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Movie Star Mini Mafia! - Page 83

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wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
July 02 2012 07:52 GMT
#1641
MovIe Star Mini Mafia Analysis


So for the most part I'm going to ignore the obvious since that's been beaten to death so much already. Before I put it to rest, though, I want to bring up a couple of points that I think every player should take away from it as lessons (I happened to notice some interesting things myself and it'll perhaps help my own play even though I was omniscient)

1.) When you have a large conflict in a game, always try to trace it back to where it originated. Ask yourself as town if the people who are involved are the same as when it began. If there are missing players or people who have shifted or even meandered on away, ask yourself why. This question should have been asked about Mattchew this game. He spawned the VE vs marv conflict and basically he and his team sat back and munched the popcorn while town imploded. This is true even for cases on players. If a player says he'll make a case on a player or says something that indicates willingness to pursue a lead, but then doesn't, suspect them. They're not lining up words with actions and thus should be suspicious.

2.) Ask yourself if a play has merits from the perspective of mafia. For most scum players, a thread derailment like that would be pretty useful, but almost all mafia are very hesitant to do something like that themselves. (unfortunately the two players involved in this case are probably capable of doing it, so it didn't help here a great amount.) however, with that said, slOosh brought up a great point: in a game that is this small, it is highly unlikely that scum will do something that blatantly risky on day 1. He has an excellent point here and it should be heeded. Indeed, he was one of the only players who was on the "right" side of that issue this game. (also notable was risk.nuke, who correctly, IIRC, identified both marv and VE as town) Generally the correct play is to kill someone who is blatantly antitown, since the best solution for an antitown player is to kill them and move on. That prevents scum from playing safely like that and it teaches town to actually play selflessly instead of making the game about themselves.

3.) I don't know if it was intentional, but Mattchew's play from a scum perspective was pretty good regarding this situation. I once asked Ver how I could push a scum agenda without appearing to push one. He gave me some examples of Ace manipulating townies (and I saw this firsthand when I hosted Wheel of Fortune) and it opened my eyes to the possibilities of creating conflicts between townies where conflicts shouldn't exist, and then shifting the blame onto your targets as you please.

Now, from my perspective it didn't seem like Mattchew did this intentionally. (If he did, kudos) However, the play he did is exactly the kind of thing that wins the game for mafia. If ideas are planted in the heads of townies and the real source cannot be traced, the kind of destruction they will cause will be unstoppable.

prplhz did something similar although more obviously. He feigned to be a frustrated townie with MrZentor and effectively got a policy lynch on him for free. It damaged the scum team later in ways they couldn't have realized (rastaban was SK and if they killed him d1 it would've been far better) and it can never work again, particularly as there was nothing wrong with Zentor's play this game. However, because prplhz effectively faked his attitude, there was no repercussion at all for the Zentor lynch. Literally no one was held responsible when the responsible party was scum. Good play on prplhz's part. Town here should've asked themselves if a town prplhz would do the same thing as a scum prplhz in this situation. There were a couple posts that hinted toward prplhz saying something along the lines of "I'd like to kill Zentor because I have no better reads" (though not this obviously) but it's understandable that they were fairly hard to notice.




Town Overview


Town was kinda crippled by inactivity outside VE/Probulous/marv and slOosh day 1. Partly this was due to half of the thread being the posts of two players and partly it was due to complacence on the part of certain players. It additionally didn't help that the cop went afk and didn't send in an action n1.

I remember that in the obs QT several people said something like the thread was hard to read. I would agree with this sentiment: I started doing notes as I read along but I found it increasingly difficult as the posts became less and less focused and more and more emotional. Confirmation bias was very rampant; people would call others scum and then twist every single little thing that they read to try and force the evidence in thread to conform with their reads. I found it hard to believe that players were being very objective or clear-minded after the wagon on Zentor gained speed much faster than the one on rastaban.

If rastaban had been lynched on d1 both scum and town would have been in far better positions going into d2. Unfortunately after he lived he received very little attention from then on, particularly as two of the most clear-headed townies were shot that night.

Unfortunately for slOosh he really had no good targets to jail on n1, because it was almost assured that he would be the night kill. This was apparent by about halfway into day 1. Rastaban made a good choice in his shot of Zephirdd as well. I imagine that if the cop were actually active the target of choice would have been rastaban (as the runner up to the wagon on d1) partly because marv/VE were very likely to be frame targets. Of course we'll never know as the cop went afk and I replaced him later.

