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wherebugsgo
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not really a magic fan but a fan of normal minis  edit: the detective role mentions millers but there are no millers mentioned in the possible roles. Is this an oversight or are there millers? edit 2: the variable slots in the OP have not been updated for specifics | ||
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A few notes I want to share with everyone: 1. Please don't lurk. 2. With that said, please don't spam either; if we have like 50 pages by the end of d1 it'll probably be looking really good for mafia. 3. If you are a blue role: don't breadcrumbyour role; you may choose to breadcrumb your actions, as that is more useful (and much harder to fake for scum). Don't play diffferently simply because you have a power role; scum will notice. 4. DTs: choose players who are unlikely to be framed or shot n1. Choose players who you think will live for a while. 5. Medics/JK: don't bluehunt, just protect the most sensible townies. 6. Vigis: don't be MrZentor (case in point: Game of Thrones) 7. Veterans: please don't do stupid shit to try to ensure you get shot. Chances are far stronger you'll be lynched for being a moron than take a bullet from scum. Anyway, all general advice and all stuff most of you should know, but read it over anyway. On May 21 2012 04:45 Nova_Terra wrote: Yaaaaaay! Should we get rid of a veteran? should we? I THINK SO :D ##Vote: VisceraEyes I don't support policy lynching but I do agree we should keep an eye on VE because his play can be quite erratic. If he's the focus of attention as either alignment it becomes very difficult to discern what he is. So for now I think we should look elsewhere so we don't have that problem, and let VE decide for himself what he wants to do. | ||
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If the advice makes sense, follow it. If not, don't. The question of "is this guy scum" has nothing to do with that. | ||
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On May 22 2012 01:26 Nova_Terra wrote: as of yet i would be fine with either a Navillus or WBG lynch Navillus, if I remember correctly, said he wanted to kill me (whether seriously or not, who cares) Nova seemingly wants to jump on any person who is getting traction for a lynch. Namely, since I was gone and Navillus voted me, I was a good choice. Note how Nova never once mentions me before this post. He addresses my posts but expressly avoids saying that he finds my advice post indicative of me being scum or anything like that when I react. On the other hand, people have found Navillus suspicious for his not-so-serious vote on me. While it is a bit suspicious in itself, I find it more suspicious that plenty of people are so willing to kill him based on almost nothing at all. One of those players is nova. | ||
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If you're town, stop being disruptive and start using your head. Otherwise, you die today. ##vote Nova_Terra | ||
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On May 22 2012 05:52 VisceraEyes wrote: 4/15 huh? 2 families of 2 I'm guessing? What do you think Bugs? ?? I don't think that's balanced at all; normally a 16 player game has 4 mafia on one team. As this is a 15 player game I would expect that to be true as well. | ||
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Katina how sure are you of Nova being scum? | ||
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here it is again: How sure are you that Nova is scum? | ||
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I'm fine with killing Katina, VE, and mold man, in that order. Katina normally reads the thread and she usually has more than one read. She also at the very least explains herself to townies. It's clear that she's deliberately ignoring my questions, possibly because she doesn't actually believe in her "case" on Nova (i.e she is scum) By the time I asked Katina the first time how sure she was of Nova being scum I had started to think he was town. Now, it is day 1, and I may be completely wrong about my assessment, but the way the bandwagons have gone today suggest either that both nova and mouldy are town or that one of them is scum. Based on the nova votes just now I'm inclined to think mouldy is scum. Of course, we'll never know the truth unless they flip. As there's not much time left in the day I think we should kill mouldy. If anyone else agrees with me that we should kill Katina or VE, let me know and perhaps we can get a vote switch going. I'll be around till deadline. ##unvote ##vote Mouldy Jeb PS. Anyone notice that Katina says she hates people using the noob card, but hasn't really expressed suspicion of mouldy? (at least, from what I recall) | ||
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I don't particularly care for team balance considerations unless the host is known to balance games like that. When you don't know, it's a fruitless avenue of discussion. So, unless you want to tell me you know how Artanis sets his games up, I don't see why we should be discussing anything regarding team balance. Regarding Nova, I'm not confident that he's scum. Maybe I'm just second guessing myself but I don't think he's the best candidate right now. It's possible also that both wagons today are wrong and the scum are just voting however they see fit. This may explain the "too easy" feeling. As for why I think you're scum; let's just say that dependent on the flip, that feeling may persist or it may go away. I have no reason to reveal any of my motives or reasons right now when neither you nor katina are in any danger of being lynched. Hell, it may even be possible that I don't believe that you're both scum. I do support a mouldy lynch today, though. If he's not arsed to even defend himself I see no reason to believe he's town. | ||
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If you recall I was on your case last game because I didn't like how disruptive your play was. You chose to save scum that game. Yet, you still flipped town. So how is it that you are to be held accountable? | ||
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Why is nova scum other than "he's scummy scum scum" and "he was posting like a jester"? What are some reasons nova is scum over, say, Mattchew or Tunkeg or Katina? Or even mold man over here? What makes mouldy a bad lynch and nova a good one, specifically? If there is one question you'd answer, I'd prefer it be this. | ||
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Only his first game seems to be an anomaly with 5 pages after 9-10 days but that's still quite a lot (especially for a newbie game) So why is it, Katina, that you're trying to pass off Nova's spam as exclusively a scum trait? | ||
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On May 23 2012 06:49 VisceraEyes wrote: VCA is Vote-Count Analysis. Bugs was saying that he was judging who is scum based on the movement of the wagons, and pretty much no other reason. That's a cop-out, especially considering how little information that REALLY yields at this point because we have no flips to work with. Which is why I said I'd very much like it if mold man flips. You seem to be selectively tunneled against me, almost as if whatever I do, you'll appear on the opposite side of it. Pretty sure if I was on nova you'd rather want to kill mold man. After all it seemed as if when my vote was still on nova you switched briefly to try to kill mouldy (and vice versa) I also like how you called out navillus's vote on mouldy but not tunkeg's on nova. Any reason you're blind to anything scummy unless it's on my side of the wagon? | ||
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Also while I still think NT is probably town, rereading him and looking at recent posts one unsettling trend is his constantly talking about his own meta and how he's matching it, I haven't seen many town who pay so much attention to their own meta, usually as town one would just think I'm playing town, it's gonna match my town meta. Scum have to pay more attention because their behavior is going to change and they have to make an effort to keep it as much the same as they can. Frankly once it's clear that he's paying so much attention to his meta, meta arguments that would point to him being town are pretty much useless since he's obviously making a real effort to keep with his town meta. This is probably the strongest argument I've seen so far for Nova being scum. This is a tough lynch. I'm just going to hope for the best and then evaluate after the flip, I guess that's the best we can do for now. | ||
