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On August 01 2012 13:11 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 11:59 Obvious.660 wrote:
If my understanding is correct, a majority of the suspicion about me stems from posting "What the fuck?" not long after the Golbat flip? LOL.
Seriously? Thats the most massive over-generalization I've ever seen. The "What the fuck" point was just icing on the cake. And it wasn't even about what you said, it was when you said it. After saying you didn't think you would be around for the end of the day (but that if you were, you would give some insight), you show up exactly 3 minutes after the flip to admonish the Vig lynch. For reference as to things about you I find scummy outside of the post-flip timing: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15660499Since then, you haven't changed my perspective towards you one bit. You have done nothing but tunnel Shady the entire game. The only other "case" you have made at all was the post about alan and Darth here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15662306 . That post says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You didn't call out anything they did as scummy, nor did you actually commit to a read of them being connected. You just beat around the bush about nothing whatsoever.
If I'm the scummiest player here, why am I still not getting your votes? Two days in a row you haven't voted for me despite what you call scummy behavior, favoring voting for self-apologetic newbies. You're voting for the easiest cases first. Put your money where your mouth is and start voting for me if you think I'm a liability. My vote will stay on Shady Sands until something better comes up. When day 3 rolls around I expect to see a full case from you about me and a vote on me.
Two words come up when I look at your playstyle: too careful.
The alan/Darth thing I brought up is dead, I withdrew my claim about it. Then I had to go even further to clarify my intent. If you think I'm scum, then I'm the worst scum in this game. That's the bottom line, because it's obvious.
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Maybe your problem is that I have problems. Can we get something else useful in your filter besides being petulant?
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On August 01 2012 14:19 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 14:11 Obvious.660 wrote:
Maybe your problem is that I have problems. Can we get something else useful in your filter besides being petulant? Really?
Reary.
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Since people want to know in advance, I will be offline for most of Friday and Saturday. Best I'll be able to do is taking a quick look at developments and pushing whatever case I feel is strongest with limited time. First weekend of August is the Polish festival at my church and my family runs the hotdogs and hamburgers booth, so I'll be disconnected for like 12-14 hours both days. I can't get out of this without being 6 feet under.
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WP Keirathi, hope to play with you in future games here on TL.
I stayed up for this one. This is... an interesting turn. It did seem you two were buddied up to some degree, but I didn't see this as an outcome. Definitely missed the mason slip. We have (at least) ~48 hours with you and now that there's a confirmed town member, everyone's going to want to get on Shady Sands' good side. I am no exception.
Since there's no better time than the present, I'll address each of the points Keirathi has against me to the best of my ability and hope this allays them so we can move on to my greater injustices against DarthPunk and Ange777 in darker times.
To one Mr. Obvious.660, I bequath some mistrust along the same lines as one Mr. Promethelax. - 1. You were extremely active in the pre-game, but have posted very, very little since. Outside obligations I can understand, so not a major point, but something for everyone to think about.
- 2. My main scummy tidbit I've picked up from you is the same as one of my points on Mr. Promethelax: if you were so sure about Mr. Sands being scum, why weren't you in the thread defending your read? You were obviously here because you posted just 7 minutes after the deadline saying "What the fuck." Again, seems as if you were pretty ambivalent as to who actually died, be it Mr. Shady whom I've known was town, or Mr. Golbat.
- 3. The previous point makes me question why you said "I will do my best to get back to the thread before deadline to respond accordingly to any changes, but I'd not like getting modkilled for failing to vote." if you were actually around at the deadline and didn't respond to any changes except who died.
- 1. Absolutely, my activity level pre-game matched my excitement to jump right back into another Mafia game having just been lynched in Newbie Mini XXI. I looked at the general tone of the hosts and found Marv's PENISES post and felt like spreading some of my enthusiasm around by having thread funsies before the game. This was a point in time where I had no external obligations to fulfill and I could engage in merrily checking for subscription updates while browsing the TL forums or between games of SC2, whatever I happened to be doing. Those are my posting behaviors when nothing IRL is nagging me (which admittedly is too much of the time, being unemployed), but coincidentally things are just coming up that I have to deal with, as anyone else would, at inopportune times. It's happened to everyone at some point. Too tired, too busy, handling business with a lawyer in the case of Shady Sands. We need to remember to not get fixated completely on these absences and ignore everything else going on, as frustrating as they are.
- 2. I wasn't defending my read of Shady Sands because, to be honest, there was no way I was going to convince the town that my one piece of evidence was more scummy than the combined reasons people as listed against Golbat. Keirathi himself voted for Golbat, but remember that as partners you two had knowledge that none of the rest of the townspeople had. It's easier to see Keirathi pushing against me (and anyone else that was eyeing Shady Sands, I am not looking at the filter right now, just reacting to this independently of analysis for the moment) for looking further at Shady Sands as scummy when Keir has a vested interest to keep Shady around. To the onlooker, you could have ended up looking like a scum pair if someone had caught your first slip and misinterpreted it as scum QT versus mason QT chat.
"What the fuck?" is pretty much how I feel right now as well, considering that in your death you have presented us with a long list of so-so cases to analyze in a new light and try to get anything we can from it. I feel it's also an appropriate response to losing a strong town power role on the first day and I was disappointed that the voting went through on an obvious newbie via a super easy case. Flashbacks to XXI, seriously.
I will tell it like it is again: I posted as soon as I caught up on the thread. No analysis because that's all I had done was catch up on the thread.
- 3.
3. The previous point makes me question why you said "I will do my best to get back to the thread before deadline to respond accordingly to any changes, but I'd not like getting modkilled for failing to vote." if you were actually around at the deadline and didn't respond to any changes except who died. The timestamps are the key here.
Obvious.660 United States. July 28 2012 15:11- goodnight post
Obvious.660 United States. July 29 2012 06:07 - what the fuck
So I intentionally voted ~12 hours before the deadline knowing it was likely I wouldn't make it back to do anything meaningful before the deadline (including cast a vote). As it was, I started reading the thread probably while the end of day post was being composed just before deadline.
If Shady Sands (or anyone else, for that matter) has anything further for me to address and add to this list, I'm going to be around for a bit.
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On August 01 2012 14:20 aRyuujin wrote:
Im so sorry I completely forgot to vote -.-
My bad, I knew i would be busy but I didn't put up a vote before hand like I did day 1. Thanks hosts for not modkilling me yet <3, wont happen again
This guy has me worried. Need more than just two sentences between D2 lynch and N2 kill.
