TL Mafia LVI - Page 5
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VisceraEyes
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VisceraEyes
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On July 03 2012 15:15 Vivax wrote: Dude, BM predicted BKE would flip scum when he thought that it was too late to save him. He did that to gain support among townies for an acro lynch. That can only mean he knew about your alignment, and so do I now. Why don't you realize it and gg out, or do you prefer giving us some more info? Maybe you have some kind of extraordinary defense regarding this one? @VE BM points to the next scum with something that can be considered a major mistake, you prefer to pick me for defending BKE together with him in earlygame. I still think the arguments against BKE were bad at the time. They all depended on one's definiton of a newbie. What is this I don't even... Vivax, you're calling BKE scum and defending him in the same post do you realize this? Why would you go to the effort of defending him while you're literally in the middle of spearheading his lynch? | ||
VisceraEyes
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And "We lynch BKE today" doesn't tell me what you think of Vivax, regardless of what you're implying. | ||
VisceraEyes
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My read o NSH was based on the tone o his posts, and now the tone is explained. It's pretty much as simple as that. | ||
VisceraEyes
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UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS FOR THE WIN!!! | ||
VisceraEyes
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NSH comment on my Vivax vote. I unvoted your candidate and posted a case on another player...your opinion would be appriciated. | ||
VisceraEyes
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On July 03 2012 22:05 Acrofales wrote: Okay. Lets talk about Vivax. Here's my case from last night: + Show Spoiler [full post] + On July 02 2012 17:41 Acrofales wrote: Marvellosity, why you no lead me to scum? I disagree with drwiggl3s. He seems to be implying that everybody should've voted for BKE, because the lynch was lead off him by scum. Clearly a possibility, but as the day went on I was also getting townier vibes about BKE, so it could just be townies realizing that lynching BKE was a bad idea when push came to shove. The choice between mK and foxtrotter is still pretty null in my book. Marvellosity made a case against foxtrotter for being a hypocrit. ET made a case against mK for kenpachi rule. Other than these two things both were lurkers. I ended up sheeping marvellosity because I liked his case a bit more. Turns out that was wrong. + Show Spoiler [votecount] + mKmKmK - 6 rastaban Kurumi Vivax austinmcc Foxtrotter grush57 BroodKingEXE - 6 Katina ShiaoPi drwiggl3s Bill Murray Mandalor layabout casualman - 2 BroodKingEXE casualman Foxtrotter - 11 Marvellosity Mattchew Acrofales EchelonTee s0Lstice Hyaach VisceraEyes MajuGarzett NoSmurfHere Twelve ghost_403 Mandalor - 1 Adam4167 No vote: mKmKmK There's a few things I want to draw from the votecount. The first is that mK never even showed up to vote, so he should get modkilled or replaced. I don't think it's worth discussing him until one of those things happens. Inactives are null, although I have a meta-argument that if the host puts in a lot of work to find a replacement for an inactive, he is probably scum. It has worked in Holy Roman (it took Caller/Toad/blubb a lot of effort to replace Vaderseven; he was scum) and in Game of Thrones (it took Curu a LOT of effort to replace Gumshoe; also was scum). 2 is a pretty shitty sample size for statistics, but it's worth remembering. The second is that I was kinda expecting casualman to switch his vote at some point during the day, but he never did, not even when the lynch was equally balanced between 3 targets. That goes beyond the earlier simple trolling to being full-blown retarded. If someone would do us the favour of shooting him tonight so we don't have to worry about him tomorrow, that'd be great. grush: I asked you earlier who you wanted to lynch. I am unsatisfied with: + Show Spoiler [suspicious of casualman] + On July 02 2012 01:57 grush57 wrote: I have to agree. Atleast BM isn't going full retard like casualman. Casualman doesn't want to play and is just being plain stupid. Plus, he is by far playing the most scummiest so far. + Show Spoiler [calls BKE scum] + Into voting for mK with no prior reasoning. Now given the pre-game banter you seem to be one of those players who looks scummy in all his games, regardless of actual alignment (like bluelightz and Zealos). I know you looked scummy in Space Station and were town, because I blew you up for looking scummy (or rather, placed a bomb on you and scum shot me). However, this looks terrible. I want to know what the rest of the thread thinks of this. It's night, so plenty of time to discuss. Vivax: I like you for a D2 lynch too. Every single case you've made has been some kind of wonky connection-based case with terrible premises. I'm not sure what s0lstice sees in you that's townie, but I'm not getting it. 1. You are not reading the thread properly despite being told multiple times by multiple people (myself, VE and marvellosity so far) to read the thread. 