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On September 20 2012 16:15 KillingTime wrote:
I obviously know that lynching me would have been a mislynch aswell. For me, I left the thread with 2 votes on debears, and several people who had previously felt that he looked scummy... and instead drazak got lynched. Herp derp - before I think too much about the endgame hour though I think we need to sort out this cubu/sharrant mason thing asap given that some are still not convinced. Obviously Cubu is not going to help.
Is it allowed to ask Sharrant to post a link to the mason quicktopic to prove his claim?
I am asking the mods first because I feel like it might not be, but it wasn't clear in the rules (it says you can post your role pm and the sample role pm makes no mention of not being able to post the quicktopic link to the thread if you choose)
In his defense he probably doesn't even know if he's town of mafia.
I'm eager to post my wall-o-text analysis of the mason situation, but I kind of want a response from Sharrant first.
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Guess I'm in the hot seat for now.
Note that I voted for cubu before he was revealed as a mason, and before I knew about the no-lynch possibility. Cubu is also a different breed than killing+drazak. The latter two made some posts, and I hoped that in days 2 and beyond they would be more active. I looked at cubu's filter and his posts from last game, and he didn't do anything at all. He isn't a lurker, he's a non-player. Meaning that, even if he's lynched and turns out to be town, nothing of value was lost. Whereas if killing+drazak flip blue we lose some contribution.
My statement that mafia had a big part in the lynch came off stronger than I intended, but I feel this way mainly because of the power mafia has in such a scenario. More on this below.
On September 20 2012 16:02 debears wrote:Show nested quote + Atreides- United States. September 20 2012 15:10. Posts 71 PM Profile Quote #
filter
I didn't actually know about the no-lynch until the mod posted about it. If I had, I would've suggested it quite a while ago. I'm assuming that voting for a no-lynch works the same way as voting for a lynch, in that we just need a majority of votes (and not every vote like you said). Maybe I'm wrong on this.
There weren't any exceptionally strong arguments against killer / drazak. The consensus was "eh, he's kinda scummy, and kinda lurking, and he's kinda the best option, let's kill him and see what happens".
So yeah, as a principle I'd support no-lynching (on day one only) versus doing a half-assed lynch on someone else. Where do you get that this was the consensus. There is a reason why they showed up as targets. Although they posted, their posts did not contain much. They voted for other players without stating their own reasons.
I understand why they are considered suspicious. My argument is that they aren't suspicious enough for a day 1 lynch. The reasons to vote them up weren't too strong to me.
On September 20 2012 16:02 debears wrote:
Is that why you wanted a no lynch?
I wanted a no lynch because I didn't agree with the panic vote. I just wanted to play it safe on day 1.
On September 20 2012 16:02 debears wrote:Show nested quote + The problem with choosing between killer and drazak is that, like I meant earlier, mafia has a lot of power here. If killer turns out to be mafia, his team can go for a drazak vote and the bandwagon easily follows because nobody has strong feelings one way or the other. The time constraint and confusion was really perfect for something like this. The problem with this logic is that you could have said the same for drazak if you don't look at the situation with hindsight. Drazak and Killing did similar things. In fact, any lynching can be due to mafia. Who do you feel is the most mafia right now? Also, mafia can essentially bandwagon on a no lynch also. A no lynch makes it alright for everyone to prevent taking sides on arguments "because no one has strong feelings one way or another". The mafia can hide behind it.
You're right in the first paragraph, and that's why I think it's so hard for town to have made the correct decision in the situation. Yes, mafia influences every lynch, but that effect is increased when the town is in chaos.
A no lynch would have been detrimental to mafia in such a situation because they can grab a free kill. Both killer and drazak were seen as suspicious lurkers by the majority, and their deaths as green wouldn't reflect that poorly on the accusers.
(This is the part I meant by see below) One thing I just thought of is that it's possible for both killer and drazak to be town, in which case mafia wouldn't really have to do anything at all as long as town decides to lynch one of the two. It's also possible that mafia was simply not active during the time. This is why I partially take back what I said.