So I'm going back in time to this post:
On July 28 2012 01:48 aRyuujin wrote:MordanisShow nested quote +On July 27 2012 21:22 Shady Sands wrote:On July 27 2012 20:33 Shady Sands wrote:On July 27 2012 15:36 Mordanis wrote:... *Sigh* I'll begin by saying this: If the people jumping on my bandwagon 1/6th of the way through the first day are town, they are really doing a good job of muddling up the conversation. Look through the thread so far, and see that the only discussion before I posted my case was policy, and that very lenient. There was a lot of "Oop, don't want to attract attention, guess I'll say that we shouldn't policy lynch any lurkers". I admit that I rushed my two main posts, and they may have been suboptimal, but compare that to the entire rest of the populace. We've managed 2 cases so far, and I was one of them. The other is a direct response to mine. I really don't understand why the people who are tunnelling me are doing so: attacking the only person who has posted anything of substance (that isn't within the same bandwagon as you) seems anti-discussion. So while I certainly made a mistake in talking too much about Keir and potential blue roles, the biggest reason that I seem to be "in danger" is that I've been willing to say what I believe. Regardless, I see the bandwagon as being very interesting. There are 3 people who have had an overwhelming share in the activity against me. DarthPunk: He seems to have a hard time with my line of thought. I apologize, my last game ended with me and another player (Release <3) in a duel that had a lot secrecy and enigmatic reasoning. I came to this game expecting the same. If you take people at the face value of their words (In which case, I'm town so don't lynch me :D), then you tend to miss a lot of good reads. The way to catch scum is not to find the first invalid argument, but rather to find the players who are playing in an anti-town way. This includes delaying to reduce the amount of analysis, making the atmosphere bad for town, and muddling with plans. By posting my case on the first thing that I saw, I went in the direction of an atmosphere that welcomes content posting, started the scumhunt before it would have started had I not posted, and laid a fairly straightforward path for the town without explicitly discussing policy. We lynch the player with the scummiest play. So while my read may not have been perfect, my post should have helped town. On the other hand, creating a mass bandwagon on the one person who has posted anything of substance (besides the counter substance) seems to accomplish the goals of scum. Still, he seems more to have an issue following my logic than to be following a plan, as well as being the first to place suspicion on me. I give him a solid "mEh" on the scum-scale Shady: The most brazen of my accusers. Doesn't seem to be following the fine points of the game very closely. Still doesn't appear to get that the day cycle is 48 hours and not 12. Has a great time posting out perceived errors in my logic and then votes for me on said perceptions, without seeming to notice that one of his main points + Show Spoiler +if it were not for the fact that Mordanis is the only one stirring up controversy about Keir. makes no sense. Why would scum draw attention to himself on a case this early? Why especially would the scum stick to his guns rather than move on to greener pastures? Seems like really dumb play for scum, although perhaps he thinks I am that dumb. I am pretty sure I'm more intelligent than a garbage can though... Anyways, despite my annoyance with him, his play seems more uniformed than scummy. So to you Shady I say: Read through the OP again, and preferably some of the guides. Your play so far has been far from inspiring. And compared to this group, that's saying something. Golbat: The entire time so far he seems to have been itching to get on my bandwagon. His first post with more than 1 line says: + Show Spoiler +On July 27 2012 09:15 Golbat wrote:
Howdy guys! This will be my first game of mafia ever that wasn't an sc2 UMS, and those I could never quite get the hang of (mostly due to nobody else having a clue what was going on either). Hopefully, I'll be able to make more sense of the game in a format like this.
As far as the game goes, Mordanis' post about Keir's post where he was "virtually claiming town RB" seems to be a pretty scummy thing to do. It didn't seem to me to be a secret claim of any sort, just a rules clarification. Even if it was a super-secret claim that he could use later, I wouldn't believe him if that was the only evidence he had.
From what I've read elsewhere, that type of posting is classic scum behavior. Look like you're helping the town and trying to hunt scum, when in reality you're just blowing a townie's mistakes clear out of proportion to sow confusion and doubt.
Not everyone has posted, so I don't yet want to commit to a vote, but I've got my eye on you Mordanis. First he makes an excuse for potential scumslips (First time in a non UMS, take it easy on me), and then proceeds to quietly second the position of DarthPunk. He seems to be trying to avoid attention while being able to make excuses later on, with the added bonus of being able to hop onto a bandwagon on me without much thought from other players. His second post + Show Spoiler +On July 27 2012 11:31 Golbat wrote:
I think that lynching a lurker day one is only a good idea if we have no reads on people who might be scum. As far as that goes for me, I already have an idea of who might be scum, so I won't get behind lynching a lurker today.
Also, there's not so many people playing that we can afford to kill people off just because they aren't contributing enough. I mean, if you don't post at least once per day, you get modkilled anyways, so it's not lurkers we should watch out for, it's multiple contentless posts (i'm looking at you MrMedic).
is more of the same: he is trying to come off as pro-town without having to commit to anything as of yet. Particularly of importance is the phrase "I already have an idea of who might be scum". Almost brilliant, as it gives him the ability to jump on any bandwagon that forms. He could just say "Yep, just as I thought" and hop right on. Sure, it works better if the bandwagon was me, but if it ended on anyone else no one could say that he had flip-flopped. Finally, he posts this + Show Spoiler +On July 27 2012 13:36 Golbat wrote:
I mean honestly, it's gone on long enough.
##Vote Mordanis
If you're red, try to be less obvious next time.
If you're green, try to be less scummy next time.
I certainly hope you're not a blue. Awesome, he jumps on the bandwagon in 2nd/3rd position, early enough that he seems to be "leading", but late enough that he can avoid later suspicion by saying "Shady was in front of me!". He even tries to end the discussion by agreeing that the case on me is open and shut. Vague Pro-town comments + early excuse + bandwagon-ing + anti-discussion = quadruple scummy. So for right now at least: ##Vote: Golbat+ Show Spoiler [nonsense about Keir] +I'm really getting bored with the stuff about this. Read my second post about his "claim" + Show Spoiler [spoilered for you convenience] +On July 27 2012 12:44 Mordanis wrote:Soo apparently everyone has decided that scumhunting is a bad idea D1? The point of this game is to analyze things. Context does matter, but some of the things that have been suggested so far are sort of ridiculous. If someone went to bed right before the game began and had to go straight to work, and maybe forgets they could easily go almost a full 24 hours before posting. It doesn't make them scum, it just makes them busy. On the other hand, if you delay posting content until other people post content, then the scum hunt is never going to get going. I admit, my case again Keir was somewhat rushed, but if we don't start posting analysis, we lose any information that could have been gained, and basically start fresh D2, just down 1 or 2 townies (rando-lynch vs. no-lynch). Another thing: Mislynching D1 is sort of to be expected. Unless the scum choose to bus one of their own, the scum have allies and are therefore less likely to be lynched. You have to use the information that is gained from discussion to figure out who is scum most of the time. From Ver's Town Guide: Show nested quote +The most useless kind of lynch is a last minute switch that is really easy and safe to hop on the bandwagon for. If there's a highly polarized lynch, the dead information + voting lists can provide a lot, even if the people accused are all innocent (then you can see who's manipulating just out of site).
