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yo guys I can't play with Erandorr anymore, he's too fucking bad.
Just lynch me.
##unvote
##vote wherebugsgo
I'm not even kidding, this is a waste of my time. I know I have said that it's a priority for townies to establish their innocence d1 and all that. However, if you actually agree with him that I am scum then there is no way I will be relieved of suspicion at any point in this game. If I catch scum, you will say I bussed them because I am good at scum. If I don't catch scum, then I will be lynched for not catching scum.
Just kill me now and get it over with so that we're all happier for it.
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On August 04 2012 20:42 Toadesstern wrote:
It's kinda hard to fogure out what you're talking about when talking about Erandorr all the time and him being stupid without knowing what you're talkinga bout.
Just saying.
in PMs.
also, think about this:
Erandor's entire case against me hinges on me publicly outting mafia masons (as a scum tactic.)
If I were scum and I knew VE and Erandorr were town masons why wouldn't I just privately tell my team instead of posting to the thread?
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On August 04 2012 20:50 strongandbig wrote:
oh yeah and the answer to your bolded question at the end of your last post is:
1. because VE is good enough to breadcrumb who he masons, and you publicly announcing it gives you cover to kill him without revealing that you're scum. (ie, if you just killed him we would look through his filter, find his breadcrumb, and kill you.)
2. For the same reason you want us to be talking about grush and killing him for his first post not being good: to leave town in a state of disorganized confusion.
1. I could out him as my buddy after I killed him if I was scum. In fact that's what any townie would do in the case that the guy who masoned him died. It's completely indistinguishable regardless of alignment.
Your argument falls apart when you realize that Occam's Razor favors my side over yours. Your argument is convoluted as shit. It involves breadcrumbs when it doesn't need to. If you have to resort to that kind of argument then clearly you're stretching.
2. Killing grush doesn't disorganize town, it gets rid of some guy who's going to do nothing but troll anyway. Since his mafia meta is to troll, clearly you kill two birds with one stone.
On August 04 2012 20:48 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 19:56 wherebugsgo wrote:On August 04 2012 18:51 strongandbig wrote:man bugs you can do better than this. what, did you forget that VE and I were in wheel of fortune too? Ace's Scum 101: get town to lynch people for being bad rather than for being scum. I mean, I may be bad but I'm not stupid. On August 04 2012 17:47 wherebugsgo wrote:
also no, obviously I think all the other lynch candidates are inferior.
Why should we resort to trusting a vig to shoot grush? How do we even know if we have a vig? This sort of stuff really pisses me off, because it delays the inevitable. On August 04 2012 09:00 wherebugsgo wrote:
Your basic assumption that outing masons in this game is antitown is flawed. I already pointed that out when...oh, I dunno, I called you bad several times for thinking it.
If you out masons then you pressure them. Zephirdd was 100% correct on why I did it (and if he's scum that was a pretty brilliant play by him). The goal is to distinguish the town masons from the scum masons via their handing of the pressure.
Also it has the side effect of scaring mafia masons into potentially not using their roles if they fear they will instantly be outted and put in a small pool of players for scrutiny. Playing like Ace only works when you're Ace and always play like Ace. On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless)
Town wbg would realize that this logic is terrible. Town wbg wouldn't give multiple different explanations for outing masons on day 1 without discussing it with them and without participating with the town discussion of whether masons should claim. (for reference, those explanations were "because VE and I are good and this way medics might medic us", and "to pressure the masons") Town wbg wouldn't try to lead a lynch on a bad player just for being bad, without making a case, etc. This isn't town wbg. ##vote: wherebugsgo Number 1: I did not give multiple explanations for outting the masons. I gave one. I don't see how you asserting that I gave multiple explanations is an indication that I did. Yeah you did. First you said it was so mafia would have to wifom over whether to shoot you and VE, then you said it was to pressure VE.
These aren't two different explanations. It's ONE explanation with THREE parts (one which you missed, btw.) It would be suspicious if I went back and said "no that's not what I meant, I meant THIS" because then I would be flip flopping. Having multiple reasons for something being good is simply an indication of it being...well, good. You can argue semantics but from a scumhunting perspective it only matters if your target changed his explanation. If the explanation hasn't changed then there's nothing wrong.
So, for clarity's sake (in other words, for you jubjubs
1. Outting the masons pressures them. My number one goal was to distinguish town and scum masons. Pressuring them is the fastest way to do that.
2. If the mason is indeed town then it gives medics a good target to protect (particularly VE if he is town; he can play well as town, although as of late I think he's been sucking) which means mafia are wary of shooting them. They can take a chance of doublestack, both bad for them.
3. Lastly if the mason is town then it discourages mafia masons from using their power in fear of being publicly outted and scrutinized among a small pool of players. Sucks to be in the spotlight as scum.