The TL;DR of all this is that I just wanted to play it safe, and not lynch someone who had a decent possibility of being town. That's why I advocated a no-lynch. I don't agree with the idea that it "lets mafia hide" as you said.
I'm going AFK for several hours now.
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just woke up. I have a test today but after I will try to sort through this clusterfuck of a thread. for now just 1 thing.
@sonic you keep saying that you want to wait for a response from sharrant before you post this epic wall of text case. What exactly do you want him to address. Maybe you said it before but this thread recently has blown up. Is there a secific question you want him to answer or an issue you want him to address?
All this sharrant doubt seems really stupid to me. The only way sharrant is scum is if cubu is also scum. Therefore if sharrant was scum, a blue could identify one of them and boom we would have 2 scum. It makes no sense for scum to roleclaim mason like that.
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On September 20 2012 19:21 kushm4sta wrote:
just woke up. I have a test today but after I will try to sort through this clusterfuck of a thread. for now just 1 thing.
@sonic you keep saying that you want to wait for a response from sharrant before you post this epic wall of text case. What exactly do you want him to address. Maybe you said it before but this thread recently has blown up. Is there a secific question you want him to answer or an issue you want him to address?
All this sharrant doubt seems really stupid to me. The only way sharrant is scum is if cubu is also scum. Therefore if sharrant was scum, a blue could identify one of them and boom we would have 2 scum. It makes no sense for scum to roleclaim mason like that.
He could possibly have claimed Cubu (as town) hoping he wouldn't show up in the thread, at least before lynch. There's also a risk it's an epic super level and both are scum. Like I've said I find it both unlikely.
The question to address is thrawn's. Why he dropped the reads on thrawn and debear after getting to know the correct mechanics of the game.
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Arteilaitis, you think the chaos somehow was an opportunity for scum to excericise great power. That's completely false. When the variables of the game completely change within a few posts, scum needs to make a ton of decisions in a short time. They don't have time to discuss it in the Mafia QT, which is one of their big advantages. They don't have time to come up with a new plan. They will be faced with diffucult decisions, for example whether to go for a save or a bus a scum buddy. They need to figure out how it would make sense to act like town with very limited time to figure this out. Town just needs to act on their instinct*. For scum it's prime time for scum slips.
This is why the thread got so fucking empty all of a sudden. I know you, Killing, Jacob and Kush went poof when the heat got turned up, but there were probably more than that I haven't had the timecheck. Obviously it's likely some players had legitimate reasons for disappearing, but it's no coincidence so many players pulled the plug. Townies had no reason to leave the thread at that point, but scum had. That's why disappearing from the thread was scummy.
This brings me to you. Just 1 minute after deadline you show up with a claim. You're not just saying something like "it's possible that the mafia had a hand in it", but "it's obvious now that the mafia had a strong hand in it". This is really weird. How is this even possible if you hadn't followed the thread? If you followed the thread as town, I would've expected you to contribute at least something. Instead you wait, claim to have knowledge and make a strong claim just 1 minute after deadline that it was a bad lynch. It strikes me as scummy.
*That's not to say it was a good position for town, but it's not a tough spot because mafia is able to easily manipulating the situation.
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Ok so I slept done more on assigments and now have a break... I am not even sure what I was thinking this afternoon. 14 hour day into 4 hours of sleep followed by 8 hours of transport and classes fried my brain. (Also I was mildly frustrated due to a signal fault holding up the train for an extra 20 min) Nobody really called me out on this apart from the questions from sonic and thrawn but I thought I better clear it up so scum don’t jump on it later.
You say the only way sharrant is scum is if cubu is scum. I have to admit I feel I have made a mistake with my sharrant read but there is also as sonic said (and as I said before him) the chance he is scum hoping to get one town instead of just dying. (with cubu being town and the town he gets being drazak) However if we have a replacement then we probably don’t need to bother looking into this too much as this will either be confirmed or denied.
@sonic
When did I go poof? If it was before the lynch then there is an obvious reason. I listed even before any of this happened I have classes on this day at this time (I can bring up a time table if you really want...) If it was after the lynch I don’t have a reason apart from being really tired.
