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On June 13 2012 12:53 Radfield wrote:Mafia just did us a favor  I like that mafia teams keep killing off good scum players. Off to bed, I'll post in the morning. BB, you're reading too much into that post. I was just explaining to ace that if I was scummily saving Palmar, the only option was for me and palmar to be scumbuddies, something he refused to just come out and say.
This whole thread is full of people that are good scum players. WTF is this shit?
Radfield, this is bullshit. I appreciate that you're still going on and on with BrownBoy about this retarded post with Ace, but can you maybe find some scum? Your only read has been me, who you promptly backpedaled and said you didn't want to lynch. Palmar thinks you're double-confirmed, but I think Palmar likes having his ego caressed gingerly. Like a lover.
I think you're motherfucking scum. What do you think about that, SIR?
@Palmar
I'm lynching Radfield. If you get in my way, you're fucking scum.
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Okay, finished reading the thread.
Yeah I recommend you guys doing it. Before doing it I was suspicious of some people, but after reading it I remember why I thought they were town in the first place and reassures me that they are town (or at least very good SK).
It also made me reconsider my stance on BrownBear.
When I started reading the thread, I started thinking BB was scum. Hell I even have a case made against him.
Like, up until he made his 1st case against Palmar I already had a case made against him and thought he was scum.
...however, he has done some things that made me doubt it.
For instance, his rage and frustration against Palmar seemed kind of genuine at points; some of his posts and answers (to one of my SK questions and stuff for instance) seemed genuine as well and he seemed to post without hesitation or fear by that point. The tone of his posts from that point onward made me rethink my stance on him as well.
Another thing that made me very wary was him backing off Palmar. I couldn't see any scum motivation for him to do that. Like, he already had his target set if he was scum...why back off by saying he was angry at him and now Palmar doesn't seem scummy enough?
I couldn't find scum motivation for that, which again dishearted me since I had figured out he was scum >_>
I'll keep an eye out for him, but those things I read later in the thread made me doubt my read on him.
However, I found an obvious scum I can't believe we (or at least I) missed earlier:
Hesmyrr
In my next post I'll say why I think we should lynch him today.
I still find Wiggles suspicious, but I'm more confident in my Hesmyrr read right now, and to be honest, after Wiggles play on Liar Game, I don't really know if this is his town play or scum play.
I'd be willing to bet he's scum (or SK), but I don't want to divide town with too much discussions and lynch candidates so I'll try to focus on Hesmyrr.
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Why I think Hesmyrr is scum
First of all, he's been absent almost all game. The first time he showed up was in freaking page 10.
On June 11 2012 07:58 Hesmyrr wrote:RNG is very bad. I actually think the strategy do not even fit profile for townie; one signs up for a game in order to find a scum, not let some uncontrollable factor dictate the game for them. Moreover, it is even worse for this setup because there are only two scums (I do not count Iri Flina b/c she and mafia don't know others identity thus cannot influence the town to save each other). Therefore when someone genuinely discuss RNG it is anti-town move. Of course, I put off some players as null tells because there are townie justifications for doing so like misguided attempt to promote discussion, or a bait. Still there are some interesting suspects to be had, the strongest one being VisceraEyes. He have several scummy behaviour, the most blatant one being his lack of concrete opinion about RNG. This post is terrible, I can't even tell whether he supports or hates RNG. It looks like VE favours RNG plan since he says "the chances aren't bad for hitting scum randomly", but also tries to weaken the statement with his last sentence and usage of "in theory". But then he agrees with BrownBear that he've "never liked the idea...it always stinks of scum" thereafter. Okay, I could have misunderstood the previous post. Until when he pops in next he is in support of Palmar's RNG website! What happened? Then he wrote this which was exactly what I was waiting for since the RNG debate started. I actually waited a bit before posting to see what opinions others had. What I specifically wanted to look for was the post that encouraged discussion about way to perform RNG, because frankly it is nothing but a dead-end a.k.a. waste of time. The mafia would want to keep the town discuss about RNG as much as possible. Last paragraph of VisceraEyes tries to do that exactly. Note that even as a suggestion it makes little sense; like GreYMisT pointed it out, the suggestion negates out the only benefit RNG vote offers compared to actual analysis- he should know that, having said in his own words, "In theory, removing scum's ability to influence the lynch by agreeing as a town to lynch by RNG". Can I find any townie motivation for his behaviour up til now? Hell no. ##Vote: VisceraEyesEveryone should note that same attempt to misdirect focus of town discussion has been made by GreYMisT two times. I actually haven't read the case on him yet but I will be keeping very close eye on him. As a side note, chaoser seem pretty adamant on using RNG vote. Can anyone tell me if he held similar position in previous game?
