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@zbo
I'm gonna try to do this from my phone.
EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make.
When did i have a FOS against djo? You put this under the section against djo.
Another thing i want to address is your assumption that early d1 posts and cases carry a lot of weight. They don't.my cases against you and djo were based on the suspiciousness of your posts. They weren't full on you're scum in depth cases. Besides, people change their minds a bit on d1.
The next thing i want to address is your assumption on the weight and meaning of a fos. To me, a fos is a heads up that Im suspicious of you qnd ill be watching. It doesnt necessarily mean I'm gonna make a huge case on you.
Finally, i want to address your assumptions of what townies do d1. As a townie, i have no idea who is what. Its confusing as hell. Why wouldnt i change my mind and explore more than kush d1. There are more than 1 scum.
How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game.
Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1?
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On September 29 2012 06:44 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:39 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On September 29 2012 06:33 kushm4sta wrote:
sdm you make no sense. I tried hard not to make scumslips last game. this game I did not. because I am not scum.
I don't know if any of you guys have had this experience but when everyone wants to lynch you and you are definitely going to get lynxhed, it just feels like why am I going to waste my time writing cases and making arguments for this shitty town. that's gonna kill me anyway.
I'm actually starting to hope I get lynched to teach town a lesson.. all scums put your votes right here. easiest d1 ever I hope you guys win. Pointing out another scum slip at this point seems kind of redundant, but anyway, what the fuck? We're only like 24h into the game and you've got only 2 votes. Why would you give up at this point? You're being so anti-town it'll be hard for anyone not to vote on you, but if you shape up there's still a lot of time. Anyway, really need to get some sleep now. I'm out. How is that a scumslip? Also, you chose to stick with "I think kush has a better case" while not even mentioning the shitbomb I've thrown against debears. Care to shed a comparative light and tell us why you think a meta based lynch is better than a inconsistent scumhunting-based one?
I don't get how you look at the case made against Kush and think it's just meta based. There's meta + 2 significant scum slips + whatever you want to call his blatant anti-town posts.
My initial problem with with case against was that in every single post of yours you were pushing the fact that he defended my introductory post:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 14:26 Z-BosoN wrote:@debearHave you ever heard about instigating discussion? You know, getting people to talk? I don't like how you defended SDM. You stated your views on lurkers, so that means you must agree that this type of discussion has some validity: Show nested quote +-- snip --
Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. Yet, you don't address SDM's blatant "I don't give a crap about policy lynch discussion's" stance? Seems rather odd to me.
##FoS debears On September 28 2012 15:36 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 14:43 debears wrote:
@darth
When did I say stop going after him? I said wait for him to respond.
You can be convinced he's scum, but you're making a huge deal out of it early in the game. multiple red texts with the word scum. Got your point.
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum.
@z-boson
If you haven't realized yet, I played with SDM last game. I know where he stands with lurker policy. If you haven't noticed, darth doesn't like them either. Why? Cuz they usually go nowhere fast.
Why are you so focused on lurker discussion when there are other things going on?
Nice FOS btw. I make a case on you and you fail to respond to half of it. I don't care who you've played with. You make it a point to say your view on lurkers. You defend him for absolutely no reason, when his views implicitly contradict yours. If you were townie, I wouldn't think this to be a priority for you.
I am not focused on lurker discussion, I am focused on the inconsistency you've presented.