Also Chaos can be an opportunity for scum to exercise great power as well... You seem to forget they could arrange/create the Chaos in the QT and then put it into action when the time comes. (preemptive strike)It wouldn’t be easy but not as hard as you probably think. While it can and is at times really useful for town to role call late (although don’t do it right after I leave the thread kinda rubs me the wrong way{in regards to actually backing up the role claim that is}) but mafia can also be the ones creating it thus in some form of control.
However I do see the difference from role calling a few hours from the thread and 1 minute.... I will probably re-read the whole thread in the light of the lynch and considering I am not as tired now however considering it is night (in game) I might try and work on getting both my assignments done tonight(irl) and have more time tomorrow. That said I will still post tonight.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
sharky246 replaces Cubu, effective immediately.
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On September 20 2012 20:48 JacobStrangelove wrote:
@sonic
When did I go poof? If it was before the lynch then there is an obvious reason. I listed even before any of this happened I have classes on this day at this time (I can bring up a time table if you really want...) If it was after the lynch I don’t have a reason apart from being really tired.
Also Chaos can be an opportunity for scum to exercise great power as well... You seem to forget they could arrange/create the Chaos in the QT and then put it into action when the time comes. (preemptive strike)It wouldn’t be easy but not as hard as you probably think. While it can and is at times really useful for town to role call late (although don’t do it right after I leave the thread kinda rubs me the wrong way{in regards to actually backing up the role claim that is}) but mafia can also be the ones creating it thus in some form of control.
However I do see the difference from role calling a few hours from the thread and 1 minute.... I will probably re-read the whole thread in the light of the lynch and considering I am not as tired now however considering it is night (in game) I might try and work on getting both my assignments done tonight(irl) and have more time tomorrow. That said I will still post tonight.
I know you've claimed those reasonings way earlier. Killing and Art disappearing was more fishy. There are more, rethos seems to pull out as well. It's quite possible there was scum lurking while the shit storm started and then decided to continue doing so and of course I'm not claiming everyone who stayed is clean. Singling out player for this alone certainly isn't fair, but with the circumstances around Art in particular I think there's reason to question what he was doing.
And I agree about your second point. I was about to mention it but didn't, since it's very closely connected to Sharrant's mason claim, which I plan to post about later.
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Sup Sharky, you mason?
I don't envy the position you're jumping into here, but Sharrant just claimed ~2 hours before the d1 lynch that the two of you are masons. He did it to save his own ass. You have to confirm or deny this, but I'll give you some time to catch up on the thread for you to realize for yourself.
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Shark, please do it asap. This is the post where he claims.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Couple of last things - night post updated with the Final Vote Count, and you can find Day/Night posts linked at the top of the OP.
Also, if you're town and you're stuck with anything, do drop our town coach Hapahauli a PM, he's super-good and totes happy to help. That is all ^_^
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someone asked if people are allowed to post links to their mason qt, if not are they allowed to post the text contents of the qt?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 20 2012 21:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
someone asked if people are allowed to post links to their mason qt, if not are they allowed to post the text contents of the qt?
Absolutely no links to QTs may be given. Text contents may be pasted/written.
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OK - thanks  In that case, Sharrant please paste the contents of the quicktopic to-date into the thread & Sharky confirm that you are mason.
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Hello, i have been given permission to play this game as a substitute for another player. I've never played mafia before so yeah, i won't be very good.
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On September 20 2012 09:16 Atreides- wrote:I wasn't around after my last post, and I mixed up the voting deadline by an hour (thought it would be an hour from now, my bad).
On September 20 2012 15:10 Atreides- wrote:
I didn't actually know about the no-lynch until the mod posted about it.
Atreides, I'm not satisfied about the context of your 1-minute-after-deadline post. In that post you said a no-lynch would have been the best choice, and later when asked about the no-lynch thing you said you didn't know about it until a mod confirmed it as real in the thread. Which means that before you made that after-deadline post, you had been following the thread closely enough to see when marv confirmed no-lynch.