This is a bad case on VE in my opinion. Why? Because it only takes the RNG bits into account.
Like I said, discussion about the RNG bit is not alignment telling, specially in the context of the thread (everybody was talking about it).
More over, VE's stance on RNG wasn't scummy, because VE seemed to genuinely try to contribute in that manner with his thoughts, even if they were wrong or "stupid" or "wishy-washy":
That's his sole reason for voting VE, yet he doesn't take anything about his most recent behaviour into account.
Does he think VE's attitude makes him scum? I don't know
Does he think VE wanting Radfield dead makes him scum? I don't know
He just focuses on the RNG deal (which is not alignment telling of VE) and nothing else. That raises a red flag for me
The's also wishy-washy about Grey and says he'll "be keeping very close eye on him", and says he didn't actually read the case on him...
He basically never mentions Grey again, nor the case against him. Nothing.
Anyways, at least he "sparked some discussion" though, and he could have easily reread the thread or something to change his mind, or discuss it with other people, etc.
Except he goes lurking for 9 freaking pages.
On page 19 he posts:
On June 12 2012 05:48 Hesmyrr wrote:Excuse me, could you clarify what you have meant by Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:17 BrownBear wrote:
The chief person driving the lynch appears to be MZ himself.
This is an absolute joke of a post.
The first thing he thought of posting after his long absence was a pointless question.
He doesn't explain why he was absent, he doesn't explain if he changed his mind about VE or not (if he was legitimately absent). He doesn't explain what his new thoughts and opinions are, or if he even cares about forming them (like the usual "I'm gonna read the thread now to figure out what's going on" posts).
Nothing, just some garbage post that the only purpose it makes it make it seem Hesmyrr is part of the discussion when he's now and trying to blend in.
On June 12 2012 07:07 Hesmyrr wrote:Show nested quote +Hesmyrr, you pushed VE, you're obviously around as you posted an hour ago, yet you are not contributing at all to the lynch. Do you still think VE is the best lynch? Is anyone else on your radar? Pitch in. I was actually waiting for you to post the analysis regarding VE, since I couldn't find concrete argument to merit analysis post yet. Currently I find MZ lynch to be better than that of Palmar but I am not going to get stuck on black-white thinking; the fact that GreYMisT+VE have voted him is cause for concern which is why I am reserving my judgment until the last moment. Personally the interactions happened between VisceraEyes and you are making me extremely wary.
He only posted this when called out.
It's just a defensive post to somewhat explain why he didn't follow through with his case on VE.
He also says "I was actually waiting for you to post the analysis regarding VE, since I couldn't find concrete argument to merit analysis post yet"
How was he expecting to do that? By lurking the game away until Radfield posted his thoughts on VE?
Why didn't he actively try to get Radfield's thoughts on VE? (you know, with a simple question perhaps?)
Why didn't he actually follow up on his case on VE, or reanalyze him and see if he still finds him scummy?
He barely mentions MZ and Palmar, without giving any opinion on them. He finds Grey and VE suspicious (them voting MZ is a "cause of concern") but he never states why.
Is it because of that post he made 9 pages back? Does he still find Grey suspicious because of that small reason that Grey was diverting attention or something?
He doesn't say, and doesn't care.
On June 12 2012 07:12 Hesmyrr wrote:
Oh also if someone is going to die today it's either going to be VisceraEyes or Meapak_Ziphh. With Radfield around and what I have seen of him so far I'll be shocked if he votes for Palmar.
Useless post to just make a summary of what's happening or will happen.
Yet he doesn't even try to form an opinion on it.
I don't think he ever said what he thought of MZ himself, or even discussed about the lynch
On June 12 2012 07:33 Hesmyrr wrote:I actually wanted to let the conversation play out longer and see if it further justifies my doubts, but since I already wrote about VisceraEyes - Radfield connection I'll try my best to explain why I feel bad about these two, which started from here. His first three paragraphs reveal he feels wish-washy about MZ and I found it suspect how he was being conservative with his vote even at that situation, not voting for his current biggest scum-read. The tone of post is such that it makes him open for voting both, like Radfield will post his case and will let himself be "persuaded" by VisceraEyes so I wanted to gauge strength of the argument. Then VisceraEyes started picking up bunch of freebie townie points by talking about it with him. I guess I just didn't see reason Radfield would refrain posting his analysis at this critical juncture. He did fix most of the problems I had with him at time of this posting so I'll see how his argument turns out and determine whether to stick with VE depending on situation. I do have to leave for moment but I will be back in order to change my vote if needed.
