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On October 01 2012 13:37 Z-BosoN wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This was one massively deluded post. I couldn't have been any clearer on my case against debears. 1)My case presented two main arguments, and one supporting argument that includes a bunch of shit that can feasibly come from a scum.
Argument 1) His stance on kush after a direct FOS.
Argument 2) His 180 on Djoref.I have made these both very clear in my case. You are acting as if I didn't bring up his 180 on Djoref. Your only "original" argument that could arguably mean something includes him being defensive. That's actually the one thing he has going for him, he's defended himself and still managed to make cases, more cases than you. I started answering this post topic by topic but quickly figured out that it had so much uselessness, so much pointlessness, and so much gibberish that I simply couldn't continue answering straight up. I get emotional when I feel someone is talking too much crap, but that does not automatically make my entire case based on emotion. In this post you've managed to: a) 2)give me a town read based on my "emotion" and "confirmation bias" while throwing my case to shit and then actually using one of it's main arguments.b) make a weaker case against debears, in what seems to be a weakass attempt to justify your vote c) 3)not defend yourself against one certain post I made. Are you gonna say that it's confirmation biased too?This post reeks of mafia mentality. Why? 4)You accuse me of making weak cases based on emotion and confirmation bias. You feel the need to say that this makes me townie. You are trying to discredit me, right after I've made an entire case against you.
But you don't want to make it look like you are defending a high priority target like debears, so you go ahead and try to find some other things you can say against him so it can seem like you are genuinely after him.
1)And I've tried to make myself clear that those two points are one of the few points you actually make out of your massive argument with debears that I agree with from your cases. My point wasn't that your conclusion that debears was scum was necessarily incorrect, but that you've included a lot of reasons for suspecting him that was on very shaky grounds. In particular, I'm thinking about the first few exchanges between the two of you and also your need to make up a reason for why almost every single line he says is scummy when it's clear as day that not all of them are.
2)No, I chose to point out what I agree with because they were among the few things you said that actually made any sense to me whatsoever. I discredited the rest of your case against him because I felt they were based on emotion, not reality.
3)No, if you had actually read what I've said recently, I made a ton of mistakes in my reasoning during the early stages. You painted that picture quite clearly, I have nothing more to say. If people don't think it makes sense to me that I would have been suspicious of you and DP due to me thinking my original arguments were sound, then I don't know what to say. I've clarified that my scum reads D1 were you and DP, but when I spent time trying to make cases against you, I realised how grave my mistakes had been.
4)And lastly I want to comment on this and clarify that I most certainly was not trying to discredit your case against me. It points out a bunch of flaws and inconsistencies in my reasoning and as I've explained, they were caused by my mistaken belief of how early D1 transpired. I was disputing your case against debears, because honestly, it wasn't a case as much as a few good points in a massive amount of conjecture. You responded to literally everything he said and added a reason for why it could be mafia motivated. How is that not confirmation bias?
To sum up, your case against me does make me look scummy. The reasons that it does though is that you and DP and others have refused to believe my claims of intent. I've stated several times that I based my original target choices on gut reads towards their posts. If you don't agree that your initial intentions for attacking debears seem convoluted at this point I don't know what to say anymore. Then the rest of my arguing that day was because of a simple misunderstanding where I had mistakenly thought you had been on Darth's side early D1 with regards to attacking kush, making me feel like you both had very scummy reasons for arguing against me. I will leave it at that, if anyone is interested in looking at my filter with those things in mind then I thank you, because I realise at this point that my filter is getting pretty damn big.
If nothing else, I ask that people please read the italicized part before they jump to conclusions, although most of it I have tried to say already but it seems like people haven't noticed them. I'm getting really tired of defending myself at this point because while I haven't exactly found that I consider scummy, it's not for a lack of trying.
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EBWOP: If nothing else, I ask that people please read the italicized part before they jump to conclusions, although most of it I have tried to say already but it seems like people haven't noticed them. I'm getting really tired of defending myself at this point because while I haven't exactly found that I consider scummy, it's not for a lack of trying.
Should be:
If nothing else, I ask that people please read the italicized part before they jump to conclusions, although most of it I have tried to say already but it seems like people haven't noticed them. I'm getting really tired of defending myself at this point because while I haven't exactly found much that I consider scummy, it's not for a lack of trying.
