EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXVIII - Page 33
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On October 02 2012 18:10 DarthPunk wrote: Also. We need to consolidate on Either Alsn or Debears. I am happy with either. Would mildly prefer a debears lynch. But I think both are scummy as shit. So. Who are we going to Consolidate onto? Z- Boson? SDM? thoughts? I'm leaning Alsn and I'm hoping to have time to explain why with a good amount of time to the lynch. I agree about the consolidating, but I don't think we're in a hurry. With an early concensus it's easier for scum to blend in, whereas if we wait they'll potentially face the pressure of a bus or save situation (or wait until the last minute to make a decision, which is scummy looking). | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: However, he's only a moderate scumread. Depending on what happens between now and when I check in the thread in about 16 or 17 hours, I might change my mind. On October 02 2012 16:39 thrawn2112 wrote: You have about 12 hours 20 minutes left to vote! Deadline is at 20:00 GMT (+00:00) | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
 Anyway, I'd like to address your point against me Shady. On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: This analysis makes no sense to me. You say the lynch on debears is going too easily because no one objects to it? What's different about the debears lynch compared to the lynch against me? As far as I can tell if we were allowed to lynch two people, both me and debears would be dead in an instant. I've even pointed out several times that debears has been getting unfairly attacked several times, something which is in line with your own conclusion.So at this point I have a moderate scum read on Alsn and strong town read on Darthpunk. I'm still not sold on Debears yet. Every time people push him as a lynch and everyone just nods along and agrees (this is based on a cursory ready through 30+ pages of filter late at night, so pardon me if I'm totally wrong about this), I get a wierd feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why? Because scum is already down one, there is almost zero chance they'd accede easily to a second consecutive bus. So if everyone is nodding along on Debears, and scum isn't going to roll over and bus again, then, WIFOM as this reasoning is, it doesn't seem reasonable that Debears should be scum. I realise you are just joining and getting proper context for your arguments can be hard, but one of the major reasons that people are suspicious of me is that I've been spending way too much time arguing the debears-boson case, which in hindsight I did rather poorly. Ironically, the second reason people are suspicious of me is that I was defending kush when nobody else would. The irony being that I was defending him for almost exactly the same reason you are now defending debears. It felt too easy. So in my book either you are using my two most scummy traits as your arguments against me, or I'm going crazy. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
You don't have to believe me, everyone has consistently ignored my explanations for my play, or at least they've made no mention of taking them into account. Seeing as this will probably continue to be true, I'll just continue from now on under the assumption that I'm going to be killed and try to make the best of it. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On October 02 2012 20:38 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I'll get to it, I'm no miracle worker. >.<Alsn, I encourage you to answer my post. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On October 02 2012 04:04 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Ah, right, the one you posted yesterday that I didn't have time to respond to.+ Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 02:36 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I tried to collect my thoughts regarding the Alsn case and I realized when I first commented my perception of the timeline of events was off. On my first read through of the thread, I found Alsn being generally suspicious of everything (overall a town trait) and he had been fucking up with regards to some of the information (perhaps not what I'd expect of Alsn given what I've seen of him before, but I don't find it too weird). Alsn was pretty much a null read to me. Anyway, I went back to look at Alsn's filter. In his first post, which happens around 11 hours after the start of the game, he makes a long ass post about his thoughts on Kush. This in itself might be suspicious to some people, but having played with Kush in XXVI and XXVII he was probably the one player I was thinking the most about who to handle pre-game so I don't find it too weird. In his next post, one hour later, he has read up on the thread and recognizes that Kush has been playing like he Alsn had been afraid he would. He FOS Kush but says he's not convinced. Anyway, when I said I wasn't convinced of the case, I had messed up the timeline of events. I thought Alsn's posts indirectly defending Kush happened not long before Kush completely blew up. If that was the case, I would've found it weird for Kush to blow up soon after his scum buddy showed him support. It seems now that Kush blew up at a later stage when Alsn wasn't around the thread, so that nullifies the argument I thought I had against the case. I felt it was best to put it out there because if I happen to get killed off I don't want to leave with the impression I had some well thought out objection to the Alsn case. I still need to finish reading Alsn's filter and look at the case again, but I won't have time to do it until tomorrow. So yeah, not only did this turn out not to be an argument in favor of Alsn, but the timings makes sense for him being scum. Kush’s posts are actually most reasonable when Alsn is around and he later blows up after Alsn leaves with this post: + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 03:50 Alsn wrote: Would just like to say that I'm going to bed a little early today. Will be up in the morning(~12-14 hours before lynch) and making some posts and then on and off until lynch but without major "leaves of absence". Here's hoping that no one is still lurking when I wake up. This in itself isn’t necessarily incriminating but worth noting. Anyway, I’ll focus more on your reasoning for defending Kush. I don’t think it’s been fully covered and reading your filter this is something that doesn’t make sense to me. Intro: + Show Spoiler + When Alsn makes his first post Kush is taking heat from Darth. The Kush case hadn’t really been built yet, but the information is there. This is something Alsn acknowledges in his second post. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. The OMGUS, the aggression, the flaming, the scum slip. Despite this, he’s going back on what he just said in his first post: On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content And instead posts: On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. So he leaves saying he’s undecided on Kush, trying to steer the discussion in a different direction and if not, him having an easier bus decision (again, not incriminating in itself, but not my main point). Your main arguments for defending Kush is 1) his meta supporting his play and 2) the scum slip not being severe. To me that’s a really weird conclusion to make. Meta: I’m curious about this post because I disagree. I made a post later regarding how I think it didn’t match his town meta, a post you didn’t reply to (basically I think he has shown to be more aggressive, inflammatory and posted more pure crap as scum). Scum slip: Now that Kush is lynched, could you explain what those easy outs you thought of were? I’m really not seeing what easy outs you'd see for Kush straight up calling his attacker townie. Not only do I find your reasons for defending Kush weird, but to me they seem contradictory. Particularly when you claim that he is “basically just writing up whatever is on his mind” (which I think is true to a certain extent). If that’s your meta read on Kush, it would make all sense in the world that the scum slip is an actual scum slip. Typing what’s on your mind is exactly what results in a scum slip like that. So you’re using his meta to make null read on Kush's aggressive and nonsensical posts (which I disagree with) and you downplay his scum slip although it contradicts your meta read. To me this seems like slips in logic in made in order to defend Kush, a defense I now realize is both direct and indirect. Let me see. I've touched on my kush reasoning already but I basically felt the same thing Shady now claims to be feeling for debears. Things were going way too easily, as such I was(in hindsight, probably wrongly) trying to find reasons for why people would try and frame kush(and whom). It didn't occur to me that scum would have bussed him without putting up much of a fight. I suppose that actually supports your own argument that he "blew up" while I wasn't there to defend him, but I would have had no intentions of doing so anyway. I only started to feel defensive for him once there were an overwhelming amount of votes against him. See my somewhat convoluted "vote argument". In hindsight I probably should have just kept that line of thinking to myself. Your final question about easy outs. At the time I objected to the supposed 100% scum slip based on the idea that he could have used "townie" as a replacement word for player. Ironically, that's the exact same explanation he used himself, which probably added to my feeling that he was getting framed. At the time I was merely giving him the benefit of the doubt though. His reasons that anything else felt awkward was pretty silly but I must have dismissed it for when I finally saw his reasons, I was in full "this is too easy" mode. And now I really don't want to explain myself any longer. I'll answer short questions, but these last few posts are my final attempts at trying to explain my reasons for acting the way I've done so far. I'll make a last attempt at finding some scum before my possible lynch, but at this point I'm afraid since most people have just been sheeping onto myself and debears, finding any might be difficult. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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RemedySC
Canada176 Posts
On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: + Show Spoiler + That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. This is Alsn's first post of the game. He takes a very early stance on Kush's "trolly meta"; Stating that unless he provides a concrete analysis without OMGUS, that it is in the town's best interest to lynch him. He sums it up saying that he can forgive Kush on his style of posting, but won't forgive him for posting "shitty content". Well I think it was pretty obvious to what type of content Kush posted. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: + Show Spoiler + Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously... There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. Here is his second post where he also casts his suspicion of Kush. He also says for him to let up he needs Kush to straighten out his play. Alsn also tells everyone they are jumping the gun on Kush. Wouldn't you want town to pressure people until they are either clearly scum or town? I don't think he that statement is pro town at all. I would like to here what Alsn has as a reply to the bolded part also. SDM pointed it out and I also like to here what your reasons were at the time. On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: + Show Spoiler + First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Why would this be your nightmare scenario? Everyone voting for Kush? By this time Kush has posted all but one of his posts. He had not contributed to a scum hunt, made some very raging comments, and started to troll to his hearts content. Yet your very first post says you'll lynch him if he expresses this behavior. Now finally your vote. - On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: + Show Spoiler + I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta You have this "feel" of him being town. After your initial statement about lynching him if he doesn't change his attitude, you say you don't want to lynch him based on a feel? Also the bolded part... How do you come to the conclusion that he isn't responsible for not scum hunting? You then go onto say you have some suspicions, but you don't want to go over them until the