He comes up with a random accusation about Rad+VE, yet actually he doesn't seem to make any conclusion whatsoever.
Does he really think Rad and VE are scumbuddies? Or just VE? Or not? Does he think any of them are scum?
He talks about how Rad is wishy-washy about MZ....but what does he think about MZ?
He doesn't say. This post is filler that just tried to cast doubt on Rad (or VE) and just so he had something to post, failed to come to any conclusion and failed to even address anything that has been happening in the thread at all.
Also notice how he says things like "I was waiting for you (rad) to make an analysis" or "I actually wanted to let the conversation play out longer".
He's giving excuses on why he hasn't posted yet. He's saying he hasn't posted yet because he's analyzing everything and waiting for the right people to do the right things by their own; yet again he gains no conclusions from it and doesn't do anything to fix it later.
I'll ignore his next post since again the same things repeat again and again
Of course, he's been absent ever since, and failed to contribute anything at all since his VE "case" freaking 12 pages ago.
##Vote: Hesmyrr
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EBWOP:
Nothing, just some garbage post that the only purpose it makes it make it seem Hesmyrr is part of the discussion when he's not and trying to blend in.
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I approve of a Hesmyrr lynch and will vote for him if I think Radfield isn't happening.
But it is.
I think a lynch between Radfield/Hesmyrr is going to hit scum. This is going to be a good day. ^^
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I think Radfield is town.
He was one of those that I was suspicious from at first, but after reading through the thread I stopped being suspicious any longer.
I think he's town mostly because of his activity when he's around, the way he seems to care what's going on, how he pressures people, ask them questions, and just generally caring what happens to town (the opposite of what Hesmyrr has done).
I doubt he's scum because of that, but I'm not as sure of him as of chaoser or you being town for instance. Yet I don't want him lynched for now, not before Hesmyrr and Wiggles.
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Well... there's that "If Radfield is alive by D2 he's mafia" thing though >_>
And the fact that if he was town, there would basically be no drawbacks for scum to shoot him instead of Ace <_<
And the fact that every time Ace is shot as town on N1 is because he's making sense or playing well (like in Liar Game), and he could have been on to something by voting Rad today >_>
Hmm, I wonder how much deep we can read into the night actions.
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I still have no fucking idea who the SK could be though or how to even look for him, but meh I guess we can start looking for him once we lynch both scum.
I mean, he doesn't have KP basically (I'm sure he'll save his only KP until end-game, like scum did in the Liar Game), so he's basically harmless to us right now.
Also he can buffer scum's hits at night.
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I found myself thinking Grey was more likely town as I read the thread (for instance I couldn't see his "Ace vote gambit" thing from a scum perspective, whether he legitimately voted for Ace or planned the gambit since the beginning), but there were some off bits from him that still made me a little bit suspicious of him.
I'd leave him be for today though.
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damn gonzaw. I'm impressed.
Also I'm glad you reread my posts and came to a better conclusion
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On June 13 2012 17:16 BrownBear wrote:damn gonzaw. I'm impressed. Also I'm glad you reread my posts and came to a better conclusion
I can still post the "halfway-there" case I have of you if you want 
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On June 13 2012 16:02 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote:On June 12 2012 09:39 gonzaw wrote:
So....who do you think is scum? Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully. BrownBear, before doing anything....do you have the "clearer picture" yet? You promised to "take your time during the night cycle and read carefully"...I assumed you had done that in the night cycle, right? What did you conclude by then?
I did not have time, unfortunately. With 72 hours to go at the time, I thought I would be okay not sacrificing sleep to get through the thread.
I'm feeling like Radfield or Hesmyrr would be a good target. gonzaw already built a case against Hesmyrr that has some salient points (example: only appearing when his name comes up means he was reading the thread closely, but not contributing information unless he has to, which is a scum trait). I'm not 100% convinced yet because of hesmyrr's complete absence, but dude's got some 'splainin to do when he gets back.
As to Radfield, I've mentioned a couple things about him that make me iffy, but one other thing I noticed. Take a look at a sampling of Radfield posts around lynch time and in the night after:
On June 12 2012 06:46 Radfield wrote:Rest assured, If you're still the scummiest player after I finish filtering, I will push you Happy You're right though, he really only been 'in your face' with Palmar, but that doesn't make it look like a show. Can you lay out for me in a clear and concise format why you think MZ is the best lynch today?
