EPTI Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia - Page 11
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak. Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 12 2012 04:17 NoSmurfHere wrote: It's loosely based on this: Click for C9++ Wiki page However many of the roll chances have been modified to reflect the strength of town usage of power roles on TL being greater than on mafiascum. I.E, the chances for vigilante and mason in particular are drastically reduced while the chance for roleblocker is increased. Also the mafia determiner has been changed to include framers and reduces the possibility of a 2 man scumteam (though that is still possible) At some point if I am convinced that my determiner is balanced I will release it. However I've been tweaking it game to game and examining all the setups that it generates. Luckily I haven't had to throw one out yet so chances are strong that almost any version of the randomizer I've used is reasonably balanced. I just want to find the most balanced one for use on TL. and also this sorry, should have consolidated my last couple of posts | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
his question about how many scum there are read to me as a mini-gambit. Since it is variable, only scum are going to know the exact number. the second post is him being excited about the ability to use PMs. maybe gonzaw is clever, but is he ballsy? because it's pretty ballsy as scum to be pro-active about getting a PM circle going, especially considering how young the game was at the time. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On July 12 2012 23:47 s0Lstice wrote: Mattchew- his question about how many scum there are read to me as a mini-gambit. Since it is variable, only scum are going to know the exact number. the second post is him being excited about the ability to use PMs. maybe gonzaw is clever, but is he ballsy? because it's pretty ballsy as scum to be pro-active about getting a PM circle going, especially considering how young the game was at the time. lol, so wouldnt scum be more aware of the number of scum and feel the need to say they don't know why would scum not be excited to use PMs with townies. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
In a game full of TL Mafia's best players he led the PM "town circle" as scum in Liar Mafia | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
anyhoo I think it's kind of hilarious that literally everyone commented on it. I mean speaking of scum blending in "I agree with everyone else that talis' plan isn't good" from like ten people. And the only one who didn't go "oh that's shit" was gonzaw. Which to be honest makes me lean town on him - he comes out with three names right off the bat for a decent reason at least for that early in the game. I feel a scum player would have been more cautious. Marv shitting on the plan was fairly predictable. I read his "let's lynch talis" for it though as more out of pique than as part of a cunning scum plan though. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
While you're here, any early suspicions, given your eagerness to get people to post their thoughts? | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote: you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever. anyhoo I think it's kind of hilarious that literally everyone commented on it. I mean speaking of scum blending in "I agree with everyone else that talis' plan isn't good" from like ten people. And the only one who didn't go "oh that's shit" was gonzaw. Which to be honest makes me lean town on him - he comes out with three names right off the bat for a decent reason at least for that early in the game. I feel a scum player would have been more cautious. Marv shitting on the plan was fairly predictable. I read his "let's lynch talis" for it though as more out of pique than as part of a cunning scum plan though. hey what about me! | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
@matt what about you? You shit on it just like everyone else. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit this is more reasoning then everyone else gave as to why its bad, its just not in long-winded gonzaw essay style | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
what Marv said about his play in Liar though was news to me. I'll have to have a look-see. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:14 talismania wrote: @marv I'm putting together a compendium of the reaction posts so I can look at them altogether. From skimming this morning from where I left off yesterday nothing really stuck out. Actually that's a lie - first I thought austin's response was scummy because it just aped what you and matt had said. But then like literally all these other players I've never played with said the exact same thing as he did with similar looking/composed posts. @matt what about you? You shit on it just like everyone else. that's the problem when a plan is so obviously bad... everyone wants to shit on it, so it's hard to gauge varied reactions when they're bound to all be similar | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler + marvellosity On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzaw On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. Mattchew On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solstice On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Keirathi On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBear On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote: This is silly. This isn't going to happen and would just waste time. On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbig On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote: People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzaw talismania Yo so this isn't true at all. I've been very clear from the beginning that I think the roleblocker should not use their power unless they have a clear shot with it or the situation demands it. Essentially, don't use it N1 or N2, then proceed cautiously. | ||
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