EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXII
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DarthPunk
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Nah, do it like me. Sleep through deadlines. Stay up for 30-36 hours and sleep for 12. Bawss status. I totally would but I have to juggle university at the same time hehe. | ||
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Would 06:00 AEST (+10:00) work better for everyone? That is 6am my time. But if that is good for everyone else I can work around it. | ||
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I think it does, I hope I don't suck at this as badly as I suck at SC2 lol. GLHF everybody!! <3 <3 <3 | ||
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The deadlines are at 6am my time so I will probably be inactive for a few hours after each and before because I will be asleep. Depending on the situation beforehand I can/will stay up for them but I really don't want that to be a regular thing. OK now that is out of the way I am going to go back and actually read what has happened in the thread since I went to sleep LOL. GLHF <3<3<3. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 07:43 Mordanis wrote: Rather than sitting in a circle and deciding whom to lynch based on who sing "Kum ba yah, My Lord" the most off key (what kind of villainous scum would do such a thing?), I think its time to begin the scumhunt. Anyways, I apologize in advance if this seems somewhat rushed. I want to get the hunt going as early as possible, and I feel we've wasted the first hour and a half. So without further ado, here comes (hopefully) the first case of the game: Mordanis's's case on Keirathi K (for some reason your name is really hard for me to type) began this game by virtually claiming Town RB. + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 05:41 Keirathi wrote: First things first: If we have a town roleblocker, I think its best not to use your role early. You generally have as much chance of hurting a teamate as you do a scum. I'm not saying to NEVER use it, but think carefully and only use it if you are reasonably sure that you are blocking a scum. Some policy discussion: Lynch All Liars - I'm of the opinion that there are very, very few cases where lying as a townie is beneficial to town. With that said, there ARE cases where it is a realistic option, so I think blanket policy lynching is a fairly bad thing. Case-by-case basis. Lynch All Lurkers - As much as lurking hurts town, I feel like at least in newbie games, lurking is almost guaranteed. I encourage everyone to try as hard as they can to avoid lurking sot hat we won't have to discuss this later. Lurking as a townie hurts town. Please don't do it. Again, case-by-case basis. Are all roleblocks notified, or only people with power roles? I've seen games where it works both ways, so best to clarify early. 1: Mr. K is VT, and he is trying to "take one for the team". He knows that the scum will see this post and read him blue, and he'll die tonight instead of a real blue. If this were to happen, he'd have helped town. If he gets lynched today, it'll be bad for town, but it will be deal-with-able. 2: Mr. K is actually townie RB. Perhaps he is trying to make his "claim" so obvious the scum will think option 1 is happening. Trying to hide out in the open. If he is killed during the night, we're in pretty bad shape. But if this option is the case and he's lynched today, we're in even worse shape, because he won't have used his power even once. That said, he implied that he wouldn't want to use it N1 anyway, so the options are virtually the same. 3: Mr. K is scum, and is trying to use this as means to get himself out of trouble. If he ever gets some heat brought to him, he just says "Dude, I basically claimed town RB, I don't think its a good idea to lynch me" The claim also puts pressure on any real blues to claim, and when everyone claims, a claim isn't worth anything. Basically, this post seems mildly non-protown, and it gives him a way to defend himself. Destabilizing town and giving yourself an extra cycle seems very scummy to me. If we lynch him today, we're off to a great start. And if this option is the case, scum aren't killing him tonight. Of these three, option 2 seems by far the least probable. So that being said, I think that right now Keirathi is the best candidate for lynching. Still, its pretty early so I don't think it would be wise in any way to commit right now. Last thing: I have to go to work now, and I'll be back in probably 5 hours (rakin in the cash makin pizza), just FYI. So after some policy discussion Mordanis makes his case against Keirathi. After some WIFOM we get to this - If he is killed during the night, we're in pretty bad shape. But if this option is the case and he's lynched today, we're in even worse shape, because he won't have used his power even once. So Keirathi is blue and we are in bad shape if he is NK/Lynched. but then we get to this: If we lynch him today, we're off to a great start. And this: So that being said, I think that right now Keirathi is the best candidate for lynching. Twice stating that Keirath is is our best lynch at the moment which is a direct contradiction to his other premise. he ends with this: I don't think it would be wise in any way to commit right now So after backflipping from his first premise (that it would be terribad for Keirathi to be NK and an even worse for us to mislynch him), and TWICE stating that Keirathi is our best Lynch. Mordanis decides that it isn't wise to commit right now after all. This post was WIFOM, contradiction and confusion. At best it is saying something while saying nothing. At worst it is a deliberate attempt of scum to mislynch their blue read day 1. Destabilizing town and giving yourself an extra cycle seems very scummy to me. Yeah it does doesn't it. FoS Mordanis | ||
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On July 27 2012 10:19 MrMedic wrote: I agree with DarthPunk Ok. Why do you agree? From what I have seen and read through the recommended links and lurking the I can't believe it's not themed Mini Mafia thread and Newbie Mini Mafia XXI, Discussion is very important. It allows us to make reads and is always beneficial for town. | ||
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On July 27 2012 10:35 goodkarma wrote: Hi all  This is my first game so be nice to me lol.I'm sorry I wasn't on earlier I had no idea this had actually started. I agree that lurking is bad, and to that end if there's a no-poster by the deadline that's where my first vote goes. I think it's been mentioned here before, but I would like to reaffirm the idea that no-lynch day one is not the best policy. Imho, doing such will just put us in a day one situation come day two. We really need to pressure those who aren't participating to post their thoughts, or face the consequences. I plan to follow up this post with my thoughts on who feels scummy, just as Shady Sands is, once the last "lurker" that wasn't me on this list posts, Ange777. One thing that I would like to mention tho is that while inactivity can't be tolerated having a high post count shouldn't necessarily be encouraged. It's the quality of the posts that matters, and that fresh content is brought to the table. +1 posts are absolutely useless and do the town no good, so please don't post them (MrMedic.... cough cough). Hi Goodkarma! <3<3<3 I think it's been mentioned here before, but I would like to reaffirm the idea that no-lynch day one is not the best policy. Totally agree. If we no lynch we gain very little information and are in almost the same boat the next day minus 1 town. I agree that lurking is bad, and to that end if there's a no-poster by the deadline that's where my first vote goes. Yes lurking hurts town. That being said I will not get behind a vote on a lurker just because. Always lynch scum. | ||
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On July 27 2012 11:54 Shady Sands wrote: I'm not sure we can use internal contradictions between Mordanis' three different points as evidence, given that they are illustrating three different "what-ifs". That being said, though, his logic as to why point #2 is the least likely and point #3 is the most likely doesn't hold water (or rather, doesn't exist), and each of his points are pretty farfetched. I'd say he's our best option for a day 1 lynch at this point, but to be extra sure, we should wait until Ange777 has had a chance to post as well, and Mordanis gets back from making pizzas and has had a chance to defend himself. Even if he flips green (which is likely, let's not get our hopes up here), his lynch will tell us a lot about who we should go after next, since people seem to have had strong reactions to both his proposal to go after Keir, his own lynching, and his arguments against policy lynching. -He posts 3 different scenario's on Keir which contradicted one another (he states these as a 'case', whatever). 2 of the 3 have Keir as a blue and the third as scum. Yet he still sees Keir as the best lynch. The case is completely confused and without a logical narrative, based on a 'virtual claim' by Keirathi that I honestly don't think is there. There is no reason whatsoever that I can think of to make a case with internal contradictions. Am I missing something here? -It is statistically likely that he will flip green. but you can say that about anyone. If you think he is town or not suspicious don't vote for him. Read filters, make a case etc. | ||
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On July 27 2012 12:44 Mordanis wrote: Keir is almost certainly green or red. Seriously? | ||
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Well he just Flatout denied it. So he isn't doing a very good job is he? I have to leave this short as I have class in half an hour. I should be back later. I look forward to reading through some more posts. <3 | ||
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I'll update with thoughts once I get through the thread and some filters. | ||
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On July 27 2012 19:07 Mordanis wrote: I just want to point out that if internal contradiction is grounds for lynching, I think pretty much everyone's dead D1. And I really do want to know why Alan is suspicious of me, because I see one mistake (over-pursuing my case on Keir), and I'd argue that this post is equally a mistake. So I wait patiently. Really? You have no idea why someone may be suspicious of you? The entire Keirathi case was terrible. It remains terrible. I reread mordanis' filter and looking back I don't even think he thought his case had any substance. Right from the get go you doubt yourself and the claim against Keirathi. I think that right now Keirathi is the best candidate for lynching. Still, its pretty early so I don't think it would be wise in any way to commit right now.. Keir is almost certainly green or red. I have no idea which is more likely, but I think he is more likely scum than anyone else at this moment. Read my second post about his "claim" + Show Spoiler [spoilered for you convenience] +, and find for me one place where I explicitly say that we should lynch Keir. So for right now at least: ##Vote: Golbat Although you push your read you never commit yourself to it. As soon as you start taking heat from people you switch on to one of your accusers with no resolution to your kerathi case. You just walk away from it altogether and start throwing accusations at someone else. | ||
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First up some thoughts. Golbat I spent the majority of last night reading their filters trying to make sense of it. And it was seriously a mess. From the OMGUS accusations onward. Golbat flip-flops like it is going out of style. And Mordanis still uses a large amount of WIFOM to justify his arguments which just make it more difficult to understand what he is actually saying. One of mordanis' key arguments (claimed scumslip) against golbat was this On July 27 2012 11:31 Golbat wrote:I think that lynching a lurker day one is only a good idea if we have no reads on people who might be scum. As far as that goes for me, I already have an idea of who might be scum, so I won't get behind lynching a lurker today. While it is true that this may be used to hop on whatever bandwagon he wants without fear of reprisal. in the context of the conversation and a simple search through his filter says otherwise.On July 27 2012 09:15 Golbat wrote: As far as the game goes, Mordanis' post about Keir's post where he was "virtually claiming town RB" seems to be a pretty scummy thing to do. It didn't seem to me to be a secret claim of any sort, just a rules clarification. Even if it was a super-secret claim that he could use later, I wouldn't believe him if that was the only evidence he had. From what I've read elsewhere, that type of posting is classic scum behavior. Look like you're helping the town and trying to hunt scum, when in reality you're just blowing a townie's mistakes clear out of proportion to sow confusion and doubt. Not everyone has posted, so I don't yet want to commit to a vote, but I've got my eye on you Mordanis. Go read the thread. He was THE FIRST to cast suspicion onto Mord. Mordanis case is built upon the fact that he had insurance to jump on any bandwagon he wanted without fear of reprisal and then jumps on a bandwagon on him. Golbat almost immediately casts suspicion onto Mordanis, then states he may already have an idea of who may be scum. Yep, it seems like he was just backing up his previous claim of mordanis' scumminess. Mordanis On July 28 2012 02:40 Mordanis wrote: + Show Spoiler [Joking at Hosts] + On July 27 2012 22:23 marvellosity wrote: No, 1 day 7.5 hours roughly Edited to use ALL THE BLUE On July 27 2012 22:24 ghost_403 wrote: There's still over 24 hours until the voting deadline. OP says the deadline is at 22:00 GMT (+00:00) but I've used 21:00 GMT (+00:00) a few times, and I think that would work better for me. I'm going to change the deadline to 21:00 GMT (+00:00), unless you guys have any objections (if you do, PM them to me). I can see the next History Channel TV hit: Host Wars! Or maybe Semi-Truck-Driving-Host Wars! just to give it some originality :D Basically, in the space of 7 minutes, Golbat made excuses for his play, gives himself an excuse to lurk for over a quarter of the day cycle, flip-flops completely from thinking he was "very very wrong" about me to ostensibly implying that I'm the best target for a lynch. But if you add these posts to what he posted earlier, you see that Golbat hasn't really contributed anything. He talked policy, and then prepared to jump on a bandwagon. On seeing that it was incredibly early to jump on the bandwagon, he then jumps to save his townie cred. This is classic scum-play, posting a decent amount of stuff that people agree with, without contributing and having excuses to stall discussion about him. On the other hand, the whole thing where he flips about me about 29.4 times could be construed as indicative of terrified newbie play. I don't really buy this because there is really no contribution from him. All he's done is voiced opinions that others have already mentioned. There is no analysis, save one post where he points out that I over committed to talking about Keir. He even says that he's not the first to come to this conclusion. + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 13:06 Golbat wrote: You are REALLY fixated on asserting that Keir is trying to make others think he is. It seems to be that a lot of us disagree with you. For the life of me I can't understand why you're trying to get him lynched for attempting to teach whoever the Town RB is (if there even is one) how to play the role. It's an important thing to know, and might have prevented the Town RB from accidentally blocking the cop from using his power on one of the most important night phases of the game. This IS a newbie mafia after all, would you be doing the same thing if he told the vigilante not to shoot someone on night one? Mordanis goes from pushing golbats case and 'scumslip' heavily, to voting shady in the space of a post. We would assume that this sudden change of heart would come with some clear and strong arguements right? Wrong On July 28 2012 06:36 Mordanis wrote: I'm starting to get a really bad feeling about Shady. Remember his post that said that no game in 20 lynched scum D1? + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 09:02 Shady Sands wrote: So pretty much, I looked through about 20 mafia games and found not a single night one lynch resulting in a red kill. This suggests one thing: Day 1 scumhunting actually has a lower success rate than a random day 1 lynch. If the lynches had been truly random, then maybe 20-30% of the games should have had day 1 lynches turn up red, but none of them did. Here are the D1 lynches from several games: NMM XXI: blue NMM XX: red NMM XIX: blue NMM XVIII: green NMM XVII: red NMM XVI: blue (I couldn't find XV or XIV, so I chose to go to the SNMMs) SNMM XI: red SNMM X: green SNMM IX: green So we have 3 blues lynched, 3 VT lynched, and 3 scum lynched. So it would appear that in Newbie mini mafia games, there is about a 1/3 chance of lynching scum D1. With 3/13 chance a random lynch would hit scum (~24%), and historically a 1/3 chance of hitting scum through hunting, the choice is clear. This is for future reference really, as we're already hunting. But this brings up the fact that Shady almost certainly lied. Now there is sometimes a reason for a townie to lie. If it opens up an avenue for them to discover scum, or take one for the team, or accomplishes another goal it can be a boon to lie to the town. On the other hand, by suggesting that scum hunting D1 is useless, Shady is 1) discouraging discussion (why discuss when it only lowers the probability of hitting scum?), 2) stalling the game (mafia wants to stall as long as possible. they use their kp regardless of where our lynch ends up), and 3) trying to influence newbies' thinking (if analysis/scum hunt isn't the main priority, then mafia get off free for mistakes while being able to penalize some other player. This goes with stalling). In short, Shady lied in a pretty baldfaced manner, and the lie only serves the interest of mafia. Also, after reading through Obvious's filter last game, I saw that his behavior was almost identical to Golbat's. Golbat, you need to contribute, because if you don't, you're going to be looking even scummier. But I have seen almost identical play from a townie (Obvious was lynched D1 though), so for now I am going to switch my vote. ##Unvote ##Vote: Shady_Sands Now this is the post where he flips from golbat onto shady. The first half of his post is meaningless and doesn't actually provide any information or a good reason to flip from someone he had been pursuing whom he believed had scumslipped. Shady could have read Mafia games elsewhere, not just TL. So the whole lie scenario is a stretch and to me doesn't mean anything. He then goes on to speculate on a reason town would lie. This is also meaningless and fails to add anything to the Shady case. the only part of Mordanis' post which gives any clue whatsoever as to why he flipped from his scum read to shady. On July 28 2012 06:36 Mordanis wrote: Also, after reading through Obvious's filter last game, I saw that his behavior was almost identical to Golbat's. Golbat, you need to contribute, because if you don't, you're going to be looking even scummier. But I have seen almost identical play from a townie (Obvious was lynched D1 though), so for now I am going to switch my vote. He meta reads. But not golbats previous game. Obvious.660's. No mention of the strong arguments brought forward about shady by prom and subsequently ange777, no analysis of shady that actually adds anything. Next post after voting shady. what does he decide to do he makes another list in a similar vein as above On July 28 2012 07:26 Mordanis wrote: OK, if you want to look at other games too, Bureaucracy: blue DBZ: red I can't believe its...: green TLM LVI: green SSB 64: ??? Movie star: green Bastard: No clue Igrok's: green TLM LV: green MTG 1: green Wheel of fortune: None TLM LIII: VE blue C9++: red So if you look at full games (30ish players), the rate of hitting scum is really bad. As it should be, since 6 people working together are pretty strong when no one knows anything else. In the more exposed mini set ups though, there seems to be much more incidence of hitting red D1. So I have to retract my statement about the bald-faced lie, it is possible to have looked up several large games and seen no scum hit with D1 lynch. I still do stand by my statement that the post I quoted earlier is misleading at best (for mini games) and works against town. My apologies everyone for not researching fully prior to this. So allow me to reread through to see things with fresh eyes. He talks a big game. Lied and drew heat on himself so we could start scumhunting. I don't buy it. He is not following through. He is not contributing anything of substance. He is flipflopping whilst accusing others of the same. He is not doing the scumhunting he so desperately wanted to start. | ||
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I can somewhat understand what you are saying in regards to lurkers, the premise being that they don;t contribute anything to the discussion etc. That being said i read through your filter last night and this morning and every single post since the game started has been talking about lynching lurkers. In fact the only contribution you have made to an ongoing discussion is this. On July 27 2012 15:12 goodkarma wrote: I'm hesitant to join the Mordanis lynch bandwagon. Mordanis's arguements were definitely incredibly flimsy, but I find it hard to believe that a mafia would stick his neck out that far when it seems many successful mafia are content to stick their heads in the sand. His opening statement indicates he desires to start a hunt for who's mafia: It's also worth noting he has not yet explicitly voted for who he accused. I don't feel we can find that guy with one flimsy lynch arguement and assume he's guilty, especially when it's the first arguement of the game. I don't see him having any investment in who's accused if he's really mafia, especially when most day one lynchings tend to hit town. Yes lurking hurts town, as does only posting about lurkers and not discussing anything else. | ||
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Shady said that he looked through 20 games without seeing any mafia lynched D1. I referenced 20 games with 5 scum lynched D1. This is Irrelevant. Claiming it is a lie is a stretch and nothing you stated does anything to further the case against Shady Sands nor do I believe it to be a legitimate reason to flip from golbat (who to you has scumslipped etc. and whom you had been pushing on for the majority of your previous posts) to Shady Sands. Darth: Where did I lie? I want one expression that is a bald-faced lie. You have admitted to pursuing a case against keirathi that you didn't believe was true. You're right, I didn't really believe the case, but there isn't any real pressure generated by "Hey i dont believe wat im sayin, but i think X is scum" The reason I left the case on Keir is because there wasn't really a case. So you still haven't given a legitimate reason to dropping your case on golbat, had nothing to add to the sandy shades case you jumped onto. and then, when questioned: To keep myself honest, I'll go ahead and ## unvote. How many times did you claim Golbat to be flip flopping his vote around? I want to point out that I think several people are going about scum-hunting the wrong way. Play that hurts town but benefits scum is indicative of scumminess. Illogical posting is not necessarily scummy though. This is a tautology. Illogical posting does hurt town. It obscures the crux of you arguement and makes it more difficult to read through and analyze your positions. The point is I don't believe you to be guilty of illogical arguments and nothing more. The 1st case you pursued you didn't believe. The second case you pursue, and the only one in which you post anything of substance, is dropped out of nowhere with no real explanation.The third case you move onto because you meta read golbat with obvious' previous play then drop the case against him. You jump on the shady sands case yet you add nothing to the case against that person and when questioned drop that vote immediately. Then move back to Golbat. You are also guilty of basing entire arguments on WIFOM, wishy-washy-ness, appearing to but not actually contributing to cases, saying things whilst saying nothing etc. I am going to a party and should be back before Deadline which i may stay up for 7am my time. However in case something goes wrong, i am putting my vote with mordanis. ##Vote: Mordanis | ||
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So I guess I will post my thoughts etc. on mordanis I am not satisfied with your responses to my case against you. I dont think you have adequately explained anything and have just repeated all the reasons why you should be considered town rather than the particular issues stated. You are still my strongest scum read, therefore I think you are the best lynch candidate. @ange777 on Goodkarma. I mean I posted it before, all Goodkarma's posts are discussions on lurkers and policy lynch's. Seemed to be a bit overly defensive when I pointed this out. The problem with goodkarma is that there is almost nothing to go on with him, as there is no analysis in his posts. on Shady Sands. The strongest argument on shady was posted by prom and followed up by ange. It seems like he has been pushing to potentially set up a mis-lynch and use this as reason to lynch another. As I said previously the whole lying/listing previous mafia games/ statistics situation to me didn't seem like a particularly strong argument or evidence and didn't seem to add anything to the case on Shady Sands. With that being said at the moment we are headed towards a no lynch which I am certainly not in favour of. I am willing to alter my vote to ensure this does not happen. Hopefully this gets resolved shortly as I would love to get some sleep. | ||
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On July 29 2012 08:34 Golbat wrote: Hey guys, this is my one polite goodbye post. I'm really sorry that things played out the way they did. I feel like I was going good up until I backed off Mordanis so early, and that was truly a rookie mistake. I've learned a lot about how to play from my first game, and I hope to improve a lot in my next game. I'll be signing up for XXIII, so I'll see some of you there hopefully ^^. Good luck town, kill those dirty mafia bastards! <3, Golbat GG golbat. | ||
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I am going to read through the thread again with the knowledge that Golbat was town as Keirathi and others suggested and I will post some thoughts in a bit. | ||