I questioned marvellosity's choice not to shoot on this night. It was the best night for him to shoot VE because if he was actually certain he was scum as he kept saying, a shot on VE would kill a scum and confirm himself at the same time. (of course it would only do the latter as we know now, but still) As marvellosity held the shot I was hoping that he had made the realization that VE was town. After all, if he still though VE was scum, why would he bother letting VE live to the next day to crap up the thread some more? In hindsight now that it's apparent marv was still convinced VE was scum, not shooting him that night but shooting him the next night was very bad. On n2 he should have shot Mattchew instead of VE knowing that if VE was scum he was going to get roleblocked. The only way VE would die is if he was town. Very poor choice for marv on n2.

xsksc, Zephirdd, and slOosh all played relatively well for the short amount of time each were in the game. I remember thinking when I was reading their posts that if they collaborated with Probulous + VE + marvellosity and ended the shitstorm, and then consolidated the reads and figured out which ones they agreed upon and which ones they didn't, scum and the SK would be in a world of trouble. However this never happened and each half of the town playerbase continued to do what it was doing as before.

Outside of this we had the remaining town players who had moments of good plays but for the most part were silent ghosts who were only present in name. Shraft, risk.nuke, and MrZentor all existed and did things, but went completely unnoticed because of their relative complacence. They did very little to push their reads or establish themselves as town. This is why they all lived for so long or were mislynched. Why would mafia or the SK be interested in killing players that look almost exactly like themselves?

Mafia Overview


You guys did just enough to win, but in the end your laziness caught up to you. You all didn't prepare adequately for a lylo situation. In lylo you need to play far differently from how you have played up till that point because no longer can you lurk and live. When all the loudest players are dead by virtue of you killing them, you expose yourselves and allow the remaining players to see how truly empty your filters are.

Thus, when lylo is reached you need to make that last strong push to get a mislynch and win. On this, you all failed miserably in letting your roleblocker die without as much as a peep of resistance. Partly this was due to you all being too scared about what the other players thought, and partly it was due to being caught completely off guard.

All game you should have been hunting the SK. That's priority number one over almost everything else because if you hunt the SK successfully you actually can establish yourself in the heart of town while eliminating your greatest threat at the very same time. On day 1 you had the golden opportunity to do exactly that, but you all chose the lazy route to mislynch someone (MrZentor) who could easily be mislynched at almost any point in the game. Were you scared of MrZentor? Why would you push a policy lynch on a nonscary townie so hard on d1 when you have almost any other option available to you?

to prplhz in particular: you need to be less scared of what townies think about you. At many points close to the end of the day I remember that you would overthink situations and start contradicting yourself. Remember that the townies in the game don't know your alignment. If you're calling another townie suspicious the only person who knows you're wrong is the guy you're calling out. If you start making weird hedges just to convince yourself you're not looking scummy by calling a townie out, you end up calling attention to yourself.

Observers will recall at some point in the obs QT I said "prplhz is overthinking way too much" and this is what I was referring to. Mafia who concern themselves too much with their own appearances will end up looking exactly like what they're trying not to look like: wishy washy, scared scum.

to Mattchew: you played okay overall given the events in-thread, but if the thread was quieter I can guarantee that you would've been under a lot more pressure. On an individual basis a lot of your posts came across really weird. You obviously didn't care about the lynch (outwardly) on most days and this is partly why you got so close to being lynched on d2. Luckily you got saved by a townie who was off his game, but in future situations remember that as mafia you need to play just as you play as town. Forget about being right and lose the fear about being caught and you'll be fine.

Snarfs: you needed to make a bold play at lylo. The failure to claim anything screwed your team because it doomed you. You are by far the most valuable member of the scumteam as the roleblocker because you can stop any blue and the SK in his tracks. Without you, it becomes very difficult for the scumteam to survive. I think if you had put town into a situation where they had to choose between you and another person, and you (with the help of your team) influenced to pick the other person, you would've won the game instead of losing at that point.

For most of the rest of the game you went unnoticed, which is fine, but it raises problems when you're closer to endgame as you become more and more exposed with fewer players alive.

Some Endgame Thoughts


Because of the way the lynches and night kills worked out, rastaban needed to hit scum at 3/3/1. He should have shot Mattchew on n2 (because of the failed d2 lynch) but he changed his shot at the last minute to xsksc. This really damaged his chances of winning because he needed the two factions to be roughly even in terms of power. However, he helped mafia greatly by helping them kill more townies. Mafia at this point should be preparing for a lylo situation in which they can win if they lynch the SK. They needed to prepare an SK claim or some sort of blue claim to keep the lynch between themselves and either one of the townies or the SK. However, they did not and thus they started to get picked off. This was a blunder on their part as they basically had the SK down to rastaban/Shraft (I recall someone saying this in the QT) but failed to deliver. They trusted marvellosity's read instead of doing their own work and it backfired on them.