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I'm torn on your latest posts corrosion. While I'm happy that at least someone agrees with me with regards to how Z-BosoN argued with debears, I'm sad that you feel you can't play any longer. I somewhat feel responsible due to the massive clusterfuck I have caused this game, but you probably should have just messaged a moderator and asked for a replacement instead of trying to make a couple of posts as "I'm quitting, here's what I think" because if we can't ask you to explain yourself, the only thing we would get out of your posts would be riddled with WIFOM until you either get modkilled, lynched, or otherwise killed.
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@Omniscient
I'd like you to respond to RemedySC's questions, but I'd also like to ask you about the following quote:
On September 29 2012 01:46 Omniscient4983 wrote:
@stutters
I'm inclined to agree here. Seems like you kind of jumped on the anti-Kush bandwagon without much thought. Admittedly, I didn't like his early play either, but I'm interested in hearing what you have to say concerning it. What made you suspect that stutters suddenly jumped the kush bandwagon? At that point there wasn't even much of a wagon to jump onto. Yes, Darth had been pressuing kush pretty hard, but other than that people had been mostly cautious at that stage. I would argue that Stutters and SDM actually caused the wagon.
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On October 01 2012 23:48 debears wrote:
Alsn, you misunderstood what I was stating in my case against you. You have yet to make any real contribution to the thread. In the qt, you were making a scum team list constantly. You have yet to do that. The most extent you've gone so far is "debears looks scummy" up until the time you vote for me. That was an obs QT. I was commenting as an observer, not as a player. If you really wanted to know how I play you should check my last actual game. I never committed to anyone as scum in that game either, for the same reasons as now. I am not confident at all that I have found any scum yet. The only one's that are giving me scum vibes are you and some of the lurky posters, but having gone through their filters I keep coming up with any compelling reasons that I can't hand wave away in my head as "this guy is probably new".
Right now I can only go on the fact that I find you scummier than anyone else, but I'm actually quite scared of the possibility that some of the people I think are town might really just be clever scum. I'm not all that convinced about you to be honest but if I had to wager I'd give you flipping scum something like a 40% chance. I need more information and for now I'd be content with confirming your alignment.
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Haven't been able to stay updated in the thread tonight but I skimmed through it quickly and noticed there were a lot of posts with me as the main attraction but I really need to go sleep now so if there are questions people want answered then it'll have to wait until tomorrow.
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Hey again, skimmed through quickly and the Battle for the Noose post made me chuckle, thanks Boson, I needed some cheering up. 
Anyway, I'd like to address your point against me Shady.
On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote:
So at this point I have a moderate scum read on Alsn and strong town read on Darthpunk.
I'm still not sold on Debears yet. Every time people push him as a lynch and everyone just nods along and agrees (this is based on a cursory ready through 30+ pages of filter late at night, so pardon me if I'm totally wrong about this), I get a wierd feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why? Because scum is already down one, there is almost zero chance they'd accede easily to a second consecutive bus. So if everyone is nodding along on Debears, and scum isn't going to roll over and bus again, then, WIFOM as this reasoning is, it doesn't seem reasonable that Debears should be scum. This analysis makes no sense to me. You say the lynch on debears is going too easily because no one objects to it? What's different about the debears lynch compared to the lynch against me? As far as I can tell if we were allowed to lynch two people, both me and debears would be dead in an instant. I've even pointed out several times that debears has been getting unfairly attacked several times, something which is in line with your own conclusion.
I realise you are just joining and getting proper context for your arguments can be hard, but one of the major reasons that people are suspicious of me is that I've been spending way too much time arguing the debears-boson case, which in hindsight I did rather poorly.
Ironically, the second reason people are suspicious of me is that I was defending kush when nobody else would. The irony being that I was defending him for almost exactly the same reason you are now defending debears. It felt too easy. So in my book either you are using my two most scummy traits as your arguments against me, or I'm going crazy.
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Z-BosoN, your argument that I'm inconsistent this game is mostly sound. In fact, I can't deny that what I've done so far has been very unproductive. I'll however repeat myself only one last time. I made a few errors and misinterpreted your and DP's statements against me which in my mind was really scummy which clouded my judgement. To be fair, I've actually tried to rely on logical conclusions this game(thus why I later on went ahead and didn't post cases against either of you). Unfortunately I've based some of them on faulty information(chiefly, my beginning arguments against yourself) and some gut feeling(simply due to my lack of ability to find proper scumminess). Finally if you look at my quote from XXV against kush in context, he was using no logic whatsoever up until that point that game.
You don't have to believe me, everyone has consistently ignored my explanations for my play, or at least they've made no mention of taking them into account. Seeing as this will probably continue to be true, I'll just continue from now on under the assumption that I'm going to be killed and try to make the best of it.