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Golbat played quite poorly when it comes down to it. Which makes it hard to read his posts and find connections with the new knowledge of being a confirmed green. The case on him started with Mordanis and he was subsequently pressured by ange777 consistently as she also did with Shady Sands. In regards to my thoughts on the Mord/Golbat I have previously posted on this topichttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=16#308 Shady and the Golbat flip. Shady jumped on to the golbat wagon with reckless abandon and the post in which Promethelax first casts his FoS had some strong arguments. Which only seem stronger in light of golbats lynch. In terms of Golbats reads etc. He parked his vote with aryuujin in response to the tangent between himself and goodkarma. Which to me doesn't really provide much insight into anything. I am going to read through things again in the morning after some rest and with a fresh Perspective. I am super tired so hopefully things will be clearer then. | ||
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Goodkarma I have posted previously what i thought of goodkarmas policy lynch er policy. But his (her? for some reason i always want to say her) Posting has dramitically improved since he was called on it and now includes actual content and analysis. This section in particular What town really needs to have a shot at this is a very vocal populace producing a variety of different opinions and arguments based off their own observations and best reads. Pushing for a town leadership this openly and abruptly simply isn’t pro-town. seems to make a lot of sense to me and gives me town vibes from goodkarma. Ange + Mordanis. Mordanis' case on ange is ironic. Mordanis lead the case against Golbat for much of the day cycle yet switched off him and then back onto him after I questioned why (never answered to my satisfaction) Ange777 stuck with her vote the whole time. Yes she did cast suspicion onto goodkarma after going after golbat hard. This sums it up well On July 30 2012 18:36 Ange777 wrote: Once I stated my suspicions against Golbat I moved on to analyze other players' post. He was semi-lurking and not answering to my last accusations and therefore I saw no need and possibility to further pressure him as my vote was already on him. There is more than just one scum in this game so why tunnel a player so hard that you forget the others? and in the context of the situation there was quite a large side debate on lurkers and aruujin parallel to the golbat-mordanis-shady sands discussion that was happenining at the time. I still find mordanis suspiscious and i feel as if my case against him was never really answered satisfactorily and just sort of got drowned out in the noise. His posting and reasoning has improved INCREDIBLY (thanks BTW) and lots of people seem to be having small town reads on him. That being said if anyone wants to know my thoughts on him at a later date let me know. I will be watching him closely. "With the momentum solidly going towards a Golbat lynch when I revoted him" -Mordanis. I mean i don't get why this guys doesn't start alarm bells ringing for you guys like he does for me. Loud Mafia The "loud mafia are easier to spot therefore we wait to lynch them" argument/policy that people have been using seems ridiculous to me.There is absolutely no way that people should be under less scrutiny for posting more. They are more likely to slip if they post alot. But that does not mean people should also just get away with questionable posts because their filters are large and they make cases. (i.e. mordanis) Promethelax On July 30 2012 18:14 Promethelax wrote: I'm not saying I should be a town leader or a town analyst, I am saying that town is following my analysis and that I am taking things said by players whom I greatly respect and trying to forge my town play around that. If the two things that town needs are a good leader and someone with good analysis I will try to provide both. No he doesn't say that he is a town analyst he is saying he is potentially both. On July 30 2012 18:14 Promethelax wrote: I'm saying having someone who is clearly pro-town trying to create a pro-town environment is a necessity for town. Why is he trying so hard to establish himself as pro town? That combined with this: Look bud, I want to be able to trust you. You are the player in this game that I respect the most. Give me some cases to work with that I know YOU are capable of. You are good at being town, prove to me that you are town so that we can have a town circle (town line, lol) and some town beers or wahtever it is that townies do. I'm new at this not being red (or retardedly worse than everyone else) thing. Who are your biggest scum reads right now and why. Buddying Keirathi after he places him within a group of possible scum and then trying to establish himself as pro town seems quite suspicious to me. Only Mafia win the game by not dying, we win the game by finding scum. I request you spend less time attempting the former and more of your good analysis on the latter. I have Just had a WTF moment whilst reading through the thread and taking these notes. But will make a special post for that. <3 Obvious. | ||
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On July 30 2012 18:57 Obvious.660 wrote: DarthPunk also explained that he would be willing to change his vote from Mordanis to Golbat to avoid a mislynch with his post 40 minutes later. Sounds appropriate given the situation, from a town perspective. But again, we're at the two scenarios as above where we're either seeing avoiding looking bad for the mislynch, or staying around to ensure there is a lynch. OK when I read this I lol'd. This is just wrong and made me question whether he even read my filter. Let me clear things up for you. On July 29 2012 04:35 DarthPunk wrote: With that being said at the moment we are headed towards a no lynch which I am certainly not in favour of. I am willing to alter my vote to ensure this does not happen. Hopefully this gets resolved shortly as I would love to get some sleep. So after reading this post. you summarize it as this: On July 30 2012 18:57 Obvious.660 wrote: DarthPunk also explained that he would be willing to change his vote from Mordanis to Golbat to avoid a mislynch Where did I say I would vote for Golbat? I voted for my best read. I didn't want a no-lynch and as my biggest scum read was pushing the case and band-waggoning his main rival for the lynch concurrently I didn't really want to vote for either of them. You entirely misrepresented what I said and I fail to see the reason behind it. I need to read your filter very carefully. | ||
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On July 31 2012 00:39 Shady Sands wrote: Darth, I'm getting really bad vibes about Promethelax's "town circle"/"town leadership" ideas as well. No idea why he would choose to lurk D1 and then immediately start to argue for something like this so quickly. I don't think he lurked on day one. His schedule and my time-zone actually synch up fairly well. and at that time lots of people are asleep and not much happens in the thread while the US is asleep  . That being said it blows my mind how hard he seems to be trying to establish his Townieness and I don't know what possible advantage it could bring. | ||
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On July 31 2012 06:48 Promethelax wrote: Being a clear town assets helps town hugely, it removes a townie from suspicion. Look at MTG where I played like crap (that is had no idea what the fuck was happening) but Nova_Terra still called me one of the best town players that was because it was clear that I was town even though me reads until right at the end were terrible. In one of the guides (I think it is Qotal's) it says that one of the most important things a townie can do is prove their innocence and I have read a lot of postgames in which hosts say that looking townie is something town needs to work on. I kinda wish I had played worse as scum so my meta wasn't so similar but ah well, nothing I can do about that now. I actually think my meta is really different and I think it is easy to spot the differences but me pointing them out doesn't help town read me since I am aware of my meta I could have intentionally changed it. GK: Since you have explained your reasoning ##: Unvote For those that think I am scummy I would urge you to actually see the things I am putting into the thread. I have provided good cases, I am willing to change my reads as new behaviours are exhibited and new information comes to light. I am acting in a pro-town manner in this game because I am playing with a town win con. Keir: Honestly I don;t want to lead discussion. I'd love to be able to provide cases and let others lead the talking but since no one has stepped in I am trying to provide some guidance to the other nubs here. My obsessive behaviour has lead to me reading a ton of mafia games, and related qts as well as guides and host notes. The amount of information I have ingested makes me feel pretty good about my general game knowledge and I am trying to help town with that knowledge. Every single member of town should try to establish their towniness. It is awful play to fail to do that (see our D1 mislynch of a guy who totally failed to establish himself as town and town was punished for it). I am trying to do three things: establish myself as town, create a positive town atmosphere and build good cases on people who appear scummy to me. I would argue that 100% of my behaviour falls into line with those three goals and you would do well to realize that I am working towards a town victory and not a scum one. My posting style will change again soon since I have work for the next five days, starting tomorrow. I'll try to be more active than I was in the early game but I won't be as crazy active as I have been these past few days. I think you misunderstood what i meant with that post. I understand that a confirmed town is very large asset to have. But someone is not confirmed town in my eyes just because he starts jumping up and down telling anyone who will listen that he is. Quite the opposite infact. What I don't understand is why on day two you would try so hard to establish your self as confirmed town rather than focus on the cases and let your scum hunting do your talking for you. The fact of the matter is that as soon as anyone mentioned you as possible scum for not voting Golbat that your behaviour dramtically changed and you began to start pushing yourself as confirmed town really hard and buddied keirathi (who had recently mentioned you in a list with others as possible scum.) really hard. On July 31 2012 06:48 Promethelax wrote: I am trying to do three things: establish myself as town, create a positive town atmosphere and build good cases on people who appear scummy to me. I would argue that 100% of my behaviour falls into linewith those three goals and you would do well to realize that I am working towards a town victory and not a scum one. Yeha, day two 100% of your behaviour falls into those catagories.(with a disproportionate amount of establishing your self as town) but this is a RADICAL departure from your day one posting which i actually thought was good as you were making solid cases for the most part. However the more you make noise about how you are town and how it would be best for the town if you were confirmed town (implied) the more suspicous you are to me. I was not particularly suspicous of you before this shift in focus from lynching scum and making cases, to: promethelax is town it would be good for town if i were considered confirmed town. Immediately after being brought, however slightly, into suspicion. On July 31 2012 06:48 Promethelax wrote: My posting style will change again soon since I have work for the next five days, starting tomorrow. I'll try to be more active than I was in the early game but I won't be as crazy active as I have been these past few days. What is this? This is an excuse and a reason to explain the dramatic shift of focus in your posting between day one and day two. It could also be used as an explanation if your posting changes again in the future. The problem is that having time/not having time does not explain the dramatic shift of focus and style, all it does is potentially explain a drop or increase in activity. On July 31 2012 06:48 Promethelax wrote: I am acting in a pro-town manner in this game because I am playing with a town win con. OK. Great. In what way does this contribute whatsoever. All it contributes is an attempt to manipulate the reads others make on you. On July 31 2012 06:48 Promethelax wrote: Being a clear town assets helps town hugely, it removes a townie from suspicion. Being a clear town assets helps me hugely, it removes me from suspicion. FoS Promethelax | ||
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Regardless if they are scum or town MrMedic and Ayruujin to a lesser extent are hurting the game with inactivity. This is the entire contribution of MrMedic on day 2 0_o | ||
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What was that said about burnout? That playing loud mafia is hard, and that he will either scumslip or dramatically lower his contribution if he was scum? Right. | ||
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On July 31 2012 14:35 DarthPunk wrote: Where is mordanis? he goes from making huge waves on the first day. Leads the case on Golbat, jumps on Shady Sands lots of posting etc. It is now 9 hours till deadline on day 2. He has made a case on ange777 with his singular post and has since disappeared. This is quite a contrast to his case on golbat in which there is a large loud and consistent follow up What was that said about burnout? That playing loud mafia is hard, and that he will either scumslip or dramatically lower his contribution if he was scum? Right. | ||
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On July 31 2012 17:14 Mordanis wrote: Just for clarity, is there definitely 3 scum or is the number ambiguous? Same for other roles, i.e. could there be multiple vigis or medics etc.? This has been answered previously http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++ we are loosely based on this setup. so multiple blue roles and no confirmed number of reds or blues. | ||
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On July 31 2012 17:17 Obvious.660 wrote: See one of my more recent posts for my thoughts on alan133 and DarthPunk. Might be best to also make him aware of how you used a complete misrepresentation of what I actually posted to come to your conclusion. The fact that after I corrected you, you are still willing to refer people to that post without any clarification on how misleading/wrong it was is astounding. | ||
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I am going to the movies to see the new batman movie, i'll return in a few hours. | ||
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On July 31 2012 18:09 Obvious.660 wrote: Just so it's in my filter again, Darth. I am admitting to typing the wrong word at 5:57AM my time. Again. You seem to think this was intentional. I'm sorry. It's not the typo. It is the fact that you assumed I would vote for Golbat and then stated it as a fact. I completely understand that you can make a typo. But the conclusions you drew from an incorrect assumption just make no sense without that assumption. This still would be fine if you didn't then direct people to your post without stating that as the assumptions that preceded you argument were invalid the conclusions you drew from it were, if not invalid, far less meaningful. | ||
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On July 31 2012 18:13 Ange777 wrote: What are you referring to? I am referring to this On July 31 2012 00:43 DarthPunk wrote: OK when I read this I lol'd. This is just wrong and made me question whether he even read my filter. Let me clear things up for you. So after reading this post. you summarize it as this: Where did I say I would vote for Golbat? I voted for my best read. I didn't want a no-lynch and as my biggest scum read was pushing the case and band-waggoning his main rival for the lynch concurrently I didn't really want to vote for either of them. You entirely misrepresented what I said and I fail to see the reason behind it. I need to read your filter very carefully. | ||
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On July 31 2012 18:26 Obvious.660 wrote: The correction would read: 'mislynch' replaced by 'no lynch', do you still take issue with the intent here? Yes. please read above post. | ||
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On July 31 2012 18:50 Obvious.660 wrote: Let me see if I'm following you. You want me to clarify that you would have voted for anyone, not just specifically Golbat, but anyone, if it was coming close to crunch time with no clear successful lynch in sight, in order to obtain a lynch (also known as avoiding a no-lynch), no matter who it was? Is that it? If this doesn't answer it, I'm just going to have to ask someone else: Anyone who is not DarthPunk please tell me what he's talking about? You seem really worried about being associated with the Golbat case, btw. Yes. I have explained this before. You put words in my mouth in order to facilitate some 'analysis' that does not stand up without the flagrant misrepresentation of what I said. I thought that the first time I addressed I addressed this I was very clear how retarded the post in which you did that was. I thought the issue was resolved but then you directed others to the post in which you fundamentally altered my words with no mention of the previous conversation when I correct the flagrant error. Honestly I am surprised it took this long for you to understand the problem in your post and I don't see why you seem to be frustrated that I have followed this up. If someone had posted 'analysis' that was based on something you didn't say and then after correcting them on it continued to lead people to that 'analysis' I am sure you would want to make sure that people were aware of the situation. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand or took so long to resolve. | ||
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On July 31 2012 22:48 DarthPunk wrote: HI guys! just got back from batman. Movie is long. First up some resolution to the retardedness between obvious and myself. EBWOP: Yes. I have explained this before. You put words in my mouth in order to facilitate some 'analysis' that does not stand up without the flagrant misrepresentation of what I said. I thought that the first time I thought the issue was resolved but then you directed others to the post in which you fundamentally altered my words with no mention of the previous conversation when I correct the flagrant error. Honestly I am surprised it took this long for you to understand the problem in your post and I don't see why you seem to be frustrated that I have followed this up. If someone had posted 'analysis' that was based on something you didn't say and then after correcting them on it continued to lead people to that 'analysis' I am sure you would want to make sure that people were aware of the situation. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand or took so long to resolve. | ||
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On July 31 2012 18:45 Promethelax wrote: @DarthPunk My day two play is how I play the game when I have enough time. I'm glad you found my day one helpful and I'll try to replicate the strength of the cases I built but you'll note that d1 I had my SS case and since that point I have made others which are at least as strong (in my eyes stronger). I honestly don't feel that I am jumping up and down saying “oooh me I'm green! I'm green!” I am explaining the reasons for my play and my actions. As I said there are three goals that I have as a townie. We as town do win through living and having more obvious townies is a huge asset that is why Mason is an incredibly strong role. I'm going to stop harping on about my work and real life, when I'm here I am here and will be posting in a way that helps town you will have to decide for yourself if there is a scum agenda or a town one in my posts. As long as you promise to read over everything I say with no confirmation bias I welcome your FoS. Keep an eye on me and my actions should prove my alignment to you. I have an explanation for the buddying thing that you are unhappy with that I will reveal before the end of the night cycle. It has a good motivation and I promise town that I will explain it before the end of n2. OK so you have not answered anything to my satisfaction and have in fact just repeated the same kind of thing you have been throughout day two. Time is not an excuse for the complete shift in your playstyle from day one to day two. The only thing that should change with more time is more analysis more activity in the thread. This does not account for the way your play has changed as you are implying. I honestly don't feel that I am jumping up and down saying “oooh me I'm green! I'm green!” Really? It is all you have posted about for the majority of the past cycle. Even in this post which is supposed to address the concerns I have raised over you you just repeat that you are town ad nauseum. there are three goals that I have as a townie. We as town do win through living and having more obvious townies is a huge asset (implying yourself) when I'm here I am here and will be posting in a way that hel[ps town Keep an eye on me and my actions should prove my alignment to you. This last point is ridiculous looking through your posts all we hear from you is "I'm town, I'm town" and a large concerted effort by yourself to establish yourself not only as town but as a both THE town leader and THE town analyst. And all we have in response to suspicion is that your alignment will reveal itself. and this: On July 31 2012 18:45 Promethelax wrote:I have an explanation for the buddying thing that you are unhappy with that I will reveal before the end of the night cycle. It has a good motivation and I promise town that I will explain it before the end of n2. I mean what is this? You are heavily implying a blue claim but won't reveal the information until after the voting cycle. Could you be any more obvious in what you are trying to achieve? People are questioning you buddying keirathi, and your response is that there is a reasonable explanation but you can only tell us after we don't lynch you. and the fact you are implying a claim lays confusion at those who had read you as scum and a possible explanation for buddying keirathi. OK look at this: On July 31 2012 17:52 Promethelax wrote: Because that was a pressure vote to get him to reveal his reads. I unvoted him when he gave me the read he had been hiding but I still find him scummy. I'm working on part two of my case on him. Proms explanation for unvoting GK. seems pretty straight forward right. Note the last sentence and bear with me. Since this case he has continued to play in a way that makes him seem scummy to me. IN this post which follows on the lack of NK he says which is odd given that he had been playing as if he was sure he would live to the morning and this is a really subtle way to say to people “I'm town too, I'm scared of dying” without coming out and saying that you are town. He follows that up with where he adds fluff to the thread because it is “all the rage” he also talks about the lack of night kill in a way that reminds me of my MTG game where scum tried to both emphasize and ignore the lack of a night kill. (this second point is essentially a gut feeling). These are the additional points he brings to the Goodkarma case and the reason to go from an unvote to a vote. The first point holds absolutely no value in my mind. The second is adding fluff to the thread. Prom added huge amounts of fluff to the thread with the keirathi tangent. yet this is a reason for him to go from unvoting someone to voting for that very person. He conveniently mentions it was long to read (subtly encouraging people not to read it) then summarises goodkarmas case on him like this: I know it is obscenely long don't worry. It is easy to simplify. There are three points. 1 the use of 'a' instead of 'my' 2 I told him not to do something that is actually against the rules 3 my overuse of the word town and 4 OMGUSOMGUSOMGUS Now I have read Goodkarmas case on Prox (as well as mord's which was excellent) and to be honest the above assessment was unfair there were a lot of good points made in his post and instead of defending it with the respect it deserves he belittles it as if to make it seem trivial and unimportant. He also avoided actually defending adequately my FoS and for these reasons I have decided to ## Vote: Promethelax | ||
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As far as I am concerned Goodkarmas post after the night post was a null tell. It certainly wasn't enough to be considered one of the two reasons to vote GK after just unvoting him. Using that as a tell or whatever is just a huge stretch to me. | ||
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On August 01 2012 05:51 Keirathi wrote: It really depends on his flip. If he flips medic and he's the one that made the save last night, I can see him trying to buddy up with who he now knows is a townie without having to specifically claim. That makes sense somewhat. but even then, the NK could have failed due to roleblock or the mafia could have easily held back as you said earlier. It seems like a big risk for the medic to assume someone is green like that, as it is not 100% confirmed at all. | ||
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On August 01 2012 11:59 Obvious.660 wrote: Golbat was the best contender for lynch based on votes D1 by being at 5 votes AT THE TIME OF YOUR POST! So you used your assumptions on the situation and then presented them as my statements and you fail to understand my issue with that? You then describe my problem with your post as the following. On August 01 2012 11:59 Obvious.660 wrote: Once again, sorry for being too specific. I will make it a point to be very vague and mysterious in the future when I'm scum hunting against you. Seriously? It's not that you are being too specific (you weren't specific at all you paraphrased) it is that you flagrantly misrepresented what I said whilst attempting to make a 'case' out of me stating I would alter my vote if necessary to avoid a no lynch. The fact is your entire post was useless. You wrote alot about nothing. your own conlusion was The only things they had in common so far really was they didn't vote for Golbat, and both were willing to change votes. This tells me nothing of either of them individually but leads me to believe that they are not necessarily of the same alignment. Then, when I call you out on pretty much lying in your summary of my post. It has been dragged out and I have had to explain to you countless times my issue and it still seems you don't understand or don't want to understand the problem. @Jingle. I read lots of XXI and you seem to be a solid player. I look forward to reading your contributions. | ||