The issue of "Lurker policy" is not what is at hand. The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. It feels extremely forced right now, as townies are supposedly scouring the thread for blood. That's why the FOS.Regarding your "case", it seems to me like the only think you've got going is my general usefulness. And I already said it in form of a question, but now I'll answer it more bluntly so you can't dismiss it: I am instigating discussion. Read all my posts and see if that's what I'm trying to accomplish. On September 28 2012 23:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +That argument right there is what I'm talking about, you essentially say that he should have kept his mouth shut instead of calling you out, yet at the same time saying town should be out for blood, which is exactly what he has been doing in my view. So in essence, you are actually encouraging people to not chime in on things they find odd. Intentional or not, that's just very anti-town behaviour. No, I "essentially" said that In my opinion it made more sense for him to attack SDM rather than to defend him. I also said that his defense felt very "forced" and unnecessary as a townie. You can agree and you can not agree, but saying I told him to "shut up" and am discouraging conversation is indeed a stretch. Show nested quote +In particular, I would like you to clarify why you felt the need to bash SDM's introductory post. It does not strike me as very odd that one would like there to be more than just lurker policy to talk about after declaring that he is going to be away from the thread for quite some time(sleep + uni would probably mean something like 15+ hours). Is it so wrong to wish for there to be other things to discuss? It seems to me you are just jumping on anything you can find in order to try and look town. Give us some real analysis, give us some proper motivations behind your posting that isn't contradictory. What the fuck? I bashed it because I wanted him to respond to it, and I did not like his post. Again, you are stretching. He gave off the feeling that he loathed lurker policy discussion, and stated implicitly that people shouldn't lurk. I agree with both of these statements, but I don't like the way he said it (i.e. "fuck lurker policy, I hate it so much that I'll be gone for the next 15 hours"), and thus I questioned him for it. I didn't make a case, I didn't even make a FOS. I don't know why people are bitching so much about an attack against someone who said that he has to "go to the university".The underlined part is a bunch of crap. The "contradiction" you spotted is completely far-fetched, basing itself on the fact that I wanted debear to shut up, which as I've explained above is also a stretch. If your case against me is what you call "real analysis", then I could have the time of my life making cases, as I can just twist everything people say and use it as arguments for a case. On September 29 2012 02:25 Z-BosoN wrote:@AlsnI already answered that. You are bieng dense. @debearsI missed that second post, though it further strengthens my case against you. You do not find it odd that he dismisses lurker policy talk and then, explicitly tells us his views on lurkers, thus indulging in this talk? And yet you find that post as a defense for him? Show nested quote +Finally, instigating discussion does not mean making worthless posts with only questions and no analysis, posts calling out people for lurking way too early in the game, attacking people who said they would be afk early in d1, and FOS someone when you aren't reading the thread thoroughly. Overall, you are causing confusion by pointing you finger for bad reasons. That isn't helping us. Sorry, my scummy friend, but observe how my post drew you and Alsn out in discussion. I still eagerly await his answer, but it certainly was not worthless. You are bitching about a question I asked SDM. I didn't file a case on him, I didn't FoS him, I questioned him. I did NOT call him out for lurking. YOU fail to read, and now you are waaaaaaay too defensive about a question that didn't even concern you. Alsn presented the same defensiveness, but not on the same level as you and on a way that is much more townie-looking than yours.Also, the "irony" you've presented is without merit. I agree that the reasoning for my questioning of SDM is a bit far-fetched, but I absolutely did not use it as an argument as to why he is scummy. Don't get the facts distorted. The only FoS I have so far is on you. On September 29 2012 03:46 Z-BosoN wrote:
debears, my case against you is not OMGUS. That's a dumb thing to say, granted I've explained to you why I find you scummy.
I didn't call stutters out for lurking. I talked to him because I've played with him before, and conveyed my will that he should post more than he did in XXIV, because he makes decent posts, or at least made them in XXIV, as a townie. It's more of an "acknowledgement" towards someone I've already played with.
I didn't call him out for being afk. I attacked SDM because of HOW he said he would be afk, as if he was blatantly avoiding posting because of his hate on lurker policy talking. AS IF. Which is why I've questioned him.
I'm also being very clear here. I'm not pushing a case against SDM. I'm pushing a case against you, again, because I didn't find your reaction towards SDM natural at all.
Answering SDM shortly.
His flip-flopping on Kush and Djo basically gets no mention at all. At the point of your FOS, inconcistency #2 hadn't even happened. What you're presenting now is different and looking past your weird "mod warning case" it holds a lot more merit. I think the case needs to be trimmed down to the essentials. Right now it's all over the place, a lot of points are just repeated and some arguments I don't get at all.
Anyway, what I find weird about Debears' explanations:
1. Debears says he doesn't want a one-sided Kush lynch, yet he's the one putting in the 4th vote, putting him way ahead of anyone else. Debears, if you were concerned about a one-sided d1, why so quick on switching? The obvious scum motivation would be protect Kush while keeping his back free (at this point it really looks like Kush is flipping red). He doesn't push the case until the lynch is inevitable, then he quickly jumps the wagon. The potential town motivation is more unclear.
2. The second is Debears' explanation of the Marv scum slip. He says he thought Djo should contact "the coaches", but it's clear the coach he suggested was Marv. That's not changed by the fact that he's:
On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:
Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great
In my mind these are good reasons to be suspicious of Debears. We most certainly need to push for more information from other players as well though. If XXVII thaught me anything it was that I have a tendency to get way overconfident in my reads.
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kushm4sta has been lynched! No more posting until the night post.
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On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote:
I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red.
He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc.
This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me.
I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it.So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage.
I disagree with this. Yes, it is suspicious, but not nearly as bad as Kush's. It definitely merits looking into, but compare the differences. I would reason it is equally likely to be a scum slip compared to a townie. Kush's slip called someone town (not his normal meta to refer to everyone as town) on someone he was accusing of being scum. Debears told someone to PM marv for help. Even if he was scum I think it'd be more likely that his reasoning for saying Marv isn't to tell Djo exactly who to pm as to come off as town himself by referencing that he has the town coach.
