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Remember Night actions are due in 4 hours.
We also still need 2 replacements. If none are found in 28 hours we will remove the players that needed to be subbed out from the game
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What about this payle dude? He never returned to the thread, has he?
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On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote:Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote:On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person.
If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow.
I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 2412 (minimum, though I prefer 18) hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote:
The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners.
risk.nuke
Kenpachi
payl
gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot.
ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him.
Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?
I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote.
The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep.
And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me 
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On June 14 2012 09:22 VisceraEyes wrote:Holy shit Payle...you guys wanna kill that dude? Ugh + Show Spoiler +
I'd love to see rasta shoot Zentor, or payle shoot zentor or any other combination but I'd really like zentor to be dead the most honestly.
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On June 14 2012 09:20 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote:Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote:On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person.
If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow.
I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 2412 (minimum, though I prefer 18) hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote:
The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners.
risk.nuke
Kenpachi
payl
gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot.
ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him.
Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?
I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote. The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep. And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me
I'm not singling you out for anything to do with gonzaw. I'm singling you out because you look like ass because you don't have a single solitary scumread in the whole game. Yeah, we have lurkers...it's a problem in EVERY GAME. What you wanna do about it? Wanna shoot them? Who do you think is scum? Why? I don't know anything about you guy, so all I have to base my read on you on is the information you put in the thread....and you haven't been putting any there!
But by all means, continue to pull the newb card while under attack - it's doing wonders for your case for innocence. -.-
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On June 14 2012 09:26 Toadesstern wrote:I'd love to see rasta shoot Zentor, or payle shoot zentor or any other combination but I'd really like zentor to be dead the most honestly.
Yeah I really wouldn't mind a Zentor shot - I have similar misgivings with HIS lack of content, and that guy should fucking know better.
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On June 14 2012 09:27 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:20 rastaban wrote:On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote:Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote:On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person.
If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow.
I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 2412 (minimum, though I prefer 18) hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote:
The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners.
risk.nuke
Kenpachi
payl
gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot.
ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him.
Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?
I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote. The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep. And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me I'm not singling you out for anything to do with gonzaw. I'm singling you out because you look like ass because you don't have a single solitary scumread in the whole game. Yeah, we have lurkers...it's a problem in EVERY GAME. What you wanna do about it? Wanna shoot them? Who do you think is scum? Why? I don't know anything about you guy, so all I have to base my read on you on is the information you put in the thread....and you haven't been putting any there! But by all means, continue to pull the newb card while under attack - it's doing wonders for your case for innocence. -.-
Well played VE, Well played, but you wont get my scum arguments till day comes
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You won't live long enough. I shoot you, the moment day breaks. I'm not interested in your bullshit "reads". I can get your "scumreads" by reverse engineering your hundreds of town-reads. What I'm interested in is your reasoning, because I want to know whether or not to shoot you in the face in the morning....but since you're not interested, I guess you'll just have to DIE.
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Rastaban is scum, so why would you give him the chance of shooting me?
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Woah, what happened to RoL? -.-
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On June 14 2012 09:29 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:27 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 09:20 rastaban wrote:On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote:Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote:On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person.
If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow.
I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 2412 (minimum, though I prefer 18) hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote:
The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners.
risk.nuke
Kenpachi
payl
gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot.
ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him.
Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?
I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote. The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep. And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me I'm not singling you out for anything to do with gonzaw. I'm singling you out because you look like ass because you don't have a single solitary scumread in the whole game. Yeah, we have lurkers...it's a problem in EVERY GAME. What you wanna do about it? Wanna shoot them? Who do you think is scum? Why? I don't know anything about you guy, so all I have to base my read on you on is the information you put in the thread....and you haven't been putting any there! But by all means, continue to pull the newb card while under attack - it's doing wonders for your case for innocence. -.- Well played VE, Well played, but you wont get my scum arguments till day comes
"till day comes"
you're lucky Radfield isn't in this game, right toad? :-)
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RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum.
He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power.
On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting.
These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment?
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zentor your stance on him seems to have shifted from this:
On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote:
RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role.
[...]
Which was another post that jumped out at me during my re-reading because it seemed to leave open the possibility for you to do exactly what you just did.
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If RoL is scum,
then there aren't any other millers, or the other miller(s) think there might be more than one (hence no other miller claims when millers should have claimed D1)
and there is no medic, or the real medic is too afraid to come out.
I don't see that as likely.
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On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment?
RoL is pretty obviously town, and I don't get where people keep trying to say that he talked down millers and then claimed. If you read what he says he says there isn't much benefit in claiming miller and then proceeds to say since there isn't a down side (and only a small benefit) he might as well claim. The end result being in his opinion a small benefit to town.
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Rastaban, did you even read it?
He clearly stated that people would be suspicious of him; people being suspicious of an innocent person is a pretty terrible drawback to claiming miller.
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On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment?
The only downside I mentioned is if I claimed and instead of the town believing me or at least not questioning me that much until it was necessary that the entire town actually just called me scum for claiming or some other shenanigans. Even before I had my gun taken the entire discussion turned to me being a Miller and whether or not I was scum.
As I said, the only downside is if you all chose to focus on me + the claim. Claiming puts pressure on me to play a really protown game which I intend to do when the day post comes.
This downside depends on the towns attitude and whether or not you guys are stupid even to solely focus on me and my claim or actually do important shit. The actual benefits were in a few limited scenarios it would save a DT claiming and a wasted day shot which didn't depend on town stupidity but on how the game played out.
I basically weighed the possible game outcome of the DT ending up checking me vs the odds of you all being dumb. Since town stupidity is something we can analyze and don't have to attribute to luck we can punish people for that, however if it comes down to the DT scenario or one like it it is completely luck based which would benefit the mafia.
You guys are proving that I wagered wrong by focusing on this so much. The only time it deserved attention was when I claimed I didn't have a gun.
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RoL Victory Plan
1. Make ridiculous claims
2. Lurk
3. Call thread stupid
4. ???
5. Profit!
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On June 14 2012 12:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
RoL Victory Plan
1. Make ridiculous claims
2. Lurk
3. Call thread stupid
4. ???
5. Profit!
wow im liking it
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.qkme.me/3ppbv8.jpg)
