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On September 18 2012 09:38 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:35 iamperfection wrote:On September 18 2012 09:35 Hapahauli wrote:On September 18 2012 09:30 iamperfection wrote:you case on prplhz is shit. a fucking meta case on 1 post come on. Although i dont think that was the point of your case i think the purpose was to drive discussion which it has done. Kudos to you. The purpose of my random lynch was an attempt to drive some discussion. I had already discussed with marv after my previous game in which palmar suggested a random lynch in order to drive discussion on day 1. Thats why i find it extremely wierd that marv didnt think it was random when i had already spoken with him that i would do it in my next game. On September 18 2012 06:46 marvellosity wrote:
P.S the whole point is that iamp's suggestion wasn't random, so we already have a liar. LAL? I say we respect his wishes. ## Vote Marvelosity Geebus why are you flipping out? what? " you case on prplhz is shit. a fucking meta case on 1 post come on." Seems very unnecessarily critical/harsh/attacking. Like I don't think his case is good either, but that's just over the top and scummy imo.
he is a big boy. i dont think he will lose sleep over it.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
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On September 18 2012 09:39 Blazinghand wrote:
lol hapa
wat? I find those things can be scumtells. Walk into the thread, "LOL UR CASE SHIT" doesn't strike me as particularly townie.
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On September 18 2012 09:39 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:37 iamperfection wrote:On September 18 2012 09:36 Mementoss wrote:On September 18 2012 09:30 iamperfection wrote:you case on prplhz is shit. a fucking meta case on 1 post come on. Although i dont think that was the point of your case i think the purpose was to drive discussion which it has done. Kudos to you. The purpose of my random lynch was an attempt to drive some discussion. I had already discussed with marv after my previous game in which palmar suggested a random lynch in order to drive discussion on day 1. Thats why i find it extremely wierd that marv didnt think it was random when i had already spoken with him that i would do it in my next game.On September 18 2012 06:46 marvellosity wrote:
P.S the whole point is that iamp's suggestion wasn't random, so we already have a liar. LAL? I say we respect his wishes. ## Vote Marvelosity Well, that means it isn't random because it was pre-meditated and thought out. Sooo, yeah. Believe it or not it did randomly come out as marv. So what are we actually supposed to gain from this random voting? o.O
The normal explanation is that the whole thing is an exercise at drumming up discussion and getting posts to look at. PROPOSING a random lynch, saying we should RNG a lynch on someone, maybe setting up a method to do so --> everyone responds to that and you sift through their posts.
However, once you say that, people immediately know you aren't serious, and it's no longer useful. Palmar's got a post on it...maybe in iGrok's Good Clean Old-Fashioned Mafia? It was referenced in Bureaucracy as well, because he proposed it again.
I assume there are some other things you could do with it, but that's generally what you're supposed to get from it - if you don't propose a particular target right off the bat, but random lynch itself, then you generate discussion IF people are willing to discuss it. Mostly they aren't, especially after Palmar's explanation. Stating exactly who you want to vote and calling it "random" is different, but in some ways seems like an evolution of pure RNG lynch - change things up so it's not the same stale option, generate discussion.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
Oh yeah I agree I just think it's funny, here I'm working on a chart one sec
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On September 18 2012 09:42 Blazinghand wrote:
Oh yeah I agree I just think it's funny, here I'm working on a chart one sec
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RPNf2.png)
OK obviously this isn't an accurate representation of what you think, since it's more HOW people react that what their reaction is that determines scumminess (ie you could have a weak, well-reasoned reaction or a strong, well-reasoned reaction). The purpose of this chart is that you're framing your critique of these players wrong. The problem isn't that iamperfection reacted too strongly to my case, it's HOW he reacted too strongly. After lurking and being called out for it by me, after I've moved my vote off prplhz, THEN he strongly condemns my case (without really great reasoning) with swear words.
This is why iamperfection's reaction is bad. it's not that he strongly disagrees with my case-- after all, you did as well-- it's HOW he agrees. it's phony.