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On October 02 2012 20:38 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Alsn, I encourage you to answer my post. I'll get to it, I'm no miracle worker. >.<
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On October 02 2012 04:04 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2012 02:36 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
I tried to collect my thoughts regarding the Alsn case and I realized when I first commented my perception of the timeline of events was off.
On my first read through of the thread, I found Alsn being generally suspicious of everything (overall a town trait) and he had been fucking up with regards to some of the information (perhaps not what I'd expect of Alsn given what I've seen of him before, but I don't find it too weird). Alsn was pretty much a null read to me. Anyway, I went back to look at Alsn's filter.
In his first post, which happens around 11 hours after the start of the game, he makes a long ass post about his thoughts on Kush. This in itself might be suspicious to some people, but having played with Kush in XXVI and XXVII he was probably the one player I was thinking the most about who to handle pre-game so I don't find it too weird. In his next post, one hour later, he has read up on the thread and recognizes that Kush has been playing like he Alsn had been afraid he would. He FOS Kush but says he's not convinced.
Anyway, when I said I wasn't convinced of the case, I had messed up the timeline of events. I thought Alsn's posts indirectly defending Kush happened not long before Kush completely blew up. If that was the case, I would've found it weird for Kush to blow up soon after his scum buddy showed him support. It seems now that Kush blew up at a later stage when Alsn wasn't around the thread, so that nullifies the argument I thought I had against the case.
I felt it was best to put it out there because if I happen to get killed off I don't want to leave with the impression I had some well thought out objection to the Alsn case. I still need to finish reading Alsn's filter and look at the case again, but I won't have time to do it until tomorrow. So yeah, not only did this turn out not to be an argument in favor of Alsn, but the timings makes sense for him being scum. Kush’s posts are actually most reasonable when Alsn is around and he later blows up after Alsn leaves with this post: + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 03:50 Alsn wrote:
Would just like to say that I'm going to bed a little early today. Will be up in the morning(~12-14 hours before lynch) and making some posts and then on and off until lynch but without major "leaves of absence". Here's hoping that no one is still lurking when I wake up. This in itself isn’t necessarily incriminating but worth noting. Anyway, I’ll focus more on your reasoning for defending Kush. I don’t think it’s been fully covered and reading your filter this is something that doesn’t make sense to me. Intro: + Show Spoiler +When Alsn makes his first post Kush is taking heat from Darth. The Kush case hadn’t really been built yet, but the information is there. This is something Alsn acknowledges in his second post. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:
Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. The OMGUS, the aggression, the flaming, the scum slip. Despite this, he’s going back on what he just said in his first post: On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:
So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content And instead posts: On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:
However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies.
I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. So he leaves saying he’s undecided on Kush, trying to steer the discussion in a different direction and if not, him having an easier bus decision (again, not incriminating in itself, but not my main point). Your main arguments for defending Kush is 1) his meta supporting his play and 2) the scum slip not being severe. To me that’s a really weird conclusion to make. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Meta: I’m curious about this post because I disagree. I made a post later regarding how I think it didn’t match his town meta, a post you didn’t reply to (basically I think he has shown to be more aggressive, inflammatory and posted more pure crap as scum). Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum.
This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. Scum slip: Now that Kush is lynched, could you explain what those easy outs you thought of were? I’m really not seeing what easy outs you'd see for Kush straight up calling his attacker townie. Not only do I find your reasons for defending Kush weird, but to me they seem contradictory. Particularly when you claim that he is “basically just writing up whatever is on his mind” (which I think is true to a certain extent). If that’s your meta read on Kush, it would make all sense in the world that the scum slip is an actual scum slip. Typing what’s on your mind is exactly what results in a scum slip like that. So you’re using his meta to make null read on Kush's aggressive and nonsensical posts (which I disagree with) and you downplay his scum slip although it contradicts your meta read. To me this seems like slips in logic in made in order to defend Kush, a defense I now realize is both direct and indirect. Ah, right, the one you posted yesterday that I didn't have time to respond to.
Let me see. I've touched on my kush reasoning already but I basically felt the same thing Shady now claims to be feeling for debears. Things were going way too easily, as such I was(in hindsight, probably wrongly) trying to find reasons for why people would try and frame kush(and whom). It didn't occur to me that scum would have bussed him without putting up much of a fight. I suppose that actually supports your own argument that he "blew up" while I wasn't there to defend him, but I would have had no intentions of doing so anyway. I only started to feel defensive for him once there were an overwhelming amount of votes against him. See my somewhat convoluted "vote argument". In hindsight I probably should have just kept that line of thinking to myself.
