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Movie Star Mini Mafia! - Page 82
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
The one game that I actually didn't enjoy playing turns out to be my first win  Oh well ![[image loading]](http://youcantrusttess.edublogs.org/files/2011/06/smile-dog-2dbdt8v.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.capetown.travel/uploads/legacy/Happiest_man_alive_thumb.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7HLWr.jpg) Time to change my profile  Will read up on all the insanity that happened since I died. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
This game for me revolved around figuring out Marvel's alignment. Normally I look at other people and try and get a better overall picture of the thread. But here the marvel thing was so dominant I had to take a position on him. I understand VE's position because marvel's reaction still doesn't make sense to me. The only thing that evers comes from not providing clear responses is a shitstorm. @Marvel, can you explain why, when you saw VE was going to tunnel the shit out of you, you didn't clarify your response to Mattchew? To me that is what sealed your fate (for a while). You knew that the only thing that would come out of being opaque would be more mess and yet that is exactly what you did. I get that people were trying to work out VE's alignment. I don't know, I have never been screwed over by a scum VE so maybe I am biased. But we all know he is liable to pressure until he gets an answer and so it is your responsibility to provide it. You can blame VE all you want but that will not prevent this from happening again. Ultimately Marv, all I wanted from you was a post that said clearly "I didn't know how to answer the question so I pushed it back. I don't want this to contiue to shit up the thread so please drop it. I will take a look at my games and give you some thoughts in a little while." and then post something clear. It was your choice NOT to do this that made me think you were scum. slOosh, you were a casualty of the marv/VE/me thing, for that I apologise. I was so focused on marv that I didn't think about other targets. I am not sure if this is the right response or not? If something like that happens, do you try and figure it out or let it be and focus on other stuff? I don't understand what happened at the end of this game. How scum lost is beyond me and rastaban should have just killed town to earn a win. Why did he no-lynch? I didn't enjoy this game, mainly because I played badly. Bugs as always you invest a huge amount of effort into your games and I really appreciate that. Your constant presence in the Obs QT and your post game stuff is worth signing up for. Thank you very much. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Some people in town thought marv was scummy for not answering. Others said they would consider him scummy if he used a meta defense (aka answered). Others said they would be suspicious either way (though not in the same post; they didn't realize the self contradiction). So at this point if you still think the problem is with the way marv handled it, you've missed the point. If marv answered the way you wanted to answer, you might've considered him town, but someone else would consider him scum for the OPPOSITE reason. This is why the question was loaded. The lesson here is to identify the genesis of the problem. Only one player correctly did this, and that was slOosh. He was not part of the marvellosity thing and he correctly attacked Mattchew for the question (though he could have benefited from confidence) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:41 slOosh wrote: Mmm ... maybe I'm a bit rusty and my reading is a bit off. I'll review Snarfs on my own, but it seems like he won't be a lynch candidate today. Right now a lurker lynch is looking very good. Marv and VE regularly have been going at each others throats, and unless it is LI all over again, there is a good chance that they are both town. It's pretty destructive to town atmosphere so scum probably will be lazy / complacent, i.e. we can probably find some scum in that group. I was in LI when I saw the nastiest slugfest in the form of VE & Toad, but I knew that this probably wasn't a repeat since it is a mini and the cost / benefits is pretty high for a mini game to pull off the same stunt. There were too many people lurking / chilling to make me think that it could be one scum planning on going at a slugfest. I suspected maybe one was SK maybe but seriously the way that the discussion was going it was too messy to take out anything worthwhile, which is why I ignored that and went after other stuff. Now the personal take away lesson for me is how to make people listen to what I have to say / making sure my case doesn't get buried as collateral damage of said slugfest. Nothing on your part, I don't think. I liked your posting since you were contributing and stuff, and I guess I got sidetracked somehow when I got null response from you and prplhz and decided to go after you for some reason (maybe subconscious backlash?). e: ... got null response Concerning snarfs from you and prplhz ... | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I think I'm developing a good track record and that might help, but is there anything else I can do? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
If you think you're on to something, you make a post, and it gets buried - don't drop it there. Redirect people back to it, when you're active in the thread and other people are active in the thread tell them, go look at my post and tell me what you think. Much as though in a perfect world it would just take one post on an issue, that's not quite how mafia works. You need to push your points at people if they don't seem to be listening. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:30 slOosh wrote: So where do I get confidence? Wow that is a weird question. My lack of confidence could perhaps be attributed to a pendulum effect from when I was a newbie, when I would tunnel people hard and singlehandedly strongarm mislynches. That's why I kind of asked for opinions and when Prob and prplhz gave me nulls (I think I had townish reads on them at the time) on my Snarfs case I guess I just dropped it, perhaps regardless of the marv/VE kerfuffle. I think I'm developing a good track record and that might help, but is there anything else I can do? Well I think you need to be more forthright about getting answers. You obviously had reasons for your case and when we responded with a null thing, it isn't really a response. Maybe make sure people understand your case a bit more. Tunnelling is where you approach everything with a confirmation bias, seeking clarity is not the same thing. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:06 Probulous wrote: Ultimately Marv, all I wanted from you was a post that said clearly "I didn't know how to answer the question so I pushed it back. I don't want this to contiue to shit up the thread so please drop it. I will take a look at my games and give you some thoughts in a little while." and then post something clear. It was your choice NOT to do this that made me think you were scum. I don't really understand this line of thought. It's not alignment indicative either way. You don't think as scum I would want the noise and suspicion at me to go away? What you suggest would have been best play FOR BOTH alignments, and my failure to do so would be a failure FOR BOTH alignments. Do you see? | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:19 wherebugsgo wrote: Here's the problem though, and this is because of a failure to understand where the question came from in the first place: the question Mattchew asked marv was loaded, which meant no matter what answer marv provided, half the town would call him scum. I pointed this out in my d1 notes specifically and it worked out exactly as I thought it would. I disagree. If I don't know something, I say it. If people call me scum because of it, then they are stupid. What is the harm in straight up saying "I don't know. I haven't really thought about my meta, let me get back to you." and then saying "Well I had a read and these are some thoughts..." | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:38 marvellosity wrote: I don't really understand this line of thought. It's not alignment indicative either way. You don't think as scum I would want the noise and suspicion at me to go away? What you suggest would have been best play FOR BOTH alignments, and my failure to do so would be a failure FOR BOTH alignments. Do you see? The outcome of not clarifying was people thought you were scum. You didn't get lynched Day 1 and the whole thing continued Day 2. If I were scum in your position, I would be quite happy. Even if you were lynched Day 2 all that would have done is confirm VE and myself (which was obvious anyway) and town would have no-where to go. The people defending you were town so that doesn't help us. Messing up the thread and sacrificing yourself is a decent scum play. A townie move would be to clear the air and quell the storm. Why? Because it makes it easier to scum hunt. It removes you from the centre of attention (you're town after all) and allows us to move on. But by inflaming the situation I had not choice but to try and work out your alignment. If I was scum, I would have continued doing what you were doing until I got lynched. I would ahve got my team to bus the hell of out of me. If I was town I would have been upfront and transparent. If town had gone batshit on that, well that is their problem. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:48 marvellosity wrote: I don't honestly see how you think people thinking I'm scum would be a good scumplay. But there we go. Well look at your defense. Um scum would never do this because it is so scummy. Should we have lynched you then? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: We've already been over all of this so many times. If you still can't see it, me explaining it again isn't going to help Thanks Look at this way, what if both you and VE were scum? Would your Day 1 play be a decent scum play? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:21 slOosh wrote: Nah it's cool, nothing to apologize for. I was in LI when I saw the nastiest slugfest in the form of VE & Toad, but I knew that this probably wasn't a repeat since it is a mini and the cost / benefits is pretty high for a mini game to pull off the same stunt. There were too many people lurking / chilling to make me think that it could be one scum planning on going at a slugfest. I suspected maybe one was SK maybe but seriously the way that the discussion was going it was too messy to take out anything worthwhile, which is why I ignored that and went after other stuff. Now the personal take away lesson for me is how to make people listen to what I have to say / making sure my case doesn't get buried as collateral damage of said slugfest. Nothing on your part, I don't think. I liked your posting since you were contributing and stuff, and I guess I got sidetracked somehow when I got null response from you and prplhz and decided to go after you for some reason (maybe subconscious backlash?). e: ... got null response Concerning snarfs from you and prplhz ... | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:40 Probulous wrote: I disagree. If I don't know something, I say it. If people call me scum because of it, then they are stupid. What is the harm in straight up saying "I don't know. I haven't really thought about my meta, let me get back to you." and then saying "Well I had a read and these are some thoughts..." That's YOUR opinion. Trying to classify the entire opinion of town in your own frame of thought is an exercise in futility, especially as it's documented that several players in the game would have jumped on marv if he answered the way you say he should have answered. Think about it this way: the only person who truly agreed with you was VE, while there were 3-4 influential townies on the opposite end. That's some more circumstantial evidence to support it was a loaded and trap question. Also, partly the reason I was so hard on VE was because he was the only player who indicated that he would have tunneled marv no matter what answer he provided (which is really funny). He clearly didn't do it consciously, but still. @slOosh: I think it's just a matter of time and experience perhaps? Sometimes it's worth it to take that risk. If the reaction from players isn't what you'd expect if your target is scum, that's when you need to backtrack. Start with confidence and display only that until there is evidence to suggest you are wrong. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 02 2012 09:56 Probulous wrote: Thanks Look at this way, what if both you and VE were scum? Would your Day 1 play be a decent scum play? That's why I arrived at the theory that they were both scum :| | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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