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On July 18 2012 05:58 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:50 austinmcc wrote:
We can. I don't want to. Syllo hasn't made up a ridiculous role (I know some people don't agree, I still see the role as ridiculous). The main reason I'm pushing Sandro is because his role is ridiculous, and when offered a chance to reveal it (maybe it turns out his role is 1-shot, then it becomes believable and doesn't cripple mafia's only source of information once he reveals), he doesn't, despite thinking he's going to get shot.
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up. This post in retarded as fuck I'm sorry. Why wouldn't I as town opt to cripple mafia's only source having a role capable of doing so or not. Why would I opt to give mafia certainty instead of doubt?
The role itself already cripples mafia. You can plant false messages. You can direct their targets. It's not a choice between giving mafia certainty and giving mafia doubt. Here's the super important distinction. It's actually a choice between giving mafia certainty that they shouldn't have (they are certain any directions are coming from scumbuddies, when in fact they are being directed by a townie) vs. giving mafia doubt. Insert some philosophical line about the enemy you don't see being more dangerous than the enemy you do see.
If I were mafia why would I not BS claim fully? Why not fully claim as any alignment? You think you're going to get shot.
You realize that even if I'm mafia I'm fucking my own team by doing this, since if I have this power as a minion only one person on the mafia team knows that I'm mafia as well. Why would you actually have this power if you're mafia? I'm not claiming you have this power and are mafia, I'm claiming you're mafia and have made it up.
If you can explain me how I profit as mafia by doing what I did and how it is more likely for me to be mafia then town, you are free to keep yapping about your insane conspiracy theory. However if you insist on trying to force the situation into your own mold of reality I must conclude you have an agenda behind your posts. What's mafia's main advantage in this game? Large numbers. What's mafia's main disadvantage this game? Less information, can't confirm each other.
BOTH of these lead to it being more likely mafia will kill each other. Accidentally, or on purpose (the cost of bussing a member of a 9-man team is less than the cost of bussing a member of a 3 or 6-man team). Since you don't know each other's identities, you don't get much town cred from just voting a guy. But making up a role to trick scum into outing themselves, now there's some town cred. Normal bussing = less cred this game. So you've just figured out a creative way to bus to get yourself cred.
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Okay, sorry. Had to finish up some stuff for Can't Believe, so I haven't been around an hour. Took a glance, see I'm still a focus. So here's my response based on what was flying around an hour ago. Spoilering my defense/response, because if you absolutely aren't going to believe me at this stage, then I don't want to take up room, already done that enough in a thread that's way oversized.
+ Show Spoiler +(1)Y'all be trippin'. (2) Marv is correct about this, and Bugs is slightly off: I have posted conspiracy theory crap before, in LV, as town. If you want specific posts, you can check out whatever pages bugs pointed you to. If you want choice posts, look at - This, This, This. There's a sample. I pushed that theory hard enough that I was "tinfoil hat guy" for a while. Toad called me that, a few players called me that at the start of LVI I believe. When I was confirmed wrong, I dropped it hard. Once it wasn't possible, done. If Kurumi flips green, I drop this idea here. I'll even include a pic like this one - Better than BH's pics. (3) Marv is absolutely wrong about me not doing this as scum. I would probably try and get my scumbuddies to pull ridiculous plans, because those seem to win if you pull them off, and they seem like they'd be fun. This, however, is not that. (4) I haven't played enough games for this to be legit, and it shouldn't convince anyway. But I'm throwing it out here anyway. Games where I've had a weird suspicion early on, they've been good. I found Forumite odd in LV, when other people had him really town - Here. He flipped third party assassin, so not scum. I found talismania odd in Can't Believe, where I just got shot. I don't want to own up to making the posts where I called him scum, so you can go get those yourself. He flipped scum. My two weird ass early suspicions have been correct. NOBODY went "oh man, nice case on forumite." NOBODY went "oh man, nice case on talismania." But they were both off, and I was correct, despite getting votes and being called scummy for suspecting forumite (and playing retardedly D1 in Can't Believe) (5) Sloosh brings up a good point. I'm getting attacked, by some, for not pointing out a decent enough reason for scummy Sandro to do what I say he's doing. Fair enough. All I can say is that it was for cred, that's the best scummy motive I have from Sandro. Me wanting to find out sandro's role is a good reason for me to ask him to claim. Me wanting to find out sandro's role is NOT a good reason for the rest of the day. If I don't get a role, if I don't get any support, I'd back off of it. (6) Specific to Marv. I haven't done much hunting. I've been busy with Can't Believe. Anyone here can go check my posts. Anyone here can see that I flipped mason, which means not only was I posting in thread, but I was active with my mason buddy. That means I was pulling MORE than a normal game of activity, keeping active in 2 threads for 1 game, while this game filled up like 40 pages. Note what I HAVE done this game though: - When Palmar throws out the RL idea, I've seen this before. I go grab the specific post where he discusses why he throws out RL, bring it to thread's attention. In my mind, I'm contributing by doing this, because town can stop discussing the RL, which Palmar knows is bogus, and which Palmar has told some townies in this game is bogus.