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On August 01 2012 13:37 Obvious.660 wrote: If I'm the scummiest player here, why am I still not getting your votes? Two days in a row you haven't voted for me despite what you call scummy behavior, favoring voting for self-apologetic newbies. You're voting for the easiest cases first. Put your money where your mouth is and start voting for me if you think I'm a liability. My vote will stay on Shady Sands until something better comes up. When day 3 rolls around I expect to see a full case from you about me and a vote on me. Two words come up when I look at your playstyle: too careful. The alan/Darth thing I brought up is dead, I withdrew my claim about it. Then I had to go even further to clarify my intent. If you think I'm scum, then I'm the worst scum in this game. That's the bottom line, because it's obvious. Dude why are you martyring yourself so hard? If you are town do us all a favour and actually defend your posts and positions with clear logical arguments rather than asking why people aren't voting for you yet and throwing suspicion at everyone who criticizes you or your posts with no basis for that suspicion. | ||
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On August 01 2012 14:11 Obvious.660 wrote: Maybe your problem is that I have problems. Can we get something else useful in your filter besides being petulant? Really? | ||
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First of all I am all but convinced that Shady Sands is Mason. The slip is there, and he would have had to fabricate that day 1 with almost nothing to go off. So 99% certain that SS is green. I am going to go back through each of Keirathi and SS filters and see if they were onto anything. I do know however, that both have been suspicious of Obvious. I already had my eye on him and I am going to look through his filter very closely. @goodkarma, There is a post in my filter that addresses my position on Mordanis. On July 31 2012 00:26 DarthPunk wrote: I still find mordanis suspiscious and i feel as if my case against him was never really answered satisfactorily and just sort of got drowned out in the noise. His posting and reasoning has improved INCREDIBLY (thanks BTW) and lots of people seem to be having small town reads on him. That being said if anyone wants to know my thoughts on him at a later date let me know. I will be watching him closely. -Mordanis. I mean i don't get why this guys doesn't start alarm bells ringing for you guys like he does for me. At the point I posted that many people had stated they had small town reads on him and no one was contributing or commenting on my case against him. Whilst I did (and still do) have a scum read on mordanis the fact that my case was generating zero discussion and a fear that I was victim of confirmation bias. I felt that I was being unproductive by focusing on him too much. That being said, I have been following mordanis closely and there continue to be unresolved questions around him. Off the Top of my head I will state a few things that are wrong with mordanis. Day one he lead 3 cases against 3 now confirmed townies. He pursued them very aggresively but none of his cases had much merit. The first one he admitted to being dishonest with (didn't really believe there was a case on keir) and was based purely on WIFOM. + Show Spoiler + On July 28 2012 10:46 DarthPunk wrote: Good morning Everyone. First up some thoughts. Golbat I spent the majority of last night reading their filters trying to make sense of it. And it was seriously a mess. From the OMGUS accusations onward. Golbat flip-flops like it is going out of style. And Mordanis still uses a large amount of WIFOM to justify his arguments which just make it more difficult to understand what he is actually saying. One of mordanis' key arguments (claimed scumslip) against golbat was this While it is true that this may be used to hop on whatever bandwagon he wants without fear of reprisal. in the context of the conversation and a simple search through his filter says otherwise. Go read the thread. He was THE FIRST to cast suspicion onto Mord. Mordanis case is built upon the fact that he had insurance to jump on any bandwagon he wanted without fear of reprisal and then jumps on a bandwagon on him. Golbat almost immediately casts suspicion onto Mordanis, then states he may already have an idea of who may be scum. Yep, it seems like he was just backing up his previous claim of mordanis' scumminess. Mordanis Mordanis goes from pushing golbats case and 'scumslip' heavily, to voting shady in the space of a post. We would assume that this sudden change of heart would come with some clear and strong arguements right? Wrong Now this is the post where he flips from golbat onto shady. The first half of his post is meaningless and doesn't actually provide any information or a good reason to flip from someone he had been pursuing whom he believed had scumslipped. Shady could have read Mafia games elsewhere, not just TL. So the whole lie scenario is a stretch and to me doesn't mean anything. He then goes on to speculate on a reason town would lie. This is also meaningless and fails to add anything to the Shady case. the only part of Mordanis' post which gives any clue whatsoever as to why he flipped from his scum read to shady. He meta reads. But not golbats previous game. Obvious.660's. No mention of the strong arguments brought forward about shady by prom and subsequently ange777, no analysis of shady that actually adds anything. Next post after voting shady. what does he decide to do he makes another list in a similar vein as above He talks a big game. Lied and drew heat on himself so we could start scumhunting. I don't buy it. He is not following through. He is not contributing anything of substance. He is flipflopping whilst accusing others of the same. He is not doing the scumhunting he so desperately wanted to start. The case on golbat was a reaction to him casting a vote on mordanis, and he pushed that case throughout the majority of day. But then he jumped on shady sands with an explanation for leaving his previous 'Best scum read' as reading Obvious' filter from the previous game. So he jumped onto another case after leading a mislynch hard throughout day one. contributed very little to it. Tried to manufacture a scenario in which Shady 'lied' and spent several posts muddling the conversation with his case about shady's day 1 lynch scenario, that I personally felt was retarded. So after I pressure him on jumping the ship he built and keirathi somewhat defends shady, he jumps back on to the mislynch he created. The net effect of this play? leads a mislynch whilst sufficiently distancing himself from it through his SS tangent. He then accuses Ange777 of doing something extremely similar. After day 1 his posting whilst improving in clarity and making cases based on something other than WIFOM, have dramatically altered in style and frequency, yet still contain the internal contradictions I first took issue with. His case on prom + Show Spoiler + On July 31 2012 19:10 Mordanis wrote: I'm really confused by Promethelax's play. He just admonished me for fluff posts. His entire first page of his filter is fluff. He comments on my opening case being really bad, regardless of my alignment. Look at his first FOS: + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 18:55 Promethelax wrote: I'd like to bring some attention to Zorkmid: He starts with policy talk, as we all did. Follows it up with an immediate about face when he learns about the no-lynch option He leaves hoping for more from others and after that comes back with a question and than dissapears That was over ten hours ago, I don't get it. Where did you go Zork? I don't like his play so far and, thus, a FoS is declared. On July 27 2012 07:18 Promethelax wrote: Okay Ghost, will do. On July 27 2012 07:26 Promethelax wrote: You win for my favourite response ever. If you are ever in my neck of the woods hit me up and I'll buy you a drink just for that. On July 27 2012 07:37 Promethelax wrote: Unrelated to the discussion so far after reading Shady Sands' Op here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355847 I expect awesome posts from him/her. Slim Shady: you've got some awesome to live up to. Since we haven't been productive so far I would like us to turn our attention to pressure: I for one am concerned that MrMedic may not be a medic and is lying about his role in his name. Okay, what I'm actually concerned about is that all he posted is that he is here. I want more. On July 27 2012 07:38 Promethelax wrote: EBWOP: I'm also concerned that his post was edited. Watch yourself my man or Ghost will smite you with his mighty powers. On July 27 2012 08:27 Promethelax wrote: My girlfriend got home so I don't have time to read one last time before going to work. I'll see you in 10-12 hours. Good luck town. On July 27 2012 21:49 Promethelax wrote: Alright, I'll look into their filters and see if anything is popping there. What I found, and still find weird about shady is this: + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 08:38 Shady Sands wrote: I'm not sure how Keir telling RB not to use their powers equals Keir roleclaiming as RB. Of course Day 1 roleclaiming is suspicious but this post doesn't fit the bill. But if a clear consensus emerges that he's suspicious, I'd volunteer myself to watch his posting behavior. That said, I do think Day 1 scumhunting could work--but only after everyone (or nearly everyone) has posted. I'm going to go down the list of posters now and do a quick tally. Ange777 - No posts yet Keirathi - Six posts Promethelax - More than 10 posts alan133 - 1 "GLHF" post Mordanis - Three posts Obvious.660 - 2 posts MrMedic - 1 post, edited aRyuujin - 2 posts, both haiku DarthPunk - No posts yet goodkarma - No posts yet Golbat - No posts yet Shady Sands - 2 posts so far Zorkmid - 5 posts Players in order of activity: Promethelax Keirathi Zorkmid Mordanis Obvious.660 aRyuujin Shady Sands alan133 MrMedic -- Lurkers -- Ange777 Darthpunk goodkarma Golbat Once the remaining few lurkers have posted, then we can start scumhunting. The next task is to read through past mafia games and find those with successful Day 1 scumhunts--and see what common lessons can be drawn from them. I'm going to compile a list of those right now. Where he puts a lot of bull shit into the thread and nothing real. He literally used post counts to increase the size of his filter. the other thing in here I want to focus on is his lets wait attitude. for example: from the above post and others He also says that both of these things push town away from hunting for scum, attempting to prevent scum hunting is a huge scum trait. On top of this he misrepresents the facts in newbie 21 (I think) Hopeless1der was lynched d1 as scum so scum hunting has shown to be effective recently. He also replys to my advice by saying scum will blue snipe, they will kill players who won't vote for the right mislynch or who are tunneling scum. There are a million reasons for scum to shoot a bad town player so his first point is wrong and his second point again pushes us away from scum hunting since he insists that vigi shots are our most powerful tool. No they aren't. We are the most powerful town asset and scum hunting is the most powerful town tool. His next post tells us to wait for more people to post until we make cases and the one after that is a case... Sands tells us that we should still hold off even though this guy is the best lynch target. He also tells us that he will likely flip green based on (I assume) the statistics which seems, to me, to be a way to distance himself from a Mord town flip. What originally felt scummy to me in Sands' filter was this post where he says: Re-read that. Do yourself a favour and beat your face against a hard surface. He think that Mord will flip green unless he replys in the way that he (Sands) expects him to in which case he is red...alrighty than. I also hate this post: the bolded part at the end is essentially saying that we should lynch Golbat and if he is green lynch Mord. That seems to be setting us up for two mislynches and, if Sands ever flips red these two are pretty much confirmed town. So based on Sands' play I think that he is scum. He has earned my FoS and as of this moment he would be my vote if nothing changed between now and lynch. I'll be keeping my eye on him because, as he said, just replace Mord with Sands and you see the truth of the statement. He has to keep going and, as Keir well knows, loud scum are easy to find. The other thing that confuses me is the petulance with which Promethelax is trying to become the "town mayor". Here are a few examples: + Show Spoiler + On July 31 2012 17:33 Promethelax wrote: If you have set up questions ask the host otherwise you are just wasting thread space and padding your filter while adding nothing to the thread. On July 30 2012 18:14 Promethelax wrote: Sorry I'm on my way to bed and I figured I would quickly reply to Karma before falling asleep. I am sure I'll miss some points but the basic one of why is my play so different now than it was is that I work Tuesday-Saturday. I play better on my days off. As to the town leader thing: I just spent like ten minutes looking for the quote but couldn't find it. I think it was Marv who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "town needs two things, a good annalist and a good leader; they don't have to be the same person they just both have to exist" I'm not saying I should be a town leader or a town analyst, I am saying that town is following my analysis and that I am taking things said by players whom I greatly respect and trying to forge my town play around that. If the two things that town needs are a good leader and someone with good analysis I will try to provide both. I think you and I don't see eye to eye on what a town leader is. I'm not saying we should elect a mayor, I'm saying having someone who is clearly pro-town trying to create a pro-town environment is a necessity for town. By town leader I mean someone who is creating an environment where town flourishes even if the person creating that environment has their head up their ass on every single one of their reads. Essentially, from what I've read about XIX Promethelax kind of mauled town by getting into the "town circle", and controlling the game from there. I don't think a smart person could try the same strategy against people its already been used on and expect to win again. For that reason, Promethelax's inconsistent/illogical/ seems to be a mild indicator of scumminess. Also, being relatively inactive during one day reduces the amount of stuff any player needs to defend himself later. Edit before having to double post (EBHTDP) I am still confused by large parts of his play. For instance the part about lynching semi-lurkers seems sort of like what he's doing. GK hasn't posted nearly as many times as Prom himself, myself, Keir, Ange, Obvious, or Shady. 6 players of 12 left have 3 or more pages in their filter, the other 6 have 2. GK has spent a lot of his time defending himself, so if you take that away he's pretty lurky. But the caffeine is wearing off now, see y'all in the morning. Still, I like the content he generated with that post on GK, so I'll be watching Prom closely. I seriously need to pass out now though :/ He states many reasons why he thinks prom is scummy, yet the conclusion of the post doesn't really say anything and is incredibly wishy-washy. His next post + Show Spoiler + On August 01 2012 03:54 Mordanis wrote: My opinion on whom to lynch will be heavily influenced by what Prom and SS post. I will be able to vote (don't have anything to take me away) and if neither post in like 20 minutes, I'll just go ahead without their posts. He doesn't want to commit to anyone without having as much information as possible. To me this is very scummy. + Show Spoiler + On August 01 2012 04:50 Mordanis wrote: TT Was hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but here goes. I do not understand Promethelax's play. It has been at times hypocritical, illogical, and bad. I see very little scum motivation for the way he's been playing, assuming he's a competent player. I don't see any town motivation either, so I would prefer to wait to see if he continues to play the way he has. I haven't been able to look into GK's play much, and Promethelax's case on him isn't very strong, so I can't in good conscience vote for him unless I see another good case on him. Shady is in a similar position to Prom where he's had lurky play one day and weird play the other. Still, I can't seem to pin his play in this cycle as scummy. I don't know why people are suspicious of Zork. In other words, we have kind of a lousy set of cases today, for which I hold myself partly responsible. All in all though, I feel that Promethelax is the best target. His play could be described as a way to disrupt the scum-hunt, to get into a position of town-trust, to buddy up with players to make them feel bad for voting for him. I actually feel bad voting for him at this point, but he is my strongest read. ##Vote: Promethelax The half of the post in which he actually votes for someone Is actually spent being wishy-washy and distancing himself from a mis-lynch. Was hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but here goes. I haven't been able to look into GK's play much, and Promethelax's case on him isn't very strong, so I can't in good conscience vote for him unless I see another good case on him. Shady is in a similar position to Prom where he's had lurky play one day and weird play the other. Still, I can't seem to pin his play in this cycle as scummy. I don't know why people are suspicious of Zork. In other words, we have kind of a lousy set of cases today He doesn't give any good reasons for jumping on the promethelax vote at the last minute. Doesn't state why he feels like it is a bad choice. doesn't really say anything. His play from the Golbat lynch onwards has been like night and day, there is a Dramatic shift in style and he is spending a lot of time trying to lay low, make wishy-washy conclusions mitigate damage etc. I have always found Mordanis to be suspicious. I continue to find him suspicious. I have watched him and will continue to watch him. | ||
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@mordanis Yep, Something has always seemed off about him, but the weirdest thing recently is how dramatically his style has shifted from the first day. Everyone acknowledged he was a loud player (even though I thought his posts were ridiculous) and although his posting has improved in pure readability and a reduction of WIFOM. he has transformed from a reckless, scum hunting at all costs player, to a careful player waiting to see what others do, giving himself outs in his cases, being wishy-washy etc. As aRyuujin stated, his shift in style is also correlated with a large reduction in posts. I was wondering even at the beginning of day 2 what was going on with him. On July 31 2012 14:35 DarthPunk wrote: Where is mordanis? he goes from making huge waves on the first day. Leads the case on Golbat, jumps on Shady Sands lots of posting etc. It is now 9 hours till deadline on day 2. He has made a case on ange777 with his singular post and has since disappeared. This is quite a contrast to his case on golbat in which there is a large loud and consistent follow up on golbat. What was that said about burnout? That playing loud mafia is hard, and that he will either scumslip or dramatically lower his contribution if he was scum? Right. Reading back through mords filter i cam across something very interesting. On July 30 2012 05:35 Mordanis wrote: The main goals of the mafia for the D1 lynch were to force a mislynch (unless they are really bad at bussing :D), and put themselves in a position where they can relatively easily avoid a D2 lynch. They knew how whichever candidate was up would flip, so they had the ability to determine where in the vote they would go to minimize their chance to get lynched D2. So the main goals of the mafia were to force a mislynch and to not be suspected the following day. So you led a mislynch and then cast doubt on every single person who had nothing to do with it. Thereby attempting to reduce the focus on those who had forced a mislynch (namely yourself) fulfilling the second part of that statement On July 30 2012 05:35 Mordanis wrote: put themselves in a position where they can relatively easily avoid a D2 lynch. @Mordanis I look forward to hearing your response to some of these cases | ||
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Part of the trouble is that after all this pressure has reverted to what he used so effectively day 1. Lots of WIFOM and speculation without adding anything real to the thread which makes his posting incredibly hard to read through and analyze, confusing people to his actual positions and obscuring his arguements. His posting actually deters me from wanting to analyze him because it is so labourious to get through. This kind of posting obviously served him well on day 1 However as his posting became more readable it was easier to see how incredibly wishy-washy his conclusions were. So he has reverted back to what worked for him. Much to my dismay. but i will press on. On August 02 2012 17:35 Mordanis wrote: Ok, so hopefully you guys aren't so sure I'm scummy you'll hear me out. Part of the reason that I was having trouble coming up with reads D2 is that I had no solid read on what strategy the scum were trying to use. Obviously they were trying to win which includes forcing mislynches and using their kp, but there is so much more to scum strategy. They could be trying to snipe blues, stall scum lynches as long as possible, force a few mislynches before having one blatant scum slip that destroys all lines of discussion, in hopes of "starting anew", bussing, etc. The playstyle for each would be different, so what traits would the scum exhibit? In this way the lack of a KP N1 actually harmed my analysis, as I couldn't think what scum traits to hunt for. Then they kill Keir. As I had mentioned earlier, I don't think Keir's play matched that of a blue, so the scum weren't trying to blue-snipe. Keir had no really solid outstanding cases, so they weren't looking to take pressure off themselves. Keir was, however, an even tempered and logical townie. Scum seem to be trying to destabilize town, either to put themselves in "mayor" position, or to simply eliminate a player whom few seemed to be suspicious of. The more everyone is suspicious of everyone, the less obvious scum slips are. Alternately, Keir may have been a random kp designed to simply keep town from getting more information. Traits that should be looked for then are people who are trying to gain a position of confidence, or active scum, or hardcore-lurking scum. How on earth does this address anything anyone has brought up? The problem wasn't that you had trouble coming up with reads, it was that you lacked the conviction and tenacity you had shown in your previous day. You made a case on prom that was in my opinion stronger than many of the others who voted for him. But it lacked conviction and gave you an out. It was wishy-washy etc. also after posting that case you posted very little then wait to see what others will post before voting for promethelax whilst naysaying the lynch. Yet you address none of this. You say that you had trouble making reads which isn't what people were concerned with. I feel like I am constantly repeating myself but none of the cases against you were addressed. You then have a wall of WIFOM and speculation on mafia strategy. I mean wtf? people have specific cases against you and that doesnt explain anything or add anything. Again. On August 02 2012 17:35 Mordanis wrote: I don't really think anyone is in a position of trust except for SS. It would have been hypothetically possible for scum to have a "will" written out beforehand, with just the name needing to be changed. The will was posted 12 minutes after the flip, and it contains the people whom he mistrusted, and some other things. If scum were to fake one of these, it would require only one "will" written per night. Assuming the broken link (when I click on the link that was provided in the will, I get a fun TL broken link message) actually provides pretty good evidence, SS is pretty much cleared. More speculation that has been covered by others. still haven't adressed the cases against you. On August 02 2012 17:35 Mordanis wrote: Analytical-Active scum tend to try to out-logic their opponents. Players whose playstyle has been dominated by arguing in pure logic include: No one. Maybe JH at this point, but he's new. Ange, Obvious, Alan, GK, Aryuu, Zork and myself don't fit. The first 5 because they haven't really posted a case, and myself because I've made some pretty bad mistakes. Over-pushing the thing about Keir not being blue, shitty D2 play, and no content N2 when people said I would seem really scummy if I started to go inactive are really dumb mistakes. Mistakes that I should not have made, but they don't fit the motives for an analytical-active scum. This leaves inactive scum. I am most sure there will be at least one inactive scum 1.) because inactivity by its nature contributes no content, and scum have been trying to deprive us of content, and 2.) there's been basically no pressure on lurkers except for the votes on Aryuu. The main thing I find scummy about GK's play (his timing for policy-talking about lurkers when there was an active scum-hunting conversation happening) has already been discussed, so I'll move on to my other reads. More irrelevant noise. In the midst of which you try and play off everyones cases against you as 'Oh my god I suck' whilst casting suspicion and confusion about like it's going out of style. You then make cases on people which is good. If you didn't obscure them in the midst of things like this. On August 02 2012 17:35 Mordanis wrote: Right now, assuming 3 scum, there are 4 townies dead, leaving 6 townies vs. 3 scum. We are neither in LYLO nor MYLO. Giving up a flip and the relevant discussion and voting patterns at this point is purely scum-motivated. Scum keep their KP and retain the vast advantage in information while talking policy, while town gives up information in policy talking. Or, think of it in a numerical sense. Say we mislynch, and scum KP hits. 4 town vs. 3 scum, so we're in MYLO. If we don't lynch today, and scum hits, we're down to 5 town vs. 3 scum. This is virtually a LYLO, as town could score a lucky save again and go to a lylo. But in all likelihood, D4 is going to be LYLO unless we lynch scum today. No-lynching today would not change that unless we got that luck save. Right in the middle of your case on zork. He was talking about no-lynching early in the game, not today. (which was blatantly obvious) What does that do but obscure the case you are trying to make. But that's the point isn't it? also, this: [QUOTE]On August 02 2012 17:35 Mordanis wrote: the later rant section and his ability to censor vulgarity seem to be emotionally at odds with the post itself. He was angry enough to yell at people and to call someone scummy as fuck, but calm enough to write some logic-based arguments and censor himself from saying "shut the fuck up". It just seems too strange, as if it were just a plan to show emotion. This feels like a veiled attempt at saying "Hey, I'm a frustrated townie", which I find suspicious.[/qoute] Adds nothing to your case but to make it more confusing and difficult to follow. You seem to be returning to what has served you in the past. Obscuring your arguements beneath wifom and speculation in order to confuse people to what you are actually saying, because you aren't saying anything. You have not defended yourself or sufficiently addressed anything that has been raised in regards to you. Your cases seem to have substance but are buried beneath your confusion mechanisms. The thing is your post gave the 'impression' that you had actually somewhat resolved people's cases against you, but on closer inspection you have done nothing but make some minor cases that you may easily back away from once again (like you are doing from the promethelax lynch at 100 miles an hour) and sow confusion. It never left you, But once again. FoS: mordanis | ||