In other words, if we have a constructive D1 but mislynch, town is in much better position than if a random lynch happens to hit scum. Anyways, apparently people want me to respond to the FOS put on me. Darth seems to have misunderstood me. The 3 situations I posed were the 3 possible roles that Keir could be. I ran through what the outcome would be for each hypothetical. I would think it was obvious that I didn't believe that Keir was simultaneously red, green, and blue, but ... Aside from what appear to be a misunderstanding, there doesn't seem to be anything else. The reason that I think that Keir isn't blue is because blues tend to be somewhat lurky but do contribute to the scumhunt.Keir has been fairly active, though no scum-hunting (yet!), but brought attention to himself by trying to seem like a blue. From Ver's Town Guide: Show nested quote +To keep this simple and save time, let's look at some heuristics to find potential targets, then go through their post history to get the best ones. Here are some common heuristics I use of blue indicators:
-Tries to contribute but doesn't stick their neck out
-Shows fear/wants to instinctively hide
-Drastically lower post quantity compared to games when they are green but still tries to contribute.
-Focuses most of their posts on blue roles or ignores them entirely.
-To figure out which role specifically, they will focus unnatural amounts of attention on that role, know the rules for that role thoroughly, or ignore it entirely while mentioning other blue roles. Figuring out the specific is difficult to ascertain and not always applicable, but these heuristics will hold up more often than not. Look at the post I indicated in my case, it fits those last two heuristics to a tee, but the other two are off(policy is sort of a gray-zone, sort of pro-town and sort of "safe play" but everyone does it + Show Spoiler +). That's why I feel Keir isn't blue, because he seems to be trying to seem blue but some of his actions are the opposite. And there was the public question: when I was vigi, I asked several questions about my role, but to try to hide my role I never posted them publically, I PMd them. His play screams to me a somewhat experienced player trying to fake blue. I hate doing this, but I feel there are some points that people should not miss. TLDR:Scumhunt should begin the moment content is posted, and Keir is almost certainly green or red. , and find for me one place where I explicitly say that we should lynch Keir. All I said was that he isn't blue. Which leaves the two possibilities of him being scum or VT, which everyone seemed to interpret as pushing for a lynch. I over committed to defending what I still believe to be a good read for being 2 pages in, but I didn't try to start a bandwagon on him. If you really want to make a big deal out of a mistake and end the discussion before the day cycle is 1/4 of the way done, by all means just vote for me and agree that its obvious. If you don't feel that way, do your own analysis and point fingers. Town doesn't win by singing Kum Ba Yah, My Lord. I think this is pretty important to parse through, because it makes me want to refrain from lynching Mordanis until day 2 or 3. I'm going to state that I share Mordanis' and Keir's concerns that Golbat may be scum. This is especially true if Mordanis flips green or blue--then Golbat is very clearly red, and vice versa. That being said, however, I'm still pretty suspicious of Mordanis' desire to start scumhunting an hour and a half into the game, when only half of the players had even posted. This was exacerbated by the fact that his case against Keir was extremely poor, almost intentionally so--as if Mordanis wanted more heat than light to be shed on the situation. One of the main things I'd like to point out here is that scum do not necessarily have to play quietly. It's easier for the scum to play that way, but playing loudly is also a valid scum tactic for sowing discord and division within the town--which is what I thought Mord's post was trying to do. Now that the Keir case is closed, however, and Mord+Keir have both identified Golbat's behavior as pretty odd in and of itself, then I think it would be worthwhile to take a look at Golbat. (I'm still a suspicious of Mord, but mainly because his behavior has created so much uncertainty as to what he really could be--and Golbat can clear up a lot of that.) Besides being the first one to "formally" vote for Mordanis, Golbat was also the first one to accuse Mord of faulty analysis. Granted, Golbat's claims were valid--but his more recent posts have made me pretty suspicious. First, let's ignore the list for a bit--we'll circle back to it, but one general thing to note about Golbat's posting: he seems to spend more time trying to make himself look like a townie than trying to figure out who is scum. This is the kicker that shifted my focus from Mord to him. Look at this train of posts below: + Show Spoiler [Golbat's posts since the "…] +On July 27 2012 16:21 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 16:14 Keirathi wrote:On July 27 2012 16:07 Golbat wrote:
Keir He hasn't even called out his accuser as being scummy at all.
On July 27 2012 16:07 Golbat wrote:
Mord I really like the OMGUS! vote though, <3.
So you call Mord out for OMGUS'ing you, but want me to OMGUS him? That's not what I said. I said that you didn't call him out at all, not that you didn't vote for him. I wouldn't expect you to vote for someone just because they voted for you. But saying "hey bro, cool your jets" at least would have been something. Until page 12 I'm pretty sure you didn't even respond to his accusations, but I might have missed a post. What Mord did was go "Oh so you're gonna vote for me? WELL I'M GONNA VOTE FOR YOU, TAKE THAT! Completely different. And then this post: On July 27 2012 16:49 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 16:26 Keirathi wrote:
@Goldbat: I responded to both of his posts regarding me with pretty strong dismissals for being a bad case. My apologies. I completely forgot about those two posts. Maybe i'm being too hasty with my accusing Mord of being scum from one bad read early in the game. It just seems really fishy that he stuck with it for so long. For the time being mord, I'm not convinced you're not scum, but i'm being convinced less and less that you are the more I think about it. So for the time being, ##unvoteI just really want to win my first game, and I want to do it while playing well, which is what got me excited to get a slam-dunk mafia kill on day one. I know for a fact that i'm not scum, and that's all I really know at this point. Right now, besides Mord, I think that our best bet is to see who isn't contributing anything to the discusssion and then get rid of them. I admit that all of my reads so far could be wrong 100%. However, i don't think posting my day1 reads about all of the people is the same thing as making a town list, because I didn't even give an opinion on half of the people. I could also do without your "oh look at how good I am, you guys are bad" attitude. This is a newbie game, and calling people bad accomplishes nothing except potentially driving people away. P.S. I know I said "i'm not one to throw votes around yadda yadda yadda, but + Show Spoiler +That was me trying to be all internet tough . I'll try to tone down my accusatory-ness, but that's just me being new to the game. And this: On July 27 2012 18:51 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 18:42 alan133 wrote:
I have read and re-read the filters but couldn't find anything other than Mordanis' "meh" case on Kei and subsequent cases against Mordanis for that.