2. You are throwing suspicion around on people without giving a real reason (myself, VE, Shiao and marvellosity). While you built a dodgy connection case on VE and me based on the premise that BM is town (can we please lynch and/or shoot BM?!), your "suspicion" of marvellosity is that he is shutting down discussion at a time he was GENERATING discussion. You also don't like ShiaoPi for some unspecified reasons. You are therefore casting suspicion without real reason on:
I'd be happy to look into any of the 3 players if you tell me what you think is scummy, but saying "you're shutting down discussion when he isn't" or "I don't like your posts" is trying to take away momentum from town players and creating a bad atmosphere. That is scum agenda point number 1. 3. Your scumhunting is limited to making connection cases. The only case that isn't a connection case is suggesting grush for a lurker lynch. I say above what I think about grush. However, it's a pretty damned easy case to make. It was also at a time to create MORE chaos in a thread that was consolidating on a lynch (however badly that turned out). Adding candidates 1 hour before the deadline is a terrible idea unless someone suddenly stands out as obvious scum. Grush didn't do that, it was just another lurker to be added to the list. Why? To make the votecount even more dispersed and less useful than it is now? For somoene who likes connection cases this is fucking weird: the strongest connnections are votes. 4. Your voting behaviour. You said Mandalor was scum. I haven't even seen you give a good reason why on that one either, but regardless of that, somehow your ninjavote ended up on mK: Note the timestamp: 12 hours before the deadline. A look in his filter gives us this post: + Show Spoiler [Vivax defending mK] + On July 01 2012 21:42 Vivax wrote: Ok, ET. Looks like I'll have to do the talk for you: "Why the hell is Vivax using that argument when I've already posted 2 others for a scum mK being an option?Does he want to say that the policy is the only reason I'm doing that?" 1. The scum claim you adressed. I guess with it you meant that he says VE used good arguments against BKE, but then considers him to be scummy for one line of text than really says nothing about VE's alignment. Then he suspects kurumi for 'mafiavibes', that's all. I agree that his arguments are terrible and contain zero information. From this point of view he's actually scummy or bad townie. 2. His low activity after that post I don't know how experienced it is, but that behavior would also fit a blue role. That would also be the argument made by you I consider to not be decisive, yet you treat this as a strong argument against him. 3. His wishywashy post regarding the VT roleclaim. A blue role could react like that, too. ___________________________________________ I'm kind of changing my opinion regarding him after writing this. Mainly because of point 1 .I still think that point 2 and 3 wouldn't be enough for me to vote for him. But 1 is a good argument to vote for him. Sorry if I don't have as much faith in the kenpachi rule as you do, but I didn't see it successfully in action through multiple games, and I also see the downsides. So, you are unconvinced by ET's case on mK, there is absolutely NO reason to consolidate votes, yet 3 minutes later you ninjavote for mK's death. I have to say, I don't understand this move from a scum PoV either, but I understand it LESS from a town PoV: how do you defend a guy and then vote for him 3 minutes later. Best fitting explanation I can think of: you're noob scum naïvely bussing your teammate and thinking you can salvage it with some chaos and a D2 BKE lynch (he made a post trying to connect mK and BKE 10 minutes after his vote). In closing, you're scum Most of that still stands. However, the last part is clearly not true. Vivax, I am trying to puzzle out how this works from scum OR town. We now know mK is town. I cannot think of an explanation for how your vote ended up on him after defending him, regardless of your alignment. I want you to explain