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On August 02 2012 20:42 Ange777 wrote: So many sorrys and excuses for your inactive/bad play. I don't know what you want to achieve by stating that over and over again. If you really were sorry and felt bad, you would step up your play. This gives me a really scummy vibe. Another thing that makes me suspicious right now is how you completely ignore the scumslip by Zork. Apparentely you are suspicious of Zork but after reading that scumslip you decide to just solely answer my question instead of commenting on it? Were you trying to distance yourself from your scum buddy but were taken by surprise by the revealment of this slip and now you don't know how to react? This is exactly right. Mord has not addressed the cases against him. He has backed away from the prom lynch at 100 miles an hour and apologised repeatedly/made excuses for, his scummy play. He does not really believe his cases and has no interest in following them up (in fact that is better for him because he can easily back away from them saying he wasn't sure, didn't really think he was scum etc. like he has with promethelax), he is only interested in self preservation and peoples perceptions of him. | ||
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The zork scumslip combined with his lurky posting habits are certainly cause for suspicion. I don't like his explanation for the statement. He is saying that he looks at certain posts through different roles but does not actually explain the slip at all. What was he trying to say there? It was WIFOM pure and simple. He has not answered the case on him adequately and he has not provided much in the way of cases. The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from. | ||
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On August 03 2012 04:07 Mordanis wrote: Could you guys who are posting cases against me put what you think are scum motivations for my play? Because right now it just seems like you're looking at mistakes and calling it scummy without mentioning how it benefits scum or harms town. Basically, when you just sort of point things out and call them scummy without analysis of why it is scummy. It's hard to argue anything other than ad-hominem because there is no underlying reasoning for me to argue. Ta! If you don't understand your cases re-read them. The ways in which the cases against you imply a scum motivation are fairly obvious. You aren't defending yourself and it seems that you are trying to stall having to address the cases against you. you haven't said anything apart from distancing yourself from the prom lynch before he even flipped green. This has come after you posted analysis on him and voted for him. I should need to repeat myself ad nauseum whilst all you do is deflect and stall actually having to defend yourself. Something jumped out at me whilst I quickly read through the thread. On August 03 2012 08:39 Mordanis wrote: EBWOP: Hey Obvious, do you want to weigh in on this discussion? I feel kind of weird that you're tunneling GK with an OMGUS with what I feel is a pretty good discussion. Your thoughts would be appreciated. then shortly afterwards this. On August 03 2012 09:56 goodkarma wrote: What I'm trying to get at here is: There's so much suspicion on him he looks less suspicious to me. It's a bit WIFOM, but I'm going to make the assumption (and it's a big one) that up until this point no scum has mounted a strong attack against one of his buddies. To this end, I don't think Mordanis is mafia, but rather a town that's played poorly. I understand how long it can take to post cases of the length that Mordanis likes to, and can genuinely understand his claim that he was busy day 2, which would explain his inactivity. His sometimes wishy-washy stances definitely are not very pro-town, but right now I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides the fact this makes Mord more suspicious (he has been under suspicion since day one and yet has survived two lynches) you both seem very coordinated in defending one another. You seem to be defending him on what you admit is assumptions and WIFOM. This is doing nothing but casting doubt on the very good cases against Mordanis which still have not been answered and are BEING IGNORED like the day one cases on him were. This is really weak and I don't see a Town motivation for you to use WIFOM and assumptions to cast doubt on strong cases that have not been answered once again. But this is not the first time you have defended mordanis whilst he was collecting votes was it? On July 27 2012 15:12 goodkarma wrote: I'm hesitant to join the Mordanis lynch bandwagon. Mordanis's arguements were definitely incredibly flimsy, but I find it hard to believe that a mafia would stick his neck out that far when it seems many successful mafia are content to stick their heads in the sand. His opening statement indicates he desires to start a hunt for who's mafia: It's also worth noting he has not yet explicitly voted for who he accused. I don't feel we can find that guy with one flimsy lynch arguement and assume he's guilty, especially when it's the first arguement of the game. I don't see him having any investment in who's accused if he's really mafia, especially when most day one lynchings tend to hit town. The Solitary argument day 1 that did not involve you discussing or defending your policy lynch plan was defending mordanis after he had some votes on him. The very next time you do it again. You say that you have casted suspicion on mordanis and that means he could not be Scum. and yet looking through your filter On August 02 2012 05:39 goodkarma wrote: So, there are some of my early thoughts. Based solely off of the voting history, I find the following people's actions suspicious: alan133, Shady Sands, Mordanis, Ange, and Darthpunk. I will be closely reviewing the filters for these people, and will have a more refined case writeup in day 3 (assuming I'm not NK'ed) for those whose actions turn out to be inconsistent. The only time you have even mentioned mordanis in your filter outside of defending him is to lump him in a group of 4 other people, enough to say that you have cast suspicion on him when he flips red, (which you already using in your fallacious argument in his defense) yet including four others so that you do not actually draw attention to him. FoS Goodkarma ##Vote: Mordanis | ||
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On August 03 2012 11:13 goodkarma wrote: Shady Sands is now confirmed town. He is the only person right now that everyone can trust without suspicion of alterior motives. To secure the majority and lynch a scum today, he needs to step up and tell everyone clearly who he plans to vote for and why. And everyone needs to vote for that person, regardless of if that's the "strongest read" they have or not. This is the only way we can guarantee a town majority that can lynch scum at this point. OK What the Fuck? So if we mislynch we have no information whatsoever because everyone just votes for one person regardless of their read. This is Fucking Retarded. This is trying to limit discussion 16 hours out from vote. | ||
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[QUOTE]On August 03 2012 11:13 goodkarma wrote: As I've already highlighted, I do not believe Mordanis is the best lynch choice. In my opinion, the two best candidates right now are: aRyuujin and Zorkmid. [QUOTE]On August 03 2012 11:13 goodkarma wrote: I know that Shady has voted Mordanis, but I'm giving him time to reaffirm or change his vote before I commit to changing mine[/quote] So After Mord has roughly 4 votes you concoct a gambit to make everyone vote for who shady votes for regardless of what they want. Then you heavily imply that he should change his vote on mord. | ||
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To add to my previous case. On August 03 2012 11:13 goodkarma wrote: As I've already highlighted, I do not believe Mordanis is the best lynch choice. In my opinion, the two best candidates right now are: aRyuujin and Zorkmid. On August 03 2012 11:13 goodkarma wrote: I know that Shady has voted Mordanis, but I'm giving him time to reaffirm or change his vote before I commit to changing mine So After Mord has roughly 4 votes you concoct a gambit to make everyone vote for who shady votes for regardless of what they want. Then you heavily imply that he should change his vote on mord. | ||
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There is a case on Zork. I just feel like it is weaker than the case on Mordanis. Add that to the fact that mord is once again ad hearing to his Modus Operandi. On August 02 2012 15:04 Shady Sands wrote: He's set up a rhythm here: find a weakness that isn't directly related to being scummy (newbieness and past play), second an accusation, then sit back and watch the fireworks, and possibly set up a (mis)lynch for the next day if possible. All this smacks of a very aggressive scum play. That once again it seems like he is getting out of a lynch despite the mountain of evidence against him and without even addressing the cases against him. (which he has never done) and the fact that GK seems to be colluding to defend him, to me, without a doubt, mord is [r]scum[/r]. | ||
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On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote:So what you're saying here, in other words, is: "I really like my case and anyone who doesn't agree with me is therefore against me. It's time I throw you under a bus..." No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that your reasoning behind defending Mord was, by your own admission, assumption and WIFOM. None of the cases on Mord have actually been answered. And your reasoning in your defense of him was essentially that he was too suspicious. I don't think is need to explain to you how null that argument is. On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote: I NEVER said that Mords's actions weren't suspicious, or that his play couldn't fit the play of a scum. However, I just don't see this compelling, damning evidence you seem to that shows that Mord is guilty. And as best I can see, the only way to truly "answer a case" is to lynch the guy. Mord is suspicious, but I feel that he is not the best candidate. And we don't have the luxury of another mislynch. No, but you have never said anything specific to the case against Mord beside defending him twice immediately after he accumulated more than 1 vote. Otherwise you have ignored him. Completely. Despite the large amount of discussion around him. I am not going to bother arguing with you on the evidence against Mord as you seem to be dead set on defending him. There are several cases against him. none of them have been answered. Read them. On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote: I have already conceded there might be some WIFOM in my Mord argument, so I can't see why you take such an aggressive stance. Especially since town's role is to get to the truth, not to persecute someone until lynch. My arguement brings more to the table to consider in the Mord case, and more information is always better than less. You have added no new information but WIFOM and speculation. your only posts on mord have been defending him since day 1 without any reasoning behind the defense, apart from that there are better candidates right now. Yet instead of posting cases on those you consider to have better cases you have only talked policy lynching lurkers. Your cases have continued to be on lurkers, and any posts not on lynching lurkers was defending mordanis really aggressively. On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote: That being said: I don't expect that mafia in a noobie game are going to make really sophisticated plays, like trying to bus each other, and that's why I still feel my new analysis on Mord. is relevant. Sorry if you can't see it that way. Since when was WIFOM and speculation 'analysis'? You yourself admit that mord seems scummy and could be scummy yet you are defending him and quite vigorously without addressing the cases against him at all or saying anything but: He seems scummy and could be scum but he is too suspicious. and then proceed to chainsaw defend him. TLDR You have Ignored Mordanis entirely unless defending him. your entire defense consists of WIFOM and Speculation. | ||
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On August 03 2012 14:50 goodkarma wrote: There is a case on Zorkmid... At least we can agree with me on that. Your out-of-nowhere conspiracy theory, though, to use Prox's words, is "Pants-on-Head Retarded." I give the town a winning strategy: Get behind a (confirmed town!) leader so we can come to a consensus and lynch a scum. This is something that no intelligent scum would do when without leadership all they need to do to win right now is sit in one spot and lurk around. Your strategy, on the other hand, seems to be: Mord. way, or the highway + Show Spoiler + (clever, huh? )#FoS DarthPunk All I hope is that Shady can rally everyone behind a candidate in time. And if he doesn't contribute any new discussion soon, I will be changing my vote to Mord to coincide with his. Even though I don't feel he's the strongest scum candidate, he definitely has done some scummy things, and to catch a scum at this time town needs to unite together. I recommend everyone to follow Shady's vote, as he's the only person right now town can trust. You may call it sheeping, but what's even worse is town sticks with their own scum reads on 2+ people, mafia lols, and no scum get lynched. TL;DR: United we stand. Divided we fall... Let me Illustrate why I disagree with your 'plan' of everyone vote who shady votes. I feel that this is MORE LIKELY to lead to a mislynch. You are taking away the power of our votes. you a reducing the robustness of the town by removing their tools (read their Vote) to find scum. It is a lot easier for scum if they know the outcome of a vote by reading one players position. It is a lot easier for scum to manipulate the vote of one player. A robust discussion with the ability to vote for your strongest read is to my mind a lot more valuable than a plan for the entire town to sheep one player. This sort of plan reeks of anti town play. On August 03 2012 14:50 goodkarma wrote: I give the town a winning strategy: Get behind a (confirmed town!) leader so we can come to a consensus and lynch a scum. This is something that no intelligent scum would do when without leadership all they need to do to win right now is sit in one spot and lurk around. It is great to have a confirmed town. and certainly you should give weight to his opinions. But I hardly call your plan a 'town winning strategy' blindly sheeping Shady Sands will reduce discussion because what point is there in making cases if we just blindly sheep one player? The main arguement you seem to be making is that because the town is divided [b]Right now[/b] we need to sheep shady. None of us are stupid. i have stated before and have stated again. If it comes down to a situation in which i am required to alter my vote in order to prevent a no lynch I will do that. So will everyone else here. The rest of your case against me seems to be OMGUS. I am pursuing Mord as he is by far my strongest read. The cases against him have not been answered and his quietly sitting behind the zorkmid case that ange777 made and "watching the fireworks" as shady put it. On August 03 2012 14:50 goodkarma wrote: Your strategy, on the other hand, seems to be: Mord. way, or the highway + Show Spoiler + (clever, huh? )Do you want me to cast suspicion on the entire town? It seems you have a vested interest in me discontinuing my case against mord. As I have said before I will alter my vote to prevent a no lynch or if i feel another case is stronger than the case on mord. I will not however, apologise for going after my strongest scum read and continuing to do so when he has not contributed an adequate defense. If you want to bring any real cases against me or anyone else I will be happy to read them and respond. That would be preferable to your posting today which has contained a chainsaw defense of mordanis, OMGUS, WIFOM and your 'town saving' let's sheep shady sands initiative. | ||
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On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: A final note to DP: I really don't hate you. But your play has been incredibly obnoxious (Really, you've been focused only on me except for a brief interlude pushing a case on Prom) to me and your refusal to even clarify your argument and your ignoring of what I have posted in defence and calling it weak without explaining is at best rude, at worst rude and incredibly arrogant. Hopefully you'll stop acting to this way, and if not then I guess I'll just have to avoid you, because I don't like people who are mean for the sake of being mean. Please read the part in the OP where it says "This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing." Before I address your post I wanted to respond to this, because I feel really bad about it. To Mord and anyone else that may be offended by my posting I apologise. To me this is a game and when I attack peoples posts I am just attacking their posts in the game, not them personally. I don't hate anyone here at all. Far from it. I am trying my best to play the game. Follow my reads etc. I really do not want to upset or offend anyone. And I especially do not want to make the game so unfun for people that they wish to stop playing. If whilst I pursue scum and make cases and counter cases etc. I come across that way, I once again apologise. Perhaps this is not the game for me. I will continue playing this game out. I am a friendly guy in real life but if this is a consistent feeling amongst all the players here then I do not like making others feel bad and therefore this will probably be my last game. Nonetheless. I am going to read your post and respond. | ||
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On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: So your claim to have been watching me the entire time. You jumped on my bandwagon before the cycle I was even lynched. Sweet. And yet you completely ignored me for the entirety of D2 while pushing your case on Prom. A case which was really weak. Why would you ignore someone you thought was scum for an entire 2 cycles (N2 also). Strange. Although this doesn't address the cases against you I will respond. I posted about you several times during day 2. They are contained within the case you quoted. I don't like to post much during night cycles as all it does is give mafia additional information upon which they can make a night kill. We can't lynch at night so I don't see the point in showing your hand. On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: I have no fucking clue what you mean about the case about my play D1. You say I lead the lynch hard and call that scummy but also call my suspicion of SS and my "lack of contribution" scummy. WTF does this mean. Then you call me retarded. Right. This has all been stated previously. But you seem to want me to state it all gain so here goes. The thing scummy with your day one play is that you lead the mislynch of Golbat for pretty much the entire day. After the bandwagon had started rolling you said that you read obvious' filter from the previous game and that convinced you enough that Golbat was townie that you unvoted him. You then second the position of others and voted Shady Sands without basing it on reasoning or adding anything to the case. The reason I believe this is scummy You lead a mislynch then once the ball was rolling you switched voted onto someone elses case. I believe you did that in order to distance you self from the mislynch and to set up a potential mis-lynch day 2. After receiving pressure from this turn of events from myself and Keirathi. you revert to your original position on Golbat. You were still one of the last to vote for golbat, despite leading his mislynch and amidst the confusion i believe you achieved your goal. To lead a mislynch on golbat whilst attempting to distance yourself from it, and potentially set up a mislynch on shady sands for the following cycle. I Have stated this a few times. I apologise if it was not clear enough to understand. On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: DP again misreads my post on Prom. I said I was confused by his play, I did not say it was scummy. You posted a case on him and stated he was mildly scummy. Furthermore you were incredibly wishy-washy in your conclusion. Which is the main thing that is scummy because it was a dramatic shift in style from your day 1 play and allowed you to follow the position of others without sticking your neck out. On July 31 2012 19:10 Mordanis wrote: Essentially, from what I've read about XIX Promethelax kind of mauled town by getting into the "town circle", and controlling the game from there. I don't think a smart person could try the same strategy against people its already been used on and expect to win again. For that reason, Promethelax's inconsistent/illogical/ seems to be a mild indicator of scumminess. Also, being relatively inactive during one day reduces the amount of stuff any player needs to defend himself later. Edit before having to double post (EBHTDP) I am still confused by large parts of his play. For instance the part about lynching semi-lurkers seems sort of like what he's doing. GK hasn't posted nearly as many times as Prom himself, myself, Keir, Ange, Obvious, or Shady. 6 players of 12 left have 3 or more pages in their filter, the other 6 have 2. GK has spent a lot of his time defending himself, so if you take that away he's pretty lurky. But the caffeine is wearing off now, see y'all in the morning. Still, I like the content he generated with that post on GK, so I'll be watching Prom closely. I seriously need to pass out now though :/[/QUOTE] On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: DP then goes on to say that my not wanting to vote without information is scummy. Why? Scum know the flip, and with their handy-dandy knowledge of who's who its a lot easier to understand peoples' play. Who is killed doesn't matter as much to scum either because as long as it furthers their goal of remaining undetected, they are happy with the result. They keep their kp. Town, on the other hand, gets only one vote for one lynch per day. With very limited information, trying to get information before voting seems rather more suited towards town play than scum. I disagree. You had all day to review the thread, filters and to post cases. Yet the posts you made were very wishy-washy. etc and non-committal. Waiting to see who others will vote for is scummy behaviour because it allows you to just join the most popular bandwagon in order to seem less conspicuous. Which is Exactly what you did in the end. During your vote you were wishy-washy and it seemed you were distancing yourself from the mislynch. I feel like what i have already posted on this topic makes sense. If you didn't think prox was scum why did you vote for him? If you did why were you so wishywashy and attempt to distance yourself from the lynch before he flipped the elegant solution is that you knew he was going to flip green and wanted to distance yourself from the mislynch but still ensure it happened. Therefore I feel it is scummy. On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: Again DP completely ignores what he just posted on me to build his nonsensical case on me. The previous thing that he called me out for being wishy-washy is my reason for thinking the lynch on Prom was a bad choice. Prom's play was confusing, but it didn't help scum really. He called me out for thinking it was a weak case but ignores my explanation for why and then calls me out for not explaining why I thought it was a weak case. Wow, that logic seemed pretty circular. Long story short, the few things in this case that might seem weird have no justification for why they are scummy, and the rest is DP citing one short period of time and calling me out for doing one thing and the opposite of that thing. DP is either too busy eating glue to think, too biased to think critically, or scum. I really don't understand this argument at all really. This is not true at all. I thought the cases on you were quite clear and I didn't feel the need to repeat the cases against you again. Your explanations I feel have not been adequate and seem to confirm you are scum because your defense of the case against you has been a mess. Others can understand the points and cases against you. I just assumed you would too. (as I said previously I am sorry if you feel I have been/am being rude and obnoxious towards you. I am just arguing my case it is not personal) | ||
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On August 03 2012 16:50 DarthPunk wrote: Although this doesn't address the cases against you I will respond. I posted about you several times during day 2. They are contained within the case you quoted. I don't like to post much during night cycles as all it does is give mafia additional information upon which they can make a night kill. We can't lynch at night so I don't see the point in showing your hand. This has all been stated previously. But you seem to want me to state it all gain so here goes. The thing scummy with your day one play is that you lead the mislynch of Golbat for pretty much the entire day. After the bandwagon had started rolling you said that you read obvious' filter from the previous game and that convinced you enough that Golbat was townie that you unvoted him. You then second the position of others and voted Shady Sands without basing it on reasoning or adding anything to the case. The reason I believe this is scummy You lead a mislynch then once the ball was rolling you switched voted onto someone elses case. I believe you did that in order to distance you self from the mislynch and to set up a potential mis-lynch day 2. After receiving pressure from this turn of events from myself and Keirathi. you revert to your original position on Golbat. You were still one of the last to vote for golbat, despite leading his mislynch and amidst the confusion i believe you achieved your goal. To lead a mislynch on golbat whilst attempting to distance yourself from it, and potentially set up a mislynch on shady sands for the following cycle. I Have stated this a few times. I apologise if it was not clear enough to understand. I disagree. You had all day to review the thread, filters and to post cases. Yet the posts you made were very wishy-washy. etc and non-committal. Waiting to see who others will vote for is scummy behaviour because it allows you to just join the most popular bandwagon in order to seem less conspicuous. Which is Exactly what you did in the end. During your vote you were wishy-washy and it seemed you were distancing yourself from the mislynch. I feel like what i have already posted on this topic makes sense. If you didn't think prox was scum why did you vote for him? If you did why were you so wishywashy and attempt to distance yourself from the lynch before he flipped the elegant solution is that you knew he was going to flip green and wanted to distance yourself from the mislynch but still ensure it happened. Therefore I feel it is scummy. I really don't understand this argument at all really. This is not true at all. I thought the cases on you were quite clear and I didn't feel the need to repeat the cases against you again. Your explanations I feel have not been adequate and seem to confirm you are scum because your defense of the case against you has been a mess. Others can understand the points and cases against you. I just assumed you would too. (as I said previously I am sorry if you feel I have been/am being rude and obnoxious towards you. I am just arguing my case it is not personal) | ||