I was kinda thrown off when Golbat decides to unvote Mordanis because he started off having high confidence that he is scum. His "I am a newbie post" also contributes to my suspicions on him. I quickly dismissed them because I still have my FOS on Mordanis and he did a case on Golbat too.
Now that Ange777 has mentioned it, I would like to ask Golbat, what makes you think that Mordanis is not scum anymore? To me, his only "townie points" is that he is the first player who built a case, but that's about it. Is there some "obvious" reason that I missed? Every time I re-read Mordanis's posts I am more convinced that he is scum. The reason I backed off of Mord is because I felt like I may have been pushing too strongly against him based on his first bad read. I didn't want to appear to be scum myself, so I backed off for the moment. I still have a sneaking suspicion about him that he may be mafia, but I didn't want to lynch myself by pushing too hard on a bad read. I feel like i've been talking in circles around mord, "He's scum, no he's town, no he might be scum, no he's probably town", so I feel like I need to take a definite stance on the matter, and that is ##FoS MordanisIt's not the flat-out vote that it was before, but I still don't trust you. I've heard several times to trust my reads, and so this is my position. We'll see what happens between now and lynch time. + Show Spoiler +but for real now, I need to step away from the thread for a few hours And this: On July 27 2012 18:44 Golbat wrote:
I can understand why you would read my actions so far in the game as scum, but they're honestly just the actions of a bad player who thought he had a dead on scum read and was most likely very, very wrong. From now on i'll be more careful with who I vote for, because while I DID indeed redact my vote, I really really dislike when that happens on the whole. I got a little carried away and luckily it happened this early on and not in a situation where I might have cause a loss for town.
Basically, I'm NOT scum, and anything scummy I have said or done so far can be explained by my inexperience.
After reading Prom's post (especially the bit regarding self-imposed posting limits), I feel like it's time for me to take a break, especially after spewing so much bullshit and bad play all over the thread. See you in about 6-12 hours. As soon as people start pressuring him, Golbat says that he's not scum in 4 different ways. He emphasizes his newbieness, he says he's just eager to win, then he self-consciously makes a post to make himself not seem like a flip-flopper. Then, when he finally realizes he's digging himself into a hole, he decides to pull the Ostrich maneuver and stick his head into said hole for 6-12 hours. Undoubtedly, if he is red, he is now sending a clear signal to his buddies to bail him out and hopefully shift the discussion to someone else by the time he is out of said hole. Next post will be about Golbat's "list post". EBWOP: Just realized I forgot to slot in why Mord's post makes me want to hold off to Day2/3--Mord highlights "drawing attention to himself" and a willingness to stand up for his beliefs as keystones of his in-game habits. The thing with this playstyle is that playing as a "noisy scum" is very hard to keep up over 2 or 3 in-game days, because in a game as small as this, the analysis will very quickly start to shift in the right direction and noisy attempts to derail become more and more risky as the posts pile on--inevitably a fairly major scumslip will be made. By committing publicly to this sort of strategy, we can judge Mord the following way: if Mord continues to play loud and does not get quiet over the next few days, then Mord will either burn out quickly and scumslip or prove that he is not scum. If Mord quiets down after Day 1, then his above post basically consigns him to becoming an easy lynch--especially if Golbat flips blue/green. Shady's last edit summarizes why we dont vote for mordanis If he's mafia he will be a free kill soon if he's not, why vote
aRyuujin chimes in here to... echo Shady Sands. Note that after this point, Mordanis falls off aRyuujin's radar completely.
This marks the only vote contributed thus far (having missed D2 vote) to a successful mislynch, and we know better than to ask at this point who yesterday's candidate would have been after the MrMedic drop out scenario.
On July 29 2012 06:27 aRyuujin wrote:
I'll be here for the next couple of hours.
Wow, that sucked. Really wish he just claimed though, when he realized that he was a lynch possibility.
To be fair, I still think his actions were the most scummy so far, and I definitely would make that vote again.
I'm noting here that he would make the easy vote again. Danger, Will Robinson.
And now... we have silence. A missed vote, a short apology, and nothing else to go on.
##FOS aRyuujin
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On August 02 2012 09:08 goodkarma wrote:
@Shady, a couple quick things:
Three scum is a very standard setup for this type of game. In fact, the upcoming XXIII NMM game which is being set up by the same people has three guaranteed scum. It has been brought up before that 2 is a very real possibility for this type of setup (C9++), but then again so is a serial killer. I'm under the general impression that they only followed this setup loosely, as sk wasn't even in the list of possible roles. In the back of my mind, I keep assuming there's three, and I know I'm not the only one to do so in this thread.
And no commentary on my suspect list based on voting histories? I will have a more comprehensive write-up on my thoughts on this, but I feel it's an important point of discussion. I would like to hear some people weigh in on this, especially our one confirmed town.
@Obvious:
As Keir mentioned to you earlier, contributing nothing but your defense is not very pro-town. That is why I'm happy to see at least a little bit of discussion of your suspect (aRyuujin). I know you've also in the past occassionally made a few points against people you felt were scum, but I'd like to see some truly in-depth cases from you (more than a few bullet points). Allowing town to see your scum case arguements is honestly more important for you right now than only playing defense whenever someone throws an accusation your way if you are to establish your innocence.
I don't disagree with needing more points, but there's very few points to make at his level of activity. You'd do well to take your own advice, too. Make your case for today. Call to action time.
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Votecount please, and welcome back from your vacation Ghost|404 not found.
Marv beat us severely while you were gone, can you give him some more cohosting points please?
Would be possible to update (first post) flips/imporant posts?
Catching up on the thread with coffee.
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On August 02 2012 09:08 goodkarma wrote:
@Obvious:
As Keir mentioned to you earlier, contributing nothing but your defense is not very pro-town. That is why I'm happy to see at least a little bit of discussion of your suspect (aRyuujin). I know you've also in the past occassionally made a few points against people you felt were scum, but I'd like to see some truly in-depth cases from you (more than a few bullet points). Allowing town to see your scum case arguements is honestly more important for you right now than only playing defense whenever someone throws an accusation your way if you are to establish your innocence.
My FOS has resulted in not helping town at all. Sorry that it hasn't resulted in anything useful, I wanted more to go on for aRyuujin and it's already been almost a day with no actual reaction. I'm just going to have to let it go for now and worry about which candidate is best for today's lynch, and try to exonerate them if I don't feel their motivations are scum-aligned.