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I'll post my thoughts before lynch in case I'm shot. If you have questions feel free to ask and I'll answer them together in that post. (so 23ish hours from now) | ||
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Probably flip a coin really, they're both obviously faking trying to look town. | ||
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Zealos and Tunkeg are still good bets to flip scum IMO. Mattchew and Nova are annoying, which could mean anything. VE is sheeping more than normal, which is somewhat scummy. Katina's hard to read but if she's even somewhat transparent and correct about some of her reads then probably isn't scum. I can't even remember half the names of the rest of you, since you're so unimpressionable. Great if you're scum and obviously terrible if you're town. | ||
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my reasoning is clearly laid out and has nothing to do with him...and Nova is...still scum. ..and Nova is...still scum. insert "I don't always have reason to call people scum But when I say I do, I don't".jpg | ||
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Acid who would you kill today? | ||
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Let's do this bugs. Not later. Now. If we both live until tomorrow this is happening anyway, so let's just get it over with. I think you're scum. It's your turn to think I'm scum and vote for me. So it's clear that you WANT me to retaliate and call you scum? Well, I could, but then what would happen? The thread would explode, discussion would be quelled, and even if you flip scum there still wouldn't be much forward progress. Most of that post is just stretching to the extreme. I find it hard to believe that a townie would do such a thing, but you have done equally, if not more perplexing things before as town. For example, listing Ace and myself as your top 2 scumreads in liar game simply because you didn't like our playstyles. Or saving sandro just cause you felt like a rebel. So, if you are indeed scum, I'd rather just kill all your buddies first, and then leave you for last. Why? Since, if you are indeed scum, you'll be a bit more afraid to shoot me. Why else would you be concerned about balance? I've never heard you use a balance argument before as town and I would never have expected you to start now. I'm going to wait on Acid to respond to my posts. As long as you're trying to kill me though, I'm going to ignore you from now on, though. Sadly I don't have a gun or I'd have talked with that instead of words. | ||
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Think about ET being shot, and reread some of the only posts made on him. Tunkeg made an ET accusation that was completely ignored. ET was relatively vocal, and from what I recall several people called him town. Each time you've accused me of ignoring you both in this game and others there's two explanations: I'm afk when you are here or I've already addressed you and you simply don't find it satisfactory. My problem? Not really. Anyway, if you want to work together then you might as well stop calling me scum, since I'm not. | ||
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Since my original post got buried: Acid, thoughts on Zealos and Tunkeg please, since you ignored talking about them earlier. Perhaps thoughts on froggy and VE as well. | ||
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If that wasn't painfully obvious maybe it is now that I've had to say it because the implication didn't get through your thickheadedness before. @Navillus: truthfully I wasn't ever okay with a VE switch, I was unsure of him as I am now and wanted opinions. Sadly no one really came forth with any counter push or even thoughts so the only thoughts I have on VE are my own. I have my own thoughts on most of the players but from experience it makes no sense to publicly share them until I feel like I have the information I want. Katina, care to weigh in on who you want to lynch? | ||
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<peeks around a corner> Anyway if Acid never responds, we kill him. To make that threat more real, let's turn up the heat. ##vote Acid~ Nova, do you support a lynch of any of Acid, zealos, or Tunkeg? | ||
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What is it, bored of rolling VT? Don't know how to play? Too scared to be wrong? Afk? Other games? D3? Most of those reasons can be countered by "don't sign up if you can't play" and that's pretty annoying to do. The usual last resort in this case is to kill scummy lurkers. Though, it's pretty hard to just kill lurkers when they have a higher chance of flipping town than scum. If no one has realized yet that the voting system and town to scum ratio combined tremendously favors scum, and in a way that forces town to be active, then the game's probably over. We won't be able to kill the scum fast enough because we lose voting influence rapidly. So, it's now or never. | ||
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If the threat isn't real then what's the point of trying to consolidate town? If a player is not willing to even answer a simple question then the easiest way to deal with them is to kill them. | ||
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I'm curious to see whether VE will touch the lynch now, though. ##unvote Acid~ ##vote Zealos Had you answered oppositely I'd probably have tried to kill you with Zealos. If Zealos is scum then hopefully we can flush out his teammates soon. | ||
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On May 24 2012 18:51 marvellosity wrote: That is not 'he is my strongest scumread'. If we're in Day 2 and your strongest read on someone is based on not answering a question, we are in trouble. Had he chosen to continue ignoring a common subject when brought to his attention so blatantly (and choosing instead to defend himself) he clearly would've been my strongest scumread. As of now he's off the hook but I can't say any of you look particularly good. It still bothers me, for example, how little effort Katina is putting in when I know she has strong reads as town. So far she has not weighed in at all but in the past she has done this as town too. | ||
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Anyway there are two lynches I'll accept today; one of them is Zealos and the other one I won't name for now. | ||
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Stop to think of why he may not be getting as many votes as we want him to. Stop and reread his posts. | ||
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It should be obvious I want the townies in this game to do work. If I just say everything then town dies when I die. | ||
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Can you name a single player that has actually defended Zealos? | ||
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Think about it, everyone calls him suspicious but their votes end up elsewhere. VE at this point is just being annoying and confrontational. I don't particularly care right now why he keeps calling me scum, since he's obviously wrong, but if today's lynch does not fall on scum then I'll take the responsibility for the lynch. You can lynch me after and town can lose. | ||
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On May 25 2012 01:58 Acid~ wrote: I said I'd be OK for a Zealos lynch. I'm willing to change my vote from zelblade to Zealos if you can tell me why you think zelblade isn't scum. Whether or not Zealos is scum at this point has absolutely nothing to do with zelblade's alignment and therefore I'm obligated to do anything for you in terms of showing you that zelblade is town or whatever. Either you think Zealos is scum or not. Right now I don't feel like sparing very much effort since there's no point when more than half of you don't read to begin with. | ||
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My phone likes erasing things | ||
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Based on that alone I think there are at least two viable targets, but neither of them has received much attention. I'm gonna sleep on it for a bit and then if this Zealos thing doesn't take off I'll make a stronger case. | ||
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You've called me scum in every single game we've played for the past five games pretty much indiscriminately and you wonder why after a certain point I ignore you? | ||
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Clearly if I call katina scum at that point it probably means I don't think nova is scum anymore. Or at the very least, that I think others are scummier. | ||