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On August 03 2012 15:56 goodkarma wrote: @DarthPunk: I read Mord.'s terrible Keir arguement during the opening of the game, and I have seen his wishy-washy, noncommital arguements against people such as Prox. I agree with the cases brought against him. His actions certainly have made him look scummy, but I feel they are being taken into consideration without considering if he could play the same way as town. Look at where "scum reads" have gotten us days one and two. Golbat and Prox., in my opinion, played town terribly. But just as much as it was their responsibility to prove their innocence, it was ours to determine if their motivations could fit those of a townie playing badly. While I agree that Mord. could very well be scum, from what I've seen he could also be a town that isn't playing very well. Since that perspective hasn't been contributed by others, that is what I've brought to the "Mord. case." And as for my statistics: feel free to call it speculation, but if I'm right there are scum that have also contributed to the case against him and want him lynched. As for pursuing lurky-type persons? There are about three "lurkers," all of which have acted suspiciously (aRyuujin, Zork, JingleHell), and three mafia. There is no reason to assume that all mafia this game couldn't be "lurkers." Feel free to call me biased toward only lurkers, but remember I've also made a case against Prox who definitely wasn't a lurker in day 2. On the other hand, you are definitely biased toward only finding "loud scum." And there's no guarantee scum in the "loud" category even exist this game. The bottom line: scum is scum, no matter where they come from. My strongest reads happen to come from the "lurker" category right now. I have made what I feel to be a strong case against aRyuujin, and have added to the case against Zork. I encourage you to read what I've written on them, and tell me exactly why it is my case is weaker than your Mord. case. And I am 100% certain that aRyuujin, specifically, will not contribute any more than he already has. Everything about his play screams scum to me, perhaps just as much as everything about Mord. seems to scream scum to you. And unlike everyone else here, no further evidence is going to come up to convince others that hasn't shown already since he has become methodical with his "rehash arguement, make FoS, later make vote" routine. I feel justified in pushing my case for his lynch today, because I know that if he is scum (and I'm quite sure he is), and it gets to LYLO he will get a free pass thanks to people like you, and will be able to passively win the game. Ok I will read through them now and get back to you. This post is alot better as it doesn't contain WIFOM or speculation. Those things really rub me the wrong way. | ||
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On August 03 2012 16:54 Ange777 wrote: @Darthpunk: Please tell me why you think that my case on Zork is weaker? There literally IS a scumslip and yet you don't vote for him? My case on Zork: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#760 sure thing I was getting to those anyway. | ||
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On August 03 2012 17:25 goodkarma wrote: [/b]@Shady, wherever you are: I hope you have good reason to be away from these forums... We need 6/7 town to get lynch majority... With our current division, I just don't see that happening... I still believe that banding together around Shady was our best chance, and I hope he returns to provide his impressions with the most recently presented cases. I feel very uneasy about voting Mord. On top of the reasons I've already presented, aRyuujin, my top scum suspect, has also gotten onto that bandwaggon. If Shady comes back and decides Mord. is still his best choice, then fine. Until then: b]##unvote ##Vote: Zorkmid Zorkmid is an obvious scum. I sincerely hope that Darthpunk will change his vote. Even then, I can't help but feel that town is in trouble here. -_- I will be checking this forum again before the deadline, and will only consider changing my vote to one of the following to achieve a majority lynch: aRyuujin, JinglHells, or Shady's choice (if he ever provides an update post). Good luck all... Can I just clarify before you leave why you are voting for Zork if Aryuujin is your top scum read. also. SEE waiting around for shady sands to see who to vote for is ridiculous. I am SO GLAD you are going back on that. | ||
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On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. Ok my analysis - ignoring the scum slip which I will get to later. Zork is playing really badly. He is playing really badly as town OR as scum. He has been confused more than once as to what is happening in the game, who he has suspicions on etc. On July 31 2012 22:02 Zorkmid wrote: I honestly just forgot about SS, but your accusation has led me to go back through his filter. I've noticed that he has never addressed my accusation about him. On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. Which makes me tend to believe him when he says that he is not paying attention to the thread because of IRL commitments. Because why? what are the scum motivations behind his posts? This is still bad play and hurts town. As I said earlier It isn't easy to get a scum read when there has been so little activity from him. His posts make no sense as either scum or town. He is Lurking though. If we get to LYLO and we have nothing to go off in terms of reads that is a major liability. on the scum slip. @ange777 I don't think your logic is as iron clad as you believe. On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote: I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness What I think he is trying to say is this. He thinks saying this is scummy. No town player would need to say this, he is town so he wouldn't say it. It is WIFOM and speculation and is written poorly. (which I hate) yet can't see a scum motivation or plan for this. It is possible that he is scum and that this is the evidence. It is also possible that he is bad at explaining himself, a poor writer and you are reading too much into this. Your entire case is based around reading a few statements a certain way, and thus seems to be weaker than my case on mordanis and weaker than your case on mordanis (that you seem to have dropped off the face of the earth). If it comes to a no lynch situation I will be willing to change my vote. (as everyone should be) but at this time the cases on Mordanis are far stronger. If people are set on lynching lurky players aRyuujin is a stronger lynch IMO. He has less than a one page filter he votes Golbat day 1. went AFK for 2 cycles comes back and puts a vote on mord that just echos my position and then leaves again. I wish we still had a Vig cause aRyuujin has been and will increasingly become a serious liability. | ||
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On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. This whilst far from enough to convince me of his innocence, IS a plausible explanation of his slip. I am not comfortable with risking a mislynch on a player based off reading one sentence a certain way when there is a plausible explanation which can cause it to be looked at in a different way. Remember the last 'scumslip' in this game. With golbat? I don't want a repeat of that. So I need more than the perceived Scumslip to go off on Zorkmid. The rest of the case is much less developed. 1. semi-lurking 2. posting inconsistently 3. waiting for cases to sheep These are all true. And I have read his filter several times. However, as I have said before, I feel the cases on mordanis are much stronger. In terms of the MrMedic thing that you have mentioned a few times. I noticed reading through his filter that he was actually talking about aRyuujin in the post you referenced. as I stated previously I can't see any logical motivation to his posting. Although I don't see how having little if any defense at all on a case against him proves his motive one way or another. If he wrote a disproportionate amount in his defense and on closer inspection it contained nothing of substance that would give me a definite scum vibe. but no defense at all? I can't see that helping scum OR town. If we are going to lynch a lurker which seems to be the other main argument against Zorkmid I would rather lynch the player with a 1 page filter than the one with a 3 page filter. As for the thing with jingle. I will need to read through it again. | ||
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Yeah I know he said the wrong person. He is very confused and constantly make mistakes. But if you replace prom with GK the intent behind it is Plausible. On August 03 2012 01:55 Zorkmid wrote: I think that you, just like MrMedic, owe us an explanation of who you would have voted for and why. If it weren't for the Mod lowering the number of votes required, there would have been a no-lynch. This is the post you are referencing correct? he is asking aRyuujin to write a post like MrMedic did after MrMedic missed the day 1 lynch. that's all. I was wondering what you were talking about in regards to that but it seems you misunderstood. His writing isn't great. On August 03 2012 20:01 DarthPunk wrote: I think your case against Mordanis is good. But right now, I am not willing to vote for someone, whom I think has a decent chance of flipping scum when I am convinced that Zork will flip scum! This is the problem I have as well. | ||
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If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever. This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful. Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do. | ||
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On August 03 2012 21:34 Ange777 wrote: And that's why not keeping up with the correct facts and misquoting other player's statements can't be only deemed as a tell for bad town players but has to make him scummy as well. Yep. You are exactly right. that is why I can't be 100% sure if he is playing badly as scum or playing badly as town. | ||
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We seem to have exactly the same positions as each other on our respective lynches. I don't supposed I have convinced you to vote for Mordanis again? | ||
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What I don't understand about the mistakes he made, and this didn't come across in your case on him, Is what motivation could he have for playing so badly? All the other mistakes that have been made in this game to me seem to have been trying to confuse peoples cases, distance themselves from mislynches, cause a mislynch etc. Thoughts? | ||
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On August 03 2012 22:19 Ange777 wrote: @DarthPunk: You said you will re-read my case on Jingle? What's your opinion? On August 03 2012 06:01 Ange777 wrote: [/b]But only a couple of hours later (to be precise directly after I had posted my case against Zork) you had miraculously not only finished reading the thread, no you also had a very strong conviction that I am scummy. Based on arguments you yet have to show me. And while you have been tunneling me you have totally ignored my case on Zork based on his scumslip and the following reactions. Would you please give me a town motivation for ignoring the case on Zork? Oh, and please keep in mind, attacking me doesn't qualify as a defense! So this is just wrong. Jingle started airing suspicions against you well before you started going after zork. In no way is the jingle situation between you and him relevant to the zork case. I don't know why you would draw that connection at all. If you had read the last game you will see that jingle caught scum by Identifying and avoiding a similar situation so it is understandable that he would be on the look out for a repeat of that. Your response to him was OMGUS and WIFOM. I can understand why he finds you suspicious, particularly when you immediately become super aggressive towards him when he posts a case on you. I don't really think you have a case on him to be honest. I initially had a small town read on you but after actually reading through the discussion between yourself and jingle I am starting to worry about you. Your reaction to jingle's pressure was an incredibly disproportionate response, and trying to draw a connection to a case you posted hours after jingle had first cast suspicion on you is very suspicious to me. I don't see any connections whatsoever between Jingles pressure on you and your case on zork. I have no idea why you would try and draw a connection that wasn't there. It seems to be OMGUS. but I don't like the fact that several aspects of your case (Jingle connection, MrMedic post) seem to have fallen apart on closer inspection and the fact that many of the other points could just be bad town play, makes me even more wary of following your lynch on Zork. It seems like it is just an attempt to make an easy mislynch on a lurky bad town player. | ||
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On August 03 2012 23:35 alan133 wrote: @Mordanis I am disappointed. No one ever look at any case I wrote. Are they that bad? Am I being ignored? No. Not even Mordanis feels he needs to waste his energy posting a defence. Do you think it suck so bad it does not even matter, or you are just ignoring it, like how you have been ignoring other people's case on you, for being widely inactive, and over-apologetic. Why was MY post never taken seriously all the time? Do I suck that bad? I know how you feel. I feel like my cases on mord are never answered properly and then a bandwagon forms that mord starts or jumps onto and someone is mislynched On August 03 2012 23:35 alan133 wrote: Why are you ignoring my defence on your case against me? Did you just randomly pick two players and attack them? Once one of them sparked a Zorkmid bandwagon you totally forgotten about me? Do I still deserve my FOS or not? Did my defence cleared myself out of doubt or not? On August 02 2012 15:04 Shady Sands wrote: He's set up a rhythm here: find a weakness that isn't directly related to being scummy (newbieness and past play), second an accusation, then sit back and watch the fireworks, and possibly set up a (mis)lynch for the next day if possible. All this smacks of a very aggressive scum play. YEP | ||
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On August 04 2012 00:46 Obvious.660 wrote: Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep. I don't see how the mord case is a 'counter-wagon' to anything. Read through the thread. The case on mord began before the case on zork even started. Even Ange777 made a case on mord before she started her case on Zork. The case against him has not been answered aside from asking what the case against him was when several cases on him had been posted he has done nothing but second ange's position and then disappeared from the thread. | ||
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On August 04 2012 01:01 goodkarma wrote: Considering the stubbornness with which both JingleHell and Zork have voted for their candidates and haven't tried to help with securing a lynch majority, it is clear as day to me that they are scum. Then there is only one scum remaining, and he is voting FOR ONE OF THE TWO CANDIDATES with four votes. With Zork pegged as scum, one of the three remaining people is also scum: alan133, aRyuujin, Darthpunk. I said before that I would stand by Shady Sands, after he had already voted for Mord. Instead of helping town, he's afked, and in the process has let town down  . I am nearly 100% certain at this point that Mord. is innocent, but shady is only confirmed town meaning EVERY TOWN REMAINING would have to vote for the other candidate, Zork, for Zork to be lynched. That's simply not going to happen. And at this point, it feels just as unlikely that whichever other two town are on Mord. will be changing their votes... In other words, I'm pretty sure today is no-lynch.There is also the possibility that JingleHell and Zork would tack onto the innocent candidate bandwaggon, which could secure the majority, but would condemn them as scum. I don't see that happening, though honestly it is their best move (lol) since it would guarantee LYLO for town. Ironically, if town no lynches today, a situation I hadn't considered, town in fact still isn't in LYLO. This is a situation I hadn't accounted for, but the complete gridlock in the voting has clearly demonstrated where some of the scum are. A lot of information has been presented from voting patterns even without a lynch. So while I could switch my vote to an innocent man, and stay true to my word, I prefer hypocrisy. My plan with Shady as leader is still the best chance for town, and hopefully town will realize that tomorrow. But the biggest component of that plan, Shady himself, needs to become proactive in rallying town together for that plan to work. Further, if we were just to lynch: Zork and JingleHell the next two days, and cop were to survive, then: We could go from a 1/3 chance to catch the last scum and win to a much better chance (not 100%... the last scum could still be godfather..., ((1/3)(1/3)+(1)(2/3))*100 = ~78% if you really wanted to know). I know that some might consider everything I've just said speculation, but nothing in this game is certain. I strongly believe that today's voting patterns have pegged two scum, and provided us the place to look for the last one. I look forward to hearing everyone's opinions tonight. Wait how did mord go from suspicious to a confirmed town? ok this is the most retarded thing I have ever read. You have spent the best part of the day saying we should all lynch who shady wants in order to secure a lynch, and now you are saying we should no lynch. Everyone who hasn't voted your way is now potentially scum and this Considering the stubbornness with which both JingleHell and Zork have voted for their candidates and haven't tried to help with securing a lynch majority, it is clear as day to me that they are scum. Is not a read, not a case. Do you think if zork was around he wouldn't vote for mord to save himself. Jingle has a case against ange777 that has not been answered. But Somehow not answering cases against you is a sure way to prove you are town. WTF? | ||
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I mean honestly. I can't even begin to express how badly my mind is blown at that post. | ||
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I find it unbelievable mord is escaping a lynch once again. ##:Unvote ##:vote: zorkmid | ||
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On August 04 2012 03:05 Zorkmid wrote: I didn't want to have to do this just yet. I am a Doctor On day one I saved Keir. Day 2 I attempted to save aRyuujin. I tried to breadcrumb this early on. ##unvote ##vote Mordanis I think we're going to lose. Wait? what the fuck? how is that a breadcrumb? | ||
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Right. well as i see no breadcrumb in the quote I don;t see why anyone should believe you. | ||
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Why would you try to medic save the person that had missed a vote and has been the most inactive? I don't buy it at all. | ||
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I am going to write up a long post addressing the cases against me. On the thing with the post timing. It was 4am at the time and I wanted to get some sleep. It was tied at 5-5 and even though I was leaning towards Zork being just a bad townie rather than scum. I would rather lynch him than a no lynch. I actually didn't see zorks post because it happened whilst I was writing mine. I honestly just wanted to go to bed and didn't want to risk a no lynch. (obviously I stayed up for an extra hour because of his medic claim.) I have suspicions on who may be scum and I will make a case on them at some stage also. But I have some reading to do before class tomorrow so it won't come immediately (I will work on these posts on and off all day) That being said we are in a really good position at the moment. So I am glad people didn't listen to me which is ironic because yesterday I was annoyed mord was getting away again. | ||
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On August 05 2012 05:21 Mordanis wrote: DP: Why did you change your vote from someone you've been suspicious of literally all game to someone you've only defended, in the middle of a tied vote situation, for the most vague reason possible. I said I would. I think it was to Ange in the second part of day 2. I was always willing to change my vote to avoid a no lynch. at that point in time I had every intention of going to sleep and didn't want to leave it in the hands of others. Would I rather people to have changed their votes to you at that time 100% yes. But I didn't see that happening and some were even putting forward the idea of a no lynch which i was 100% against. So I tried to consolidate the vote onto one candidate. I am not sure others would have switched off mord had zork not made his medic claim. Anyway that was my thoughts behind it. | ||
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On August 05 2012 05:58 Ange777 wrote: He (myself) further states that he can't see any kind of scum motivation for a scum Jingle to tunnel me and discredit me when I am pushing the case on scum Zork. On August 05 2012 05:49 JingleHell wrote: By the way, since we're kinda up to our neck in WIFOM right now regarding the "case" on me anyways... Why the hell would I, if I was scum, come into the thread taking some convoluted route of being suspicious of people who weren't under fire? I could have easily taken the easy way out, piled onto Mordanis, and played the "unbiased outsider" card people were handing me to agree with the case against him? If you think that makes sense from the hypothetical scum me viewpoint, I think I'm going to take it as an insult. This is part of the reason the Jingle case does not make sense to me. When he first came to the thread people were even talking about everyone sheeping his vote (obvious). If he was scum I see no rational in his play. He could have just quietly jumped on a bandwagon and consolidated the goodwill that everyone was showing him when he first joined. Instead he disregards staying alive and makes his own reads, own case and starts pressuring those people. To me this is town behaviour and would be retarded as scum. I don't get why everyone thinks that all scum in the game were forming a counter wagon to zork. He was a bad player I think everyone can agree on that. I don't know why people think that scum would go all in in order to save someone whom was obviously a liability. That is largely WIFOM though, which I dislike. | ||
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On August 05 2012 16:05 goodkarma wrote: @Darthpunk: I definitely find it plausible you were unaware of Zork's incriminating post, since your vote change and his post were only 2 minutes apart. That being said, there are other explanations for this behavior... For now I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this point. As for your defense of Jingle, it may not have been optimal for a scum to stick his neck out and vote for his own candidate in the way that Jingle has. However, for what it's worth, Zork did pretty much the same thing. The case against Jingle isn't just about voting patterns, but also about his actions. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on some of the other scum reads on Jingle described by Shady, Ange, and myself. There's more to it than that he proposed his own candidate and voted for him. @Goodkarma: The post you are referencing is not my stance on the Jingle case as a whole but a reply to Ange777 on why I could not find a scum motive behind jingles actions (this is during day 2 not taking account the further cases against him). I am really sorry but I have gotten really behind on my reading for University and so I will probably not be finished with it until later tonight. I am really sorry but I will certainly be contributing more once I am done. | ||
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On August 05 2012 17:19 aRyuujin wrote: On Darthpunk: like others have noted, that 'breadcrumb' by zork could easily have been just a way to give DP an excuse to seem anti zork. Note how previously, he was reluctant on voting zork, and finally changed when he saw there was no point in not doing so. This is a typical scum move, just trying to blend in with the other townies and going with the bandwagon. In fact, at one point he even calls zork a bad player (presumably for pulling the crappy breadcrumb stunt). This falls in sync with DP's other actions regarding the mordanis vs zork swap. Have you even read my filter? I have been calling zork a bad player since he was first ever mentioned. I did not see the breadcrumb until after I posted, because it was posted as I wrote the post switching to zork. If I was using the breadcrumb as some sort of justification for swapping why did the post in which I swapped make no mention of it? I said, as soon as it became clear that it was between zork and mord for the lynch that I would alter my vote in order to avoid a mislynch. At that point it was 5v5 and with GK pushing for a no lynch i consolidated onto zorkmid. Even though I thought zork was suspicious, I was certain that Mord was scum. I was wrong. But i still pushed the lynch that I thought would most likely hit scum. In fact, my position was almost the same as ange's except I was wrong and he was right. If that had been reversed it would be ange in the position that I am in now. I had a read wrong. I thought that Zork was just a bad town player, because I assumed scum actions would be less haphazard and more thought out. I saw scum motive in Mordanis' behaviour and it turns out I was wrong as well. Perhaps it was confirmation bias. But many of you shared suspicions of mordanis actions during both day 1 and 2. When I originally thought about zork. I questioned how scum could make such silly mistakes and be so blatantly bad. This is the reason I thought he may be town. Scum have the ability to communicate, they can aid each other in their posting etc. and are therefore less likely to make the flagrant errors zorkmid did. But now that I know zork was scum my perspective on certain things has been altered. It is very possible zork was a bus because scum were so far ahead at that point in the game. If he was a bus? with the cases people are making right now? we are screwed. | ||