In the case of Day 1, not trying to convince others that Golbat was a bad vote for his newbie playstyle which I felt matched my own in my last game where I was in a similar position didn't help town. In the case of Day 2, I didn't push my vote for Shady Sands enough compared to people's interpretations of Promethelax' scummy-looking behavior. Clearly this is bad in hindsight, as it would have also resulted in a mislynch of Shady Sands. So, as people have pointed out, I need to remedy this of my history is going to make this an easy scum victory should I survive to MYLO/LYLO.
Ange777 and JingleHell are still going back and forth (as I write this) and for all that I can tell they're just tunneling the shit out of each other. I'll let them have their argument and look at it later.
Goodkarma, has once again brought up the shit I thought we laid to rest and is distracting the town (namely me) with this bullshit once again. Therefore, ##VOTE GoodKarma, and yes, it's OMGUS, emphasis on you suck.
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IN BEFORE NONSENSE ABOUT TOWN VOICE COMES UP AGAIN.
I say we listen to JingleHell because he's the most rational player here. If we don't we lose. If we do and he's scum, we lose anyway. These are not opinions, they are facts.
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I'm not tunneling anyone. I'm trying to get some reactions because my reads are all "newbie newbie newbie baddie".
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You're getting in the way of me being illogical and irrational in order to get more information. Stop it.
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Sorry, yeah, I'm just being a little bit crazy right now. I went and took a walk to clear my head. Also, I need more coffee. I'll try to explain my thoughts as best I can in a little bit.
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Short story is I'm dealing with some depression and that was sort of a manic outburst. Gonna kill that discussion off and just add that Goodkarma seems to have the most accurate read on my state at the moment and I'm gonna try my best to change it for the better starting right now. I've gotten my head into a good place (as good as it's going to get, I guess) and I want to prove my towniness to the best of my ability tonight while helping to make sure we're not up shit-creek without a definite candidate for lynch at deadline. I am at your disposal for thoughts on cases and I will take a look at the ones that have come up (most recently the one on Zorkmid was at least an interesting theory, which I will take a loot at next). As I have already made you aware, I'm offline for most of the next two days (Fri, Sat) for volunteer work, so the earlier I get to work the better.
It's too late into the game to have votes all over the place. Majority is now 5!
Incoming case on Zorkmid (since there's some suspicion already forming, I'm going to start from the top of his filter and work my way down).
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First we start with an interesting question from Zorkmid:
On July 27 2012 06:43 Zorkmid wrote:
I'm not saying that the "best town play" isn't to lynch scum, I'm just saying that in the absence of that inactivity and liars are the next logical targets.
Warning: Nub question::::We HAVE to lynch someone each day, right? Okay, so right off the bat here we have a question that puts the conversation in an awkward area. Why would we ever want to discuss a no-lynch on the first day? It's the kind of question that leaves us talking about crazy circumstances and not about who is scummy and who is not. Distraction from scum hunting
The results of this clarification are even less thrilling:
On July 27 2012 06:48 Zorkmid wrote:
I'll have to think about that for a little while, hopefully while I'm gone we'll hear more from the others! So he's distracting the town with no-lynch talk and then dismissing himself from the conversation to keep the spotlight off. When he finally comes back, we find out how truly newbie he's going to act:
On July 27 2012 08:15 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 08:12 Shady Sands wrote:
From a logic standpoint, it makes sense to always have a lynch target each day, because voting patterns, voting times, and the order in which players vote are some of the most important clues that the town can use.
For example, if the target turns out to be green or blue, then we can backtrack and start seeing who started the bandwagoning and go from there. If the target turns out to be red, we can see who did the last minute voting or tried to swing the balance away from them, and add those to the list.
But if we simply go for a no-lynch, there's no pressure on the scum to actually put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. This makes perfect sense to me, so how we determine who to target initially? This is truly a gem: a totally hands off way to let others start the scum hunting without getting his hands dirty at all.
+ Show Spoiler [in which Zorkmid parrots Shady Sands] +On July 27 2012 22:11 Zorkmid wrote:Another of these people is Golbat: So far, Golbat has, in this order: voted Mordanis
unvoted Mordanis
FoS MordanisHis unvote seems to coincide with Mordanis's making a case on him. He claims he backed off the vote because: Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 18:51 Golbat wrote:
The reason I backed off of Mord is because I felt like I may have been pushing too strongly against him based on his first bad read. I didn't want to appear to be scum myself, so I backed off for the moment. I still have a sneaking suspicion about him that he may be mafia, but I didn't want to lynch myself by pushing too hard on a bad read.
I feel like i've been talking in circles around mord, "He's scum, no he's town, no he might be scum, no he's probably town", so I feel like I need to take a definite stance on the matter, and that is #FoS Mordanis
+ Show Spoiler +This reminds me of that futurama ambassador from the neutral planet. "All I know is that my guy says maybe." I'm not sure what this could mean, but I think that it's worth pointing out. It's one of the stranger seeming posts I've read in this game. Is the deadline today at 17:00 EDT?I am suspicious of both of these players right now, but there's lots of daylight left.
Earlier in that post he just writes what happened with Mordanis and Keirathi regarding the RB conversation, telling us that his take on Mordanis' back and forth with Keir regarding a RB came away with Mordanis seeming town:
On July 27 2012 22:11 Zorkmid wrote:
I see this as a GIANT leap of reasoning, and I still see Mordanis's case as an attempt (albeit a clumbsy one) to get the ball rolling in XXII. I don't know if a Zorkmid flip tells us anything about Mordanis but keep this in mind if you're ever thinking about it.
These three posts happen, look at the timestamps, and more specifically the content of the posts, to see the irony:
On July 28 2012 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
Activity seems woefully slow. I guess that most of you are on different clocks that I am.
On July 29 2012 01:58 Zorkmid wrote:
I'm at wonderland for b'day will be more active tomorrow.
##vote: golbat
On July 30 2012 04:57 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 08:09 Shady Sands wrote:
Another thing to note:
Zorkmid and Obvious both ended up shifting to Golbat with minimal analysis at all. I'd say Zork looks the quietest between the two, but Obvious also strikes me as a little odd too, since he popped into the thread 10 minutes after Golbat's lynch without commenting once in the prior six hours, even though he was trying to get me lynched and people were busy bandwagoning Golbat. Normally, I'd expect someone who was trying to aim for a lynch on someone to at least argue their case before the lynch when the town was heading in the opposite direction.