Marv's post happened at this time. However 14 minutes after marv's post Keirathi posted a vote count and specified the exact lynch time in big bold blue text. People had also been talking about lynch time because there was some confusion about it. So to me it looks like you really weren't reading the thread. You have also said that "weren't around after my last post" which reads as you saying you weren't reading the thread. Clarify the context of all that please.
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On September 20 2012 10:45 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 10:08 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On September 20 2012 10:00 thrawn2112 wrote:
kush it's not a good idea to go to bed angry, you will just wake up with the same poopy pants you wore to bed
I should feel bad because I pushed for a lynch on a player that I thought was scummy all game and then later lied to try and cover it up? Why do you think his mason status is such a sure thing? Your last post is pretty much just an omgus accusation.
I need to go back to take a really close look at his filter. But when you say this, what are you referring to? That you thought he was lying at the time? That you still think he's lying? Or is there anything you think he's said that is a confirmed lie at this point? both, thought it at the time and still think it now Here's why I think the mason claim is fabricated. Before he had revealed what the plan was, he had this to say about it: Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:54 Sharrant wrote: were my plan successful the information would still be 50/50 on proving mafia. Plan successful according to his explanation of the plan = he baits mason claims out of scum debears and scum thrawn, and because he is a mason he will have caught us lying because his experience of masons are that if there are more than 2 then they all share the same qt. Soooo where does the 50/50 part come into this? When he first threw out the 50/50 line I was thinking something along the lines of him being a cop and worrying about framers or godfathers and such. My imagined notion of his plan didn't make much sense to me, and with that 50/50 part his given explanation of his plan doesn't seem consitent from before he explanaied the plan and after he explained the plan. Then in that same post where he talks about the 50/50 stuff he also says that now he thinks debears and I are way less scummy. That isn't consistent with his earlier reads either. How does his supposed plan being destroyed by information from a mod make him think we are less scummy? The whole purpose of the plan in the first place was to catch scum lying... so if the plan won't work that means he has to drop his scumreads on me/debears? His next read on debears and I is that we are masons, remember this is after he said he pm'd the mod. He doesn't directly come out and say this but it is implied. So a short history of his reads on us are: He think's we're both scum. He tries to bait us into claiming mason. That plan won't work because of game mechanics. Therefore debears and I are no longer scum and we're now masons? There are no specific confirmable lies per se, but I just see a bunch of inconsistencies in how he talks about the plan from the time he first mentioned it to the time he finally explained it, and there are illogical transitions between his reads. Also, the Cubu mason claim just looks way too convienient... all throughout the last half of D1 he is asking us to trust him abhout things we have no possible way of confirming and if he's mafia then cubu is the safest townie to lie about. At the point when he dropped the cubu claim I didn't think and I don't think anyone else thought that cubu was going to ever post again.
Good morning, everyone!
@Thrawn
The part where the 50/50 comes in is because of the altered Mason mechanics. You could have claimed Mason, and I would've been liked "Fuck yeah, mafia" in the standard I'm used to (All Masons know each other). However, that post came out after I found out about the different Mason mechanics. So if you had claimed Mason all I could've done is gone "Fuck yeah, those guys actually could be Masons because they haven't really had a 3rd buddy, or they might be mafia together with a lurker" suddenly you claiming Mason was not the be all end all of catching you.
So suddenly you guys seemed a lot less scummy because it was actually possible you were both masons. I said before, I still wasn't sure about both of you. The fact that neither of you took the easy claim could have left you both as mafia that didn't want to take an easy out, or that only one of you is mafia so the claim is stupid and unsafe, or that neither of you are and the claim is unneeded.
Debears is still a slightly scummy read from me, last nights incident didn't really help my read on him. He wasn't particularly involved aside from in a swing in, swing out post. SDM, and Thrawn I have very strong reads on from that, you both easily could have pushed a bandwagon on me very hard, and it likely would have stuck. So neither of you strike me as red because you had the perfect opportunity to lynch a fairly active person claiming mason, and both dumped it.
