving him the benefit of the doubt though. His reasons that anything else felt awkward was pretty silly but I must have dismissed it for when I finally saw his reasons, I was in full "this is too easy" mode. And now I really don't want to explain myself any longer. I'll answer short questions, but these last few posts are my final attempts at trying to explain my reasons for acting the way I've done so far. I'll make a last attempt at finding some scum before my possible lynch, but at this point I'm afraid since most people have just been sheeping onto myself and debears, finding any might be difficult. | ||
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On October 02 2012 07:43 Stutters695 wrote: Yea, because that's exactly what I did, isn't it?His whole day 1 posting is scummy as hell to me and reeks of someone who tried to help defend Kush before Kush melted down and tried to retroactively justify this defense through maintaining that stance. His case on debears is a good contribution (at first glance, I haven't read it in context of the thread yet) but I want to see how he explains his contradictions and false promises from day 1. Before kush melted down the only thing that I said that even remotely can be considered pro-kush was say that I felt town was jumping the gun. Almost everything else that I posted was just one massive criticism of kush. How you can go out of your way to find that scummy is beyond me. In fact, I'd go as far as agreeing with Z-BosoN that you're just sheeping and trying to hide the fact that you're scum. You may have been one of the first people to vote kush, but that wasn't until long after what we now know to be a slip. If you don't mind, considering that your own scum hunting has consisted of only attacking people who were already suspicious, just who do you think are scum in the case I turn out to be town? In fact, I'd like RemedySC to respond to this question as well, since he has also only been making "safe" plays so far. I don't see any reason for why people would be excused from answering my questions at this point, especially considering that I'm probably about to be lynched. If your motives are pure, explain yourselves. | ||
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On October 02 2012 21:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: What can I say, doublethink. It just didn't occur to me at the time that those two things are inherently contradictory.Yeah, it is a bit ironic he used that exact reason. I was thinking maybe you had a better explanation to his slip, which would've made you less suspicious is my eyes. Downplaying the scum slip because you saw the easy out of him replacing person with townie while simultaneously claiming he's "writing up whatever is on his mind" seems weird to me. | ||
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debears (3) - djodref, Omniscient4983, Darthpunk, Alsn (4) - Sonic Death Monkey, debears, Shady Sands, RemedySC no lynch (0) | ||
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On October 02 2012 23:36 DarthPunk wrote: Seriously. Like I just pointed out to someone else(I think stutters but I don't remember). Just because I say a few lines in my argument to caution against tunnelling and sheeping doesn't mean I'm defending him.Th bolded is false. You were defensive towards him when it was just me pushing him. | ||
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On October 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote: I think you're vastly overestimating my comments as some kind of criticism of your initial attack on kush instead of what they truly were, cautionary advice to newbies so they wouldn't just mindlessly sheep your case. I think your entire concept of "soft defense is EXACTLY how scum would act!" is WIFOM but regardless we are helping no one with this argument. You think I'm scum, that's fine. Let's leave it at that, I don't want to spend my potential last few hours explaining why I think you're wrong.But stuff like that is exactly how you defend people as scum. You attack the argument and process of the player attacking your buddy. You don't blatantly defend them. I don't get how you don't understand this. | ||
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On October 03 2012 00:04 DarthPunk wrote: If that's true then that's just unfortunate, cause that's not how I remember it.And it was hardly a few lines. we had a very in depth discussion about it. | ||
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On October 03 2012 00:07 debears wrote: Seriously, I'm so sick of this argument. You say I haven't scum hunted, yet almost everyone in the thread agrees that you and me are the scum team and that everyone else is town or the very least null. If no one else can find any evidence of scum among the rest of the players, why should my lack of finding any mean that I'm suddenly not scum hunting? Yes, everyone else could definitely just genuinely believe that we are both scum, but you? Either you are town yourself and should be suspicious that everyone considers us as the main scum team, or you are scum and you know that I'm town. If anything you using that argument could be considered a slip but me suggesting that is probably WIFOM on some level.Hi Shady!! @Alsn To me d1 case on you isn't as strong as the d2 case. You keep saying you don't want to defend yourself, yet you haven't scumhunted I've spent massive amounts of time reading filters, I've asked a few questions where I wanted answers but either they turn up nothing or they don't get answered. It's like you're saying anyone who scum hunts must have come to a conclusion. What if scum are actually just hiding well? Also, your maths is silly. 40% just means that I find you more scummy than random chance(75% chance of town, 25% scum based on the setup) which is what "null" means in my mind. Why you would use 50/50 as a baseline is beyond me. I could see reason to use 10/12 town vs 2/12 scum since kush has flipped, or 9/11 vs 2/11 but the latter includes the supposition that I'm town. I'm leaving my vote on you, and that's final. I'll try and figure out who scum number two is before I get lynched, but I don't think I will be able to. | ||
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##Vote: debears | ||
