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Kenpachi you have 4 fucking posts.
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Out of sheer spite I'm shooting you as soon as the day post goes up.
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Ken you're here! Who are you going to shoot tomorrow?
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Wait let him shoot RoL! If he's town he's bound to hit scum right?
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On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment?
So zentor you've been lurking for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on?
ALSO NO MORE FINALS!!!
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To clarify that last post, nicely done commenting on something that has been discussed to death. What about rastaban?
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On June 14 2012 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? So zentor you've been lurking for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on? ALSO NO MORE FINALS!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
MZ you lurk for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on?
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I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi.
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On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi.
Do you have anything original to add?
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On June 14 2012 12:09 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Out of sheer spite I'm shooting you as soon as the day post goes up.
Is this a joke or are you now claiming that you're able to shoot?
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On June 14 2012 12:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. Do you have anything original to add?
You're annoying.
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I'm off to play some celebratory LoL, I'll check the thread when I'm done.
I'm really liking the idea of having rastaban shoot zentor, thoughts?
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On June 14 2012 12:16 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:09 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Out of sheer spite I'm shooting you as soon as the day post goes up. Is this a joke or are you now claiming that you're able to shoot?
He has stated in the past that it was temporary
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On June 14 2012 12:24 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:16 talismania wrote:On June 14 2012 12:09 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Out of sheer spite I'm shooting you as soon as the day post goes up. Is this a joke or are you now claiming that you're able to shoot? He has stated in the past that it was temporary
What does this mean?
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It means he can't shoot for one day.
And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original?
Speaking of original content, I'd like some from you.
Look at your last posts from the night.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 13 2012 12:10 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Check it out, Kita AND zentor show up to tell us how dumb we are.
Would have been just snazzy if you gentleman had actually been around during the day. On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский On June 14 2012 05:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 04:39 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский lol MZ any thoughts you wanna share? atm I'm at school getting ready for my last final so no lol. I still wanna kill zentor and the rastaban case looks decent from what I can tell. On June 14 2012 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? So zentor you've been lurking for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on? ALSO NO MORE FINALS!!! On June 14 2012 12:13 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
To clarify that last post, nicely done commenting on something that has been discussed to death. What about rastaban? On June 14 2012 12:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. Do you have anything original to add? On June 14 2012 12:23 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I'm off to play some celebratory LoL, I'll check the thread when I'm done.
I'm really liking the idea of having rastaban shoot zentor, thoughts?
What can a reader get from these posts?
That you want me dead, you like the Rastaban case, and you think I lurked a bunch.
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I don't know its one day, all I know is its temporary. I would imagine its one day though.
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Cephiro or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Serial Killer
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 12:34 Cephiro wrote:On June 11 2012 16:10 supersoft wrote:
lol okay, now I got it. This setup is perfect for me.
Ahm let's discuss the dayshooting:
Should VTs shoot day1, to maximize their number of KP? If this setup is perfect for you, how come you are even asking if VTs should shoot d1? It's quite obvious in my opinion that they should, as it's our only reliable way of killing scum. No lynches in this game, as can be seen from the op. So why would we want to give the scum + a possible SK a free night to kill townies with? 4 Mafia in the game, can't be that hard trying to find one, especially as we start from N0, we will have something to go by on D1. On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote:
Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1.
If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days). The thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote:
If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia.
You seem to be certain in your claim that there are three regular mafia. Explain? On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote:
We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out. Same question to you. Earlier you were like you didn't know there could be additional/modified roles than the ones listed in the OP, and now you seem like you are taking a framer for certain. How come?