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On September 18 2012 09:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:42 Blazinghand wrote:
Oh yeah I agree I just think it's funny, here I'm working on a chart one sec OK obviously this isn't an accurate representation of what you think, since it's more HOW people react that what their reaction is that determines scumminess (ie you could have a weak, well-reasoned reaction or a strong, well-reasoned reaction). The purpose of this chart is that you're framing your critique of these players wrong. The problem isn't that iamperfection reacted too strongly to my case, it's HOW he reacted too strongly. After lurking and being called out for it by me, after I've moved my vote off prplhz, THEN he strongly condemns my case (without really great reasoning) with swear words. This is why iamperfection's reaction is bad. it's not that he strongly disagrees with my case-- after all, you did as well-- it's HOW he agrees. it's phony.
i could of just restated all of hapas reasoning but that would have been scummy 2 now wouldnt it.
plus you asked me what my thoughts were on the case so what does you moving your vote off him so what does that have to do with anything.
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Your chart looks like some kind of freudian slip/goatse mashup.
First pudding, then waffles and a goatse knockoff. I'm watching you.
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Well tbh, you could make that entire chart red - I lynched goodkarma in one game because I thought his play was "too clean" =P
But back to iamperfection, I'm definitely leaning scummy to him for now. I can't yet discount him just being plain pissed that you voted for him (a townie OMGUS type thing), but the sudden severity of it all is just really strange.
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On September 18 2012 09:54 Hapahauli wrote:
Well tbh, you could make that entire chart red - I lynched goodkarma in one game because I thought his play was "too clean" =P
But back to iamperfection, I'm definitely leaning scummy to him for now. I can't yet discount him just being plain pissed that you voted for him (a townie OMGUS type thing), but the sudden severity of it all is just really strange.
Answer this, why would scum make their first post that? It obviously wouldn't do anything towards getting Marv lynched. It would only bring negative attention towards himself.
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On September 18 2012 09:55 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:54 Hapahauli wrote:
Well tbh, you could make that entire chart red - I lynched goodkarma in one game because I thought his play was "too clean" =P
But back to iamperfection, I'm definitely leaning scummy to him for now. I can't yet discount him just being plain pissed that you voted for him (a townie OMGUS type thing), but the sudden severity of it all is just really strange. Answer this, why would scum make their first post that? It obviously wouldn't do anything towards getting Marv lynched. It would only bring negative attention towards himself.
First post as in the rando lynch thing? Well that's not indicative of his alignment as far as I'm concerned, considering he mentioned it was pre-planned.
What I find strange is his opinion on BH's case. Flips out very suddenly, and I'm currently reading it as scummy in context of the lack of contributions he's had so far. I'll need much more to vote him though.
Top scumread's still U btw.
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On September 18 2012 09:55 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:54 Hapahauli wrote:
Well tbh, you could make that entire chart red - I lynched goodkarma in one game because I thought his play was "too clean" =P
But back to iamperfection, I'm definitely leaning scummy to him for now. I can't yet discount him just being plain pissed that you voted for him (a townie OMGUS type thing), but the sudden severity of it all is just really strange. Answer this, why would scum make their first post that? It obviously wouldn't do anything towards getting Marv lynched. It would only bring negative attention towards himself.
people that defend me frighten me.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 18 2012 09:55 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:54 Hapahauli wrote:
Well tbh, you could make that entire chart red - I lynched goodkarma in one game because I thought his play was "too clean" =P
But back to iamperfection, I'm definitely leaning scummy to him for now. I can't yet discount him just being plain pissed that you voted for him (a townie OMGUS type thing), but the sudden severity of it all is just really strange. Answer this, why would scum make their first post that? It obviously wouldn't do anything towards getting Marv lynched. It would only bring negative attention towards himself.
so that people like you would go "he must be town because scum would never do this!"
hmm?
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HEY GUYS
Sorry it took you so long. So, are you familiar to the Zephirdd Rule®?
This is how it works.
"The person that thinks the bullshit from a first post to be scummy is almost certainly scum."
Maybe my english here isn't perfect. Anyways, we had our pretty iamperfection throwing his random vote right? Yeah that's some bullshit.
Then we got a series of responses from players all dismissing the random vote, but one of them rings my bells:
On September 18 2012 06:40 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:32 iamperfection wrote:
I randomly suggest a lynch of Marvelosity.
Your guys thoughts? Policy lynching one of the best town players day 1 =/= good idea. Like I'm all for policy lynching marv if he's alive past Night 3 (he's basically an auto N1/N2 NK for mafia if he's town), but that's about it. I propose a less-randomly decided lynch against iamperfection. Thoughts?