On June 12 2012 06:58 Radfield wrote:
Chaoser, I don't really see the Greymist case right now. I certainly don't see much wrong with his response to the Vanilla Town thing. What specifically do you see as the reasons for voting Grey?
On June 12 2012 07:42 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 07:33 Hesmyrr wrote:I actually wanted to let the conversation play out longer and see if it further justifies my doubts, but since I already wrote about VisceraEyes - Radfield connection I'll try my best to explain why I feel bad about these two, which started from here. His first three paragraphs reveal he feels wish-washy about MZ and I found it suspect how he was being conservative with his vote even at that situation, not voting for his current biggest scum-read. The tone of post is such that it makes him open for voting both, like Radfield will post his case and will let himself be "persuaded" by VisceraEyes so I wanted to gauge strength of the argument. Then VisceraEyes started picking up bunch of freebie townie points by talking about it with him. I guess I just didn't see reason Radfield would refrain posting his analysis at this critical juncture. He did fix most of the problems I had with him at time of this posting so I'll see how his argument turns out and determine whether to stick with VE depending on situation. I do have to leave for moment but I will be back in order to change my vote if needed. I don't get it. You were here before that conversation even started, yet were making no attempt to push VE. Also, are you insinuating that me and VE are scum buddies together?
On June 12 2012 18:43 Radfield wrote:
Wiggles, that's all well and good, but those posts are startlingly neutral.
Who would you have voted for yesterday. Who do you think is playing scummy.
On June 12 2012 19:25 Radfield wrote:
Why did you want to lynch Palmar Ace?
All of these posts raise questions, which are a good thing. However, the number of Rad's posts that raise questions is far greater than the number of posts that provide answers. This isn't scummy in and of itself, but it could be a way to hide a lack of contribution - you can say you're contributing by "provoking town discussion" by asking questions, but in actuality, you aren't contributing anything, which could be seen as a scummy action...
Gah, I dunno. It's a ton of little things about Radfield's play this game that make me suspicious. But none of them are actually big enough for me to outright point at and say "this is good evidence for you being scum". I need to stop tunneling and look around some more.
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On June 13 2012 17:19 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 17:16 BrownBear wrote:damn gonzaw. I'm impressed. Also I'm glad you reread my posts and came to a better conclusion I can still post the "halfway-there" case I have of you if you want
Actually, I'm curious. What have you seen from me that appears scummy?
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On June 13 2012 17:20 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 17:19 gonzaw wrote:On June 13 2012 17:16 BrownBear wrote:damn gonzaw. I'm impressed. Also I'm glad you reread my posts and came to a better conclusion I can still post the "halfway-there" case I have of you if you want Actually, I'm curious. What have you seen from me that appears scummy?
Your stance on the RNG bit seemed too "safe". You just spouted "pro-town" stuff (that RNG is bad, that policy lynching Ace is bad), but didn't actually take place in the discussion, or tried another alternative to it (at least until your "spark discussion" post).
Then your vote on Palmar only based on the RNG bit, but not his overall behaviour (and it seemed you were rushing to vote, like you were desperately wanting to avoid getting modkilled or something).
Then you shitting on Palmar based on his explanation for the RNG bit, but you never addressing things that were happening in the thread by then.
You apologizing for not being active
You saying you'd spend the night reading the thread and come to a conclusion but once the night ended you never did.
(yes, I reread the part about you not having an internet connection between your "spark" post and your later ones, my bad for not reading carefully >_> )
Meh, I could actually post the case but it would be pointless, and only clutter, so I'll just save it for when I change my mind about you
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Radfield
On June 10 2012 08:23 Radfield wrote:Hizzah! No setup to talk about! No roles to direct! Nothing but cold hard calculation...!No medic and no ability to confirm townies means that every player needs to actually play, and establish themselves. No spamming, no coasting, etc. Given that, lets lynch into the players who are most difficult to find and the players with the best scum play. In this case that's ace and.... uhmmm.... well, just Ace I suppose Seems like a good policy to me!
Here we go, ladies and gentlemen. May I present Exhibit A: The Lie.
I've bolded bits that I: 1) loved to hear Radfield say, and 2) have been infuriated to find he was lying about.
What gets me also is the italicized statement. This is a terrible way to scumhunt. This is a MINI game. If we just lynch into strong scum players (which, by the way, is a lot of people in this game) then the game is just gonna end before we kill any ACTUAL scum. Radfield knows better than this. Radfield can do better than this.
I tried to consider that maybe he was joking. That Radfield didn't actually say this and mean it. However, now I present Exhibit B: The Agenda. This was Radfield's response to Ace's flip...