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ebwop sorry I was typing that and didn't see the time
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Night Post
![[image loading]](http://www.avidly.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/moby-dick.jpg)
News of prplhz's death eventually spread across the land. Tales were told and songs were sang in all the taverns about the enigmatic prplhz and his band of strange followers. The tales varied from place to place, and nobody seemed to agree on exactly what prplhx's quest was all about. Some stories had him in search in fortune, some in search of power, and some in search of ancient secrets. Among the less savory towns, the common story was that prplhz was an old magician who upon reaching old age, had begun to delve into the occult.
Back on their ship, tensions were high amoung the group and there was one....character who immediately recieved the most suspicion. His name, rather, it's name, was Moby Dick. Moby was acustomed to being attacked and chased his entire life so this new development was at first of no concern to him. Prplhz's group was out for blood... but Moby hoped that his past experience in fighting off his attackers would allow him to survive yet again.
However, today was not going to be a repeat of past history and Moby finally broke and gave into the pressure. He spent his last living moments realizing that he should have followed the advice of his elder mentor whale and not continued to attack giant boats lined with harpoons. As he started to bleed red blood, everyone wondered how this fearsome creature had managed to survive his whole life with the multitude of harpoons that had been lodged into his sides over the years.
kushm4sta, as Moby Dick the Mafia Goon, has finally been harpooned to death!
Lesrah has failed to vote! We are looking into getting a replacement.
Flavor is just flavor. We are now in the Night Cycle. There are 24 hours left until the start of Day 2. Make sure to pm your night actions to both prplhz and I before the night is over! Deadline is at 20:00 GMT (+00:00)
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
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On September 29 2012 05:50 Z-BosoN wrote:
corrosion, some issues with your post.
3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta.
I considered the possibility of both being scum early on but if both were scum, I see no reason whatsoever for Kush's scumslip. So I'm now saying that Darth is close to being confirmed town. This is something town should keep in mind during N1 and D2. It would be a spectacular bus if they did this on purpose. The only reason I can see for doing that, would be if Kush had slipped earlier in the thread. I do not think so but if someone wants to look into it, go ahead. I'm not going to spend my time on that.
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Grats DP 
I'm glad that he actually implored to get lynched with his "Why would I help a town that wants him dead?" and his insult posts.
I've actually read some of his filter this past hour, from XXVII, and I certainly hope he becomes more humble after this.
SDM, it is true what you say. I did not mention anything but his defense of you, and at the moment I really did think that it seemed scummy. I wanted to make a proper case on him, so I did a lot of reading on debears filters and realized there was more to it I hadn't yet seen. I made this clear in my case against him.
Anyways, my view on the game.
DP is pretty much town. I highly, highly doubt that it was an elaborate scheme to insta-bus a mafia member this early in the game. It's also consistent with my meta-read on him, he's playing much more like XXIV than LVII.
I have a town read on SDM. His post accusing kush which had some validity and a lot of meta analysis would be really unnecessary from a scum point of view. His latest post concerning me was quite down-to-earth and showed he is being attentive to the thread.
My top scum read is - you guys guessed it - debears, for all the reasons stated earlier.
@debears
I'm done with you for now, and I think you would agree that right now it's best to shift the town focus, yes? Read below.
On September 30 2012 04:58 debears wrote:@zbo I'm gonna try to do this from my phone. Show nested quote +EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make.
When did i have a FOS against djo? You put this under the section against djo. I misspoke. Not a FOS, but a case against him.Another thing i want to address is your assumption that early d1 posts and cases carry a lot of weight. They don't.my cases against you and djo were based on the suspiciousness of your posts. They weren't full on you're scum in depth cases. Besides, people change their minds a bit on d1. It's how they change their minds that concern me. There is nothing between your two posts in the thread that can even begin to ward off suspicionThe next thing i want to address is your assumption on the weight and meaning of a fos. To me, a fos is a heads up that Im suspicious of you qnd ill be watching. It doesnt necessarily mean I'm gonna make a huge case on you. Finally, i want to address your assumptions of what townies do d1. As a townie, i have no idea who is what. Its confusing as hell. Why wouldnt i change my mind and explore more than kush d1. There are more than 1 scum. You definitely can explore more than one person. But I'm tired of repeating myself of why I find you scummy, I believe I've made that clearHow am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game. Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1?
Right I have you pegged as scum. You've done a piss poor job at defending yourself (in my opinion) and let us leave it at that.
You have a case on me. You think I'm scum. Now that kush is confirmed scum, there is, in your view, one other scum besides me.
I don't think that our exchange will go anywhere, this is getting highly redudant. So I propose, for the night, a slight change in how town is evolving.