This is the only player at that point that decided to use this random lynch as a reason to vote iamperfection(even if he doesn't actually vote him). So right now, my first reaction is that Hapahauli is trying to take them guitars from da band.
But zeph this is bullshit!
There are a couple(many) games where this interaction works, with several players. What happens is that scum is eager to be productive, but they end up going too far and purposing a lynch over something that is, and should be, a null tell.
Then, as we get deeper into this notably short and full of content day 1(props to spam-BH), Hapahauli is the first guy to defend prplhz!
On September 18 2012 07:04 Hapahauli wrote:
... or it's not obvious at all, and it's a typical bad D1 case making insane meta connections with barely any samplesize?
If you're pressuring him or whatever, cool, but the case is in no way "damning" or "TOO obvious." In fact, I'd expect scum to be the people most willing to be jumping on BH's case without so much as a thought. Namely austinmcc and mementoss
How does he defend prplhz? "Oh it's just bad play. hey maybe we should look at these two other players instead".
A town player can never know if another player is just playing badly. A scum player, however, always does.
I've done that countless times as scum. Dismissing a case on a townie by saying he isn't playing optimally, but not considering the fact that it could be a scum play.
"The people most willing to jump on BH's case" are people who just agreed with a case that was just built early on. The thing about strong cases(I say BH had a strong case at that point) is that when you are scum and you recognize a case as a strong one, you will try to defend that townie in order to gain cred post-flip. The earlier you do it, the better, and if he is never lynched that townie will at least like you for a while.
Hapahauli's main argument against BH's case is the sample size, where BH basically covered three months worth of games. Meta is not a productive argument when you go much farther back(I'd argue that three months was too much), and he says BH would need more research to have a good case.
This is asking a town player to do his job. A town player would search into prplhz's meta and dismiss BH's case with his own arguments instead, or would be convinced after searching into prplhz's meta. Instead, he just sits and lazyfully tries to look like he is contributing(he is arguing with the most vocal townie ever), while he is in fact doing nothing!
The fact that Hapahauli is still arguing that iamperfection's first post was scummy just worsens it. This means he is actually defending the thought that posting random bullshit to generate discussion in some way to be a scum tell, when it's neither.
So yeah, I got my target.
##Vote hapahauli
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Zeph - are you reading the game at all? Why is it that in every game I play, someone makes a horribad case on me Day 1?
Your "case" is based on two things:
1) That I voted iamperfection based on his random vote. This is false
2) "Defending" prplhz - this is misleading
#1
On September 18 2012 10:00 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:55 Mementoss wrote:On September 18 2012 09:54 Hapahauli wrote:
Well tbh, you could make that entire chart red - I lynched goodkarma in one game because I thought his play was "too clean" =P
But back to iamperfection, I'm definitely leaning scummy to him for now. I can't yet discount him just being plain pissed that you voted for him (a townie OMGUS type thing), but the sudden severity of it all is just really strange. Answer this, why would scum make their first post that? It obviously wouldn't do anything towards getting Marv lynched. It would only bring negative attention towards himself. First post as in the rando lynch thing? Well that's not indicative of his alignment as far as I'm concerned, considering he mentioned it was pre-planned.
What I find strange is his opinion on BH's case. Flips out very suddenly, and I'm currently reading it as scummy in context of the lack of contributions he's had so far. I'll need much more to vote him though.Top scumread's still U btw.
#2: I'm not defending prphlz. I didn't have an opinion on prphlz (and still don't btw). I just thought BH's case was bad, and that should be pretty clear from my filter.
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On September 18 2012 09:14 goodkarma wrote:
And prplhz has recently made a post that shows he is actually interested in scumhunting. It doesn't mean he's town, but given the case against him was largely based on meta, and his recent behavior (at least in my opinion) has been pro-town, I don't feel he's a good lynch candidate right now. This is why I give people a chance to discuss their viewpoints early, as otherwise I'd be vote swapping like a ridiculous amount through the first day and I don't feel this really helps at all.
What was it specifically about prplhz's post that you liked?
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also the point of bringing up a random lynch isn't so that people discuss whether or not the random lynch is a good idea. it's to see the reactions that people have to the chosen lynch target...