- I contribute this Sandro theory. You guys may think it's balls. You may think it's the most ridiculous thing you've heard. But I do contribute, instead of sitting on my ass. I could have given a half-assed reason for voting BH or syllogism. I wouldn't have stuck out at all, lots of players have done that. There was no reason for me, as scum, in a game where you really don't want to stick your neck out as scum (because you don't have the scumbuddy support of a normal game), to not just sheep a case on BH or syllogism. They were out there. I'm newer and less well known. Nobody would have thought twice.
I haven't scumhunted a ton. But I've presented sandro which you don't agree with, and GGQ, which some people do. While that's not too much, realize that I've basically made three contributions - the Palmar RL post, the sandro theory, a dinky post on GGQ. Even with the GGQ post being dinky, that's more than plenty of players have done this game. If you want to hunt non-scumhunters, go after someone who's done less than I have. I was busy with another game's deadline yesterday AND being a mason in that game. Still busy in that game, mason QT, and work today. I've contributed where I thought I could. Was waiting around to see Can't Believe's flip, and then wanted to stay and post that. Now that I'm done with those two things, I'm headed home. Gonna rest a bit and eat, will return in an hour and a half or so. If people are still on my jock, I'll keep responding. But you guys should knock it off with voting me.
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On July 18 2012 09:13 austinmcc wrote:Votes, which should be good as of Prob's 9:03 vote, and nothing posted since then. Don't take em as gospel though. + Show Spoiler +
Chezinu (0)
Blazinghand
Meapak_Ziphh (4)
wherebugsgo
Blazinghand
Chezinu
Kurumi
mattchew
kurumi
palmar
VisceraEyes
Kurumi (0)
marvellosity
sandroba
syllogism
marvellosity
wherebugsgo
HiroPro
supersoft
risk.nuke
Katina
Foolishness
Blazinghand
Palmar
Blazinghand (7)
sandroba
HiroPro
GGQ
HiroPro
wherebugsgo
Chezinu
rastaban
slOosh
Katina
marvellosity
syllogism (1)
Blazinghand
Palmar
Foolishness
Blazinghand
gonzaw
Probulous
Foolishness
GGQ (0)
Kurumi
Palmar (0)
Katina
Katina (1)
Mattchew
blazinghand
layabout (0)
wherebugsgo
Blazinghand
HiroPro (0)
marvellosity
Sandroba (1)
austinmcc
austinmcc (7)
supersoft
wherebugsgo
Bill Murray
blazinghand
sandroba
syllogism
risk.nuke
gonzaw
Layabout (0)
VisceraEyes
Foolishness (0)
gonzaw
Gonzaw (1)
Probulous
No-Lynch (0)
Kurumi
Nonvoters (5)
layabout
Meapak_Ziphh
Q-bert-Z
RebirthOfLeGenD
Zealos
Some of the tags are messed up. Some people have voted me in the main thread, but not the voting thread. I think zealos and layabout may have done that?
Before you get on my case about counting votes. It's way easier than defending oneself. It's also helpful to me, because I'm sitting here kind of interested in how many votes I have and WHO is voting for me.
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I'd prefer to vote for GGQ (or Sandro), but those aren't lynch options. Gonzaw looks like the candidate on the block now, and I'm okay with a gonzaw vote
On July 18 2012 04:17 gonzaw wrote:
@Palmar: Could you post why you think me, GGQ and others are scum? I agree about syllo and Foo, but that's not news at all.