Kush's read is less stable at this point. The same read applies to him, he quickly jumped in to help me out after I claimed, however he seems much more certain as to my actual alignment. I'm chalking this up solely to the fact that he doesn't think I'm dumb enough to try and pull this off from a scum perspective, rather than him being mafia and knowing my alignment. His posts immediately into the night phase were shaky though, that's given me pause in my read. I'll have to think more about it.
Mason chat away
Our topic was "to make out together baby"
Marvellosity- "This is masonQT for Newbie XXVII. Good luck!"
Sharrant- "Hey! So I guess this is our little "behind the bleachers" place, eh?
There've been lots of accusations of you not posting much, I'm not putting too much faith into them. Post when you can, I'll defend you when I need to, and let's figure out this shit. I already posted my case on Kush, my reads beyond that are weak. And even that one is fairly weak, but at least it's something to start with. "
Sharrant- "Hey, buddy, you've gotta get posting. You're being fixed up for a lynch, and I'd like to hear your insight on the playing field right now."
Sharrant- "I may as well post it here, I'm hoping only obs can see. The whole point of my decision to force a claim on debears is due to how buddy buddy he is with Thrawn. They're so on each other so hard that I assume they're mafia. But I've been dropping the hint for them to claim mason, so I want to force debears up on the hopes that he claims mason and we get two mafia out of it. They most likely won't and it will be a failed attempt, but it has at least helped me clarify reads on a few people. My biggest town reads right now are Sonic and Jacob. Biggest scum reads are Thrawn and debears."
Sharrant- "Bad news, apparently mason pairs cannot talk to other mason pairs like I am used to. So there is a chance they actually are masons. I'm dropping from them right now. You better post or else you're going to end up getting lynched. I can't keep ignoring you as a potential target without opening myself up to more suspicion."
Marvellosity- "FYI, only hosts can see this QT."
Sharrant- "Neat! I wasn't sure how it was set up. Thank you for the clarification. :-)"
Sharrant- "So, I've got a whole forum to myself. Whatever will I do with it."
Sharrant- "Honestly, any time you want to come into the game, that'd be cool. If you don't seem, I'm going to start walking around naked in this QT."
Sharrant- "Oops, I said seem when I meant soon."
Sharrant- "I'm literally wiping my balls on the submit message button right now. Touch it if you dare."
Sharrant- "If Cubu lives and gets replaced, I'm so sorry to the new mason. You didn't deserve the ballsweat on the message button."
I'm tempted not to post this part to preserve Marvellosity's honour, but what the hell.
Marvellosity- "I'm enjoying this tremendously.
*especially* the ball sweat."
Sharrant- "Then just you wait, if I'm trapped in here by myself for a few days there's going to be a lot more than just ball sweat on that button. You can bet on that, baby."
Sharrant- "What? I have to share my fortress with someone else too? I only want you!"
Marvellosity- "New player incoming  "
No, that isn't a novel about my budding romance with Marvellosity due to stockholm syndrome after being captured and put in the Mason QT, that is everything I've said in there up until now. And everything Cubu has said.
If you've got anything more you want answered after that, I'll be happy to. But make it quick, there's the potential that you only have 10 hours to ask. I'm going to do a more thorough read on everything that happened while I was away, a post will be up on that shortly.
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when did you first think I was scum?
the 50/50 thing makes sense
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@Thrawn
You became suspicious in my eyes when you refused to acknowledge debears buddying up to you as scummy in the slightest, and became scummy in my eyes when you seemed upset when people went after him. It was mainly the change in your posting style that suggested a link between you two. The reason I was happy to write that off as Mason afterwards is once that possibility was introduced, you going on the attack for him being accused makes a lot of sense. You can't rely on having 3 votes, you have to convince people, and you weren't particularly defensive about the accusations, just visibly upset.
Later you claimed Non-Mason, but by this point I had a much more town read of you which only increased as we got closer to the deadline for the reason I posted before, dismantling the easy bandwagon on a claimed green. Maybe that was a gamble on your part, he's green, let's go after an unknown quantity and hope he's blue, but that's very doubtful in my eyes.
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oh and can you repost and include time stamps for that qt post?
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EPT