In a 3v3v1 situation mafia wins if the SK is lynched and also wins if a townie is lynched and the SK is roleblocked. Snarfs should have claimed SK or some sort of blue here to stay alive. Without the roleblocker, there is nothing stopping the SK from killing the scum. At this point, Snarfs hiccuped and let himself die, screwing over his team. You can only lurk for so long before the game of numbers catches up to you and bites you in the ass. This is precisely what happened; with so few players left, mafia were sitting ducks. Their filters were terrible and it was blatantly obvious who they were. They needed to do something drastic to prevent the lynches and they didn't.

Somehow Shraft got lynched, which was a minor victory, but without a roleblocker the SK was still too dangerous. Perhaps instead of shooting marvellosity on that particular night scum should've shot at Rastaban.

note: I'll touch on rastaban's play later in an edit. I gotta go for now.
prplhz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark8045 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 10:26:11
July 02 2012 10:25 GMT
#1642
Yea I agree that we were handed this game on a silver platter by the VisceraEyes/marvellosity debacle and SK shooting into townies but we failed at LYLO. The two biggest things we did wrong was shoot Probulous over marvellosity. With a confirmed townie alive it is very hard to manipulate anything. We also talked in the QT about having Snarfs claim SK when he was up for lynch but that never amounted to anything.

Thanks for the analysis.
http://i.imgur.com/M7t7egx.png
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 12:52:59
July 02 2012 12:45 GMT
#1643
On July 02 2012 19:25 prplhz wrote:
Yea I agree that we were handed this game on a silver platter by the VisceraEyes/marvellosity debacle and SK shooting into townies but we failed at LYLO. The two biggest things we did wrong was shoot Probulous over marvellosity. With a confirmed townie alive it is very hard to manipulate anything. We also talked in the QT about having Snarfs claim SK when he was up for lynch but that never amounted to anything.

Thanks for the analysis.


Yes, I feel like this justifies my position on day 3 of "you will do what I say because I say so".

Edit: to Snarfs claiming. Only SK was plausible. Correctly or not, I'd have dismissed a blue claim on balance (we already had 3 blues as strong as the previous game with 3 blues).
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
MrZentor
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1648 Posts
July 02 2012 15:51 GMT
#1644
I knew prphlz was scum.
Falling’s just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination.
Mattchew
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States5684 Posts
July 02 2012 16:14 GMT
#1645
Forget about being right and lose the fear about being caught and you'll be fine.

so fucking hard
There is always tomorrow nshs.seal.
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
July 02 2012 22:04 GMT
#1646
On July 03 2012 00:51 MrZentor wrote:
I knew prphlz was scum.


Don't lie now. It doesn't suit you.

On June 22 2012 12:01 MrZentor wrote:
I don't think Prphlz as mafia would suggest something as idiotic as lynching me.

On June 22 2012 22:06 MrZentor wrote:
I am going to put all of Prplhz's posts in the spoiler and why each one is him making a joke, tunneling me, defending himself, talking about some other game, or some combination of those things. In summary, he hasn't done anything useful, like scum hunting.

On June 23 2012 12:09 MrZentor wrote:
I don't know Zephirdd....it got pretty intense, but I do agree that we should kill one of them.

##Vote: marvellosity


You were wrong as were most of us.
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
July 02 2012 22:12 GMT
#1647
Bugs ->

You're a champ mate. I agree that slOosh's point about the size of the game was crucial and it was something I missed in game and post game. I understand now why marvel's play made little sense for scum in this particular game. Sorry Marv, you were saying this but I wasn't getting it. As Bugs says, you are one of those people I know could pull this kind of stunt off which is why it was in my realm of possibility. I like the idea of going back to the source of a fight. I did a bit on day 1 but got caught up in the Marv thing.

In that situation is it better to try and work out the alignments of the people throwing shit, or to just ignore it and look elsewhere for scum? I had real trouble trying to divorce myself from looking at Marv's filter because I felt the game hinged on his alignment and so I had to get a read on him. Maybe I should have just given up and looked harder elsewhere. I always thought Mattchew was suspicious but I never really pushed him until day 2. That was a casualty of my preoccupation with Marv.
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 02 2012 22:13 GMT
#1648
Haven't you kinda answered your own question, Probey?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
July 02 2012 22:16 GMT
#1649
No because if I had just left you and VE to your own business in THIS game it would have been beneficial but that does not necessarily apply elsewhere.