...
I haven't read MZ, GGQ, austin, and other's but I will after I come home in a few hours. Besides the other stuff that's been mentioned, here's Gonzaw giving some specific filters that he's going to read.
Gonzaw comes back from reading those with:
On July 18 2012 08:31 gonzaw wrote:
About austin:
I don't get why he's obsessing so much with sandro's role. I'd understand having that first suspicion if he actually believed something was wrong (like in that post I mentioned), but he spent posts and posts and posts dealing with sandro's claim and ability and it clogged up the thread too much.
I don't get why he'd do that as town, specially since his doubts of sandro's claim were dealt with by other people, he didn't need to keep cluttering things up with it.
There are little things that don't make me confident in him being scum, like some of the confidence he seems to have in his posts, and the fact that he "overposts" like this as town.
I'm not that confident in lynching him, but I think he has more chances of flipping scum than BH.
##Unvote: Foolishness
##Vote: austin
I don't see MZ being scum after skimming his filter.
Damn I don't have much time for this, this game is huge :/
After I come back from the gym I'll post more thoroughly
So he skimmed MZ, finds him townie. Looked at my filter, had mixed feelings, but still voted me. It feels a little off to me that he doesn't mention GGQ, the third player he was going to look at.
If GGQ is such an easy target, why not add GGQ? Why not mention you found him scummy? Does Gonzaw have feelings so mixed on GGQ that he looks better than me? That's a little hard for me to believe. I'm know I'm a topic of conversation at this point, but he still finds time to mention that he read MZ and give his read on MZ. Sort of makes it seem like he didn't read.
It ain't much, but it's something that stuck out to me beyond me just saying "I like non-austin targets, sheeping dat vote"
##vote: Gonzaw
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I'll give you a hint. It's in my filter.
If kurumi flips green, I 100% drop it. If kurumi flips red, I'll continue to think that Sandro's power doesn't exist, that it's a fakeclaim, and that he's scum. I won't be as vocal about it for a while, because clearly that isn't going anywhere.
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If kurumi flips green, then kurumi had no reason to lie about receiving a message. The power exists in some form.
If kurumi flips red, then either some form of this power exists, or it doesn't and this is what a bus looks like in this game.
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I guess if nothing else this shows that I seriously believe what I'm saying?
My issue is mainly that I don't think such a role exists in this game. If kurumi flips green, whether he was stupid for going along with the message or not (and I think not is out, because he would have told us if the message were something different), the message still CAME to him. My problem is that the power to send messages anonymously to anyone in this game doesn't feel right. The green flip would show that that power exists. My problems with sandro's alignment stem from not thinking the power exists and that it's a fakeclaim.
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60 pages of D1 and we take up another half a page with discussion about mattchew's hypothetical genie wish...
GGQ still looks bad to me. He returns with:On July 18 2012 11:24 GGQ wrote:
Why did I vote BH without mentioning even a single word about him? To see what would happen, of course!
Most people's responses were good; just asking me why or making little noises of disgust. The only one who tried to construe it as scummy was Austin the squirming mafia.
Why did I vote BH at all? Because he was being active and throwing his vote around without doing anything and seemed very concerned with his own activity, as if it was justifying something. I believed and still believe he is scum.
I get very bad vibes from HiroPro. His posts all feel like he's just putting in his time.
There's a bunch of other possible mafias in my mind, but another day another noose.
The case on gonzaw feels weaker than the one on austin to me. I prefer to lynch BH or austinmcc, but I'll switch before deadline if it's necessary to get a lynch.
GGQ voted BH 32 hours before this post. He explains his naked vote by saying he wanted "to see what would happen." Yet he waits 32 hours, until right before a lynch, to tell us what he learned, what wisdom he gained in those 32 hours. And all we get is that "most people's responses were good." That means some responses WEREN'T good. He doesn't say who gave those no-good responses (except me).
Everything else he posted in his recent post is bland. HiroPro gives bad vibes. There are other possible mafia in his mind (seriously? We know there are NINE mafia. There better be other possible mafia in his mind). Case on gonzaw is weaker, but again, no real specifics.