your thought process here to me, because the same happened slightly later again. + Show Spoiler [Vivax pre-votes marv] + On July 02 2012 18:49 Vivax wrote: Poor poor acrofales. Posting such a huge case and then he gets zero attention for it I'll give you some: Get your things straight, thinking I'd be mafia is ridiculous. Let's string up people for the FT mislynch.I told you the cases against him were bullshit and more of a policy lynch than anything else. That said, marv, I don't see you drawing conclusions after his death, but you criticisized mine before his death for being premature. You contribute zero to town except for causing bandwagons, and your posts are numerous, but not helpful. I'll anticipate what I'm gonna do day2. ##Vote marvellosity Marv dies at the daypost and flips town. Now why would a scum Vivax bother with such a post and then shoot Marv in the face? Unless Marv was shot by some utterly insane vigi (I had him fairly clearly town in my spreadsheet), but then the NKs don't add up. Seems to me Marv was shot by scum (makes perfect sense, as an active townie-looking player with a good reputation), so how does a scum-Vivax make a case on Marv and then shoot him. These two actions don't make sense. The first one from either scum or town point of view, the second one from a scum point of view (from a town point of view it's just a really bad read). These make me unsure of Vivax as scum. However, the rest of the case still points to a scummy Vivax. Given Katina and Hyaach's behaviour (thanks for pointing that one out, also flew under my radar), I'm going to give Vivax the benefit of the doubt for now. @Vivax: I still want a better answer on the case than "lol, a stupid townie is burying your case under a pile of spam". I'm still not sure you're scum. Acro you didn't mention my post on Vivax at all. We're talking about Vivax, right? Because I asked about him and I posted about him? Why not mention my post about him on the matter? I expected NSH to ignore me, but you?! My sadness...is complete. | ||
VisceraEyes
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Everyone needs to be voting for Vivax. It's the town thing to do. | ||
VisceraEyes
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NSH please comment on the posts regarding Vivax rather than just dismissing them. "Not sold" isn't enough at this point, not when you're wishywashying out of your present candidate and you admittedly don't have any other strong reads other than "Meh I think one of the more active players is scum" with no reasoning. Guys watch NSH very closely - he was winding up to lead this lynch on Katina, and now he's backing off subtly...don't let him pull bullshit. | ||
VisceraEyes
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VisceraEyes
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On July 03 2012 12:19 NoSmurfHere wrote: Scummy posts that defend BM Plenty of players said "I just don't want to read or consider BM" which is completely understandable from a town perspective. Softly calling him town is pretty strange, though. It makes sense from a mafia perspective, since they know he'd return town to checks. Sucks for them that a vig had the sense to shoot him in the face. One thing I am very interested in now: Acrofales, now that BM is dead who would you like to kill today? Who qualifies as scum? Scummy posts that defend BM. That kinda exactly describes this post doesn't it? On June 30 2012 23:30 Vivax wrote: I trust BillMurray in his case against VisceraEyes and acrofales. Why? I looked through VE's filter and didn't like it, then saw acrofales jumping in with this to try and defend him: That self-vote stunt wasn't shitty evidence. It was probably planned in egocentrical way by a scum player. I can understand if someone placed his vote on somebody else for no apparent reason, since that will immediately force someone to defend himself (or he can try and make it look like he's lurking). I don't see how a self-vote would create a good atmoshpere for town. It might all be for shits and giggles pre-game, but ingame it just might be an exaggerated attempt to act like an overconfident townie and just causes confusion. Also, Acrofales, I find you to be scummy by finding a reason to jump out of cover and defend someone, but finding no reason to make own cases and post reads. It helps me imagine the option of you trying to cover the scumbuddy who has the role of acting as an overzealous townie. And when I say overzealous, I don't speak about the value of his posts, but of the sheer amount. ____ I didn't like BKE's post until I saw him mentioning the the lynched guy he used to justify his policy lynch discussion about being careful with newbs, that's enough for me as proof that his policy talk was in town's interest and not just some attempt to start a never ending policy discussion. I still cannot be sure of him being townie on the long term, but for now it's enough. If you asked me who I would vote for right now, then it would be either VE or acrofales. So what's up NSH? What's with the double-standard, and why the pressure-drop on Acro? Where was the thought-process from the bolded heading sir? | ||