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On August 05 2012 05:58 Ange777 wrote: He says the case is weaker. No reasons. When I ask him for his reasoning: A huge soft defense on Zork. DarthPunk explains that everything I believe makes Zork scummy can be explained as bad town play. Therefore there would be no evidence for lynching Zork and instead we should just lynch aRyuujin if we were after a lurker. When I again push DarthPunk for more reasons on why he thinks Zork is town he states: You specifically asked me to state the reasons I thought the case on zork was weaker than the case on mordanis. You are now calling my reasoning behind why the case on zork was weaker that you asked for as a huge soft defense on zork WTF? I answered a question you asked as transparently as possible and you are now delivering that answer without context as me defending a scum. and therefore I should be lynched. I admitted there was a case on zork/zork was suspicious. I thought it was weaker than my case on mord because I believed he was just as likely to be a bad townie as a bad scum. And I was 100% certain that mord was scum. You are now presenting my answers on why I thought Zork was a weaker case, as me defending scum zork. Right. On August 05 2012 05:58 Ange777 wrote: He explains that he now believes me scummy and that my replys were disproportinate. And does not explain what exactly made him change his mind. He further states that he can't see any kind of scum motivation for a scum Jingle to tunnel me and discredit me when I am pushing the case on scum Zork. But he was able to see so much town motivation for Zork's play to defend him over and over again. And again he mentions that I am trying to get a lurker lynched while I have repeatedly said that my main reason for lynching Zork is not his semi-lurking. Jingle started making a case on you hours before your case on zork. Your main argument against Jingle was that he was chainsaw defending zork. The reason I found this scummy? you seemed to be DESPERATE to try and establish a link between zork and Jingle that wasn't there and quite obviously wasn't there. I have already posted on the motivation isssue. I would say check my filter, but it is obvious no one is doing that. So here it is: On August 05 2012 11:47 DarthPunk wrote: This is part of the reason the Jingle case does not make sense to me. When he first came to the thread people were even talking about everyone sheeping his vote (obvious). If he was scum I see no rational in his play. He could have just quietly jumped on a bandwagon and consolidated the goodwill that everyone was showing him when he first joined. Instead he disregards staying alive and makes his own reads, own case and starts pressuring those people. To me this is town behaviour and would be retarded as scum. I don't get why everyone thinks that all scum in the game were forming a counter wagon to zork. He was a bad player I think everyone can agree on that. I don't know why people think that scum would go all in in order to save someone whom was obviously a liability. That is largely WIFOM though, which I dislike. read that. On August 05 2012 05:58 Ange777 wrote: The timing is so close that I could say that scum discussed their situation in the scum QT and decided to concede in the Zork lynch. Why would DarthPunk otherwise switch his vote? There was still a lot of time for him to potentially convince others to vote for Mordanis. This is no last minute vote switch just to ensure that there is a majority at the deadline. And it's not like he was heading to bed anyway and needed to put the vote on Zork before leaving as he was still awake an hour later. Posted on this also: On August 05 2012 11:27 DarthPunk wrote: I said I would. I think it was to Ange in the second part of day 2. I was always willing to change my vote to avoid a no lynch. at that point in time I had every intention of going to sleep and didn't want to leave it in the hands of others. Would I rather people to have changed their votes to you at that time 100% yes. But I didn't see that happening and some were even putting forward the idea of a no lynch which i was 100% against. So I tried to consolidate the vote onto one candidate. I am not sure others would have switched off mord had zork not made his medic claim. Anyway that was my thoughts behind it. Honestly I don't see what else there is to say. There is a fundamental lack of a case present in your case. What I will say is this. I am very fucking suspicious of you right now. You seem to have been desperate to link jingle hell to your zorkmid case even though his case on you began hours earlier. You asked me several times to state why I felt the Zork case was weaker, and are now using all those answers you dug for yesterday in order to build a case that isn't there. It seems as if you 100% KNEW that zork would flip red. And then desperately tried to manufacture connections to him wherever you could. I can 100% see a scum motivation for this you bussed zork and not only gained 'confirmed town' status but have also set up 2 mislynches. | ||
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On August 05 2012 18:45 Ange777 wrote: A wise man once said: When you are ahead, get more ahead. Why bus their own team member when scum could have easily get a mislynch on another townie: Mordanis? Votes were stuck evenly for quite a long time. Anyway, I want to hear your scum reads. I have a feeling you are accusing me of bussing Zork? What? you had suspicions that that is where I was going before I even accused you? Is this because it is the one thing you are afraid of people thinking? | ||
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On August 05 2012 18:26 alan133 wrote: @DarthPunk The conclusion I made above convinced me DarthPunk is the potential last scum, given that no bussing occurred. I went through his huge filter and was hoping to find one slip that can nail him, and have yet to find anything substantial. His blatant defences on Zorkmid is definitely scum motivated, and I know I also "defended" zorkmid, I hope you all see that I have been consistent with defending people who I thought was being called out for the wrong reasons. I would like to put my vote on VOTE## JingleHell, and FOS## DarthPunk. I believe we got this in the bag  I didn't "defend" zork. In fact I stated several times to the very person who is accusing me in the very posts he is quoting (I know, right) that I thought he was suspicious and that there certainly was a case against him. Then when prompted I discussed my thoughts on why he was a weaker lynch than Mord. It seems people are very interested to perpetuating this myth. | ||
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On August 05 2012 20:09 Ange777 wrote: Yes, I asked you why you believe the Zork case to be weaker. The only explanation you were offering was he might just be a bad townie. You were not even convinced of his bad town status yourself, you were only giving him the benefit of doubt. This of course will look like a huge soft defense after a red flip. Yes I believed he may just be a bad town. I also believed he could be a bad scum. However I was 100% convinced that mord was scum. So I followed my own case I had made over several days and that I was 100% sure of. Rather than switch to a case I was 50/50 on until it was evident that there would be a no lynch if I did not switch. (which I had stated previously to you I would do, so why is it so surprising that I carried through on my word?) Is that a problem? On August 05 2012 20:09 Ange777 wrote: This of course will look like a huge soft defense after a red flip. Except the 'soft defense' you are speaking of is entirely of your own making through asking me for my thought processes behind not voting your way. You obviously were aware of how the questions you asked would cause me to look when zork flipped red and thus proceeded to lead me into a trap that I was blissfully unaware of until now. On August 05 2012 20:09 Ange777 wrote: You proceed to say that I tried and still am trying to link Zork with Jingle. While I agree that he first caught my eye due to his behaviour towards Zork (not commenting on Zork at all etc) He did not catch your eye because of zork. Why are you lying? the situation between yourself and jingle started BEFORE YOUR CASE ON ZORK Originally I thought it was just an OMGUS against Jingle. I later found the case on jingle suspicious because you were trying to link someone who had cast suspicion on you BEFORE YOUR CASE ON ZORK to Zork when the link obviously wasn't there at that time. On August 05 2012 20:09 Ange777 wrote: Regarding the last past: Yes, I knew that Zork would flip red because I saw the scumslip which everyone else failed to see. You say that you see a scum motivation for me to make the case against Zork but you are not willing to give me any benefit of doubt (which you were so happy to give to Zork) that I might have just saw the scumslip, be convinced of Zork's scum-alignment by it and therefore started the case? Instead you claim that me making the Zork case was 100% scum motivation? You knew zork would flip red based on a scumslip you had ignored for an entire day and even quoted when unvoting him to join the prom bandwagon? A scum slip that still could have very easily come from a bad town? If zork was a bus then scum are in a FAR better position now than if we had mislynched mordanis. They have set up consecutive lynches into the future. They have sewn this game up. I see a scum motivation for you. I did not see any motivation for zorks blatantly bad play. Until now. | ||
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On August 05 2012 21:00 Ange777 wrote: I am not lying. The situation with Jingle might have started earlier. But everyone makes bad cases from time to time. That's why I didn't give it that much thought when Jingle first started to accuse me. I only became really suspicious of him when he continued to accuse me (without good reason), voted for me and refused to even acknowledge the fact that there were cases against other people as well. OK so what you are saying is that jingle predicted ahead of time that you would make a case on zork and then began tunnelling you ahead of time in order to save his scum buddy? Is that how jingle and zork are linked? | ||
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Why are you saying that you are sheeping mords case? are you trying to make it seem as if it was a confirmed towns error when you mislynch me? the whole reason there is a case is from what you baited from me. Why ask for my opinion if you were confirmed in your mind that zork was 100% town? I was obviously stupid enough to have an open and transparent discussion with you over my thoughts in good faith. And you are now using that to say I was defending him (you knew i wouldn't be screaming he was scum or I would have voted for him) and now you are distancing yourself from my mislynch by saying you are sheeping a dead town. Your excuse on missing the slip the first time is the weakest excuse ever..You had a vote on zork but you were only analysing him as if he were town? wtf? do i seem stupid to you? OK going to bed. won;t be around for 12 hours. | ||
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On August 06 2012 07:10 Ange777 wrote: So if you have been avidly following my conversation with DarthPunk you will probably have realized we don't really see eye to eye. Now I am going to give him another reason to disagree with me. I am proposing to lynch DarthPunk first instead of Jingle. You might think that it does seem like an aweful OMGUS vote after I have been vividly arguing with DarthPunk but OMGUS isn't about WHO you vote, it's about HOW you vote them. A vote is only OMGUS if you're voting them BECAUSE they voted you. If you vote them for a well-thought-out reason, even if they also voted you, then it's not OMGUS. Let's first go through the reasons why I wanted to vote him anyway: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=48#945 1. During the Zork lynch discussion DarthPunk repeatedly soft-defended Zork, pushed Mordanis as lynch candidate and proposed to lynch aRyuujin instead of Zork. 2. He switches votes very conveniently at around the same time when Zork fake claims medic. I believe that scum decided in their QT to concede to the Zork lynch. Instead of really defending himself against my accusations DarthPunk makes a huge WIFOM explanation and decides to paint me scummy by saying I set him up with a trap. He denies me any kind of town motivation for pointing out Zork's scumslip. Yet he was happy to give Zork the benefit of doubt until last minute even though many people pointed out his scum behaviour. I see a clear scum motivation for his behaviour: 1. Save Zork and mislynch Mordanis (or aRyuujin at least) instead 2. When there is no way to save Zork, switch the vote before Zork's claim to get a bit of town cred 3. Discredit me as I am the most active power behind his lynch and mislynch me instead With him being called out as scum by several people DarthPunk is just flailing around desperately trying to shift the attention to someone, anyone besides himself. He didn't even give us any other reads besides me. I can only repeat it: This is no pro town play! DarthPunk, I'd really like to congratulate you for writing the best case on yourself -> your own filter! So why lynch DarthPunk before Jingle? After all this discussion I am even more convinced of him being scum than I am of Jingle. I made the case on Jingle because there was no town motivation for his awful play. If he isn't just simply bad he must be scum. However this case against DarthPunk is based on his clear scum motivation and not based on the lack of town motivation. To make it clear: If I am 99% convinced that Jingle is scum, than I am 100% convinced that DarthPunk is scum. In my opinion we can not let him get away with this! ##Unvote ##Vote DarthPunk OK all 3 of those points I have covered already. If you are refusing to see the reasoning behind it. Now you are saying that because I did not present cases that you asked for I am scum? I said I would be out of the thread for 12 hours as I was sleeping. So you ask me a question after i have said that and use my lack of response that you were aware of as I said I was sleeping so now there is no motivation for jingles play? you have said that there was scum motivation for jingles play for the past 2 days and now there is no motivation? You realise that was my issue with the jingle case right? 1. if not for you baiting me. I would NEVER have said anything in order to 'save zork' 2. I did not see zorks claim. I was simply fulfilling my promise to stop a no lynch. 3. I know I am town. So if as town I am put into a situation where I was clearly trapped. Then I am obviously going to come after that person. addendum: So now that I know what you are up to I will say this. TOWN: when I flip green can you please do something about this guy. I don't mind dying as long as it helps us win the game. | ||
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On August 06 2012 07:40 Obvious.660 wrote: @Darth I'm with you on this particular thing. Seems like a lot of work to go through for scum to get one mislynch so I'm not ready to call Ange scummy. You're partially at fault for perpetuating the argument, but I see your defense is transparent and ringing true, so I'm calling it two misguided townies aimed at each other. I suggest you both drop this for now, because it's been going nowhere for at least 12 hours, and start looking elsewhere. @Ange you'll have to make a better case than that to convince me that anyone is more scummy than Jingle. I would drop it but I have clearly explained the above points and people continue to bring them up against me. Should I not correct them? | ||
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Take this HYPOTHETICAL situation: Obvious, GoodKarma and aRyuujin make it to endgame. Obvious is town, Goodkarma is scum, aRyujjin is town. If you take that situation aRyuujin is a CLEAR liability. Take another: Myself, Ange777 and aRyuujin make it to endgame. I am town, ange777 is Town and aRyuujin is scum If you take that situation aRyuujin is a clear liability also. Add to that these points: Every single opinion he has had has been on someone on which a bandwagon has formed. Every single piece of analysis of his has been blatantly plagiarised off other players. He has never taken an unpopular stance. He has voted for Golbat on his bandwagon. Missed a vote. Voted for Mordanis when he was the most popular choice and his reasoning was almost the exact same as mine from a few posts earlier. Voted for Zork at the last minute. Now is jumping on the jinglehell/darthpunk bandwagon Martyrs himself slightly and disappears again. With all that being said I find it equally likely him to just be a bad town as a scum (oh no I am 'soft defending' him) but at this point he is a CLEAR liability right now, and will become an even larger liability as the game progresses. UNLESS his posting and analysis improve dramatically. @ aRyujjin On August 05 2012 17:26 Obvious.660 wrote: Your current play is 100% against the town win condition. | ||
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On August 06 2012 08:45 aRyuujin wrote: ... If by your last post you mean this? + Show Spoiler + On August 05 2012 19:14 Obvious.660 wrote: Something more like this? I honestly don't know what to tell you. Your read on me is that I'm scum faking as a bad town who turned into a bad scum while still having this genius bad town fake. This seems like a logical read /sarcasm. People LYNCH bad townies (you yourself said something to that extant.) When I saw that post, I thought you were just joking, I didn't realize that was your actual analysis. Now at DP: + Show Spoiler + On August 06 2012 08:27 DarthPunk wrote: If I had to make a scum read right now. It would probably be on Aryuujin. I am far from confident in my ability to make reads but the logic behind an aRyuujin lynch is this. Take this HYPOTHETICAL situation: Obvious, GoodKarma and aRyuujin make it to endgame. Obvious is town, Goodkarma is scum, aRyujjin is town. If you take that situation aRyuujin is a CLEAR liability. Take another: Myself, Ange777 and aRyuujin make it to endgame. I am town, ange777 is Town and aRyuujin is scum If you take that situation aRyuujin is a clear liability also. Add to that these points: Every single opinion he has had has been on someone on which a bandwagon has formed. Every single piece of analysis of his has been blatantly plagiarised off other players. He has never taken an unpopular stance. He has voted for Golbat on his bandwagon. Missed a vote. Voted for Mordanis when he was the most popular choice and his reasoning was almost the exact same as mine from a few posts earlier. Voted for Zork at the last minute. Now is jumping on the jinglehell/darthpunk bandwagon Martyrs himself slightly and disappears again. With all that being said I find it equally likely him to just be a bad town as a scum (oh no I am 'soft defending' him) but at this point he is a CLEAR liability right now, and will become an even larger liability as the game progresses. UNLESS his posting and analysis improve dramatically. @ aRyujjin You're saying that I jumped on the Jingle/DP bandwagon? Look at the thread. I'm pretty sure I was the first to point at that BOTH of you are scum working together. Actually, I think I'm also the first to really say you're scum. Another thing to note is your usage of these heavily negative connoted words, like 'blatantly plagiarized'. You're bringing up Obvious' HOLY FUCK YOU NEED TO GET LYNCHED big red signpost. You're starting to get emotional, defensive, and are now striking back at your accusers. Another sign of scum. You're continuing to follow the pattern of behavior that Ange set out, even ignoring Jingle to make me your number 1 target. Sorry, DP, but you're digging yourself deeper and deeper into your hole. @Ange: As I said earlier, I'm certain that it's Jingle/DP as remaining scum. However, I think its important to lynch Jingle first, as that's what Shady wants us to do, and he's our biggest townie right now. I'll vote Darthpunk if town decides that we're going with him, but as of now I plan to vote Jingle today and DP tomorrow. Ah I am far from emotional. In fact I would say that you are being emotional and are lashing back at your accusers. | ||
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THIS: On August 06 2012 08:58 aRyuujin wrote: Something else I'd like to note is that throughout the game, my main supporters have been Keirathi (mason who was NKd) and Promethelax (townie who was lynched the day I missed). Why would scum me NK Keirathi? Seems kind of dumb if you ask me. Especially when noone but Shady knew he was mason, and he wasn't scumhunting very heavily. Now, let's pretend for a minute that I'm scum following the plan that Obvious laid out for me. Why would I sit back and let Promethelax get lynched? as a supporter of mine, it would make a lot more sense to keep him alive. Is pure WIFOM, ally of scum who cannot reasonably argue against their accusers. I think you will notice though that I clearly stated you could be just a bad townie and that with an increase in posting and analysis I would change my mind on you. Your response seems to be far more of a chainsaw defense than actually bringing anything to the table in terms of cases. I welcome you to put forward a case on me if you believe me to be red but what you are posting right now On August 06 2012 08:58 aRyuujin wrote: In my eyes, you're just driving yourself deeper into red territory now. Is not a case. not something I can defend with arguments at all. You are throwing suspicion on me without facts or evidence. You have a feeling. not something I can very easily defend myself against is it? or is that the point? | ||
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On August 06 2012 13:43 aRyuujin wrote: This line of reasoning is going to seem a bit silly, but I think it's just piling onto the evidence DP has left us. + Show Spoiler + happened at 3:05, after which DP immediately posts voting for Zork, (looks like he started writing that post before zork pulled the whole claim thing). DP posts again 4 minutes after Zork's claim. I think it's quite possible for them to have decided on the mafia qt, "k, bros, imma pull this stunt so u can accuse me," Zork claims, and immediately DP responds, helping him cover for the fact that he was SUCH a late switcher. Thought this has been brought up by Mordanis and Ange, it's pretty much disregarded because it's so situational. (It pretty much gets forgotten) The thing that makes this move from 100% WIFOM to kind of useful imo is this post: + Show Spoiler + Here, he defends himself from the accusations of Ange and Mord by saying it was late. However, he doesn't talk about ANY other part of those cases. Instead, he just brings up irl problems why he couldn't. The biggest thing here is that he says he was up an extra hour. Why the hell did that happen? When I saw that post, I was like k, wtf is he doing, and voted him and moved on. Especially considering he says it was incredibly late in the morning, (and that during this hour all he did was make two tiny posts at the very end) it sounds to me like he's just trying to paint himself as a mislead townie brought to his senses by Zork's move. Yes, this is weak. However, it is just icing on the proverbial cake. This is nothing. I have also already responded to this several times in what I believe to be a satisfactory way. It is interesting that there is so little to go off that half a page of your 'case' on me is so impotent. It is also interesting that once again you are bringing nothing to the thread or the case on me that is new or original. Just once again repeating allegations that others have stated and I have cleared up. About staying up an hour later. I was interested in the medic claim and I was finishing watching heros game in ASUS ROG whilst I was in bed. I did fully intend on going to bed however I changed my mind (oh my god how scummy wtf?) I was posting my Vote switch at the time and did not see the zork claim. Just from reading my next post this should be clear as I immediately address it. I switched to prevent a no lynch. nothing more, nothing less. I said I would do this at the very beginning and I stuck to it. I don't know why this seems to be so difficult to understand but that is what happened. As you say this allegation is piss weak. and I don;t know how many times people like yourself will bring it up when I have already addressed it. If you are going to make a case. Might I suggest instead of repeating others ad nauseum you actually contribute some original thought. or anything. at all. In no way does this constitute any part of a case. Just saying it is suspicious does not mean anything. Moving on. On August 06 2012 13:43 aRyuujin wrote: [/b]Something that I don't think has been brought up in this context is this post: + Show Spoiler + Once more, though it's not an IRONCLAD HARDCORE damning post, it's something that seems very... interesting. Essentially, Ange begins to link Zorkmid and JingleHell. Darthpunk strikes that down without providing much real evidence, and begins accusing Ange. Why? Because he/she is making these connections. DP even says something to that degree, at I initially had a small town read on you but after actually reading through the discussion between yourself and jingle I am starting to worry about you. Your reaction to jingle's pressure was an incredibly disproportionate response, and trying to draw a connection to a case you posted hours after jingle had first cast suspicion on you is very suspicious to me. I don't see any connections whatsoever between Jingles pressure on you and your case on zork. I have no idea why you would try and draw a connection that wasn't there. . If you reread this section of the post, it's quite obviously leaning towards a scumDarthpunk trying to protect his scum buddies. He even goes on to make this post (talking to Ange) You seem to have been desperate to link jingle hell to your zorkmid case even though his case on you began hours earlier. You asked me several times to state why I felt the Zork case was weaker, and are now using all those answers you dug for yesterday in order to build a case that isn't there. It seems as if you 100% KNEW that zork would flip red. And then desperately tried to manufacture connections to him wherever you could. I can 100% see a scum motivation for this you bussed zork and not only gained 'confirmed town' status but have also set up 2 mislynches. , further showing his determination to bust that link. So you are saying that I need to provide evidence in order to prove something isn't there? Really? Ange needed to provide evidence something was there. Something other than Jingle is accusing me whilst I accuse someone else. That is not a link. Jingle started against Ange HOURS before that. and at that time this was her entire argument. So not providing evidence for a link existing is townie. But me asking for evidence for a link existing is? Right. On August 06 2012 13:43 aRyuujin wrote: And finally, as I mentioned earlier, if you look at the last page of his filter, he progressively gets more and more emotional and lashes out at the people who accuse him. Like I noted when discussing Jingle, this seems to be a fairly scum move. So the only case you have that is new or not retarded is that you perceive emotion in a text base game which is incredibly difficult to both convey and perceive emotion through. I don't know how to respond to your perceptions of emotion that isn't there. but next time you write a wall of text 'case' against me could you please include a case? If anyone sees something important could someone please convey it to me. Concisely if possible lol. | ||