I also still feel like, given that he's played scum in both previous sleeper cell games, he's being way too lurky and passive, when he could be a serious asset to town given that he knows better than anyone here how scum may act this game. The one comment about how it's easier to come out strong on day 1 is all that he's given us.
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Anyone else really liking this idea, or some form of it?
On July 19 2012 02:22 VisceraEyes wrote:
We should have had 1) our target and 2) his/her counterwagon decided at least 12 hours before deadline...but it's D1 and we didn't, so there you have it.
For all the talk about how votes were swapped/the deadline sucked/no lynches suck, I think this was really the only suggestion that proposed a decent way of dealing with those problems. It's not perfect, but I feel like it's certainly better than all the swapping last night, and despite Foolishness's admonitions about vote swapping leading to no-lynches, we've got so many different reads being thrown around that the thread is clogged with options and I don't really see us doing a great job consolidating through that early on future days.
Maybe the deadline change helps with a few players, but as long as we enforce it, does anyone think that shaving off...maybe even 8 hours from the day cycle is going to lead us to a much worse lynch than a full 48 hours' discussion?
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On July 19 2012 06:24 HiroPro wrote:
VE/austin, please read pages 73-74 and tell me what you think of Zealos. This one is just silly. You're asking me what I think about a guy who replaced in, made roughly one post wherein he voted for the guy that "seemed to have a decent case on him"/"seemed most scummy recently," never voted in the votethread, never returned during the day, and, upon returning, has called kurumi an "influential town player."
Nobody can look at that and go - #1 town read!
If he goes with his stated plan:On July 19 2012 05:26 Zealos wrote:
I'll just go ahead and vote for BH at the start of day2 then leave you guys to it. bb,
then that's just pretty terrible and I'd love to see him lynched or shot.
But tbh, all his scumminess seems to come from doing absolutely nothing. Like, less than minimal effort. Not posting. Not reading the thread. Not voting. That's a LOT of attention to call to oneself, to not vote. So even those his lack of contribution is scummy, I'd rather he's not up for lynch this cycle. We've already got scum in Kurumi, who we thought would die so didn't lynch yesterday, so there's 1 kill. I still think GGQ looks incredibly scummy, and i haven't seen anyone (there may have been one post in which someone just said "GGQ always plays like this") defend GGQ or call him town. So I don't see why that isn't kill #2. Just because he's "obvious" or "easy to build a case on," doesn't mean we shouldn't lynch him...
That leaves Zealos, at the very least, third for me. So for now I'll find him scummy, but want to lynch others over him, and see if he actually contributes/reads thread/does anything.
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As to the message that WBG got, clearly we just need to count who uses the most !s. That person sent the message.
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As far as I can tell, it WAS an hour ago.
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On July 20 2012 01:28 marvellosity wrote:
VE what do you make of MZ's case on rastaban, and does it alter your view of MZ at all?
This should go to Mattchew as well. MZ actually helping, or trying to look like he's helping?
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On July 20 2012 06:00 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 05:51 Kurumi wrote:GGQ I am very confident that GGQ is scum. His filter is not even one page long. (Actually 5 in-game posts.) "How can you say anything about the guy then, Kurumi?" Some of you have pointed out that Mafia's biggest objective is to survive. You can do it vanilla style - try to blend in during the discussion. You can do it lurker style - just avoid the fire and appear when everything's a little more silent... There's always false townie style, where you basically try to forget about your role and go with the flow while trying to keep in mind who's good target and who's not. As we've seen so far, being a lurker in this game is a GREAT option. We've been attacking each other like mad. If it wasn't an in-game attack, it was an attack on person her/himself. We've got a good player lurking like mad for no reason. It's already Day 2. If he was really occupied, guess what - he'd get replaced, just like two guys already, but he has no reason to ask for one. When I call him out that he is actively lurking(I am going to count how much it takes you to respond to this GGQ by the way) On July 17 2012 03:36 GGQ wrote:On July 17 2012 03:27 Kurumi wrote:On July 17 2012 03:25 GGQ wrote:On July 16 2012 19:13 Probulous wrote:
So in essence I should have kept that to myself?