VisceraEyes
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On July 04 2012 04:24 austinmcc wrote: I guess I'm hung up on his actions before the lynch not because he defended FT, but because of the way he defended FT and the timing. He posts about grush when FT has 3 votes. mKmK 10 / BKE 7 / FT 3 when Vivax spoke up. Sentiment in the thread had started to change, so it's not like he couldn't anticipate more coming, but we had less than 1:30 left and needed 5 more votes to get swapped at a minimum. The way he defends him is also less calling FT town, and more asking why Marv has singed out FT, when similar lynches are available. I'm okay with Marv's answer that the read comes from more than just the text itself, but I think Vivax's question is one that townies should have been asking. I know I didn't feel fully comfortable with why we swapped so hard. Sure, it could be to gain some cred, but it could also be concern over a really hard push on a guy for reasons that can't really be articulated. :/ I see what you're saying. I'm gonna go reread that whole exchange. | ||
VisceraEyes
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VisceraEyes
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On July 04 2012 05:58 NoSmurfHere wrote: Stop talking to Kurumi, it's a colossal waste of time and space. If he wants to contribute he'll contribute. Otherwise we're best off just reading his posts and ignoring him for a while. @VE there is nothing particularly scummy in the post of Vivax you quoted. Just calling something scummy doesn't make it so, and I'm pretty annoyed that you haven't yet learned your lesson. If you can learn to actually provide reasons for your reads then I might listen to you, but until then you're not really worthy of any serious attention. If you continue to do so I'll call for your lynch. The fact of the matter is that Vivax's activity patterns and his effort indicate that he's either a townie who is seeking to kill mafia but doesn't really know the proper things to look for (which is why he attacked marv, for example) or he's a really good scum who is pushing blame onto culpable townies. For now I lean toward the former because some of his posts (such as the one that missed the reason for your selfvote/unvote) simply indicate he is a townie who isn't reading thoroughly. Upon rereading, my stance on Katina hasn't changed. I am very sure she is scum. I am also still fairly sure Twelve is scum, and that Shiaopi is scum. I'll post cases later today but these three players are my strongest reads. I have to look at the posts a couple more times to see if I'm just paranoid or if there is a scum, but I really do think that one of the more active players (i.e. someone between ET, Acro, and VE) might be scum. I just can't figure out why I have that nagging feeling or who it is. Okay, this stops here. I've provided reasoning for thinking Vivax is scum, several times. It's not scummy "because I called it so", it's scummy because it's indicative of pushing an agenda Bugs. Like, I explained that in the post! I explained that the fact that he didn't push us at all after that post VERY CLEARLY ILLUSTRATES THAT HE'S PUSHING AN AGENDA. Don't threaten me with "Oh I'll push your lynch if you don't stop", that's absolutely asinine. You think I'm afraid of you sir? You think I'm afraid to die? I'm fucking town bro, I'm not scared of you pushing my lynch because I know I'm town and I have faith that town will see that. ESPECIALLY since you're threatening to lynch me for pushing my lynch preference. Get over yourself. I can get Vivax lynched without your help, or the help of your cronies. | ||
VisceraEyes