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Anyway, Katina where are you? | ||
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on day 1 my bar wasn't very high, it was to get a scummy person lynched. Mouldy got lynched without much effort so beyond that I didn't reveal much. | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:57 Katina wrote: Just finished reading the thread dear. Lots of pages to read this morning. I really like how people are so focused on me when there are clearly scummy people like N_T and Mattchew. One of those two should be the top lynch candidates for today hands down. N_T has not nearly been as active today as he has been from the start of the game. Neither have you, or for that matter, a bunch of other players I could name. So what reason is there for singling out nova? On May 25 2012 02:57 Katina wrote: He wants to kill me only bescause I'm pushing for him hard. He has been staying in the shadows today and only poking his head out when the votes start coming in on another player. May I bring up my past arguements against him: 1. Spam! 2. Spam! You agreed that spam is not alignment indicative for nova, so why are you again bringing it up? Hasn't VE spammed as well? Why are you not on his case for the same reason? On May 25 2012 02:57 Katina wrote: 3. More focused on proving his innocence than scum hunting (unless you want to call his only scum read on me as "scum hunting".) Do you actually think this is alignment indicative? I think almost anyone does this. On May 25 2012 02:57 Katina wrote: 4. Inconsistent Can you point out the specific instances of inconsistency? On May 25 2012 02:57 Katina wrote: As for Mattchew, I mean really? Do I even have to explain why I think he's scum and want to lynch him? He has been completely ignoring me when I have called him out. Wait. He ignores just about everything and only comments when he has a qoute for it. He's not being helpful at all to the town and it annoys me that he is still alive and not being considered for the lynch. Others have commented on how annoying his qoutes are but yet no one has felt the need to vote for him. sure, he's annoying. Does annoying equal scum? Mattchew normally annoys me in games actually, this is the first time I've seen him play in character. Not the best choice as lynches go but as it can run as an excuse not to post seriously it is possible he might be scum. Mattchew would you be willing to play seriously from now on out? Your posts are incredibly annoying in their current form, and given how few people are actually playing to win it'd be nice if we didn't have to wade through more difficult nonsense. | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:45 VisceraEyes wrote: You still haven't revealed much. Why are you suspicious of Zealos Bugs? Why do you want Acid dead other than "He didn't answer my question" even though he did? the case on zealos is pretty straightforward. You've reiterated it yourself. Zealos claimed to have no scumreads on d1, and continued to do so into day 2, until the hiropro stuff basically. He's displaying a distinct lack of effort in terms of finding scum and when he does make cases they seem incredibly forced. He said he thought Jeb was town but still voted to kill him. That's the most damning reason. the only problem with zealos being scum is that scum don't often blatantly admit they've done such a scummy thing, but I suppose scum have done more blatant and scummy things before. Anyway, I'm going to hold out till 22:00 GMT (+00:00) (4 hours from now) and if activity is relatively unchanged till then, I'll share more of my thoughts. On May 25 2012 02:48 marvellosity wrote: I didn't quite know how to answer this in a coherent manner, so I've used red, blue and green to highlight. Now, he didn't answer you directly, but he answered your red question in the same colour, ditto with the blue question. As for the green, I'm specifically pointing at what bugs wrote. The point is that the question about two families of course did not need to be addressed, but doing so does not give information about reads to scum, therefore there was no potential harm in doing so. That's how I read it and it seems reasonable. I like you, you can read. | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:13 Acid~ wrote: And I'm not obligated to follow your directions. Who made you king of the fucking hill? My strongest scumread is Zelblade right now and I intend to push for his death unless someone either 1. makes a case for zelblade's innocence (good luck) 2. makes a stronger case for another lynch As I said, the case against Zealos is not inexistant, but it's not strong either. You realize that in order to kill someone in this game, you have to convince them of your correctness? In other words if you want us to kill zelblade over zealos then you should convince us to kill him instead of telling us to convince you to not kill zelblade. It's called burden of proof; the burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion. If you make the assertion that zelblade is scum, then YOU should be the one to explain it. No one is obligated to show you why zelblade is innocent or whatever. As town I don't even know if zelblade is innocent. Anyway, the case on Zealos has already been put forth; read Marvellosity's filter. If you don't want to do that then I don't see how you expect to win, as reading is mandatory to do almost anything else in a game of mafia. You call the zealos case not strong. What parts of it are weak? | ||
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I want to see a mafia flip today and I don't think continuing this path of discussion will help us reach that goal. I agree that zelblade is scummy but solely because he hasn't posted much. However, compared to the other lurkers his posting style specifically doesn't come off to me as scummy. His thoughts seem genuine and his logic is clear. If he were scum I don't think that would be apparent. I could very well be wrong, but I really want to see zelblade post more. | ||
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Of the two, I think Zelblade is more dangerous. He hasn't posted a single analysis or scumread and was content with bandwagoning Mouldy Jeb. That's your case on zelblade. There is almost nothing to argue here, the only reason zelblade is suspicious is because he hasn't posted. | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:43 Tunkeg wrote: This can very well be the scumteam. NT, Mattchew and Zealos where my strongest day one scumreads. And I think you are perfectly right about WBG, I get a stronger and stronger feeling that he is scum. I also find it wierd that Mattchew suddenly start posting, now that you are fireing at WBG. Makes me think that the scumteam have decided that he needs to start posting and help out WBG. So even if these guys are giving you a hard time don't give up VE. They do it because they are scum. I almost want to kill you just because of this post. I don't actually think you are this dumb. | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:52 Mattchew wrote: He lurks, lies, empty promises, and has contradictions WBG I'll give you the first one and the third one, the others I don't see. | ||
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Day's almost half over and if people aren't willing to consolidate on zealos then we consolidate on zelblade. He needs to post anyway. Vote with me, marv. ##unvote Zealos ##vote Zelblade. | ||
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We have no idea at this point but we need to work together to kill scum. There are merits for both lynches. | ||
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you guys realize that it's 9v4, right? It will require at least 4 of us to be correct on a single lynch to ensure that scum die. If we cannot agree on zealos or zelblade then it might even be better to kill someone like tunkeg. Neither zealos nor zelblade seem particularly interested in defending themselves. No one else wants to defend them either. This is not an easy situation to be in, but there's not much we can do outside of just waiting a few hours. Continuing the way we're going is just going to cause us to lose faster. | ||
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However if we can't get more than 3 votes on him and arguing about the case further is just causing problems in the thread we need to explore other avenues. Butting heads is just causing the thread to go up in flames. There are four scum and they're more than a third of the playerbase. We don't need to solely focus on one person. | ||