I find it highly unlikely that mafia will be pushing strong reads day 1 given the setup. For two reasons, one they may be pushing one of their own, two they will be held accountable. So my thinking was to out to the thread so people are aware of it. Yes mafia are too but all this does is limit their options. How exactly does this help me further my agenda if I am mafia?
My experience playing scum in two Sleeper Cell games tells me that this is the opposite of true. If you aren't burdened by knowledge of your teammates, it's much easier to come out strong on day 1. Why are you active lurking? wtf are you talking about? How does that answer sound to you? It's strict denial. He sees nothing wrong with his play. He feels no guilt. Why would he? There's a post by him in this quote too. He shares... a little of his knowledge... HE HAS PLAYED TWO DAMN SLEEPER CELL GAMES. Everything he has to tell us is that Mafia do whatever they please on Day 1. Solid advice here man. On July 17 2012 03:42 GGQ wrote:On July 17 2012 03:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On July 17 2012 03:27 Mattchew wrote:On July 17 2012 03:21 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On July 17 2012 03:13 Mattchew wrote:On July 17 2012 03:09 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
so mattchew lemme get this right, I'm scummy because I "seems to be trying to look sensible and not shitstorm causing." Umm... duh so basically I'm scum because I'm playing protown? That's some pretty wicked logic there. cause you are playing an easy to fake pro-town without actually doing anything pro-town That's bullshit and you know it lol. you have said the word "chaos" or talked about town stability in almost every post you have made. Did you elect yourself town peacekeeper? Because basically every one of your posts has extremely little to do with actually finding and lynching scum Actually I'm playing smart and waiting until I have a solid case before I go after someone. In contrast, you have your idiotic crusade against katina and that's it. Discussion should be currently centered around Palmar for his inability/refusal to play. BH should be a secondary consideration for his random wild play. And of course I still haven't forgot chez and the smurf, I'm interested to see if they start playing as well. This may come as a shock but it's not always a good idea to shit up the thread with random cases. My lack of a formal "case" is way better than your little spat with Katina. What? Why? What would that accomplish? How would that help us find scum? Palmar does that shit all the time. It's stupid and unhelpful but arguing about it has never changed him before and it won't now. ##vote blazinghand He tries to shift focus off from Palmar. He is defending him telling people that Palmar is just like that. That's what Palmar should've probably said, right? Look at how this post ends "has never changed him before and it won't now" it's a decisive NO. And this BH vote. He did explain it, right? On July 18 2012 11:24 GGQ wrote:
Why did I vote BH without mentioning even a single word about him? To see what would happen, of course!
Most people's responses were good; just asking me why or making little noises of disgust. The only one who tried to construe it as scummy was Austin the squirming mafia.
Why did I vote BH at all? Because he was being active and throwing his vote around without doing anything and seemed very concerned with his own activity, as if it was justifying something. I believed and still believe he is scum.
I get very bad vibes from HiroPro. His posts all feel like he's just putting in his time.
There's a bunch of other possible mafias in my mind, but another day another noose.
The case on gonzaw feels weaker than the one on austin to me. I prefer to lynch BH or austinmcc, but I'll switch before deadline if it's necessary to get a lynch. TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? Sounds like someone doesn't freaking care about the lynch? Wait, he does care, look at the last line! Why would a person with no thread presence try to defend Palmar? GGQ has NEVER said anything about Palmar. Never EVER. If you were searching for a guy trying to survive - here you go. Why would you lurk as Town in this game? With 1KP, Mafia has little power to do anything to stop you from acting. Sure, they might have roleblockers, maybe politicians or anti-nukers, but it's the cases which should win games. Palmar and Bill Murray are playing similar style, where they mostly post one-liners or troll material. Palmar just now started pushing layabout hard (without proper case, just some meta to back it up). GGQ has a lot of knowledge. It is Day 2 and he hasn't shared ANY of it. He is denying us information. No cases made, no activity in the thread, NOTHING. He is trying for his survival. If he comes guns blazing at any point in the game... I think you'll get it that he's scum. I am voting GGQ. ##vote GGQ Surely all these points can be made against me. So what makes him any more scummy than me?