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I'm going out on a limb and saying that I'm 100% convinced that debears is scum and I'll tell you why. He keeps mentioning that I'm not scum hunting, but in the case that he's town and truly think that I'm scum, he must find it suspicious that so many of you others think us both scum since there has to be one more scum out there. Funny thing is though, his main other scum target is corrosion who explicitly said that he had no opinion of me due to outright not even reading my posts. Corrosion is one of the few people who actually isn't(or wasn't I suppose, since he was replaced) of the opinion that me and debears are the two remaining scum. He was suspicious of debears, but not me. This makes a lot of sense to me because Shady Sands upon replacing corrosion is of the exact opposite opinion. He finds me scummy but not debears. If corrosion was indeed scum wouldn't it make sense that Shady would try and keep corrosions story somewhat straight? Instead he seems to genuinely share his own feelings with regards to the current situation. This leads me to believe that corrosion/Shady is town, and debears used corrosion's newbie posting as a way to display his willingness to scum hunt as he puts it. In fact, debears only commits to those reads after Z-BosoN pressures him to share his reads on those players. The interesting thing is that the idea that I'm not scum hunting isn't even his own. DarthPunk and Z-BosoN(I think, please don't go ape shit on me if that's incorrect, I can't be arsed to go over his filter *again*) called me out for it much earlier than him, but they have good reason for it because they are not me or debears, if they are town they have no reason not to believe we can both be scum based on our previous record. Less so now, but when they called me out for not scum hunting I had been behaving very oddly due to having to retract my feeling that they were scummy. Debears lack of comments about Shady's case on me also supports this theory, because right now the pressure on him has decreased, it's in his best interest right now to make it seem like his story is consistent, and keeping up pressure on me since he made a massive case against me is probably his best bet. I'm asking for a lynch on debears. If there's something that I've missed that is inherently contradictory, then fuck me I'm useless at this game. I'm working on a theory of who might be the second scum, but I don't think I'll be able to narrow it down to a name but if that changes before lynch I will definitely let you all know. | ||
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Bleh, I'll really take a break this time, I need to clear my head. | ||
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On September 29 2012 19:19 DarthPunk wrote: Stop complaining about other people scum hunting and do some yourself. Wow, why don't you look at this time stamp? It took me literally 10 seconds to find it. | ||
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What are you trying to say, exactly? | ||
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However, that's several hours after Z-BosoN asks you the following: On September 30 2012 05:37 Z-BosoN wrote: I've taken a look at Alsn's lurker lists filters and found some interesting things. Out of those four, who do you think would be the third scum, assuming it's one of them? As such, you suspecting corrosion most certainly isn't an original idea. Especially considering Z-BosoN had pressured corrosion in one of his posts earlier. I would argue that you chose corrosion carefully as a target among those players. Especially since you admit yourself that you thought DarthPunk was suspicious of corrosion as well. | ||
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On October 03 2012 02:31 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Nevermind, the reason I thought it was 100% was based on how my own line of thinking was going. I realised that there's a possibility a town debears wouldn't necessarily have reached the same conclusion. I think he's scummy for suspecting corrosion due to being pressured to suspect someone because I myself couldn't find much reasons to suspect corrosion and I bet everyone feels somewhat the same with regards to that point.I'm still not sure if I get it. Shady is confirmed town because he didn't stick to Corrosions' ideas. Debears attacks Corrosion and thus he's scum. Even if your Corrosion/Shady argument is 100% accurate (quite the stretch), townies can still suspect townies. Am I at least getting close? I don't think there's much point in trying to explain myself any longer though because at the very most I suspect I'll achieve a no-lynch and not my preferred lynch of debears. | ||
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On October 03 2012 02:41 debears wrote: Which again RemedySC had pointed out before you, not original.Also, my case on corrosion had distinctly different ideas from Z-Bo's Z-Bo wanted him to explain his accusations on Darth. I wanted him to explain his vote and his terrible reasoning which came way after, besides the other scummy stuff he had done. I guessed that DP was suspicious of corrosion because I was and the corrosion case had evidence. That's WIFOM | ||
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The only advantage I've had over anyone here is that I've actually known that I'm town but I have nothing to show for it. In hindsight I think my biggest mistake was sharing waaaaay too much of my own thoughts, but I don't think the situation we've ended up in is all that terrible. If nothing else me looking scummy at least sparked a ton of discussion. I can almost guarantee that no one in this game spent more time scum hunting than me(I've almost literally spent every single hour since the game started either sleeping, eating, or reading this thread and related filters), yet I came up with almost nothing. The only thing I can say is that everything I've claimed my intentions were, are true. I genuinely was of the opinion that lynching kush was policy for me, the only time I ever had doubts about lynching him was when I felt there were way too many votes for him too easily. I also genuinely suspected Darth and Z-BosoN, those were in fact the people who I would have wanted to lynch in that post where I claimed "I'd rather vote my top scum reads" but I just had no clue whatsoever that I would be unable to find anything supporting that feel read. My later "soul searching" was through coaching, but I didn't want to say that out loud since that felt like I would've dug an even deeper hole than what I was in at the time. I'm afraid if I share any reads at this point that I'll just confuse and derail the thread further, so I wont. I just hope you can find the bastards. Is there anything anyone reading the thread would like to know before I'm lynched? Anything that you don't understand that I can answer quickly? If not, Good Luck! Sincerely, Alsn | ||
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