I have a few hunches on where we should go next, but I'd like everyone to read through the above posts first. I've been Partying for the last two days, just had a birthday. I did post ample reasoning for my vote against Golbat, it's here. I made my vote post from a Blue Jays game, (we won 8-3 yea!) but basically nothing of note happened in the thread since that analysis post, so I felt his strange play best merited my vote. (How fucking wrong was I? And 6 others as well. Not a good start). I'll make another analysis post in a little while. How long until night? We have the perfect excuse (it was indeed his birthday, his icon proved it) and on top of it we have a complaint for lack of activity followed by... lack of activity! I see no pro-town actions here.
This one gets sectioned out by itself for all the magic it contains:
+ Show Spoiler [in which we find anger] +On July 30 2012 09:14 Zorkmid wrote:Since we've been told that: Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:04 marvellosity wrote:
Day post is flavour only, there are no clues to night events within it All that we really know is that we have a roleblocker(medic or otherwise), and that that roleblocker saved a kill. (I don't buy the idea that mafia didn't use a KP, especially not in a newbie game). From this I can infer that the same person viewed as most dangerous by mafia, was viewed as the most valuable townie by the roleblocker. I'm too tired to do any analysis. And frankly from the tone about my posting, I don't have much desire to. I'll answer some questions:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 13:19 Obvious.660 wrote:Zorkmid's vote comes off to me as a bandwagon vote. Evidence against Golbat was that Golbat finally settled on a decision for his best scum read? On July 27 2012 22:11 Zorkmid wrote:Another of these people is Golbat: So far, Golbat has, in this order: voted Mordanis
unvoted Mordanis
FoS MordanisHis unvote seems to coincide with Mordanis's making a case on him. He claims he backed off the vote because: On July 27 2012 18:51 Golbat wrote:
The reason I backed off of Mord is because I felt like I may have been pushing too strongly against him based on his first bad read. I didn't want to appear to be scum myself, so I backed off for the moment. I still have a sneaking suspicion about him that he may be mafia, but I didn't want to lynch myself by pushing too hard on a bad read.
I feel like i've been talking in circles around mord, "He's scum, no he's town, no he might be scum, no he's probably town", so I feel like I need to take a definite stance on the matter, and that is #FoS Mordanis
I'm not sure what this could mean, but I think that it's worth pointing out. It's one of the stranger seeming posts I've read in this game. Pretty arbitrary reason to vote for someone. Can you explain what you mean by town vibe in that post? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15625737) I could understand not having a definite scum read from it, but implying the opposite it a bit premature. It does seem to be a fairly arbitrary reason to vote for Golbat, I agree. I'll be honest that at the time of my vote, I hadn't been following the game very closely, and Golbat was just the player I thought most likely to be scum as of the time of (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15625737). When I said "town vibe" (refering to Mordanis' case) I just believed he was just trying to get a conversation going, and the reasons he gave for it being a weak case rang true to me. Just saw this question as I was working on my post: Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:44 Keirathi wrote:I'm pretty saddened by your lack of participation so far. You've shown the ability to make constructive posts. Therefor, I question your vote onto Golbat without much in the way of explanation. Was it just to avoid a no-lynch, or did you actually think he was scum? Also, this quote bothers me: Zorkmid wrote
The reason that my opinion from "lynch all liars and lynch all inactives" to not feeling as strongly about it is just because I was not aware that a non-lynch was possible. I am curious as to why the possibility of no-lynching makes you feel less certain about lynching liars and lurkers. Not stating a solid stance just because of the possibility of a no-lynch doesn't make much sense to me. Because why risk killing a townie without a good reason. If we lynch MrMedic (as an example of a lurker) and he flips green, what was the point? About Golbat, my reasons for voting for him are re-iterated in this post. I feel a little funny defending my vote to lynch a guy to someone who voted the same guy. Why'd YOU vote for him? Oh right, he played scummy as fuck. Rantddendum:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 07:58 goodkarma wrote:
Okay. I'm putting together my notes and writing my long-promised suspect list.
Wouldn't usually waste a post stating this, but one-line fluff posts seem to be all the rage.. -_- (MrMedic and Zorkmid...)
Tbh it shouldn't really matter exactly how no one died last night. Now that Golbat has flipped, and day two has begun, let's not waste any time getting our cases put together. Not so much a fluff post, but I'm sick of being called out for inactivity on a fridaynight/saturday. I was busy, handle it. Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 14:39 Shady Sands wrote:On July 29 2012 13:19 Obvious.660 wrote:
In regards to my activity, should be able to pick it up by Monday if I haven't been decimated. Going for quality over quantity til the wedding stuff (not my wedding) is finished. (double spacing to keep things grouped) Weird, why didn't he mention he had a wedding to attend in any of his earlier posts in the thread? This seems like a pretty strange after-the-fact excuse for any strange patterns of activity. Same goes for this shit, stop it. You too Keir. I've heard it from several people already. I'm busy, SHUT THE (expunged) UP.
On July 30 2012 09:14 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 13:19 Obvious.660 wrote:Zorkmid's vote comes off to me as a bandwagon vote. Evidence against Golbat was that Golbat finally settled on a decision for his best scum read? On July 27 2012 22:11 Zorkmid wrote:Another of these people is Golbat: So far, Golbat has, in this order: voted Mordanis
unvoted Mordanis
FoS MordanisHis unvote seems to coincide with Mordanis's making a case on him. He claims he backed off the vote because: On July 27 2012 18:51 Golbat wrote:
The reason I backed off of Mord is because I felt like I may have been pushing too strongly against him based on his first bad read. I didn't want to appear to be scum myself, so I backed off for the moment. I still have a sneaking suspicion about him that he may be mafia, but I didn't want to lynch myself by pushing too hard on a bad read.
I feel like i've been talking in circles around mord, "He's scum, no he's town, no he might be scum, no he's probably town", so I feel like I need to take a definite stance on the matter, and that is #FoS Mordanis
I'm not sure what this could mean, but I think that it's worth pointing out. It's one of the stranger seeming posts I've read in this game. Pretty arbitrary reason to vote for someone. Can you explain what you mean by town vibe in that post? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15625737) I could understand not having a definite scum read from it, but implying the opposite it a bit premature. It does seem to be a fairly arbitrary reason to vote for Golbat, I agree. I'll be honest that at the time of my vote, I hadn't been following the game very closely, and Golbat was just the player I thought most likely to be scum as of the time of (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15625737).When I said "town vibe" (refering to Mordanis' case) I just believed he was just trying to get a conversation going, and the reasons he gave for it being a weak case rang true to me. Are we setting up Mordanis as town here in case of the eventual fall? What does Zorkmid know about Mordanis that we don't? Or am I just going to far with these questions and Zorkmid is once again stating the obvious about Mordanis, as any town member is capable of? I'm inclined to believe this statement isn't indicative of alignment, but I want to emphasize it because once again we have Zorkmid coming to the defense of Mordanis.