I've taken a look at Alsn's lurker lists filters and found some interesting things. Out of those four, who do you think would be the third scum, assuming it's one of them?
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I still say we dodged a bullet on this one. I don't think it was such a clear cut case until the last few hours, simply because he stopped defending himself and even then, a townie may have given up as well, although probably not without pointing fingers somewhere. If anything, I don't think the slip alone was enough to base a lynch on, although I think I've made myself pretty clear about that already.
That being said, this was definitely a win, I agree with the sentiment that Darth is leaning heavy town at this stage, but unfortunately we don't really have the ability to confirm anyone else. Everyone who jumped the wagon against kush after the slip could just as well be scum as town since we have no way of telling when the bussing began. The only other player who spoke out against kush with any force before the slip was Debears, and he did so in a pretty indecisive manner which neither confirms nor denies his intentions towards kush at that stage.
So while I don't agree that it was the best choice at the time, I think we should be happy with the fact that Darth was as inquisitive as he was before the slip granting us the benefit of a now near confirmed townie.
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On September 30 2012 05:04 Stutters695 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote:On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote:
I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red.
He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc.
This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me.
I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it.So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. I disagree with this. Yes, it is suspicious, but not nearly as bad as Kush's. It definitely merits looking into, but compare the differences. I would reason it is equally likely to be a scum slip compared to a townie. Kush's slip called someone town (not his normal meta to refer to everyone as town) on someone he was accusing of being scum. Debears told someone to PM marv for help. Even if he was scum I think it'd be more likely that his reasoning for saying Marv isn't to tell Djo exactly who to pm as to come off as town himself by referencing that he has the town coach. I suppose. I didn't intend to say that it was equally damning/not damning, only that the slip(if it is one) is the same type. Using the word "townie" to describe a person if you know them to be town is in my mind the same thing as giving someone the name of the town coach, if you know that he is town.
Yes, I suppose there might be a few more plausible explanations for debears' statement, but either way no one can trust them since only debears knows what his intentions were, so it's a moot point. I was just a bit surprised that there hadn't been as much of an outcry about it as kush's slip.
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On September 30 2012 05:37 Z-BosoN wrote:
I've taken a look at Alsn's lurker lists filters and found some interesting things. Out of those four, who do you think would be the third scum, assuming it's one of them? Was that a question directed to me? Or to everyone in general?
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EBWOP: And by third scum, I'm assuming that you mean you are convinced that debears is scum?
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Or oh, I see now that you meant debears. Nevermind, got distracted by the bolded text. 
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It was directed @ debears. Also, please read. It's pretty clear that I'm asking debear's view on the third scum, granted that he assumes I'm the second.
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Hello guys !
I'm not heading to my room drunken once again and I feel really happy about kush's flip.
I would like people to focus more on corrosion than debears because corrosion tired to cast a scummy shadow on Darth while deabears looks more genuine.
Game is not over yet but I have to say GG 
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Why did i write not drunken...
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On September 30 2012 05:16 corrosion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:50 Z-BosoN wrote:
corrosion, some issues with your post.
3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta.
I considered the possibility of both being scum early on but if both were scum, I see no reason whatsoever for Kush's scumslip. So I'm now saying that Darth is close to being confirmed town. This is something town should keep in mind during N1 and D2. It would be a spectacular bus if they did this on purpose. The only reason I can see for doing that, would be if Kush had slipped earlier in the thread. I do not think so but if someone wants to look into it, go ahead. I'm not going to spend my time on that.
Yeah, Darth is basically confirmed town as far as I'm concered. I'm not even sure what you're saying here (bolded). Care to explain?
I agree looking into the more lurky players is a good idea. I've gone through their filters and there are a couple of scummy things that pop out. My problem is most of those scummy thigs could be explained by simply being newbie play and at this point hesistant making a case out of it. I still urge all of you to up your posting, because at this point I'm having a hard time differentiating scummy newbie town and scummy newbie scum. I can see why the amount of posts today has been low after Kush's blow up, but we can't afford it to remain low.
Anyway, it's getting late again.
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On September 30 2012 06:09 Djodref wrote:
I would like people to focus more on corrosion than debears because corrosion tired to cast a scummy shadow on Darth while deabears looks more genuine.
I agree we should take the focus off of Debears, as Z-BosoN did a fair job of outlining the points against him. But why Corrosion? I realize he opposed the fact that Darth was so heavily attacking Kush, but I don't think he was casting him in a "scummy shadow". His case against Darth was based on nothing, really; just the fact that he thought pursuing the scum-slip and ignoring everyone else was a poor idea.
I don't read Corrosion as scum at all. And Debears in no way looks more genuine than him.
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EPT