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On September 18 2012 09:38 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:35 iamperfection wrote:On September 18 2012 09:35 Hapahauli wrote:On September 18 2012 09:30 iamperfection wrote:you case on prplhz is shit. a fucking meta case on 1 post come on. Although i dont think that was the point of your case i think the purpose was to drive discussion which it has done. Kudos to you. The purpose of my random lynch was an attempt to drive some discussion. I had already discussed with marv after my previous game in which palmar suggested a random lynch in order to drive discussion on day 1. Thats why i find it extremely wierd that marv didnt think it was random when i had already spoken with him that i would do it in my next game. On September 18 2012 06:46 marvellosity wrote:
P.S the whole point is that iamp's suggestion wasn't random, so we already have a liar. LAL? I say we respect his wishes. ## Vote Marvelosity Geebus why are you flipping out? what? " you case on prplhz is shit. a fucking meta case on 1 post come on." Seems very unnecessarily critical/harsh/attacking. Like I don't think his case is good either, but that's just over the top and scummy imo.
let's look at this post for instance. This is a confirmation bias-kind of post, but it in no way means anything to IAMP's alignment. In fact, it is just another null tell. Yet for some odd reason that I can't think of, someone cursing at a case(made by BH of all people) is somehow over-the-top scummy
See this is the issue here: Hapahauli finds something on IMP's post and thinks it's scummy.
The funniest part of this all(that I just realized)? He never voted IMP! Even though he proposes imp's lynch twice(first after his random vote, then now by saying he is over-the-top scummy), he is set on mementoss. His reasoning is explained as mementoss being 'wishy-washy' on almost less evidence than BH himself!
Finally, dismissing a case = defending the player. If you are going to dismiss a case, you either provide solid evidence(more than 'this case is bad because it is not researched enough' even though it had 3 months worth of research) or you show why the attacked player is townie.
Oh and finally
1) That I voted iamperfection based on his random vote. This is false
Is NOT at all part of my case. I never, EVER, mentioned that you voted him. I mentioned that you proposed that he is a good player to be lynched after his BS from the first-post(which in turn leads you to be eligible to the Zephirdd Rule). Who is not reading?
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let's look at this post for instance. This is a confirmation bias-kind of post, but it in no way means anything to IAMP's alignment. In fact, it is just another null tell. Yet for some odd reason that I can't think of, someone cursing at a case(made by BH of all people) is somehow over-the-top scummy
See this is the issue here: Hapahauli finds something on IMP's post and thinks it's scummy.
It is a scumtell. What part of BH's post here do you not understand? Sure iamperfection could be townie but his lack of contribution so far combined with this is a scumtell.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=8#146
But seriously, you accuse me of having confirmation bias and then accuse me of being scum? That makes perfect sense.
The funniest part of this all(that I just realized)? He never voted IMP! Even though he proposes imp's lynch twice(first after his random vote, then now by saying he is over-the-top scummy), he is set on mementoss. His reasoning is explained as mementoss being 'wishy-washy' on almost less evidence than BH himself!
YOU ARE LYING AGAIN. I haven't voted IMP because mementoss is my top scumread. I have mentioned this here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=8#151
Finally, dismissing a case = defending the player. If you are going to dismiss a case, you either provide solid evidence(more than 'this case is bad because it is not researched enough' even though it had 3 months worth of research) or you show why the attacked player is townie.
Wrong again. I "dismissed" the case on the basis that it was a meta-read based on 6 of prplhz's posts within the first hour of the game. That much should be obvious and clear. Also, BH dropped his read on prplhz pretty quick, so we're not talking about an incredibly sound "3 months worth of research" meta case here.
Is NOT at all part of my case. I never, EVER, mentioned that you voted him. I mentioned that you proposed that he is a good player to be lynched after his BS from the first-post(which in turn leads you to be eligible to the Zephirdd Rule). Who is not reading?
You're not reading. Hell I think you're deliberately misrepresenting yourself now. Your "rule:"
"The person that thinks the bullshit from a first post to be scummy is almost certainly scum."
I criticized iamperfection's first post. I have NOT called it scummy. I have explicitly called it NULL in my filter.
You
Are
A
Liar
(or a really really bad townie - but I won't pursue that until I finish with mementoss and iamperfection)
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Ya know what I will pursue it. Why are you lying? Why are you blatantly misrepresenting my actions from my filter?
##Unvote
##Vote Zephirdd
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EPT