On July 30 2012 23:50 Zorkmid wrote:After reading the last 50 or 60 posts in this thread, one of the things that jumped out at me was this: Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 11:21 Keirathi wrote:On July 30 2012 10:44 Promethelax wrote:
I wanted to know why it was those two mosre than the other three. That is why you feel that your cases against them are better than the ones against Me, Mord and Zork.
goodkarma - I just can't imagine a townie reasoning for his disrupting discussions and bringing us back to talking about lurkers repeatedly. Add in to that the case that you made, and for now I feel the strongest about him. Let's have a look at GK!Goodkarma says that he was hesistant to "join the Mordanis lynch bandwagon" early on in the game, a statement in keeping with his lurker policy. At this point he voted for aRyuujin, while averring his suspicions of MrMedic and Promethelax for the same reasons. He then changed his vote from aRyuujin to Golbat, at that time it was the 5th vote on Golbat. GK explains why he didn't vote for shady " he has provided some meaningful discussion for the town, and hasn't jumped on every bandwaggon he sees...". I'm curious as to why after dropping his vote on aRyujin, he leapt to Golbat next, and not those he was originally suspicious of: Myself, Obvious and MrMedic. I know I voted for the same guy, but I'm just a bit surprised at your choice to vote for Golbat given your "call to action". GK, would you have been likely to change your vote a second time, had Golbat done a better job of defending himself? Zorkmid seems perfectly happy to get eyes on the semi-active (at the time) goodkarma, who indeed was talking of lurkers instead of active players and in general not showing his hand. He later remedies this and has since opened up quite a bit more and currently has a FOS/case on.. Zorkmid!
In general, Zorkmid seems to have a pretty good handle on the ROLES of the game but not on the RULES. Why would Zorkmid know/share this information if he's been establishing himself as a complete newbie the whole game?
On August 01 2012 04:37 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 04:33 Ange777 wrote:On August 01 2012 04:28 Keirathi wrote:
Also, I just want to add that I am curious about Prom's pseudo-claim. We know we have another blue role (Medic or Roleblocker) or that mafia held their KP to fake claim medic (which despite aRyuujin and Zorkmid's pessimism, I DO feel like is a possibility in a newbie game). In my first game ever I rolled scum and I would have never thought of that possibility. What would they gain by faking a medic? Later on the game they could say: "I am a medicOn day 1, I saved player X." Might be done to save a mafioso under pressure, or to try and draw out any blues.
Finally Zorkmid decides his stance on a no-lynch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15691175
On August 02 2012 11:21 Zorkmid wrote:
About Golbat, I did find his play scummy, especially his on again-off again Mordanis suspicions. I didn't vote for him to avoid a no-lynch, I actually have no problem whatsoever with a no-lynch that early in the game. I believe that now we're getting to the point in the game where a no-lynch hurts more than it did earlier in the game, Scum is getting closer to a win. Barring a lucky save, we're going to lose 2 more townies in the next two nights.
That said, another mis-lynch is even worse.
About why the possibility of no-lynching appealed to me early game, was that it would give us more time to make a better informed lynch, reducing the chance of a mis-lynch of a town lurker on day 2. We all what happened there. However, at this critical juncture in the game, I think it more likely that a lurker would flip red than a lurker earlier in the game. Scum know it's dangerous to lurk after the first day. We even had a bunch of conversation talking about policy lynching lurkers to get everyone to participate. This implies that Zorkmid is OKAY with having lurkers around: he was willing to go for a no-lynch until he had more information by way a process in which lurkers flourish.
The scumslip that Ange777 picked up:
On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:
@ ange777.
The zork scumslip combined with his lurky posting habits are certainly cause for suspicion. I don't like his explanation for the statement. He is saying that he looks at certain posts through different roles but does not actually explain the slip at all. What was he trying to say there? It was WIFOM pure and simple. He has not answered the case on him adequately and he has not provided much in the way of cases. What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch. Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. Regarding the red/blue portion, it really was too emphasized. I'd give BOTD if there wasn't a whole pile of evidence against Zorkmid, but this post exists so it's on the pile now. We've already established he's been playing newbie from the early game, so how does he know what a blue/green would or wouldn't say? Especially if that thing was said to draw a reaction, which for much of this game has been a necessary tactic to use.
Zorkmid's dismissal:
On August 03 2012 01:38 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 01:08 Ange777 wrote:On August 03 2012 01:02 Zorkmid wrote:On August 03 2012 00:59 Ange777 wrote:@Zorkmid
On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness Zork says he doesn't think that as a green or blue he would ever post that. Why does he need to say "as a green or blue"? This already proves that he does not think of himself as green or blue! Because when he sees the "relief post", he sees it from scum's perspective thinking it would be such a scummy statement for himself to say due to confirmation bias. I'm going to let someone else explain to you why this is stupid. Volunteers? Giving up? Not even trying to defend your blatant lie anymore? By what logic does my saying "as a green or blue" prove that I'm red? If someone said, "if I were a cop, I'd check player X" would that prove they're not cops? Why are you tunnelling me with NOTHING? Take it for what you will.
And finally, in lieu of making a case of his own, Zorkmid has elected to go with the confirmed-town's suspicions and place his vote on GoodKarma through a summary of their thoughts and a vote from himself.
+ Show Spoiler [spoiler all the things] +On August 03 2012 02:39 Zorkmid wrote:@Goodkarma I'm looking at your post about voting records. On day 2, both Keirathi and Prom voted for you. I want to examine their cases on you, since they were made by 2 confirmed townies, as well as Shady's. From Prom:+ Show Spoiler +I know it is obscenely long don't worry. It is easy to simplify. There are three points.
1 the use of 'a' instead of 'my'
2 I told him not to do something that is actually against the rules
3 my overuse of the word town
and
4 OMGUSOMGUSOMGUS
seriously that is the entirety of his case against me. The only point which might be valid is the third but it was a joke (one I now regret obviously) since saying I was pro-town without being pro-town was how Kier had caught me in XIX. I honestly thought the use of town beers and a town line instead of town circle made it really obvious it was a joke. I should have known there were secret Romanians on TL Mafia.