On August 04 2012 20:48 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 20:48 strongandbig wrote:On August 04 2012 18:51 strongandbig wrote:man bugs you can do better than this. what, did you forget that VE and I were in wheel of fortune too? Ace's Scum 101: get town to lynch people for being bad rather than for being scum. I mean, I may be bad but I'm not stupid. On August 04 2012 17:47 wherebugsgo wrote:
also no, obviously I think all the other lynch candidates are inferior.
Why should we resort to trusting a vig to shoot grush? How do we even know if we have a vig? This sort of stuff really pisses me off, because it delays the inevitable. On August 04 2012 09:00 wherebugsgo wrote:
Your basic assumption that outing masons in this game is antitown is flawed. I already pointed that out when...oh, I dunno, I called you bad several times for thinking it.
If you out masons then you pressure them. Zephirdd was 100% correct on why I did it (and if he's scum that was a pretty brilliant play by him). The goal is to distinguish the town masons from the scum masons via their handing of the pressure.
Also it has the side effect of scaring mafia masons into potentially not using their roles if they fear they will instantly be outted and put in a small pool of players for scrutiny. Playing like Ace only works when you're Ace and always play like Ace. On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless)
Town wbg would realize that this logic is terrible. Town wbg wouldn't give multiple different explanations for outing masons on day 1 without discussing it with them and without participating with the town discussion of whether masons should claim. (for reference, those explanations were "because VE and I are good and this way medics might medic us", and "to pressure the masons") Town wbg wouldn't try to lead a lynch on a bad player just for being bad, without making a case, etc. This isn't town wbg. ##vote: wherebugsgo Third, how is being a mason not being alignment indicative (a fucking fact of the setup) "terrible logic"? That's not the part that's wrong. The part that's wrong is "therefore outting a mason is rather worthless."
This is probably just you not understanding what I was saying because of my carelessness with the sentence.
Possessing the role of mason in this game says nothing about your alignment. Therefore, if I out someone as a mason it doesn't tell anyone anything about whether they are town or mafia (therefore the act itself is worthless in terms of determining their alignment.)
What is important, though, is their reaction to the pressure.
On August 04 2012 20:50 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 20:44 wherebugsgo wrote:On August 04 2012 20:42 Toadesstern wrote:
It's kinda hard to fogure out what you're talking about when talking about Erandorr all the time and him being stupid without knowing what you're talkinga bout.
Just saying. in PMs. also, think about this: Erandor's entire case against me hinges on me publicly outting mafia masons (as a scum tactic.) If I were scum and I knew VE and Erandorr were town masons why wouldn't I just privately tell my team instead of posting to the thread? Erandorr's case has jack shit to do with why I think you're scum. jackshit.
That's okay, since your thought process is just as bad and wrong as his.
Yeah well fuck you very much too. Seriously after how pissed you got at RoL for trolling bureaucracy mafia, and now you're trying to get us to think you're a self-voting pissed townie? I don't buy it. (also playing against wincon etcetera.)
Given how much you want to lynch me, then you should welcome the help.
No matter what I do, you're going to call me scum. That's a given, because you're using the worst logic I've ever seen to call me scum, and Erandorr in particular won't stop tunneling me. Thus, given my reputation as a scum player (in particular) I will always be a lynch candidate.
Is it playing against my wincondition? No, actually. If I'm always going to be a lynch candidate and if my lynch is going to take up all the discussion space then it's actually BENEFICIAL to town to kill me right here, right now. Why? Because then you can stop wasting time and lose hunt actual scum faster. Then you can also confirm me and my thoughts. Which, unlike yours, aren't terrible.
For the record both grush and prplhz are 95% scum to me.
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On August 04 2012 21:00 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 20:44 wherebugsgo wrote:On August 04 2012 20:42 Toadesstern wrote:
It's kinda hard to fogure out what you're talking about when talking about Erandorr all the time and him being stupid without knowing what you're talkinga bout.
Just saying. in PMs. also, think about this: Erandor's entire case against me hinges on me publicly outting mafia masons (as a scum tactic.) If I were scum and I knew VE and Erandorr were town masons why wouldn't I just privately tell my team instead of posting to the thread? because outing masons, no matter of alignment will make you a topic in the discussion. You're not the guy who's scared of being in the light as mafia at all. You want to be in the light and manipulate people. Outing both will probably be considered a bold move by most people who don't know you that well. Looking at the playerfield and the fact that mafia has 2KP while there are only VERY few people in this game who I'd consider to be vets I'd say it looks like a pretty good strategy for mafia and on top of that something mafia-Bugs would like to do. Especially if there was talk about wether or not we should claim being masoned. At the same time I don't think Town-WBG would do that. Your move did not bring VE in the spotlight, neither did it bring Eran in the spotlight. Yeah Eran is a topic right now but that's because you and him are having a pissing contest. The only one being in the spotlight because of your claim are you. I know how much you hate it when I do stuff like that as town and you tell me to shut up every time I do something like that. Now you're doing the same thing. I don't think Town-WBG would like something like that AT ALL.