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That being said. I will continue to post cases and defend myself but I am sheeping shadys vote no matter what this cycle. If shady votes for me I will vote for myself etc. The reason for this is that the situation is bad at the moment. a mess really. I will sheep the vote of the confirmed town. Whilst still contributing as much as possible. If I had to vote for someone right now it would be aRyuujin he had less than a pages worth of filter but has LEAPT into action now more than one person is considering voting for him. I mean read his filter. the contrast is obvious. | ||
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On August 06 2012 14:26 aRyuujin wrote: @Shady: Why not kill the guaranteed scum now? unless you're of the opinion that me/Jingle or alan/jingle(which I think we basically ruled out) is more likely than DP/alan, then it's objectively better not to risk that 1% that we end up mislynching Jingle. Also, in case the mods don't see my vote tangled up in the huge post I made up above, I voted DP: ##unvote and ##vote Darthpunk And Shady, if the consensus is still that we need to lynch Jingle first, rest assured that I will vote Jingle over a mislynch. I just believe that it's in our best interests to hit DP first. Of course it is in your best interest to lynch me first. I am under suspicion and am accusing you. You said not that long ago that Jingle was the best to lynch first. The thing that has changed? I cast suspicion onto you. That's it. Can you be any more transparent? LOL I am 100% sure if GK had voted mordanis that you would be all over her like a bad salesman. Yet you sheeped my case on mord and are 100% innocent? LMAO | ||
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On August 06 2012 15:36 aRyuujin wrote: [/b]+ Show Spoiler + On August 06 2012 15:26 DarthPunk wrote: @ aRyuujins ROFLCASE This is nothing. I have also already responded to this several times in what I believe to be a satisfactory way. It is interesting that there is so little to go off that half a page of your 'case' on me is so impotent. It is also interesting that once again you are bringing nothing to the thread or the case on me that is new or original. Just once again repeating allegations that others have stated and I have cleared up. About staying up an hour later. I was interested in the medic claim and I was finishing watching heros game in ASUS ROG whilst I was in bed. I did fully intend on going to bed however I changed my mind (oh my god how scummy wtf?) I was posting my Vote switch at the time and did not see the zork claim. Just from reading my next post this should be clear as I immediately address it. I switched to prevent a no lynch. nothing more, nothing less. I said I would do this at the very beginning and I stuck to it. I don't know why this seems to be so difficult to understand but that is what happened. As you say this allegation is piss weak. and I don;t know how many times people like yourself will bring it up when I have already addressed it. If you are going to make a case. Might I suggest instead of repeating others ad nauseum you actually contribute some original thought. or anything. at all. In no way does this constitute any part of a case. Just saying it is suspicious does not mean anything. Moving on. So you are saying that I need to provide evidence in order to prove something isn't there? Really? Ange needed to provide evidence something was there. Something other than Jingle is accusing me whilst I accuse someone else. That is not a link. Jingle started against Ange HOURS before that. and at that time this was her entire argument. So not providing evidence for a link existing is townie. But me asking for evidence for a link existing is? Right. So the only case you have that is new or not retarded is that you perceive emotion in a text base game which is incredibly difficult to both convey and perceive emotion through. I don't know how to respond to your perceptions of emotion that isn't there. but next time you write a wall of text 'case' against me could you please include a case? If anyone sees something important could someone please convey it to me. Concisely if possible lol. You did exactly what I said you'd do in the first paragraph... Come on, man. I expected better than this! Anyway, DP, why don't you provide us with your own opinions? So you post a bad case. Point out it is bad. and then say that if I am scum I will make a point of saying how bad it is? I addressed every part of your case. there is no case. Was there anything I didn't address? I always provide my opinions. read my filter. What does that post add to anything except attempt to leave the impression I missed something. I did not. If anyone other than aRyuujin thinks I have missed something feel free to let me know and I will address it. | ||
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On August 06 2012 15:44 aRyuujin wrote: Why don't you address my conclusion rather than getting all worked up? I am not getting worked up. quite frankly I am bored with having to respond to the same things countless times. I did not respond to your conclusion because it was this After looking at DP, I'm like 100% sure that he's scum. I responded to each of the points in your case. yet you have ignored them. and then say you expected better acting as if I had not. If anyone else reads this please look at my answers to his case, and his complete disregard for them in his desperation to form a bandwagon on me. | ||
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On August 06 2012 15:55 aRyuujin wrote: So basically you don't want any responsibility for your vote? It's been said, time and time again, the strongest weapon of a town is their vote. Abandoning your vote is NEVER a pro town move. Now, let's see what he actually says in this post. He has a town read on Jingle. Why? Because DP says DP is town, and anyone who says DP is town cannot ever accuse someone correctly. Seems legit. Now, let's see, why would DP actually say Jingle is town? Maybe... it's because DP ALREADY KNOWS that Jingle is town. Darthpunk is furthering his ploy to have Jingle's green flip make him look clean. Shady, come on man. At this point, lynching Darthpunk needs to be priority #1. I said I would post cases and defend myself. and contribute to the thread. And then I stated who I would vote for. In that very post. Others have stated they would follow shady. Including yourself. It is for the towns benefit. Yet it is only a problem when i do it. First I am scum for defending scum jingle. Now I am scum for thinking he is town. I assume I would be scum if I sheeped the case on jingle. I have well reasoned transparent motivations behind my actions. So do you. A healthy case of confirmation bias and a desperation to lynch the only suspicious player of those who have accused you. Honestly I don't think I could do anything right now without there being something scummy behind it. | ||
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On August 06 2012 16:00 goodkarma wrote: If someone could summarize a specific case point that shows Darthpunk's guilt that I haven't discussed here please let me know. I wanted to give Darthpunk a chance to defend himself, as I feel his defense is just as important as what was said in the case against him to get a good read of the situation. But after his defense, I don't feel the evidence is there to say he's a sure scum, especially compared to Jingle. Jingle has been spending his posting time calling us tunneling sheep, which is hardly a compelling arguement -_- I understand the need for town to stay united, and will coincide my vote with Shady's to secure the lynch for Darth IF IT COMES TO THAT, but I honestly hope it doesn't. I feel we're getting ahead of ourselves. Almost everyone is in agreement that Jingle is scum, so why are we now voting Darth? If there's some compelling arguement for lynching him I've overlooked, please enlighten me. The case against me comes from 2 people, both of whom I have cast suspicion on and jingle for having a town read on him. The main argument is my post timing which I believe I have explained. To be honest what little case there was has been answered, but aRyuujin seems to be tunnelling me along with a healthy case of confirmation bias. aRyuujin actually wanted to vote jingle first. That all changed of course as soon as I posted that he was my top scum read. The whole thing is pretty transparent to me to be honest. | ||
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On August 06 2012 16:24 Ange777 wrote: Good morning. Just finished catching up. Once again I would like to bring something to your attention. When we were all set on lynching Jingle, everyone was agreeing (besides DarthPunk). It was such an easy vote. Anything wrong with easy votes? Well, day 1 and day 2 votes were easy. What did we get? Town. Oh yeah, day 3 was really difficult. What did we get? Scum! Although some may brush this off as WIFOM (because scum clearly could bus their own member etc), this is one more reason for me to prefer a DarthPunk lynch than a Jingle lynch. aRyuujin made an awesome case and I agree with him that there might be a tiny chance that Jingle is not scum but DarthPunk IS SCUM and therefore has to be lynched today! So you just Ignore my defense as if nothing happened? say that aRyuujin made an awesome case (which is patently false) and then proceed to tell us all I must be lynched? without adding anything to your case. without acknowledging my defense. Either you became massively overconfident with the zork lynch or you are scum. Your case against me is weak as shit. I have more than defended my self. but you just IGNORE EVERYTHING add some WIFOM for good measure and carry on with the bandwagon? | ||
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On August 06 2012 16:42 Obvious.660 wrote: Okay so I went through DarthPunk's filter and rediscovered our little disagreement from earlier in the game. Originally I dismissed it as him misunderstanding the intent of my post. In its original form: + Show Spoiler [The original] + On July 30 2012 18:57 Obvious.660 wrote: Of the remaining people, outside of myself and Promethelax, we have alan133 and DarthPunk who did not vote for Golbat. Since I have already gone back and forth with Promethelax and found his reasons for voting for Shady Sands similar to but above and beyond my own, there are two players remaining to look at. First I'll take a look at alan133's posts: Some behavior analysis: consistent in his methods for determining his best scum target. His vote on Shady Sands was not willy-nilly, and he considered the cases against Golbat and Mordanis as well before casting his vote. Solid play on this end, in my opinion, at least throughout D1. At this point there were 5 votes for Golbat. Two possibilities for this rather well timed post: Town alan133 wants to make sure we don't get into a no-lynch scenario, as that gives us little to work with for actual information that can be 100% confirmed (a flip) or Scum alan133 is setting himself up to ensure a mislynch won't end up looking bad on him if he has to put his vote in as the one of the last people on the Golbat vote list. Of these two scenarios, I'm more easily convinced that alan133 is acting in the best interests of the town. I did want to mention this though if any suspicions arise regarding his votes or actions in the future. I have a question for alan133: How did you make sense of goodkarma's post regarding Keirathi? I'm not really able to pinpoint exactly where that case even is, so you'll need to point it out for me, please. DarthPunk's filter: So the first thing I notice after processing the first half of my post here is that DarthPunk and alan133 both ended up posting around the time where Golbat was at 5 votes. DarthPunk also explained that he would be willing to change his vote from Mordanis to Golbat to avoid a mislynch with his post 40 minutes later. Sounds appropriate given the situation, from a town perspective. But again, we're at the two scenarios as above where we're either seeing avoiding looking bad for the mislynch, or staying around to ensure there is a lynch. It seems his main reason for staying on Mordanis is motivated by finding Mordanis' play as confusing to the town as well as not being convinced about his own case(s). So are they connected somehow? Outside of their willingness to switch votes, here's all I can see:
I don't see any obvious connections here. The only things they had in common so far really was they didn't vote for Golbat, and both were willing to change votes. This tells me nothing of either of them individually but leads me to believe that they are not necessarily of the same alignment. The part that Darth took issue with was that I said he would switch to Golbat to secure the lynch. So why would I say something like that? Reality: I was merely stating that at the time of his post, the most likely candidate for lynch based on the attitude of the town was Golbat who was in first place with 5 votes. In second place was Shady Sands with 3 votes, not exactly a contender for a guaranteed lynch. Easier to use the word Golbat because it actually mirrors reality. He makes it sound like I accused him of a blatant scum slip. Initially I didn't see why Darth would want to correct me, but I finally get it. Darth's Overreaction: Obvious claims I stated I would vote to lynch Golbat. Better correct him so they don't think I said something very clearly scummy when nobody was looking. If Darth had never brought this up and tried to correct me, it would have flown under my radar. I had already dismissed my post as crap and forgotten about it. Thinking about it now, it seems more likely that Darth was too forward thinking in his response to it. Forward thinking. That seems to have come up in a conversation with him, too:+ Show Spoiler [Getting Ahead] + On August 05 2012 19:24 DarthPunk wrote: What? you had suspicions that that is where I was going before I even accused you? Is this because it is the one thing you are afraid of people thinking? On August 05 2012 19:29 DarthPunk wrote: EPWOP: They were far ahead. Zork was inactive and not contributing, had suspicions raised against him several times. It would be a smart play to trade the most obvious member of their scum team for lots of town credit and 2 further mislynches (which you have prepared beforehand.) That is getting further ahead. That is winning the game. I got a laugh from this. I just spent a few min trying to find out how it happened, innocent error that looks really fishy if you don't see where it came from: The inner quote is actually from Ange. Solved the mystery. Imagine if this was Darth actually saying he's concerned Zork will flip scum. Edit before having to double post: It appears we lit a fire under this one... Honestly I'm too tired to go further with this. I see a few votes already heading in this direction. Darth has a town read on Jingle. I don't really see a reason to disagree with GK's summary. I'm trying to figure out how he can know Jingle is town without the use of WIFOM. ##VOTE DarthPunk If you look through my filter I stated quite clearly my problem was that you took your assumption and clearly presented it as my statement. that is all. The Quote of Ange was just her position reversed. I thought zork MAY be scum but I was SURE mordanis was. I have already addressed why I have a town read on jingle. Is there anything else? i fail to see a blatant revelation that explains your position. seems like a weak case to go with the other weak cases to join an increasingly easy bandwagon | ||
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On August 06 2012 16:44 Ange777 wrote: @goodkarma: What you quoted is not my entire case. It is the behaviour which made him scummy but the reason why I want to vote him is the scum motivation behind it. Even if you give DarthPunk the benefit of doubt that he really did believe Zork was a lurker I really don't see why he would put Zork and aRyuujin in one category. To me, aRyuujin seems like a bored town who can't bother himself to post more active. His most recent activity fits that perfectly. Which is why I will not vote for aRyuujin. Scum doesn't always show themselves with some damning piece of evidence. (And even if they do as in Zork's slip not everyone accepts it ... ) You have to instead think about why someone would do this or that and whether it is scum motivated or if there is a town motivation for it. Therefore I'd like you to weigh once more whether you really think that there might be a town motivation for DarthPunk's behaviour or whether a scum DarthPunk would make so much more sense. So you actually have ignored my defense on all those points. and added nothing to the case against me. OK I think it would be obvious why if we lynched someone based on them lurking it would be aRyuujin. he had half a page filter and had missed a vote. yet you had a town read from him? Please add something to the case that has not been answered other than 'I believe him to be scum therefore he is scum' I never said you were my top scum read. I thought it was possible. and if you note the context. I was specifically assked by YOU to provide a scum read other than yourself. which I then did. You are ONCE AGAIN using information YOU ASKED FOR as some sort of proof I am scum. Seriously? | ||
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On August 06 2012 17:03 Ange777 wrote: I did not make this case because you were away which I had seen. Stop making up bad excuses to discredit me. Jingle has played so badly that I fail to see any kind of town motivation. There are two options: He really just IS that bad or he must be scum. You on the other hand have played clearly with scum motivation. Therefore naturally I prefer to lynch you. If that was your issue with the case on Jingle than congrats, I am agreeing with you on this point. For the last time, I did not bait you. What is wrong with asking someone for the reasons why they don't want to vote for a case? And why would you obviously come after me? Town should not be afraid of dying because they are town, not scum. You don't need to be afraid if one person comes after you instead you should continue to hunt scum. That is a town indicator. So what did you do? You first came after me when I accused you, than after aRyuujin accused you you switched to him. You are indeed flailing around and throwing mud at all your accusers. Scum. aRyuujinb accused me first FYI. you did bait me. [b]If you had not asked why the case was weaker there would be no 'soft defense'[b] It's ironic that you say I am throwing mud at my accusers, as both of you suddenly changed your opinion on lynching jingle as soon as I threw suspicion upon you. Please refrain from basing your case on a feeling. Saying I am throwing mud around etc. without actually adding anything to the case which I have not already responded to or cannot respond to. Feelings, baseless accusations etc. | ||
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On August 06 2012 17:06 Ange777 wrote: You are getting sulky. The easy bandwagon would have been Jingle. When we had the consensus to lynch him, there was no posting at all from town for the entire first half of day 3. This is what I am talking about. I am getting sulky?? what does that add to the case. you are posting ad nauseum whilst adding nothing to the case that I have not addressed, even though you Implied you would. | ||
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a.) I cast doubt on your position as town 'leader' and your scum buddy aRyuujin. b.) you are using your 'town cred' in order to make the more diffcult mislynch first. and then you can easily mislynch an easier target tomorrow at MYLO c.) You are either scum or incredibly over confident and arrogant. you make a weak case. add nothing to it but he is scum he must be lynched and then assume town will follow you without question. | ||
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On August 06 2012 16:59 aRyuujin wrote: Also @ Obvious: I spent about 2 minutes trying to figure that mystery out myself, as well, finally gave up lol. And Obvious references a good point: I have already explained this. Is it so difficult to find anything on me that you must constantly rehash old points that have been addressed ad nauseum? | ||
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On August 06 2012 17:33 aRyuujin wrote: EBWOP: Sorry, should've refreshed the main thread. Didn't see all of DP's posts you just made 5 crappy posts in a row, accusing your accusers. Why? Because they accused you. Sounds like flailing to me. Your "argument" against the whole "Jingle = ez lynch" literally makes no sense. He's not there to defend himself? Wait a minute. Earlier, you said that Ange attacks people who aren't there to defend themselves BECAUSE they're not there (using yourself as an example). And in those 5 posts, you still haven't done anything constructive except provide absurd arguments. Because you seem to like traditional argumentation, you can say this post is basically 50% Reductio ad absurdum. How are they absurd arguments? everything that has been brought up has been answered. I am frustrated that you and ange seem to be determined to not read the thread or my filter. and I am having to refer you countless times to posts that are easily found in my filter. They are not absurd arguments. neither of you have actually raised any further evidence other than that which I have completely defend myself against and now just seem heel bent in discrediting me, either through trying to discredit my arguments without providing a reason. or through trying to state I am emotional or sulky. Every case against me has been answered. You have not brought about further cases but are simply trying to discredit me or paint me scum with things that are not relevant. Feelings, Opinions etc. Not facts. Not evidence. Not a case. If you feel like my previous posts were non-productive you are correct because I am wasting time by addressing arguments that aren't arguments at all. Like the above. | ||
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As far as I can tell I have addressed every case or referred you to read my filter because it is addressed therein. I am going to have to leave the thread for a bit shortly. I am sure there will be alot of posts when I get back which state I am scum whilst providing no evidence. so I have something to look forward too @everyone else isn't the difference in posting from aRyuujin absolutely INCREDIBLE? | ||
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regarding off topicness. I think both you and ange are being incredibly rude to me. I am guessing it is a case of perspective | ||
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On August 06 2012 18:07 aRyuujin wrote: [/b]I'd like to note that I've looked through his filter several times. He hasn't addressed + Show Spoiler + On August 06 2012 17:27 aRyuujin wrote: Actually, posting ad nauseum would mean that nobody wants to discuss anymore. Clearly, that's not the case. Now, what I'm interested in is why you haven't answered the ~6 questions I posed you, or even referenced that post. It's actually quite possible that you missed it entirely, seeing as it was the last post on the page before this. However, if you were town, you'd actually be answering them by yourself. And like Ange said, the only scum motivation in accusing you would be to block Jingle's lynch, seeing as his bandwagon had already basically been set to go. (note that this would require 4 mafia in this game) However, as town players, our job is actually not to lynch town and sow confusion while saving ourselves. Instead, we need to hunt out the scum. Honestly, you're not providing us with anything remotely town motivated to go off of for ages. And is your reasoning for having a town read on Jingle still that you understand what its like to have a bandwagon? or + Show Spoiler + On August 06 2012 16:56 aRyuujin wrote: Hey GK! Glad to see you're here. The thing about Darkpunk is that rather than it being one big thing confirming that he's scum (like how Zorkmid dropped that bomb), DP's red status' confirmation is made up of many small tells. Over time, DP has had lots of these small tells, that if we add together, pretty much confirm that he's a scum. One is his defense of Zork. Contrary to popular belief, rather than just stating that Zork is a lurker, DP tried to find town motives to explain away Zork's slips. At some points, (I think where it simply became too difficult because of all the mistakes Zork was making), DP was just like fuck it, he's a bad townie, but..... let's lynch Mordanis! And when people realized how obviously scummy Zork was, THAT was the point when DP was like nope Zork = lurker. Then he made his supposed "instigating attack" that apparently led to me OMGUSing him. Control F for Zork here, it's quite telling. The other thing I really want to point out is that rather than advancing town's position, after being accused, DP has pretty much curled into a ball. He didn't even properly address my analysis (no I don't think it's a case), instead doing exactly what I said he would do: Ignoring my conclusions and instead trying to discredit it by taking small parts and acting absurdly. And it seems that I was ninja'd by Ange, but the thing we need to look for is motives. Not necessarily the actions themselves, but the motives. Why does DP behave the way he does is the question that we need to ask ourselves. and @ Darthpunk If you want us to take you for a townie, you're going to have to act like a townie. All you've really posted is that you feel for Jingle for getting accused and that you're mad at me/i'm an idiot/i'm scum/there's something very funny for accusing you. What do you think about Alan? Who's the other scum besides myself? Why is it that when I address you, you ignore what I'm saying, and then say that I'm the one ignoring what you're saying? What's the REAL reason why you think Jingle is town? And why are you going to brush this post off with plenty of LOL, ROFL. and LMAO? Something else I dug up: + Show Spoiler + On August 03 2012 17:29 DarthPunk wrote: Can I just clarify before you leave why you are voting for Zork if Aryuujin is your top scum read. also. SEE waiting around for shady sands to see who to vote for is ridiculous. I am SO GLAD you are going back on that. Here, we have a discussion where DP is . Word for word, DP says that his(DP's) current behavior is "ridiculous" This is somewhat offtopic, so I'll keep it in a spoiler, but it's directed at DP + Show Spoiler + On August 06 2012 16:40 DarthPunk wrote: EBWOP: you also flat out ignore goodkarmas request. have some respect. Hey man, cool down. You're the only person who's been accused of breaking this: However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. , (In my eyes) you've behaved quite rudely after being accused. Hopefully (and chances are), I'm just getting annoyed because of something stupid, and everyone disagrees with me, but still. Relax and chill Talk a lot while saying little. This seems to be Darthpunk's main form of defense. Ok I fail to see something I have not responded to in those posts. care to summarise concisely the questions i have not answered? dot points preferable. | ||