lynch is over? I think if you had any reservations for Kush as town, you would be bringing that up well before lynch time. Lastly you state that although your gut is screaming at you, you end up voting for Kush anyways. Is that because you don't want to be the only one not voting for Kush? You than mention Boson, and that it irks you that some people got away with posting. I don't really see how that fits into your vote at all. So far now ##Vote Alsn | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On October 02 2012 21:03 Alsn wrote: Your final question about easy outs. At the time I objected to the supposed 100% scum slip based on the idea that he could have used "townie" as a replacement word for player. Ironically, that's the exact same explanation he used himself, which probably added to my feeling that he was getting framed. At the time I was merely giving him the benefit of the doubt though. His reasons that anything else felt awkward was pretty silly but I must have dismissed it for when I finally saw his reasons, I was in full "this is too easy" mode. Yeah, it is a bit ironic he used that exact reason. I was thinking maybe you had a better explanation to his slip, which would've made you less suspicious is my eyes. Downplaying the scum slip because you saw the easy out of him replacing person with townie while simultaneously claiming he's "writing up whatever is on his mind" seems weird to me. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On October 02 2012 07:43 Stutters695 wrote: Yea, because that's exactly what I did, isn't it?His whole day 1 posting is scummy as hell to me and reeks of someone who tried to help defend Kush before Kush melted down and tried to retroactively justify this defense through maintaining that stance. His case on debears is a good contribution (at first glance, I haven't read it in context of the thread yet) but I want to see how he explains his contradictions and false promises from day 1. Before kush melted down the only thing that I said that even remotely can be considered pro-kush was say that I felt town was jumping the gun. Almost everything else that I posted was just one massive criticism of kush. How you can go out of your way to find that scummy is beyond me. In fact, I'd go as far as agreeing with Z-BosoN that you're just sheeping and trying to hide the fact that you're scum. You may have been one of the first people to vote kush, but that wasn't until long after what we now know to be a slip. If you don't mind, considering that your own scum hunting has consisted of only attacking people who were already suspicious, just who do you think are scum in the case I turn out to be town? In fact, I'd like RemedySC to respond to this question as well, since he has also only been making "safe" plays so far. I don't see any reason for why people would be excused from answering my questions at this point, especially considering that I'm probably about to be lynched. If your motives are pure, explain yourselves. | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On October 02 2012 19:48 DarthPunk wrote: Are you ok with an alsn lynch? @DarthPunk Was this question directed to me ? I think I have already made it clear that I was also ok with an Alsn lynch... Anyway I can't really develop here because I'm on evening shift but I'll be back in 5h to cast my final vote. I'll try to do some scumhunting also if I'm not too tired because I'm getting lazy in this thread. | ||
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RemedySC
Canada176 Posts
On October 02 2012 21:19 Alsn wrote: Remedy, I find the timing of your post unfortunate, as I just explained that at the time I made that comment, I myself was only ready to lynch kush mostly for policy reasons. Given what information I had at the time, I don't find it so unreasonable that I was afraid at the time that if we kept pressuring only kush that there was a possibility of him self-lynching himself(just like happened now) but that he would actually flip town. Yeah, sorry i had the case prepared on my computer last night. I intended to post it then, but have to work 7am today. I basically woke up, edited, hit reply. At work now and reading what i missed. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On October 02 2012 21:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: What can I say, doublethink. It just didn't occur to me at the time that those two things are inherently contradictory.Yeah, it is a bit ironic he used that exact reason. I was thinking maybe you had a better explanation to his slip, which would've made you less suspicious is my eyes. Downplaying the scum slip because you saw the easy out of him replacing person with townie while simultaneously claiming he's "writing up whatever is on his mind" seems weird to me. | ||
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RemedySC
Canada176 Posts
On October 02 2012 21:34 Alsn wrote: If you don't mind, considering that your own scum hunting has consisted of only attacking people who were already suspicious, just who do you think are scum in the case I turn out to be town? In fact, I'd like RemedySC to respond to this question as well, since he has also only been making "safe" plays so far. I don't see any reason for why people would be excused from answering my questions at this point, especially considering that I'm probably about to be lynched. If your motives are pure, explain yourselves. I don't really like that question. I can only speculate in who my top reads would be if you turned up town. That is to say I don't think you're town right now. I'll answer who my other scum reads are though. Corrosion was up there. His posting doesn't strike me as a newbie town. His answers were too vague and lacked explanation. I would hope a newbie town would put more thought into his posts. He then left without addressing my concern, and now not sure what to make of it. Ill have to give Shady a chance before I make my verdict. Debears is up there, and after Darth's post I am seeing him to be more scummy than town. He would be my very next choice. Omni was Up there, but he has given my some reasonable answers. Still, I am not clearing him of being town yet. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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