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 if zelblade is to post there needs to be a threat for his death. If he is indeed a townie who is inactive I hope he gets modkilled and the second highest vote getter gets lynched but we can't run that risk either. Losing a townie to a lynch or modkill right now puts us in a really shitty position if the mafia night kill goes through. I'm not convinced zelblade is scum because I didn't find that his tone fit him being scum. When he has been scum in previous games he's seemed more unsure and on the fence in his posts than in this game. He has some of those same attributes but I don't think the extent is the same. The glaring problem though is that he has almost no posts at all and he has been inactive for like 36 hours. Zealos has posts and yet is still scummy; we have more information to work with there. Votes don't stick to him and no one defends him, but what's leaving me unsure is the way he himself admitted to voting someone who he thought was more likely to flip town than scum. It's just an odd thing for a scum to do, as opposed to just saying he thought mouldy was scum. | ||
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On May 25 2012 04:56 Acid~ wrote: How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!" This is true in almost every single case where you find scum. Unless scum are bad they don't leave massive trails that just lead back to them. Zealos is not a bad scum player in the least and if it were that easy to find scum we would've killed one yesterday. And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask. "If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?" You're simply asserting here that it's hard to see the scum agenda. Scum don't like making cases because they already have information about who is town and who is not. Town will at the very least try to scumhunt. Zealos made no real attempt at that on day 1. He admitted himself he thought 13 players were town and one town but less so. That's just a massive cop out from calling anyone scum, a huge shirking of responsibility. It's a sign he doesn't know who to call out for fear of being caught. Finally, what playstyle? It's not a simple question because the underlying assumptions aren't even properly stated. How can you define a player's playstyle so simply? We don't even know what you're asking. Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night. Going inactive and not scumhunting are about as antitown as you can get. What I'm curious about is why you seem to assert that zelblade's inactivity is so much more incriminating of him than zealos. You haven't really justified anything you've said, just asserted it. | ||
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Froggy any particular reason you've been absent all this time? Why did you not vote for nova or mouldy yesterday? Today I see you voting nova. At what point did you believe him to be scum? | ||
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On May 25 2012 05:58 Acid~ wrote: You're right, I wasn't actually trying to convince anyone here, just explaining my train of thought. Now keep in mind this is my first *TL* mafia and I don't know any of you. I don't know anyone's meta so my analysis is based entirely on what goes on in this thread and general knowledge about mafia games. Not knowing Zealos, to me he could be a confused or mediocre town player just as much as he could be scum. Zelblade, however, I feel he should be carrying a sign that says "please oh please god don't look at me I just want to live through this day so I can use my power at night". what exactly has zelblade done (other than lurking) that has said that? Just out of curiosity | ||
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##unvote zelblade ##vote zealos I dunno if I did that yet, but just in case. Reading now. $10 VE has mentioned me in half his posts, probably voted me at least once if not twice. | ||
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On May 25 2012 07:03 VisceraEyes wrote: Bugs what do you make of Matt's sudden lapse into normalcy? necessary On May 25 2012 08:13 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay, yeah...I don't know that it's scumminess that I'm seeing. Like, his logic is TOO bad to be like...contrived, or planned. I'm not sure what to do this lynch, so what I'm going to do is vote for the person I'm most convinced is scum. That person is wherebugsgo. ##Unvote: Zealos ##Vote: wherebugsgo *shrug* woot bow down, where's my $10?  On May 25 2012 08:27 marvellosity wrote: You have a point, we are kinda just talking to each other at this stage. Need to see how people post tomorrow. Hopefully zelblade shows up. I'd like to hear from wbg on his other reads. Acid seems weird but I can't tell if it's because he's dumb or because he's scum. For now there are certain things that I see that tend toward me thinking he's not actually scum. I give him a pass for now. Tunkeg is most certainly being dumb, and perhaps I am overestimating him, but based on his town play recently I don't think he's this dumb. Probably scum. Basically I think we should kill four out of five of: Zealos Tunkeg Froggy Katina Zelblade Any two of them flip town and we kill VE. | ||
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Like, if zelblade gets modkilled it would help us immensely. We don't waste a lynch, we lose a townie, yes, but we don't waste further discussion or vote power or whatever. We're going to have to come back to the discussion if zelblade is not modkilled or vigied or something. I'm not counting on us having a vigi because to do so would be naive. I'm relatively sure, like 75%+ sure that zealos, tunkeg, katina are scum. This is the most useless katina I've seen since I played with her in AC as scum. I don't even feel like she's bussing her teammates, which would be nice. If she is, then...well...lol. Zealos has been the topic of conversation for like the last 6 hours and he's had almost nothing to say. Every time the case is brought up against him he makes some nigly counterpoint about one thing and disappears. He only made a case (that was laughable) against hiropro after the day deadline and when it was completely unnecessary. Zealos, Tunkeg, and Katina all follow a similar pattern in high early activity and lower later activity. This is similarly true for both zelblade and froggy, with this being the least true for froggy as he's actually done things recently. Had he continued to stay relatively inactive without prodding I would call him scum but based on my cursory read of his most recent posts, and his tone, I think I shouldn't be including him in the above list. That leaves zelblade, who's just been completely missing. That could mean anything. If he indeed is town I think that means VE is that last scum, which wouldn't surprise me given how much he's been stretching and forcing the issue when it comes to lynching me. He accuses me of contradicting myself when he's done it himself numerous times just to put my name in the list of scum. In fact, he did it just recently just to vote me; in order to vote me, he had to contradict himself on his plea for vote consolidation. | ||
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if he's a scum I seriously doubt he'll get modkilled | ||
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On May 25 2012 19:20 Zealos wrote: I can't believe with all the scummy shit going on today that you guys still think I'm the best lynch.... There's still time guys, let's try and hit red today, instead of wasting another day. your talk is pretty empty, from the looks of it. It sucks for you to say that we should try and hit red today, but not actually come up with a single name because you know you're going to pop red, eh? | ||
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On May 25 2012 19:09 Tunkeg wrote: Or maybe I will post some right before the deadline. We'll see. because it totally makes sense to make a case on a person right before the LYNCH deadline, right? it still saddens me that I have to consider that you could possibly still be this dumb as town, but I'm going to go with the simpler route and assume you're scum. | ||
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On May 25 2012 20:21 Tunkeg wrote: This is true. But I will write it anyways, if what I think (and actually now hope) will happend today happends. You hope a townie dies? Hahaha I wanna kill this guy right now | ||
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##unvote ##vote Tunkeg I don't tolerate people who actually want town to get lynched. | ||
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Okay, two things: If Zealos is telling the truth then hiro is obviously scum and zelblade is as well (Kenpachi rule ftw) Katina can still be scum because her vote on Zealos at this point is worthless and she's known for bussing teammates. Finally, screw whoever said I'm baiting VE, particularly if you're town. I'm going to go back and reread to see who it was cause that actually made me kinda mad lol. | ||