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On August 06 2012 18:29 aRyuujin wrote: Please read the thread, instead of ignoring it and complaining :D -What do you think about Alan? -Are Ange and I the scum? -Why are we better reads than Jingle, etc.? -Why did you post 5x in a row without any content? -Do you have a reason besides "I understand what it's like to be accused" for having a town read on Jingle? -What's your opinion of the passage where you described sheeping Shady as ridiculous? -Address the 'Jingle is easier than you' discussion -Why haven't you moved town forward in your last ~30 posts? -What do you think about Alan? My position on alan is dependent on the flips of others. He may be scum but at this point everything is so intertwined that I am unsure completely If You and Ange are not scum I think Alan and/or a whole host of others are sitting back laughing whilst watching townies kill each other. he is along with others potentially scum. we have 1 confirmed town. That is SHADY. -Are Ange and I the scum? I think you could very likely be a scum team. yes. -Why are we better reads than Jingle, etc.? Because of the way that you have both aggresively tunneled me whilst ignoring my defense and by doing so with rather weak cases. Ange777 has laid traps for myself and jingle etc. Your posting has become very different since being accused and you have only really posted when pursuing my mislynch. there are a plurality of additional reasons in my filter which I have already addressed. -Why did you post 5x in a row without any content? This is not a question this is a leading question. i.e. you make a statement and pose it as a question. The answer is however, that I was posting in response to things as I read through the thread. It is easier for me to process information that way it seems. As to why they had no content. They were addressing posts attacking me, this was their content. If they seemed as if they lacked content, this is probably due to the accusations they were addressing lacking content or you being unable or unwilling to see their content. -Do you have a reason besides "I understand what it's like to be accused" for having a town read on Jingle? That is not the reason. I have very clearly stated the reason I have a town read on jingle. Jingle has been the victim of similar traps that have been attempted on me. If scum ange layed those traps on myself and jingle my reasoning is that both Jingle and I have to be town. -What's your opinion of the passage where you described sheeping Shady as ridiculous? At that point in time I thought it was ridiculous to sheep shady. There were two clear candidates both had cases on them. It was the best play at that time to not wait for (an at that point largely AFK) shady to make a choice and then all sheep him. Many people (including yourself) had not yet been active and it would have been far too easy for scum to hide their votes behind this shady vote. The net knowledge gained would have been less with everyone bandwagoning one candidate. One of the main reasons argued in favour of sheeping shady was that it would prevent a no lynch, which people were certain was going to occur. I knew this would never occur. I was always going to switch my vote to avoid the no lynch. As I have said previously I thought zork MAY be scum but I was CERTAIN mordanis was. Exactly the position of ange with the candidates reversed. I was wrong she was right. It seems as if this is mainly what I am guilty of. All sheeping would have drastically reduced knowledge and discussion going forth, which would have been anti town. At this point the situation is drastically different and thus like many others have stated they would put their vote with the confirmed town. It seems you only have a problem with it if I do it. -Address the 'Jingle is easier than you' discussion Again? Jingle is almost AFK and a far easier lynch. If you mislynch him and then try to mislynch me it is far more difficult for you then the other way around. Because your townie cred would have reduced following his mislynch. If you blow all your townie cred mislynching me Jingle would still be far easier to get a lynch on considering his current posting. -Why haven't you moved town forward in your last ~30 posts? Why haven't you?....... I am under constant attack. I have explained myself endlessly and yet I still recieve attacks that are just rehashed cases I have already addressed. Also the longer this goes. The bigger the hole you both dig for yourself when I flip green. You may say that me dragging this out is my way of catching the scum. | ||
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On August 06 2012 18:32 aRyuujin wrote: Also another one: Why is obvious agreeing with us? Seeing as your main point about me and Ange being mafia because we accuse you, where does that leave him? You convinced someone? Isn't that the idea? he originally believed my defense against you. and although the case and thus the defense have not changed, your relentless repetition that I am scum must have swayed him. | ||
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##VOTE: Jinglehell | ||
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On August 06 2012 20:54 aRyuujin wrote: If you think I'm scum, vote with your opinions. Don't just blindly donate your vote to Shady, it only helps you slip out of any tight situations you get into as a scum. Why would town DP vote for Jingle, who he believes is town, over me and Ange, who DP is apparently super sure are scum? This sheeping is just an attempt to not have to take responsibility for his vote. Well obviously there are only two candidates at this point so there is some self-preservation involved. | ||
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On August 06 2012 22:27 Ange777 wrote: @Jingle: I am wearing those hypothetical 1% town Jingle goggles, that's why I am asking you for your reads ... stop complaining about what happened and build a case if you want me to give you a chance. So you are totally against voting for him when he is 99% scum? | ||
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On August 06 2012 22:19 JingleHell wrote: Oh, now you want to hear opinions? I love this absurd dichotomy that's sprung up in your minds recently, where either I'm bad or I'm scum. Want to hear what happened? I replaced in late, never had a chance to get into stride and was put in an untenable position. Truly shocking that I've not bothered putting any effort into convincing people. Here's a suggestion. For five minutes, try to be objective. Put on "Hypothetical townie" goggles, and read my posts with all that I've just said in mind. See if it sounds like frustration. You don't have to believe I'm town to try that, just do it and see if it makes as much sense as some of the "cases" against me. I'm not going to spend a lot of time building a case when everyone will just dismiss it. They want you to post in order to pull off the lynch on me. | ||
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On August 06 2012 21:57 aRyuujin wrote: Why ask me questions if you are going to shit all over the answers with no thought? Seems like you don't really care what the answers are you are determined to lynch me and no amount of rational argument or reason will dissuade you from it. It almost seems as if you weren't asking in good faith, with an open mind. Nope at this point with confirmation bias running rampant, no matter how well reasoned or rational my defense. You will tunnel me until you get your lynch. A massive difference from your 1 page filter that consists the rest of the game. | ||
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On August 06 2012 22:33 Ange777 wrote: aRyuujin made another very good case against DarthPunk's defense here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=56#1112 If in doubt, go back and read it! Unfortunately I need to leave now but I'll be back 1-2 hours before deadline. Sigh. you only think it is a good case against my defense as you want to lynch me. Confirmation bias or scum. either way it was not a good 'case' against my defense. | ||
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On August 06 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote: Sigh. you only think it is a good case against my defense as you want to lynch me. Confirmation bias or scum. either way it was not a good 'case' against my defense. And by bad case I mean he deliberately ignores everything I say and puts a negative spin on it in a way that he doesn't really have to address anything I have said. You mention this is my first defense post? you have got to be kidding right? I am no longer interested in arguing with you. It is clear you are not interested in the truth but rather will post mountains of rubbish in order to further your agenda. One thing though. In your post you are very eager to point out that ange777 is confirmed town. I know what is happening here. If others don't I apologise that my defense was inadequate. HOWEVER. I encourage everyone to read through my filter. hopefully the truth will reveal itself. If I am mislynched. plz lynch Ange and aRyuujin. PLEASE! | ||
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ok, See ya guys. Hope I live but if I don't It was nice to play with you guys! <3 | ||
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On August 06 2012 20:09 DarthPunk wrote: -What do you think about Alan? My position on alan is dependent on the flips of others. He may be scum but at this point everything is so intertwined that I am unsure completely If You and Ange are not scum I think Alan and/or a whole host of others are sitting back laughing whilst watching townies kill each other. he is along with others potentially scum. we have 1 confirmed town. That is SHADY. -Are Ange and I the scum? I think you could very likely be a scum team. yes. -Why are we better reads than Jingle, etc.? Because of the way that you have both aggresively tunneled me whilst ignoring my defense and by doing so with rather weak cases. Ange777 has laid traps for myself and jingle etc. Your posting has become very different since being accused and you have only really posted when pursuing my mislynch. there are a plurality of additional reasons in my filter which I have already addressed. -Why did you post 5x in a row without any content? This is not a question this is a leading question. i.e. you make a statement and pose it as a question. The answer is however, that I was posting in response to things as I read through the thread. It is easier for me to process information that way it seems. As to why they had no content. They were addressing posts attacking me, this was their content. If they seemed as if they lacked content, this is probably due to the accusations they were addressing lacking content or you being unable or unwilling to see their content. -Do you have a reason besides "I understand what it's like to be accused" for having a town read on Jingle? That is not the reason. I have very clearly stated the reason I have a town read on jingle. Jingle has been the victim of similar traps that have been attempted on me. If scum ange layed those traps on myself and jingle my reasoning is that both Jingle and I have to be town. -What's your opinion of the passage where you described sheeping Shady as ridiculous? At that point in time I thought it was ridiculous to sheep shady. There were two clear candidates both had cases on them. It was the best play at that time to not wait for (an at that point largely AFK) shady to make a choice and then all sheep him. Many people (including yourself) had not yet been active and it would have been far too easy for scum to hide their votes behind this shady vote. The net knowledge gained would have been less with everyone bandwagoning one candidate. One of the main reasons argued in favour of sheeping shady was that it would prevent a no lynch, which people were certain was going to occur. I knew this would never occur. I was always going to switch my vote to avoid the no lynch. As I have said previously I thought zork MAY be scum but I was CERTAIN mordanis was. Exactly the position of ange with the candidates reversed. I was wrong she was right. It seems as if this is mainly what I am guilty of. All sheeping would have drastically reduced knowledge and discussion going forth, which would have been anti town. At this point the situation is drastically different and thus like many others have stated they would put their vote with the confirmed town. It seems you only have a problem with it if I do it. -Address the 'Jingle is easier than you' discussion Again? Jingle is almost AFK and a far easier lynch. If you mislynch him and then try to mislynch me it is far more difficult for you then the other way around. Because your townie cred would have reduced following his mislynch. If you blow all your townie cred mislynching me Jingle would still be far easier to get a lynch on considering his current posting. -Why haven't you moved town forward in your last ~30 posts? Why haven't you?....... I am under constant attack. I have explained myself endlessly and yet I still recieve attacks that are just rehashed cases I have already addressed. Also the longer this goes. The bigger the hole you both dig for yourself when I flip green. You may say that me dragging this out is my way of catching the scum. The post in which I explain why I think jingle is town is in here. I don't see why it is difficult for you to believe. anyway regardless of who flips green out of jingle and I. can someone please lynch the ange train. then we have this in the bag. | ||
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On August 07 2012 00:52 Shady Sands wrote: You say in your post above two things to justify your Jingle town read: 1) Jingle is AFK and an easy lynch 2) Jingle is the victim of similar traps that have been placed on you. Point 1 doesn't make sense. Point 2 is too general. What traps have been placed on Jingle AND you? Point to is the relevant point to this situation I think. Ange777 tried to lay a trap on jingle the first day Jingle called her on it and that was that was the beginning of their argument. Ange777 then tried to connect jingle and zork BEFORE ZORK FLIPPED RED due to jingle attacking ange777. even though this started hours before hand this was trap 2 At this same time. Ange kept trying to bait reasons why I thought her case was weaker than mine. She then turns this around and calls me out for soft defending zork. even though she initiated the discussion. Trap 1 She then several times today in this thread asked me leading questions and then immediately takes the answers SHE SOUGHT FOR and used them as EVIDENCE. trap trap trap. the same pattern between myself and jingle of setting up predictable responses to leading questions and then using the answers as EVIDENCE. jingle called her out on it immediately. I was stupid enough to fall for it. But if I am being trapped by ange777 and jingle is. then it stands to reason that we are both town. I am tired and it may not have come out well. but this is all in my filter. which is why I wanted people to read it before making claims that have been covered at length. | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:04 JingleHell wrote: Huge scum slip, for anyone who missed it: "regardless of who flips green out of jingle and I". He's been arguing that we're both town, so how does that statement make sense? One of us will be lynched. therefore one of us will flip green. Honestly. | ||
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On August 07 2012 00:57 aRyuujin wrote: It's not obvious to me. Why don't you spell it out for those of us who have 'retarded cases'? I still don't understand why scum me + ange would pull that play of the double mislynch. After one mislynch, wouldn't we be super suspicious? UGH WIFOM. doesn't mean shit. please avoid at all costs. | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:09 JingleHell wrote: No, in context it implies one of us wouldn't. And the one who's less likely, as I've already demonstrated, is you. Of course, all the people who claim to have liked my play in XXI should remember, this is what I did there, too. Spark controversy, discussion. Tunnel a bit. Watch and wait for slips. It was just harder to get into stride due to the way I replaced in. It doesn't always work, but when it does, it's pretty blatant. That is far from a blatant slip. If you have 2 greens and one flips. then which one has flipped green? whichever one of them flipped green. | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:15 JingleHell wrote: Misdirection. In context, it suggests that one of us would flip red. Of course, the one who will is you. It's also just one more shred of evidence, along with everything else that's piled up. It does nothing of the sort, you are creating something that isn't there. you are obviously desperate to avoid a lynch. so I can forgive you for manufacturing scumslips from thin air. and then stubbornly calling the actual meaning misdirection. | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:18 Shady Sands wrote: [/b]+ Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 01:04 DarthPunk wrote: Point to is the relevant point to this situation I think. Ange777 tried to lay a trap on jingle the first day Jingle called her on it and that was that was the beginning of their argument. Ange777 then tried to connect jingle and zork BEFORE ZORK FLIPPED RED due to jingle attacking ange777. even though this started hours before hand this was trap 2 At this same time. Ange kept trying to bait reasons why I thought her case was weaker than mine. She then turns this around and calls me out for soft defending zork. even though she initiated the discussion. Trap 1 She then several times today in this thread asked me leading questions and then immediately takes the answers SHE SOUGHT FOR and used them as EVIDENCE. trap trap trap. the same pattern between myself and jingle of setting up predictable responses to leading questions and then using the answers as EVIDENCE. jingle called her out on it immediately. I was stupid enough to fall for it. But if I am being trapped by ange777 and jingle is. then it stands to reason that we are both town. I am tired and it may not have come out well. but this is all in my filter. which is why I wanted people to read it before making claims that have been covered at length. Let me break this down for you: What was the trap? What did Jingle say to call her out? It is in his filter. . This is called reading a "Chainsaw defense", where when someone defends a scum by attacking their attacker is probably also scum themselves. [b]Yes normally but this so called chainsaw defense started HOURS BEFORE ANGE MADE HER CASE ON ZORK so either she believes jingle predicted ahead of time that she would post a case on zork or she drew a connection that wasn't there. Again, reading a chainsaw defense. not a chainsaw defense That's not trapping, that's good townie work. Answering questions shouldn't automatically exonerate you of guilt. If the questions generate the same answers regardless of if the person is scum or town.That is not good townie work that is Scum work. That's not called setting up a predictable response. That's more akin to approaching the situation with a hypothesis. Basically, after Ange's brave read and lynch on Zork, I'm almost 99% certain that he (she? not sure) is town. Fine, but if it was a bus. you will know that when I flip green and you can lynch ange777 and aRyuujin. | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:20 JingleHell wrote: I'm desperate? When I finally cave and stop being resigned to watching town self destruct and defend myself after literally everyone asks me to? You're the one who's becoming increasingly frantic. I know better than to try and alter your convictions when you have something stuck in your head. So i will leave it at I agree to disagree. | ||
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Ange777 may not be 100% scum she may just be over confident after the zork lynch. so as we only have 2 mislynches to play with don;t automatically revenge lynch her, despite what I have been saying. aRyuujin. seems scum to me. Or really OMGUS/ WIFOM/ tunnel to the death town. Jingle. Even though he is being Jingle at me right now. 100% town. well after that scumslip BS maybe 90% alan133. doesn't say much. perfect scum IMO never says anything out of the status quo, always protects himself from backlash etc. really surprised there has been no focus on him. Shady Sands. What can I say. you seem nice. too bad you don't see things my way. No hard feelings hopefully you change your mind after my flip Goodkarma. rational about me today. thanks. there is hope for us yet! Ok think thats it. GLHF! | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:40 Shady Sands wrote: Why are you doing this for JingleHell, but spent so much time arguing against aRyuujin and Ange? If you're convinced that aRyuu and Ange are scum, then shouldn't you be abandoning/ignoring them, and trying to persuade JingleHell? Because I have read this game, His previous game. and the tech support forum. I tried to reason with him. But he won't have it. although it is somewhat suspicious. I am more suspicious of the guys getting me lynched. Right? | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:54 JingleHell wrote: Uhm, bringing up the Tech Board is probably the worst thing you could do. Seeing as things there tend to be objective right/wrong. Ignoring, of course, the parts where that's not a game, and it's clearly just a desperate ad hom attempt to make me look stubborn. Funny thing, if I'm so damn stubborn, why do my suspicions shift so readily with new information? your an INTP? honestly jingle i don;t know you at all. these are just based off my perceptions of you. others have had the same perceptions. I am really not in a position to explain your behaviour better than you are. so I don;t know why you would ask me. | ||
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On August 07 2012 02:02 JingleHell wrote: You're the one accusing me of being stubborn, when it's not corroborated. Yes, in fact, I expect you to be able to justify it without an ad hominem attack based off of something I do elsewhere in the community that's utterly impossible to compare. I was hardly attacking you. I just cannot be bothered reasoning with you anymore than I already have. I have mentioned I want to go to sleep right. And based off everything I have read of you. you are incredibly difficult to argue with. it is 3.00am and I am done. Everything is in my filter. See you in postgame! | ||
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Golbat: I think that your mislynch was purely down to your indecisiveness in regards to Mordanis. If you are goign to make a vote make sure that you are at least confident enough to not unvote as soon as someone questions you. Overall you seemed nice and I was sorry to see you go. Mordanis: <3 you were really useful to me this game as my go to scum read. Sorry for tunnelling you but there was always something I could spin. Your reads and thoughts in the qt were a huge improvement from what I saw in the game. Shady: Gah you were the second most frustrating person this game. Twice it came down to you to simply not switch your vote. With Zork and with me. but you made the right call every time. Well done. Ange777: You came out of nowhere to carry this game on your back! Easily the best player from zork onwards, but I really didn't view you as a threat before that. I think that the more sure you are in your reads the better you are at arguing them. I will be very wary of you as scum in the future. (maybe policy NK?) GoodKarma: You were frustrating for refusing to lynch Mordanis. And then the complete opposite when you were the only player to see my arguments my way. I wish you had been more vocal day 4 maybe then I could have got out of my lynch. Obvious.660: I would be really interested to hear what the reason was that you changed your mind on me. You had some correct reads early but your conclusions didn't really come out that way. If you thought alan and I were scum you should have pushed it with a good argument. JingleHell: Your attitude doesn't do you any favors. Although you knew what I was up to when I foolishly tried to defend you If I had just left you be, you would have earned us a mislynch with no effort on our part. You have good reads and ideas but the way you present them actually reduces their value. aRyuujin: Hey buddy . If it wasn't for ange777 I think I could have turned that lynch around onto you instead. Nevertheless It was great that you became active and I enjoyed arguing with you! Promethelax: You seem really nice and I look forward to rolling town with you in the Future! Sorry for mislynching you. You should read the scum QT where we plan it out, we are all super worried haha. We thought you were the doctor (which in our eyes was confirmed when you said there was a reason for buddying Keir) and we were all really nervous about actively trying to snipe you with a mislynch. I don't think there was enough to lynch you on and if town were playing that day as they played later it would have been different I think. Keirathi we thought you had a power role and so your NK was a snipe. I thought it was almost confirmed when you were saved. Because not only did I read you as a blue a Townie did. Turns out that was not the case. Early on you were well reasoned and slow to jump on bandwagons and thus were a dangerous player. Zorkmid: Zork, I think we collectively made bad decisions, It's not your fault we lost. Alan and I should have bussed you night 2 as soon as we saw that slip. Oh Well. I think alot of the miscommunication (not being in the QT that often) came from Malaysia (alan) and Australia (me) being such different Time zones from yours. alan: You are really good at this game. It's unfortunate you had such incompetent scum buddies and ange to deal with. You are really smart and were essentially my scum coach this game. GG <3 | ||
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