I'm in the spotlight because Erandor is bad at this game. It's not because I wanted to be.
I wanted to make my reads in peace but Erandorr decided to bring all the baddies out to call me scum. So, I'm forced to defend myself.
If I lurk away I get lynched. If I defend myself I get lynched.
Why? Because of fucking confirmation bias.
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No, go fuck yourselves, all of you who think I'm scum. You're suffering from the worst case of confirmation bias I've ever seen. I've already shown how no matter what I'll do, you'll call me scum for it, when everything I've done has a 100% valid PROTOWN explanation.
In fact it's so rampant that all three of you are using town traits to call me scum. That's almost the definition of confirmation bias. You think I'm scum, so even things that should normally indicate town to you somehow magically indicate that I am scum. Things like the mason outting, the multifaceted explanation, the fact that I have a stronger read on grush than prplhz, the spotlight argument (here's a revelation: I'm not omniscient nor clairvoyant): ALL of these arguments point to me being town. Yet, the three of you have used these arguments to call me scum.
Just kill me now so that I can be confirmed and so I don't have to waste my time anymore. I've had enough and quite honestly I'm very very close to just getting myself modkilled and taking a ban.
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How the flying fuck am I trolling?
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Also you clearly fail at reading comprehension. Everything I said there is still true.
I'm voting myself to get myself killed, not try to convince any of you that I am town. I amposting because I'm raging at how bad these arguments are. Me voting myself indeed says nothing about my alignment. However there already exist dozens of things that only say "WBG IS FUCKING TOWN".
If I actually die though the person who benefits the most is me. Town will benefit if they stop listening to these idiots when I'm gone and scum will benefit if town continues to be retarded.
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I am thoroughly pissed off because there is literally no reason to lynch me, and because Erandor started tunneling for a really really bad reason (and clearly had no intention of stopping).
I'm at a pretty low bullshit tolerance right now, which is why I raged at him so fucking hard in the PMs. He kept saying mr not coming on skype was an indication of me being scum. I explained it has nothing to do with the game (I've just been busy) so when I came home from lab (this log began at 3 am last night for me) I got on skype to rage at him for being bad in thinking I am scum.
I half tried reasoning with him but even in that you can tell he has no interest in thinking I am town. There is no convincing him, therefore I wasted my time.
Also I didn't fully mean everything I said. Not everyone in the game is awful. I don't actually think VE is awful, but this case is definitely terrible. SlOosh is probably the only player who has anything close to a legitimate reason (besides me voting myself, that's me forcing you to kill me)
So, just kill me.
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Also the people who think I willingly brought attention to myself are funny. I didn't fully think of the repercussions when I outted the masons in terms of thread presence but I also didn't account for the fact that many people who have different opinions will consider opposing viewpoints as scummy (because they are incapable of understanding that different does not mean scum)
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Sorry to BC and those players who aren't playing terribly (notably VE slOosh and Zeph) but I actually don't care about being modkilled given that it will stop the stupid discussion about mr being scum.
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Sure, my play has not been the best given the fucktard that won't stop tunneling me for no reason at all.
Normally I'd be completely fine with some idiot tunneling me but the fact that I'm low on patience coupled with other people agreeing with his terrible reasoning is enough to make me want to not play anymore.
Seriously if you think I am scum, when I flip town go read some new player guides. Especially Erandorr, you never do anything in any of the games you sign up for except lurk and complain other people are bad when you are worse than all of them. Then you think so highly of yourself that you are capable of catching me (you aren't) when you don't even know basic scumhunting.
Here's a hint: calling me scum every game is not you being able to catch me regardless of what I flipped in the past. It's just you falling head over heels for confirmation bias because you think results make you good.
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Also I'm not going to ask for replacement now given that it would be completely unfair to tell a replacement to take my place and try to play for me with my actions in place. That's a nightmare situation that no one should be forced to deal with.
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On August 05 2012 05:11 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 05:00 wherebugsgo wrote:
Sure, my play has not been the best given the fucktard that won't stop tunneling me for no reason at all.
Normally I'd be completely fine with some idiot tunneling me but the fact that I'm low on patience coupled with other people agreeing with his terrible reasoning is enough to make me want to not play anymore.
Seriously if you think I am scum, when I flip town go read some new player guides. Especially Erandorr, you never do anything in any of the games you sign up for except lurk and complain other people are bad when you are worse than all of them. Then you think so highly of yourself that you are capable of catching me (you aren't) when you don't even know basic scumhunting.