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##unvote ##vote Zealos | ||
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Then again, I don't believe most of the players when they claim DT, probably because in my first 3 or 4 games players like chaoser, Palmar, and Jackal all fakeclaimed blue roles. I haven't been able to take a claim at face value since then, particularly if the circumstances surrounding it don't make sense. Check out XLIV, Some Mafia Game, Resurrection Mafia for chaoser, Palmar, and Jackal in that order. My first/third/second games iirc. I don't really know what it is about people who actually roll DT though, they always end up acting dumber than normal. | ||
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On May 26 2012 05:45 VisceraEyes wrote: What a completely wishywashy response bugs...give a reason why you don't believe him, don't be scared. sure it's wishy washy, I don't know if he's a DT or not. Why he might not be a DT: he has no breadcrumb of his check. he merely tunneled, which any scum can do. Instead of trying to defend himself, refute the case on himself, or further try to convince people to lynch hiro he's just made further one liners that don't advance anything at all. There was a strong existing case on him that he mostly completely ignored. The check doesn't fit with the way he addressed hiro early into day 2. Why he might actually be a DT: he's capable of being dumb, like anyone else really. The precedent isn't unheard of and there have been worse claims. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ I think the only interesting thing about hiro is that no one particularly has a reason to consider him town. No one really wants to kill him because of Zealos, though. This makes me wonder but it doesn't truly matter since if one dies and flips town the other should flip red anyway (barring a miller or a lying town zealos) | ||
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I guess I should wait for the flip first. | ||
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The hardest thing to fake is a town response to something you know is not true, e.g. the towniness of an ally or the validity of an ally's claim. So no, your argument is trash. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:16 VisceraEyes wrote: My argument is "trash" you say? You're not intentionally trying to aggravate me, nooooooooo. Katina wouldn't have thought "Gee willakers, I don't know how I'm going to fake a town response to Zealos' fake-claim...maybe I should just not mention it....that seems like a reasonable action given the psychological factors in play"...you're fucking high Bugs. That is the one post I've purposely used a demeaning word and it was "trash," and you spin it for your own agenda. Nice. If you're town and you're playing like this, no, I did not disrespect you as a player, I respected your abilities. However if you are indeed town this game then yes, I no longer respect it as your play both here and in Liar Game has been damn awful and you seriously need to reconsider how you approach scumhunting. Go back and reread the postgame of liar game if you're still perplexed. However, I am increasingly convinced that you are NOT town and you are scum because if Ver told you that needlessly poking people repeatedly is not a way to scumhunt then if you rolled town you would have actually listened to him. You're stretching every single argument you make to make me look bad. Every single one. Scum choose simple over complex. They're not going to simply mention something they don't have to mention if they can get away with it. Of course that's not what she would have thought if she was scum. If she was scum she wouldn't have wanted to talk about the claim because talking about it is hard. She wouldn't know what to say. What do scum do when they don't know what to say? They don't say anything. That's why I called Zealos scum; when marvellosity presented a case against him he ignored almost all of it because he didn't know how to respond to it. When scum are surprised or taken aback by something they don't respond to it like townies do; townies respond genuinely. Scum either respond in a manner that motivationally makes little sense from a town perspective or they ignore it. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:18 VisceraEyes wrote: LOL How about we wait until tomorrow to decide who to lynch because we don't know who scum are going to kill? Oh that's right, because you do. Nevermind, muse away Bugs. you think scum are going to kill acid then? | ||
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Why undermine my efforts when I've pushed to kill a scum? Marvellosity and I did most of the work today in scraping together votes to try and kill Zealos. Now that I point out that in light of Zealos flipping scum Acid looks very bad, you undermine my thoughts. Why don't you actually refute them with evidence? Go look at Acid's posts. When Zealos claims DT, he instantly uses a weak excuse to believe the claim and moves his vote off. When he's asked to take a stance between zelblade and zealos, he uses a weak reason to choose zelblade despite considering zealos rather scummy (when zelblade wasn't even mentioned) before that. He calls marvellosity's case weak for no apparent reason and never actually backs up his assertion. Do you have explanations for any of these things other than Acid being scum? It's Occam's Razor at its finest here. In order to explain Acid not being scum in light of his actions then you'd need evidence, right? Except for you, since I call Acid scum your easiest way of undermining that effort is to call me scum. Great. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:26 marvellosity wrote: Nova/Matt - have a think about this. What do you think Zealos hoped to achieve by claiming? Let's say for now, Scenario A: Hiro is townie. Two things can come of his claim: 1) people believe him for the moment and lynch Hiro, who flips town, and Zealos gets auto-lynched the next day 2) people don't believe him and he gets lynched immediately. So it's either a 1 for 1 (never normally good for mafia) or it's a straight up death. I haven't done it yet but the one thing I really really need to do is go back and see just how many votes Zealos had at the time he 'breadcrumbed' his check. So, at best in this scenario, Zealos is making a 50% play for a 1 for 1. Or there is scenario B Hiro is scum. Two things can come of the claim 1) people don't believe him and Zealos gets lynched, Hiro gets town credit, especially as he's been attacking Zealos 2) people believe him, Hiro gets lynched as scum and Zealos gets a butt-tonne of town credit for 'catching' a scum Further thoughts: why did Zealos choose Hiro? Seriously, think about this. The easiest way for people to believe your claim is if people believe your target is scummy. Zealos could have chosen, say, zelblade who he even made a case on. He could have chosen Nova_Terra (bolding because choosing him absolutely seems the logical play) who was under HEAVY pressure. Nova would absolutely have been the best guy to fake a claim on. He could even have chosen Katina the uberlurker. But he chose Hiro, who had, what, no suspicion on him? Did anyone suspect Hiro before Zealos' fabricated case on him? All this leads me to think Scenario B is the most likely. We need to consider Hiro on his own terms because arguments about whether he's scum or not in light of Zealos flipping scum are kind of wifomy. Like, if you remember LI with the Toad/VE thing, in a situation like this when a scum flips after having pushed someone else pretty heavily, you have almost no way of knowing what the other guy is except based on his own behavior. In LI that was apparent through Toad's own behavior like his own bad claim and his own lack of scumhunting. Hiro hasn't particularly scumhunted but he'll be forced to now that Zealos is dead and the main pressure is gone. So, we take this upcoming day to watch him carefully. Is he a good lynch for tomorrow? No, as we need a bit of time to determine his alignment. I would say though, that tomorrow is a great time to lynch Acid or Katina. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:30 VisceraEyes wrote: Do I? I don't know, I think scum are going to kill who scum kill...but you talking about his lynch 17 seconds after the night post pretty much ensures they don't, now doesn't it? YOU were the one talking about not talking about reads, not me Bugs...I'm trying to hold you accountable for what you've said THIS game bugs, HERE AND NOW. YOU are the one who has excused your bullshit with "I'm not going to talk about my reads when it can affect what scum are going to do"...not me. And here it is, Night Phase, and you're discussing your reads when it can affect what scum are going to do. Now, I don't know what else you want me to do - this isn't me "twisting" anything to "make you look bad", these are just facts. anyone with half a brain would know scum would never shoot acid. I am discussing these things now because I need to convince vigis to shoot these people. There are no scum medics so there's no harm in that. There was no way either of katina or acid were going to get shot by scum, either. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:38 VisceraEyes wrote: You realize that when you say things like "anyone with half a brain" you're demeaning whoever it is that you're talking to right? Like, I know you're not this abrasive out of game, so that's part of why I feel like you're playing with an agenda Bugs, that's all I'm saying. Now, I'm against directing vigs (as always) aside from saying they should be shooting into lurkers (who include at the moment Acid and Katina among others)....so I'm definitely not against THAT, but that's not at all what you said...you were talking about them in the context of "our next lynch". When you talk about them in that context, it makes it seem like you want them to live the night Bugs, so it didn't appear at all like you were directing vigs. yes, I'm calling you dumb right now because playing with you in this game and having to consider that you might be town is causing me to lose brain cells. | ||
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I'll cool off in a bit, but it's honestly frustrating to have to deal with you when you play the way you do. | ||
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Vigis and lynch targets should always be the same, because both are aiming for the same goal; to kill scum. I never understood why people made the distinction between vig shots and lynches. The only difference really is that one person controls a vig shot and the entire town and scum combined control the lynch. Otherwise the goal for both sides is the same; aim the KP at the opposite faction. Thus if a player is a good lynch they make a good shot and vice versa. So, vigis, shoot at katina and acid, if they live we kill them tomorrow. | ||
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but remember that from a town hiro perspective he's going to be tunneled on zealos solely because of the pressure, right? So from his experience he's not going to have the ability nor the time to scumhunt much. So regardless of his actual alignment the attack is going to destroy his d2 because he's going to do almost nothing but just OMGUS Zealos. Like, look at how VE's attack on me has affected my play. I can't shake or ignore his attacks because I don't know what his alignment is. I have to consider that they might be genuine and so I need to respond to things that are brought up. If he is scum then what does that say about me? Again, it could say almost anything if you just consider player interaction. That's why I think we need time to consider hiro's behavior on its own. Based on how slow stuff goes in this town I don't think it'd be a great idea to lynch hiro tomorrow because the turnaround would be too fast. I'm curious as to what hiro has to say about all of this. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:46 VisceraEyes wrote: If you want me to leave just say so - the power is in your hands completely. I play because I enjoy it, but if it's making others' experience less enjoyable then I'll fucking leave, no big shakes. You want me to fucking leave Bugs? I mean, I'm going to be playing here and the chances of me being SK VE are pretty fucking slim, so what the fuck town VE wouldn't leave, now would he? I don't know what you wish to accomplish by exaggerating things and creating drama, but when you make ultimatums like "it's going to be between me and you" and "we're going to have to settle this eventually" and stupid stuff like that, then it's clear to me that you have an agenda. If your agenda is to kill me then I can confidently say it's anti-town. I can't say for sure if it's pro-scum since I need to see you play more games. Your last game proved that you're more than willing to simply go against the grain just because you believe the person who is going for the grain is scum. It's irrational from my perspective, but perhaps to you it makes some sort of sense as town. I have no idea. Since I saw that I have reservations about calling you scum. I also know that if you are scum and I retaliate it can result in the nuclear destruction of this thread, much worse than what has happened already. I know that from LI. So, put yourself in my shoes. What would you do? | ||
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Then you become even madder when I actually do respond to you? I was right, absolutely nothing I do can ever convince you that I am town. Which means you are scum. @Marvellosity: I'm looking through both Hiro's and Zealos's filters now. I think you may have a valid point about hiro but I want to be cautious, which is why I'm reluctant to lynch hiro tomorrow. I am much more confident about Acid, but if Acid is shot tonight and flips scum then we might be in a good spot. What's interesting in hiro's filter is that he doesn't really mention Zealos at all ever until d2 when he takes your case and votes with it. It could very well have been a bus as there were so many votes on Zealos. As hiro was one of the earliest votes on zealos that would make him a prime candidate to be scum with him, since when scum bus they usually put one or two buddies on the wagon (one early and one later) and then put the fourth guy somewhere else, sometimes even soft defending the bussed guy. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:00 VisceraEyes wrote: Like, here's what I don't get...the moment I start trying to forget that Bugs is scum so the thread can get something accomplished, THIS is when Bugs loses HIS cool and starts to "retaliate"... That's false and you know it. I've been relatively cool and collected until now where Bugs is concerned, and have been asking his opinion on stuff. While it's true that I've thrown in the occasional "but ur next" and "but ur still scum" or whatever, I thought the smileys made it evident that I'm trying to move past what my tunnel-mode was doing to my play earlier. Also false, you've sworn at me at least five or six times. You have been far from cool and collected. So why NOW? Why would Bugs suddenly give a shit about my play NOW when I'm trying to move past it? That's what I'm meditating on as I go smoke a cigarette. :S Because after 40 or 50 posts of the same tired bullshit, anyone can get pissed off. | ||
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On May 21 2012 05:12 Tunkeg wrote: That was a pretty quick start after we were full. Anyways I have decided to play this game in a different manner then before. And if I can make it work I will continue in the games to follow. Previous games The Tunkeg of old was all about reaction based reads, which meant that I would provoke certain players to get a reaction. I would have a hypothesis about how they would respond as town and how they would respond as scum, and work off off that. The way I would do this was: A: Suggest some kind of plan (or taking sides, and arguing for or against if someone else proposed a plan). B: Picking fights. Why change it up? Even though I think it was a great way of finding scum for me. It wasn’t necessarily good for town. Many times it took up to much space, and some might even label it as disruptive. It have also led me close to being lynched many times, and often put me on the defensive straight from the get go. Constantly defending yourself makes it hard to put effort into proper scumhunting. So what am I changing it to? My goal in these games is to figure people out. Sure I definitely want to win, I hate losing, but more than winning I want to be right. To be right I will need to focus on my analysis, instead of fighting. What this means is: 1. I will not be posting as much as before. I will try to post better and longer posts though. And less one liners and useless crap. I will try to format my posts better. 2. I will control my temper. I will not be getting into any fights, I won’t be starting any and I will try not to get pulled into one. This also means I won’t be spending a lot of time defending my actions. If my posts are scummy you lynch me, if my posts aren’t you don’t . 3. I will try to post better analysis, and avoid insulting the ones I analyze. Again, I will try to post quality posts, and not many posts, meaning I won’t spend my time defending my analysis, I can clarify, but I won’t argue with nitpickers. lynch all liars. the fucking dick strikes again | ||