Your final question about easy outs. At the time I objected to the supposed 100% scum slip based on the idea that he could have used "townie" as a replacement word for player. Ironically, that's the exact same explanation he used himself, which probably added to my feeling that he was getting framed. At the time I was merely giving him the benefit of the doubt though. His reasons that anything else felt awkward was pretty silly but I must have dismissed it for when I finally saw his reasons, I was in full "this is too easy" mode.
And now I really don't want to explain myself any longer. I'll answer short questions, but these last few posts are my final attempts at trying to explain my reasons for acting the way I've done so far. I'll make a last attempt at finding some scum before my possible lynch, but at this point I'm afraid since most people have just been sheeping onto myself and debears, finding any might be difficult.
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I'm assuming you meant that post? If not, please say so shortlyish, I don't want to spend any more time than I have to at this stage.
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Noticed that I missed one point you made about my kush-meta comment that you disagreed with and that I didn't answer earlier. I merely meant that if I was to lynch kush at that point, it was for policy reasons, not that I was convinced he was scum. I honestly didn't believe that he would completely ignore Hapa's comment and just thought he was sincerely angry, and not fake angry.
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Remedy, I find the timing of your post unfortunate, as I just explained that at the time I made that comment, I myself was only ready to lynch kush mostly for policy reasons. Given what information I had at the time, I don't find it so unreasonable that I was afraid at the time that if we kept pressuring only kush that there was a possibility of him self-lynching himself(just like happened now) but that he would actually flip town.
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On October 02 2012 07:43 Stutters695 wrote:
His whole day 1 posting is scummy as hell to me and reeks of someone who tried to help defend Kush before Kush melted down and tried to retroactively justify this defense through maintaining that stance. His case on debears is a good contribution (at first glance, I haven't read it in context of the thread yet) but I want to see how he explains his contradictions and false promises from day 1. Yea, because that's exactly what I did, isn't it?
Before kush melted down the only thing that I said that even remotely can be considered pro-kush was say that I felt town was jumping the gun. Almost everything else that I posted was just one massive criticism of kush. How you can go out of your way to find that scummy is beyond me. In fact, I'd go as far as agreeing with Z-BosoN that you're just sheeping and trying to hide the fact that you're scum.
You may have been one of the first people to vote kush, but that wasn't until long after what we now know to be a slip. If you don't mind, considering that your own scum hunting has consisted of only attacking people who were already suspicious, just who do you think are scum in the case I turn out to be town?
In fact, I'd like RemedySC to respond to this question as well, since he has also only been making "safe" plays so far. I don't see any reason for why people would be excused from answering my questions at this point, especially considering that I'm probably about to be lynched. If your motives are pure, explain yourselves.
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On October 02 2012 21:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Yeah, it is a bit ironic he used that exact reason. I was thinking maybe you had a better explanation to his slip, which would've made you less suspicious is my eyes. Downplaying the scum slip because you saw the easy out of him replacing person with townie while simultaneously claiming he's "writing up whatever is on his mind" seems weird to me. What can I say, doublethink. It just didn't occur to me at the time that those two things are inherently contradictory.
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Sorry, I should have phrased that differently. I meant other than me.
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As far as I can tell:
debears (3) - djodref, Omniscient4983, Darthpunk, Z-Boson, DarthPunk
Alsn (4) - Sonic Death Monkey, debears, Shady Sands, RemedySC DarthPunk
no lynch (0) corrosion
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On October 02 2012 23:36 DarthPunk wrote:
Th bolded is false. You were defensive towards him when it was just me pushing him. Seriously. Like I just pointed out to someone else(I think stutters but I don't remember). Just because I say a few lines in my argument to caution against tunnelling and sheeping doesn't mean I'm defending him.
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On October 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:
But stuff like that is exactly how you defend people as scum. You attack the argument and process of the player attacking your buddy. You don't blatantly defend them. I don't get how you don't understand this. I think you're vastly overestimating my comments as some kind of criticism of your initial attack on kush instead of what they truly were, cautionary advice to newbies so they wouldn't just mindlessly sheep your case. I think your entire concept of "soft defense is EXACTLY how scum would act!" is WIFOM but regardless we are helping no one with this argument. You think I'm scum, that's fine. Let's leave it at that, I don't want to spend my potential last few hours explaining why I think you're wrong.
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On October 03 2012 00:04 DarthPunk wrote:
And it was hardly a few lines. we had a very in depth discussion about it. If that's true then that's just unfortunate, cause that's not how I remember it.
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EPT