Here's a hint: calling me scum every game is not you being able to catch me regardless of what I flipped in the past. It's just you falling head over heels for confirmation bias because you think results make you good. jesus fucking christ get over yourself and get over erandorr. if you are town then: - your decision to out the masons without explaining it was terrible - your explanations for it were terrible - your vote on grush was terrible After that I am not going to sit here and take you calling me bad for thinking you're scum.
You thinking a difference in opinion makes someone scum = terrible. None of the things you mentioned are remotely bad in the first place.
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Oh looks like I'm alive.
I'm going to try and calm down and address this one last time, because the fact that Erandorr is still using it as an argument against me is causing me a brain aneurysm.
He says that masons are not alignment indicative, but at the same time forgets to mention that if VE were town, he just gave scum a free rolecheck on one of the important players.
That was the bulk of Erandorr's argument: that what I did "did not make sense from a town perspective." So, therefore I am scum.
Yet this is a false dichotomy (read: assuming a black and white situation which results in a radical and incorrect conclusion) because even if it doesn't make sense to Erandorr (and I've already expained that it's simply a perspective issue; Erandorr thinks only his opinions are correct, and quite frankly all of his opinions are suboptimal/wrong, hence me calling him bad over and over) it makes even LESS sense from a scum perspective.
He never asks the question, does it make sense for me to do what I did as scum? The answer is no, because if I knew that Eran or VE were town then by definition mafia would already know that they are masons by virtue of me being able to pass the information via scum QT. Therefore outting the masons in thread is completely redundant and actually bad as scum.
What does this tell us? It tells us that Erandorr is tunneling me for something that isn't a scum tell. It may not make sense to him, in which case it's his problem, not mine, since it just means he's incapable of handling different perspectives.
Also with the number of lurkers in this game and given that grush/prpl flipped town, almost anyone can be scum. I feel like scum are very likely to have at least one mason, so it's key we take note who is known to be a mason.
When I have more time I'll be doing some rereading. I imagine SnB and Erandorr are going to continue tunneling me because they're incapable of understanding how they are wrong, but I suppose I just have to live with that.
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Also if it hasn't been obvious already I'm actually under a lot more work and time pressures than I considered earlier.
I can't be as active as I am normally but at the very least I'm more active than most of the players in the game. I won't be staying to my normal standards.
If you think I am scum go ahead and try to kill me. However at this point I'm going to stop bothering to defend myself as it's a huge waste of my time. Instead I'm going to try to scumhunt (I didn't do that earlier since I was distracted by Erandorr)
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Upon reading xsebt's posts he says a lot of nothing and he isn't consistent in his accusations. He makes it seem as if (as solstice just pointed out) that Toad would be a top candidate if prpl flipped town but he's done nothing to indicate that he's still willing to kill Toad.
In addition his argument against prplhz seemed very forced. It was basically "prplhz is fucking up" which is not a reason to call someone scum. The bandwagon was strong (and granted my own read was wrong) but the fact that xsebt's only thoughts on d1 had to do with the two bandwagons makes it seem as if he had no actual opinions of his own, particularly when the comments he actually did make are incredibly weak.
Unless something changes drastically my vote is on Xsebt today.
##vote Xsebt
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I forgot to mention that the most suspicious part is that he indicated a willingness to push suspicion onto Toad in the case that the guy he himself was voting(prplhz) flipped town. That's essentially skirting responsibility for the lynch in the case it goes bad
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VE areyou satisfied with town's activity?
Who do you think is scum, since prpl/grush were not?
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I am completely unsure what to think of VE. At times I have had town reads on him (given the fact that he was asking for reads and he was making sense, to his response to Erandorr) but then other times I've had scumreads, albeit for some reasons you could pin on me as well (for example, apathy to the activity level). Usually when activity is low you see VE scrambling for people to post but I don't see it much here. I also can't tell whether his logic is making sense because he's town or because he's trying to blend in.
I agree with his reasons for pressuring Erandorr. However Erandorr is special because as scum he's super lazy. At this point he's giving up unless I die so it may truly be that he is scum, but I find the much more likely explanation to be that Erandorr is town and just wrong. I don't think as scum he'd push the lynch so ridiculously hard especially if his reasons are all terrible. (and at this point he just seems too stubborn to admit it)
So, no idea really how to read VE: I've never been good at reading him. Erandorr I definitely think is town.
Toad is in the same boat as VE for me. I'm not good at reading him.
I still think Xsebt is scum based on the tone of his posts (and he disappeared after I voted him) but with no pressure my read on him hasn't developed.
Also based on my read throughs it's really strange how much snb buddies Erandorr. Also note how quickly the VE wagon built up: if he flips town then we should strongly consider examining the players who were on both wagons, and if he flips scum we should consider a bus possibility. (that is, if he ends up dying). I'd rather switch the vote to someone else, though, i'm not about to vote VE.
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EPT