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Protect marvellosity. Don't touch me. Don't touch VE. Maybe consider Mattchew. But really, protect marvellosity. If he's scum at this point then I don't particularly care because I'm actually enjoying playing with him. I'm willing to die because if I die then at least then I'll be confirmed town. | ||
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but he can scumhunt! | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:11 Tunkeg wrote: You want to have WBG modkilled as well the marv? Equality or? what, for insulting myself, or mocking you? mad scum is mad sounds like | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:13 Tunkeg wrote: This was before you started your BM crusade. And in fact I won't be picking fights, just to not shit up the thread, cause if I were to respond to every insult from you in this game, it would have been 20 pages of shitslining. So I'll leave it at that. I am playing to my winconditions by not replying to you anymore, and by sheeping VE. I'd love to see quotes of my apparent BM crusade. | ||
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It's almost funnier than when I try to make someone mad when I'm scum. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:17 VisceraEyes wrote: The opposite - he's trying to implant the idea that what he's doing now and the thing he mentioned look different when in fact they're exactly the same. Subtle psychology thing. rofl manipulative wbg strikes again | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:20 Tunkeg wrote: Aggressive is good, and fine. If you make it with points. I would like to see you in any setting go up to someone and call them stupid, and not expect at least being called a dick. So this is going to be a little game irrelevant, but it's true for me. this is a game, a game based on logic, information, emotion, and a variety of other things. Players like Palmar and I (among others) are quite aggressive in our approach, yes. I mention Palmar because he's probably the player I played most similarly to, simply through the number of games I played with him and the effectiveness of his style (though I didn't necessarily try to emulate his play). It's a style I use in debates as well; I'm not afraid to attack moral implications of certain beliefs or worldviews because I have a strong conviction for standing up for what one believes in. So far this game, though, I've refrained from using this style because newer players on the forum don't always respond the same way to it that older players did, and it renders the style somewhat ineffective. Up till about three pages ago I hadn't done anything in my normal style. I've been attacked on meta grounds for not being aggressive before as town. DFM2 comes to mind. LI comes to mind. Those are my recent town games. This game I wasn't attacked on meta grounds but I have been attacked for apparently being aggressive when I haven't been (which has made me really amused). It means one or a mixture of three things; I'm somehow aggressive without trying to, or I've cracked and I've started letting things slip, or I'm being misrepresented. I think it may be a mixture of all 3 but up till about 2-3 pages ago I don't think I had done anything to provoke anyone, until I called VE's argument trash and then the half brain comments. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, the timing of his lapse into normal posting was troubling...like, the thread was in shambles because of me and bugs and his answer was.....to stop posting concisely and shit up the thread further? ... ... ... Like...I don't know, it doesn't make sense. Also his absolute certainty that Bugs being town like ALL game mystifies me considering the lengths bugs has gone to to not talk about his reads and shit. I think the only person who's talked about reads more extensively than I have this game is marvellosity. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:30 VisceraEyes wrote: Selectively not responding to people is provocation Bugs, you conveniently don't mention that - as it's something you admit to doing and was the whole reason I started considering you scum in the first place...or have you forgotten? playing on a need to know basis isn't provocation, it's a tactic. If everyone were fully transparent with their reads the thread would be at 200 pages and scum would win simply by people not reading the thread anymore. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The townie thing to do is to comment on a claim Bugs, you're literally trying to make town buy that AS scum Katina wouldn't be trying to emmulate town play and actually CHOSE to not mention Zealos' claim. As scum, the IDEA is to emmulate town play, so if I were scum and in Katina's position, I'd have ABSOLUTELY mentioned Zealos' claim, the very notion that scum wouldn't is absolutely ludicrous to me. the townie thing to do is comment on the claim. Therefore, not commenting on the claim makes katina town. Hahaha you make it incredibly difficult for me not to mock you sometimes. | ||
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Her town play is very very strong. She emulates Foolishness, and honestly she does it incredibly well. When we were scum in Arkham City together you recall how she played? That was her first game and for the most part she just stayed under the radar. That's what she's been trying to do this game. In games where as town she gets accused, Katina is willing to get her hands dirty. Sure, she doesn't respond nearly as much as other players, but she at the very least DOES respond. She doesn't try to feign that her posts are of quality when they're not, such as in this case. I'm not convinced that she's scum but I'd much rather kill katina over most of the other players in the game right now, probably even tunkeg. Acid goes first IMO though, he's almost definitely scum. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:34 Acid~ wrote: Killing me for making a bad read will not help the town. Let's vig Katina and then we can lynch one of you or VE. I made my case on why at least one of you is scum, I'll dig it up and repost it in the morning if need be. you can't just lynch one of us, you have to decide which one of us is scum if you actually believe that. So which one is it? Why can't we both be scum? Or town? Since there should be four scum, you need a read from the rest of the player pool too, right? Who would that be? | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:38 VisceraEyes wrote: Like, you say that your question to Katina was part of your "tactics"...like, you had started to think NT was town at that point...but what about my tactics bugs? You were asking Katina for her read on him to further your read on her, but what about my question trying to further my read on you? It's the exact same thing, except that I was asking you in the spirit of cooperation so that we could try and figure shit out TOGETHER and your response was "I wanna kill VE" Like....do you see where I'm going with this? what are you talking about? I called you scum because you said a couple of shady things. One about balance and another about conforming to your meta or something like that. I wanted to see your reaction. Had I known you'd explode into a frenzy obviously I wouldn't have done it, but at that point there was nothing I could do to stop you from going into a rabid frenzy over me being scum and making the entire thread into me vs you. I even straight up said I wasn't ignoring you but I had written down thoughts and forgotten to post them. You didn't accept that though, just like you didn't accept literally anything I said. | ||
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I'm pretty sure the most likely players to be scum are those who are not involved in this conversation right now. | ||
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If I'm not around longer then I should probably let you guys know certain things I've observed, so I'll put that up before deadline. | ||
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Going back and looking at the votes that sheds a lot of information. Thinking from a scum perspective, you at least want the chance of a mislynch. So when we go back and reread we should look at who would've been good mislynch candidates. | ||