On June 13 2012 12:53 Radfield wrote:Mafia just did us a favor
I like that mafia teams keep killing off good scum players. Off to bed, I'll post in the morning. BB, you're reading too much into that post. I was just explaining to ace that if I was scummily saving Palmar, the only option was for me and palmar to be scumbuddies, something he refused to just come out and say.
...so he's apparently not joking. What happened to all this analysis he was "so excited" to do? The only thing he's done was NOT help town find a decent lynch candidate D1, but he has refused to do anything but try and shovel shit at Ace.
Here's why Palmar thinks that Radfield is "double-confirmed". 1) Because Radfield's "lynch of choice" on D1 was, not surprisingly, Palmar's lynch of choice. And 2) Because Radfield was arguing with Ace N1 and Ace flipped with the Daypost.
However, Radfield didn't switch off to BrownBear in the end did he? And not only that, but Radfield has spent all of N1 arguing with BB. Over what? His interaction with Ace
Furthermore, Ace flipped with the daypost. Not only does this free up Radfield to go after his second best scum-read (BrownBear OMG THAT'S PALMAR'S LYNCH OF CHOICE! ^^), but it keeps him from having to actually make a case against Ace and try in earnest to get him lynched. Which, after all, was his intent, because again, by his estimation we should be lynching high-level scum players.
Also, Radfield is concerned about Palmar as town when he's scum. This I can attest to, as we were scum together in AA and one of our top priorities that game was to remove Palmar from the game. Sadly, he was bulletproof. And a jerk. And caught us both. But Radfield knows that others are aware of his tendency to get caught by Palmar early game. Radfield also knows that Palmar is someone that knows how to get people to listen to him.
I challenge Radfield to point out any actual content he's contributed to the thread. I further challenge Radfield to explain how lynching known high-level scum players in a high-level, invite-only game is a winning strategy.
Radfield is playing an exceptionally manipulative scum game. It's a wonder he's known for his poor scum play.
Vote for Radfield. Or Hesmyrr. They're both scum. I'm willing to lynch either one.
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word, I see where you're coming from. A large part of this is probably due to me not being as invested in this game as I could or should be, and I'm trying to remedy that as you can see
My vote on Palmar was intended as somewhat of a placeholder (but realistically, I think he should know better than to think RNG is actually a good idea, so that was suspicious to me), then I kept it on him because he pissed me off. For the record, though, I did originally express my intent to vote for Palmar over 24 hours before the deadline (back at page 14), then rushed to put it in the voting thread when I realized we were doing votes there, not in thread.
Regarding the whole "you're taking too long to come to a conclusion" thing, we still have something like 36 hours before the deadline. I think we have time. However, question: considering that barely half the game has posted this cycle, why are you continuing to point out my tardiness?
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above post was to gonzaw btw
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Damn VE, I try to make a case to secure a lynch on scum and ride on to the sunset and you go there and fuck my evening by taking me away from the spotlight 
Which games was Radfield scum in? Arkham Asylum? Anyone else?
Yes, I have to agree that his interaction with Ace before he was shot seemed odd, but like I said I thought his behaviour was town-like in late-D1 and early-N1.
I guess it could still mean he was SK though (although if he was him going against Ace and Ace dying are unrelated...unless he shot Ace as SK and scum shot him/didn't shoot)
On June 13 2012 17:34 BrownBear wrote:
Regarding the whole "you're taking too long to come to a conclusion" thing, we still have something like 36 hours before the deadline. I think we have time. However, question: considering that barely half the game has posted this cycle, why are you continuing to point out my tardiness?
It's what I was asking you about earlier.
You said you'd have a "clearer picture" after spending the night reading. That's a promise you made, and a promise you broke.
Not only that, but it's a "broken promise" scum love to make, they say "I'll spend this whole night/day rereading and then I'll come up with something" and then they just lurk away until they are called out.
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I think his "let's policy lynch Ace because he's good as scum" was indeed a joke, and he reacted that way to Ace's flip out of resentment or something, not because he actually meant that 1st statement of his.
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Gonzaw I want you, someone who isn't Radfield but thinks Radfield is town, to go point to where you think Radfield is doing a good job of analyzing the game and coming to logical conclusions about the gamestate and deciding who he believes is scum please. Also, please point out any instances where Radfield "applies pressure" to someone in the game, to try and get a read of them. And finally, if you could highlight any points where you feel he's doing a splendid job of establishing his townieness to the class, that would just be super fantastic.
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EPT