(1) GGQ has played in both sleeper cell games. GGQ has been scum in both sleeper cell games. GGQ has particular knowledge of both similar setups AND how mafia play in similar setups. He has not been vocal at all with any of this information. All we know is that in his experience, it's easy to come out strong D1 as mafia (and, if it does anything for you, then plays the EXACT OPPOSITE of how he says he plays mafia D1). Nothing more.
(2) Your reason for voting me D1 was you were just sheeping town sentiment at the time you looked at thread. GGQ's reasoning for his no-reasoning-in-thread vote on BH was:On July 18 2012 11:24 GGQ wrote:
Why did I vote BH without mentioning even a single word about him? To see what would happen, of course!
Most people's responses were good; just asking me why or making little noises of disgust. The only one who tried to construe it as scummy was Austin the squirming mafia.
He doesn't say who "most people" are that looked good. He doesn't say who didn't look good, except me.
Overall, he's ... more useful? to town because of (1) than you are, but hasn't been giving any effort to help. So that's worse than you. And his reason for his vote D1 was worse than yours. You claim to have basically done no work to place your vote. He claims to have voted for a reason, to get information, then doesn't seem to have any specific information.
(Also because he's been scum in both sleeper cell games. For those that like speculation for vets, GGQ is the most experienced player in this game at playing scum under similar conditions, although he was not cell leader in either one)
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On July 20 2012 06:13 Blazinghand wrote:
austinmcc you still think Zealos is scum though right?
Less scummy than GGQ, but yeah. To me, GGQ is scum, and that read seems unlikely to change. Zealos is scummy, but with a possibility of that read changing? They're entering the game with different experience, and so even though they're both contributing about equally this game, I'm getting slightly different levels of scumread on them.
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On July 06 2012 09:28 Protactinium wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 10:29 VisceraEyes wrote:
Will those at the top of the scum hierarchy know the powers of those at the bottom? They will know what exists, not who has what. That's all we know, I think?
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On July 20 2012 09:27 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 09:15 HiroPro wrote:On July 20 2012 08:57 Probulous wrote:On July 20 2012 08:50 marvellosity wrote:
I would not be surprised. I could easily think of a townie being obstinate and saving their nuke on the basis that Kurumi was going to die anyway. And there's probably other silly reasons too. Well we will know by the end of the day. If there is no nuke sent at Zealos then we have no nuke. This is why I want to know if there are still people who think BH is scum. Either I can explain my logic to them and save them the hassle of tunnelling a likely town, or they can point out to me why I am being stupid, or they are scum. It's a win-win-win. What is your logic? Why would scum need a nuke blocking ability? Kurumi is the only person who had a nuke (assumption but lack of other nuke so far makes me confident on this), he is likely scum from his actions. Ergo, why would mafia need a nuke blocking ability. Bare in mind they only have 6 power roles, one of which is apparently a nuke. So that leaves 5. Giving them a useless role would be really detrimental to them.
Protactinium posted that Kurumi shot a nuke and that RoL shot a nuke. We know they shot nukes. We do not know if anyone else has nukes, but are assuming they do not.
BH has claimed to be able to block a nuke. We do not know if he actually has this power. VE has (fakeclaimed, for funsies?) to be able to block a nuke. We do not know if he actually has this power.
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- Kurumi's PM said to do something, which he did
- Zealos didn't say anything about his PM
The responses are different. Kurumi obeyed a PM when we didn't know anyone but mafia could send messages. Zealos didn't mention his PM, and either hasn't read thread or is pretending not to read thread and know about Sandroba's claim, and either didn't understand that the message sounded like mafia orders or is pretending not to understand what it sounded like.
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On July 21 2012 03:20 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 03:18 austinmcc wrote:
- Kurumi's PM said to do something, which he did
- Zealos didn't say anything about his PM
The responses are different. Kurumi obeyed a PM when we didn't know anyone but mafia could send messages. Zealos didn't mention his PM, and either hasn't read thread or is pretending not to read thread and know about Sandroba's claim, and either didn't understand that the message sounded like mafia orders or is pretending not to understand what it sounded like. the natural response, as a townie, if you received a PM that looked like orders, is to post it to the thread. why would you do anything but that? The only reason you wouldn't is if you were scum and you thought those orders were for you.
So he is either pretending not to understand that the message sounded like mafia orders OR he actually didn't interpret it that way
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EPT