Regarding RoL's miller claim, at the moment I'd prefer to see him take the shot late tomorrow if he survives the night, with reasons why he chose that specific target (whomever he picks, if we proceed with the miller-takes-the-shot-plan.) Obviously in my opinion even though he should be the one suggesting his target, we should not let him get away if he decides to take a random shot at someone most of the town does not agree with, especially if it's not backed up with arguments. On June 12 2012 05:58 supersoft wrote:
Wish i was VT. Maybe I am... Maybe not... And the point of this is? Maybe you'd like to take a shot at someone? On June 12 2012 06:04 supersoft wrote:
If I was VT, I would agree on that. Moreover would I assure, that I will shoot anyone that shoots townies without discussion. And 6 minutes later you claim not VT. I'll let everyone make their own assumptions about this. @ wbg, more useful content please. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. I agree with these points. On June 12 2012 08:48 gonzaw wrote:Anyways, damn, I really want to start some analysis, but this whole night is just a bunch of discussion about plans  If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. (Of course a larger sample size is always better, but sometimes you can get a good start with just a little.) Adding to what you were talking about medics, if they find out that they are insane, they should stop protecting VT's unless the 50% chance is crucial for our survival and still having a shot at winning the game for town. Marv makes a small analysis post on RoL's miller claim, Toad performs the bandwagon jump surprisingly fast, I do not like. On June 12 2012 10:30 gonzaw wrote:Yeah I got carried away when I mentioned the watcher  He's under scrutiny just by claiming Miller. Mafia may take the chance to shoot him tonight or on N1 just because of the reasons I presented previously. The "real" game hasn't started yet (the analysis and shit), so there's really no behaviour that can convince me Rol is GF (like I said his claim alone makes me think its legit). Anyways I gotta eat so I'll expand later Everyone should be under scrutiny. Not just someone claiming Miller. I don't like how you state that the real game hasn't started yet, and you give an absolute "There is really no behaviour that can convince me RoL is GF", just because in your opinion the game hasn't started yet? + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 10:35 talismania wrote:I've realized that an idea I had after Space Station might be applicable here. I was saving it up for a game with a mayoral election and PMs, but I then saw that in this game we all get to be mayor! So here's the outlines of the idea. The goal is to catch scum out in the long run by forcing them to post cases, suspicions, etc. Scum operate by feeling out the thread, sensing where discussion is going and nudging it along in a favorable direction or whatever. Blending in and all that jazz. To make it harder for this to happen (and to simultaneously make it so that everyone is playing harder), I came up with this proposal. (1) Everyone has to pick one person to make a case on, for why they think that person is scum. You have to actually make the case, like you're radfield or qatol or whatever. Nice decent-length post. (2) Everyone reveals their case at the same time (a good time would be near daybreak). This is the part that makes it hard for scum to blend in. (3) Note that there's extra information to be had here: who participated and who didn't. And why did the people who didn't participate not do so? (4) We take a look at the cases and go from there. FAQ: What's this good for again?
--Forces participation / thread reading --Forces scum to make their own cases rather than hanging back --Additional information: HOW do people make their cases etc --When someone flips scum, there's a wealth of information to look back on. Who did they make a case on? Who made a case on them? Etc etc How the fuck do you get everyone on the thread at the same time?
--You don't need to. You can post your case before the deadline but encrypt it using http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html and then post the key later. Yay encryption! What's wrong with just posting our cases as we make them?--Nothing really. That's obviously how every other game is played. But doing it this way can force everyone to play harder, better, etc. See the first question. It's not like posting has to stop until the cases are made or anything. Does it have to be a case on a single person?--All that matters for point (1) above is that it's something agreed to by everyone. It could be a case on a single person. It could be reads on everyone in the game. It could be a top four list of scum contenders. Whatever we think generates the most information. Your point (4) - how do we get from this to a lynch?--Nothing in particular. This acts as an info dump. We can get from it to the shooting however we want. Boohoo it will spam the thread up!
--Suck it up and play the game. Mafia is about reading things and making decisions. If you're concerned about this, then we can all put our encrypted cases in spoiler tags. ___________ I will do this for sure. Anyone with me? This is totally unrelated and unnecessary in my opinion. Why would we need such special case plans to find out who's scum? Just play like the game is usually played. If you think someone is scum, make a case, or convince others why that someone is scum. Random ideas for how we should play the game are not needed, concentrate on scumhunting instead of making these. Weak start. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote:
Yeah I'm not really putting too much effort this game for now (other than just coming up with a plan of action).
Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm?
Mostly because I expect to get shot tonight, so anything I do would basically be pointless (I knew that in pre-game though).
.... I don't even know what to say to this. You don't even know your role pre-game, why would you expect to get shot on N0 before the game has even started? I don't like that attitude at all. You can't play mafia going into the game thinking "I'm going to die soon anyway so anything I do is pointless." You have to make the best out of it while you are alive. If you die and are a townie, you better have made the time you were alive count for your teammates to take the game for you.
And no, the "real" game hasn't started because there's basically nothing to analyze or to respond to. There aren't any cases, or people's thoughts on other players, and I'm lazy to check each filter to try and gauge a read out of people just by their opinion on the plans presented.
Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours?
My points to gonzaw in bolded.
Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)... I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion.
Cephiro asks questions of everone, but has no opinion of his own
Look at this line If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. Yet we will never get any analysis from him.
How about thisThe thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. We can't sit around and yet that is all he does this whole game
@ wbg, more useful content please. why doesnt he set an example
I agree with these points. why.... well as you will continue to see reasons are never given for any of his agreements or disagreements
Here are two more comments to Gonzaw on why Gonzaw needs to analyze more instead of himself
Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm? and
Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours?
All this babble about everything being analyzable and how Gonzaw is lazy but he doesn't give a single read himself... why doesn't Cephiro care enough to do it?
Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)...
I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion.