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All townies should be voting for Vivax, for the good of the town. On July 02 2012 00:41 VisceraEyes wrote: Vivex is blatantly misrepresenting the facts. I explain, pretty clearly, that I voted for myself so that the voting thread would show up on my Subscribed Threads list. This thread was already on there from me posting in this thread several times even before the game started, but I had no reason to post in the vote-thread until the game had started, and so it wasn't on my subscribed threads list when the game started. I've explained this in two separate posts here and here.... So I don't know why you're saying that I "haven't defended myself" on the matter when I clearly have. Get your facts right, seriously. On July 03 2012 14:31 VisceraEyes wrote: This vote...feels better. I want to lynch Vivax. For starters, Vivax directly supported BM's (dumb) case against Acro and I. However, in spite of me lurking like a beast in D1 and Acro pushing a BM lynch, Vivax never pushed for either of our lynch. Ever. Unless this post counts - I've spoilered it because it's big. And you'd think after a big-ass post like this there'd be a vote attached to it or something...there isn't. + Show Spoiler + On July 02 2012 00:34 Vivax wrote: My other question concerns your reasons for suspecting BKE. Regarding BillMurray: Your reason for suspecting him is that you think that he tried to start a bandwagon on you. He called you out cause of your selfvote, and so did I. You never defended yourself for your weird self-vote, others defended you instead, like acrofales with this lolpost: Doesn't look like acrofales has any interest whatsoever in even considering a scum VE, and his next post: Here acrofales says that 1. he doesn't believe that selfvote to be scummy. 2. doesn't want to look like he's defending VE and emphasizes that he doesn't have an opinion regarding him. 3. Goes so far to say that the self-vote can't be used as evidence for anything and that BM's case is OMGUS. Then VE doesn't explain the self-vote and tries to discredit BM with this: Then BM answered with this: What's going on atm?A BKE bandwagon. I didn't like acrofales and VE after this. Notice how he never comments on BM at all. LOL I think it's funny because he specifically says "Regarding BillMurray" and then proceeds to talk not about BM, but instead about Acrofales. And now his vote is on BKE, because BM's post "looked like scum bussing, with plans to kill Acro after". Scum. Let's lynch it. All of this is scummy as shit behavior, and I'm not going away. I was right about BM. Sheep me to victory. | ||
VisceraEyes
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Like, NSH is saying I didn't say any of this when I said all of it. And he's willfully ignoring these facts. This isn't emotion, this is observation. *shrug* | ||
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On July 04 2012 06:30 NoSmurfHere wrote: I was right about BM too, you moron. Anyway I'm done trying to reason with you for now. The first post you quote is worthless because Vivax admitted he made a mistake regarding your selfvote. The second post hinges on Vivax apparently not pushing for your or Acro's lynch. Sure, the defense of BM makes him look bad but it's characterized by him having a strong opinion and clear stance. Most scum in that type of situation won't hardline so that they can spin the story in their favor later. That's how grush and Katina looked when they referenced BM (and the fact of the matter is that there were very few players who mentioned him) Oh, really? So, when called out, all scum have to do is to admit that they were wrong and they're clear, huh? That's cool, because I thought that when people say things, they should be held accountable for them. He thrice called me out for not answering his question Bugs, and I answered it BEFORE he asked it. So we shouldn't hold him accountable for the actions sir? No? Not at all? What an example to set! What a precedent! You truly are a town innovator, sir. Truly. | ||
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On July 04 2012 06:30 NoSmurfHere wrote: I was right about BM too, you moron. Anyway I'm done trying to reason with you for now. The first post you quote is worthless because Vivax admitted he made a mistake regarding your selfvote. The second post hinges on Vivax apparently not pushing for your or Acro's lynch. Sure, the defense of BM makes him look bad but it's characterized by him having a strong opinion and clear stance. Most scum in that type of situation won't hardline so that they can spin the story in their favor later. That's how grush and Katina looked when they referenced BM (and the fact of the matter is that there were very few players who mentioned him) Yeah? So? He said in the first post that he would be voting between myself and Acro, and by the second post in that quote, he STILL HADN'T DONE THAT! Having a "strong opinion and clear stance" are worth nothing if he doesn't back up his shit with a vote and act like he means it Bugs, seriously...you're ignoring the most obvious and blatant things. | ||
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##Unvote Unreal. | ||
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