It is more the principle of the thing. If two people are throwing shit around, what is the optimal play? Try and figure them out or just let them be and look elsewhere?
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
VisceraEyes
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States21171 Posts
July 02 2012 22:17 GMT
#1650
On July 03 2012 07:12 Probulous wrote:
Bugs ->

You're a champ mate. I agree that slOosh's point about the size of the game was crucial and it was something I missed in game and post game. I understand now why marvel's play made little sense for scum in this particular game. Sorry Marv, you were saying this but I wasn't getting it. As Bugs says, you are one of those people I know could pull this kind of stunt off which is why it was in my realm of possibility. I like the idea of going back to the source of a fight. I did a bit on day 1 but got caught up in the Marv thing.

In that situation is it better to try and work out the alignments of the people throwing shit, or to just ignore it and look elsewhere for scum? I had real trouble trying to divorce myself from looking at Marv's filter because I felt the game hinged on his alignment and so I had to get a read on him. Maybe I should have just given up and looked harder elsewhere. I always thought Mattchew was suspicious but I never really pushed him until day 2. That was a casualty of my preoccupation with Marv.


As was my suspicion of prplhz. We reap what we sow.
if I had to describe his playstyle, it'd be a coked up rabbit with the attention of a goldfish injecting caffeine into himself directly through an IV drip. it's like a reel of random animated shorts where things just blow up randomly
VisceraEyes
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States21171 Posts
July 02 2012 22:18 GMT
#1651
If you're able, it's best to ignore it. Most people aren't able though.
if I had to describe his playstyle, it'd be a coked up rabbit with the attention of a goldfish injecting caffeine into himself directly through an IV drip. it's like a reel of random animated shorts where things just blow up randomly
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 22:20:49
July 02 2012 22:20 GMT
#1652
I guess usually but not always it can be 2 townies flinging shit at each other.

It's already been mentioned that in a game this size it's very unlikely we're both scum.

So there are AT LEAST 2 other mafia and an SK (likely as not) out there for you to find that didn't involve us 2.

I think even though you put forward a bunch of decent logical arguments against me (although as discussed, flawed a little), you weren't at all sure yourself I was scum anyway.

Especially when you have slOosh thinking it's all much ado about nothing, it might pay to listen (risk too, etc)
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
July 02 2012 22:30 GMT
#1653
On July 03 2012 07:20 marvellosity wrote:
I think even though you put forward a bunch of decent logical arguments against me (although as discussed, flawed a little), you weren't at all sure yourself I was scum anyway.


Exactly. That is my question. I was 100% certain VE was town. He just screamed it to me. So that was why I was focused on you.

Yeah maybe if I am unsure I should just move on to someone else and then come back to it later. Will keep in mind.
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 02 2012 22:33 GMT
#1654
go back and read wbg's analysis too, because I *did* make points that VE was twisting and manipulating my words, and you and others said I didn't. You got confirmation bias.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
VisceraEyes
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States21171 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 22:34:21
July 02 2012 22:34 GMT
#1655
We do what we must to get the scums lynched.

if I had to describe his playstyle, it'd be a coked up rabbit with the attention of a goldfish injecting caffeine into himself directly through an IV drip. it's like a reel of random animated shorts where things just blow up randomly
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 02 2012 22:34 GMT
#1656
yes, VE. Funny that shooting you led me to finding and killing the RBer directly after, eh?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
VisceraEyes
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States21171 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 22:36:51
July 02 2012 22:35 GMT
#1657
As I said, I'm thankful my shenanigans didn't stop you from trying once I was gone.

e: although to be fair you should have shot Matt. We could have destroyed them together. TOGETHER!
if I had to describe his playstyle, it'd be a coked up rabbit with the attention of a goldfish injecting caffeine into himself directly through an IV drip. it's like a reel of random animated shorts where things just blow up randomly
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 22:37:31
July 02 2012 22:37 GMT
#1658
Of course not! I think we both learnt something from our prolonged exchange anyways

edit: and of course i should have fucking shot matt, lol. shooting you was the single worst play of the game.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
July 02 2012 22:39 GMT
#1659
On July 03 2012 07:33 marvellosity wrote:
go back and read wbg's analysis too, because I *did* make points that VE was twisting and manipulating my words, and you and others said I didn't. You got confirmation bias.


Again, that is irrelevant because VE's case was not what my case was based on and I had a very strong town read on him. VE was going on about your meta and such things which is not alignment indicative. I was concerned with your refusal to quell the argument with clarity (which could have been a scum ploy). VE's twisting of your words was bleh to me.

I agree that I was LOOKING for why you were scum, rather than trying to find out IF you were scum. It was a combination of things that lead me down that road. I didn't think you would do that as town; I did think you were capable of pulling this stunt as scum; I had a strong town read on VE; I know you are capable of pulling the wool over my eyes and so was extra cautious with you. Consider it a compliment
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
July 02 2012 22:41 GMT
#1660
I still don't get how when I play the worst game I have ever played with a town that tears itself to pieces, I end up winning.

It feels so hollow
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
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