The other part to notice is his infatuation with an SK being in the game. While bad for town, this is very bad for mafia as they can get in a situation where they can not kill him since they cant lynch. You will notice this comes up again later.
On June 12 2012 13:09 Cephiro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
Because I had the feeling I would. I've been shot N1 in 2 out of 3 games I've been town...and in like 90% of the games I've been town in UG mafia.
Knowing that and knowing that there wasn't going to be any meaningful discussion going on (that wasn't related to the setup) it just disheartens you a little bit and doesn't put you in the right mood. Even if you felt like you had tough luck surviving, you should never start a game with "I've given up"-attitude, and maybe pick up your play if happened to survive. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
What do you think of marv's aggressiveness towards RoL and me Cephiro? I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? One thing I would keep an eye on is if he starts accusing multiple people with very little reasoning. (Which he has not yet, in my opinion.)
Once again no content, plans or reads just small talk
I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. He partially understands, agreeing to disagree, these are tell tale signs of mafia ambivalence.
Now check out his final lines
I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0?
He encourages marv passively while being vague about what he dislikes. Which of Marv's points are valid, which aren't we don't get to know. He says why wait for day time, but then he doesn't do anything. This is twice now that he pushes people to do things he isn't. I think this is huge, who says that they disagree with your points for wanting to kill, and then not only not explain why, but actively encourage it?
On June 12 2012 13:27 Cephiro wrote:
In all honesty, I was pretty much assuming there would be 2 nightkills as well, since I found the possibility of an SK being in-game very likely, and I'm having a hard time understanding if there is an SK, why would they leave the kill for the daytime, as a trigger-happy townie could just take a shot before him and thus modkill him?
I think I might've misunderstood something in the way a possible SK works, but there's always a possibility there is no SK, or that there is an SK but with different restrictions than in the example role given in the OP.
I don't see why mafia would not shoot on N0, as there is necessarily no tracker/watcher, and the chances of getting caught on N0 aren't that high, so I suspect that the kill was the mafia KP. They need every kill they can get.
Enough assuming and more playing I suppose.
So chaoser, you really seem to want gonzaw to shoot, which I understand, but I don't like the idea of him doing it right away, as we haven't really even have a chance to discuss with the majority of the players. (Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?). Especially as the "miller-takes-the-shot-plan" seemed to gain some attention last phase.
Another condemning post. Once again we have more infatuation with the SK.
All the gonzow discussion going on and all we get from Cephiro is at the end he thinks it could be ok to kill him immediately if it means the killing of the SK. Why is he again mentioning the SK,
What kind of Towney spends 2 of their 3 posts on tracking down the SK? I think this is scum trying to tack down their competitor and trying to seem town. He even shows he hasn't paid much attention as he also is fine with the shoot the miller plan instead of the current one. Notice how he gives no input on this plan or the Gonzaw shot (other than to possibly delay the shot unless maybe they can get the SK)
In conclusion Cephiro is Mafia and hoping to skate along unnoticed. He constantly worries about a Serial Killer, not about mafia. He then asks lots of questions but never gives an opinion. He mentions that he both agrees and disagrees with the arguments about Gonzaw but we never get an explanation for either.
But most of all He doesn't care. He posts without caring about the results because he already knows the neither of them are scum so it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care to review or analyze or to try and find a plan because it doesn't affect his win condition. Cephiro just wants to see the world burn
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Night 1![[image loading]](http://www.fictopedia.net/w/images/thumb/f/f8/Dueling_Claymores.jpg/350px-Dueling_Claymores.jpg)
chaoser, Ascetic Gunsmith has been killed
+ Show Spoiler [Role] +
Welcome to Bang Bang Mafia 2!
You are a Gunsmith!
You have the ability at night to check any player and find out if they are carrying a gun. While this is all good and dandy there is a catch! You are ASCETIC. This role modifier means that every action targeting you except for Night Kills will fail. You win when you eliminate all anti-Town players. Good luck!
VisceraEyes, the Vanilla Towny has been killed
+ Show Spoiler [Role] +
Vanilla Towny -
You are a Vanilla Towny. You've had enough. No more sitting around voting on who's guilty. You've got a gun, and people will learn to listen to you or get bent. Any time during the day you may type ##kill(##Kill): player in the thread and shoot them. The day will end once you shoot. Once you have shot, you have to wait X number of days to shoot again where X is based on the total number of times you've shot during the game. So if you've shot at 2 people during the game, you have to wait 2 days before shooting again.
You win when all anti-town players are eliminated. Good luck!
It is now Day 2. 16 players alive, 4 dead bodies in the cemetery out back. You have 24 hours to carry out justice. Good luck!
Day 2 ends at 12:00 AM ET / 13:00 KST on Friday June 15th.
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EPT