So karma: out of those three points one is pants-on-head, one is semantics and one is me being dumb enough to joke around. Where is this case you don't think I can respond to. You have talked about my posting habits as a possible fourth point but I can't do anything about that. I'm here while I am home and awake and that will continue until town wins or I am lynched/nk'd
He follows all of this up with a decent case against the same lurker he wanted to lynch d1. Cases against semi-lurkers are the easiest to make as mafia and tunneling one player gives you an easy out when you are wrong about anything else. This play continues to read as scum to me and, therefore,
## Vote: Karma At the time, it seemed like a big part of his case on you was him just trying to turn the focus back onto you, which can indicate scumminess, but he wasn't. He believed your tunnelling, and accusations on "semi-lurkers" reads as scum behavior. I agree with him to the extent that those are the easier targets. You yourself are one of the least active posters so far (in a game fraught with inactivity). From Keir:+ Show Spoiler +
It doesn't make any sense for a townie to claim that he has reads and not share them before the night ends. If you had died, you never would have gotten to post them, and you would have completely wasted your time and hurt the thread overall. Were you completely unafraid of dying?
Also, you said you would post them before the night ended in your previous post - Hide Spoiler -
On July 29 2012 07:57 goodkarma wrote:
With the day passed, and our first flip, I plan on making a rather lengthy analysis thread on top suspects. I promise to have it before night ends, but don't expect to see it for several hours.
. I don't particularly like that you promised something and didn't deliver.
After reading through the thread again, I still feel the strongest about GK and Obvious. However, I admit I am still super wary of Promethelax, but I don't know if he deserves a lynch yet. My real concern though is that if he is town, Mafia has very, very little reason to NK him at this point even if he doesn't get lynched. In our last game together, the fact that he was so obviously "pro-town" and still alive by the 4th day was really suspicious. I'm pretty torn about what to do regarding him, because if he IS town, mislynching him would hurt us fairly badly.
I will say that his cases in this game, compared to his cases in XIX where he was scum, are 100% better. To use his own terms from the end of XIX: "I liked my pants-on-head retarded connection theories."
There is one similarity from XIX and this game that I will mention that I haven't before. In day 1 on XIX, he pushed a case on another townie really hard, and then after day 1 he virtually quit mentioning it for no reason. Or rather, mentioned it a few times but without any real conviction or pressure. It kind of feels like the same thing he's done to Shady in this game.
I think that the most salient point that Keir brought up in his case against you was your not sharing your reads before the night was over. You responded that: Show nested quote +
It clearly states in the thread that I was following Alan's advice. I was afraid that by posting something wrong and dieing, I would be leading the town into another mislynch. Alan has since then brought up the point that it wasn't that impressions were posted, but rather that the people in his game who were night-killed had tunnel vision and were only pursuing single suspects.
In other words, yes. Not posting my impressions at night was a mistake, and I realize that now.
If I were a town player, + Show Spoiler + I'd feel more worried about getting NKed if I posted something right, not wrong. From Keir's will:+ Show Spoiler +Regarding goodkarma, this is what I had to say and I want it remembered in my absence: I find repeatedly pushing to have lurkers lynched is an anti-town trait. Our goal is to lynch scum. You claim it's impossible to make solid reads on day 1, but without people making reads, our ability to get successful lynches later in the game diminishes. Repeatedly trying to sheep us back onto lurkers and away from active cases is suspicious. Just another re-iteration of Prom's point that lurkers are easier to form cases about, and the risk of a scum slip is lower as a result. I agree. From Shady: Shady never FoS'ed or Voted for you, but he has talked about you. + Show Spoiler +Here's my read on GK:
I'm not really sure why he would zero in on aRyuujin like that. Basically GK's rationale for lynching people is:
Filter people who "appear active" --> Find those who are active but who are light on the content --> Start analyzing and prepping for lynch.
So he filtered 3 people out who appear active:
aRyu
MrMedic
Promethelax
Then he says hmmm aRyu is contributing the least... and then seems to forget about the other two and keep digging on aRyu.
Now aRyu obviously doesn't do town any favors by making his defense consist of haikus, but the shift by GK to just focusing on aRyu was a little off to me.
His shift Golbat was well-timed and well-explained, so nothing can be really inferred from that.
I'm not suspicious of GK right now, but I am a little puzzled by why he would drop MrMedic and Promethelax so quickly from his list of suspicious inactives, given that MrMedic hasn't voted and Promethelax seems to space his posts 14 hours apart and ignored the giant debate on Mordanis/Golbat entirely.
This a third player who suspects that GK's play is essentially focused on the easy targets, as well as continuing to tunnel them after they have defended themselves. @GoodKarma Your posts are big on encouraging others to post cases and contribute, but your filter is lacking in both regards. Prove me wrong! ##Vote GoodKarma
So I finish this with an
##UNVOTE
and a
##VOTE Zorkmid
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On August 03 2012 11:32 Obvious.660 wrote:
It's too late into the game to have votes all over the place. Majority is now 5!
Almost clicked edit, shit.
This is incorrect. 13 people total. 3 dead. 10 people = majority of 6. My apologies for the misinformation.
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I'm willing to get behind the Mordanis vote (Shady Sands' vote candidate) to secure a lynch, as I'm hoping he's not going to change it at this point. Probably should switch now, tomorrow is 12 hours on my feet in the heat and I'm out the door as soon as I wake up and get ready. I'll try to check in to see what's up in 8 hours or so but honestly, probably won't get the chance until ~24 hours from now. Good luck, friends.
##UNVOTE
##VOTE Mordanis
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On August 03 2012 15:10 Obvious.660 wrote:I'm willing to get behind the Mordanis vote ( Shady Sands' vote candidate) to secure a lynch, as I'm hoping he's not going to change it at this point. Probably should switch now, tomorrow is 12 hours on my feet in the heat and I'm out the door as soon as I wake up and get ready. I'll try to check in to see what's up in 8 hours or so but honestly, probably won't get the chance until ~24 hours from now. Good luck, friends. ##UNVOTE
##VOTE Mordanis
Okay. Here it is. I can't in good conscience trust Shady Sands implicitly. He's been wrong about 1-Golbat. 2-Promethelax and quite possibly he's now wrong about 3-Mordanis (maybe 4th will be Obvious?).
We also can't trust GoodKarma at his word for voting with Shady Sands. If we could have, he would have switched already.
So, fuck it. I'm going back on this vote I just posted and putting it to Zorkmid. I didn't spend 2 hours on my post only to piss it away because some clown told me otherwise.
I broke my own rule.
WE VOTE FOR SCUM HERE.
I've got to put my vote back on Zorkmid or I won't sleep tonight.
##UNVOTE
##VOTE Zorkmid
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On August 03 2012 16:23 Ange777 wrote:
Ok, I just got up and quickly skimmed through and I really can't believe that people are not voting for Zork .... I can only urge you to go back and read my case against him and his defense against it!
I don't trust you, either.
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Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep.
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EPT