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I'm also going to have to post everything relatively quickly since I need to leave at like...5:20 EDT. lol. (4:50 now) Firstly my reasons for suspecting Acid: When I first started prodding Acid his responses were relatively weak to me. On May 24 2012 09:40 Acid~ wrote: Zelblade. He's posted nothing of value and his vote on Jeb was just a follower vote. He also promised us content but has failed to deliver. Katina lurks too much. And finally, I think there's at least one scum between you and VE. Haven't made up my mind which one yet. Both of his targets were lurkers, and it's fairly easy to make a case on a lurker. Just say you'll kill them, since they're not doing anything. It's much harder to talk about more active players (such as zealos, VE, or me). Acid does a fairly scummy thing here in that he says he's convinced one of me and VE is scum but not which one. This forces the issue of VE vs WBG but doesn't actually give us any insight into what he thinks. There's also no justification for it and every time he's been asked for justification there's almost none provided. Think back on Zealos; this is exactly what he did with his scumreads. When asked for scumreads the closest he got was tunneling hiro based on non-issues, after the lynch and after he was under some more serious pressure. Likewise, Acid didn't really do anything until put under some pressure by ET (and later me). Even so, his actions haven't really lined up with the interest of finding scum but rather have lined up with saving his own ass. He seems to do just enough to continue living rather than actually help town; this is apparent in how he acts on the zelblade vs zealos issue later. On May 24 2012 18:48 Acid~ wrote: Fine, I'll respond. I don't think I would lynch Tunkeg today. There's nothing about his play that seems scummy to me. Zealos, that might happen if you could make a real case against him. The tone of response here makes it apparent that it was his intention to continue ignoring me. Why? I had a perfectly valid reason for ignoring VE on that same subject: I had already been asking Acid that question and it made little sense to reveal my own opinions on a question I wanted a scummy target to answer. It makes very little sense, though, for Acid to ignore that same question. There is no justification provided either. Again, we see a barebones answer. Zealos "might" happen if I could make a real case against him. The double standard is apparent here; Acid is completely fine with lynching zelblade, a player for whom no real case existed at that point. Yet, in order for his vote to go to Zealos, there would need to be a "real" case on Zealos pushed by me specifically (and marvellosity comes in and points out that there already exists a substantial case on zealos) So Acid spends 20ish minutes reading marvellosity's case on zealos and comes back with this: On May 24 2012 19:17 Acid~ wrote: After reading both your case and Zealos's filter, I wouldn't say your case is fake, but it's a little on the weak side. I would much rather get rid of either Zelblade or Katina. Of the two, I think Zelblade is more dangerous. He hasn't posted a single analysis or scumread and was content with bandwagoning Mouldy Jeb. ##vote zelblade Note there is NO specific response to the case. The case was pretty substantial and had at least 5-6 points in favor of zealos being scum. Among them were zealos not scumhunting, choosing to tunnel hiro after the lynch, contradicting himself, etc. etc. None of these were addressed or refuted in this post. Again, a very barebones response and very unsatisfactory. What Acid did here is undermine marvellosity's case. Undermining is quite easy to do as scum; you just dismiss the case and then push an alternative lynch of someone who you think is more likely to get bandwagoned. Zelblade was that choice. Recall that this is what Acid said when zelblade was afk On May 25 2012 03:46 Acid~ wrote: I have made my case against zelblade. It's pretty fucking straightforward and I made it in direct reply to a question you asked me, so I would assume you've read it. Practice what you preach. Zelblade lurked for most of the game, never tried to scumhunt, never shared reads or offered anything of value to the town in any way whatsoever. His sole contribution to the thread so far has been to vote for Jeb. Did you read his case for Jeb? Here it is, in all its glory : Now, this a call to ALL TOWNIES : read zelblade's filter. ALL OF IT. It won't take long, there's barely a page and that alone tells you more than you need to know. When zelblade came back, did this change at all? Not really, but Acid changed votes to stay with the town sentiment. When Zealos claimed, Acid immediately voted for Hiro without actually thinking about the claim. He talked very little about it. Contrast this with the towniest responses I saw to the claim and IMO the most town looking players all discussed the claim at least in two or three posts before coming to a conclusion. Since then I've become less sure of Acid being scum, particularly as he pointed out a few things I don't think a scum would point out. However I may just be second guessing myself, or perhaps I'm just giving acid too much credit to begin with and he's just a townie who doesn't feel like playing the analysis game. At any rate tomorrow I expect Acid to step it up and provide a proper case on who he thinks is scum (assuming he survives the night). If I die I expect you all to hold him to that. If I don't die I'll do it myself. | ||
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You're dumb. Like seriously, learn to read. Marvellosity was the obvious night kill. No excuses for him to die except us having no medic. We do have a vigi apparently, and I was wrong about Acid. Oh well. We kill Katina. ##vote Katina | ||
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What the fuck? Why would you claim doctor in a situation in which you're not about to die? ??????????? What townie doctor does that? ##unvote ##vote VisceraEyes | ||
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You clearly didn't protect marvellosity, so who could you possibly have a better town read on than him? Can't be me for equally obvious reasons | ||
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What is wrong with you people? | ||
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From what I saw I saw Nova say he considered claiming vet. Wtf is that supposed to mean? | ||
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Your claim looks serious and will continue to perplex me until you die. Heck, probably even after you die. Regardless of what you flip, really. | ||
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A player like VE is not going to try to protect a blue because townies aren't often in the position to predict hits like that. The tried and true notion is to protect whoever looks town or is confirmed. Tonight there's only one choice and it's FROGGY, not NT. Why? Because the only thing about NT we know for sure is that he spams. Otherwise we know next to nothing. It's not like these hits were particularly hard to predict. N1 there were like 3 choices, it was between me/VE/ET. I predicted the ET hit myself because I assumed the way VE was attacking me, even if we were both town neither of us would die. N2 was so obvious I even said it aloud for the entire thread to hear. If the town medic wasn't on marvellosity last night he was high or brainless. VE claiming doctor makes 0 sense as town. As town the next night you're either going to be lit up or you're going to be roleblocked. In fact if I were scum I'd roleblock the doctor claim and then shoot the town like froggy or whoever and make a mislynch out of VE. VE by no means is stupid. He would have thought about these concerns before claiming. He knows doctors don't claim ever unless they're going to get lynched. He knows mafia will always try to kill the most sensible townies first: rarely is it that they forego that in favor of dropping everything to hunt for blues. In light of this his claimed protects are moronic and it's no way that they are real, and his claim is equally perplexing because for a townie it's just negative EV the entire way. | ||
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Pretend they aren't killing me because they fear there's a medic on me. So, they need to identify the medic and kill him. They use the RB to block who they think is blue (if they have one) but that might not be good enough. They wouldn't do this if they had a rolecop, I don't think. Scum claiming medic puts town in a weird spot. A real medic will counterclaim VE, and then it becomes about who is most believable. If no one counterclaims then the scum can try to keep himself alive or force the lynch on someone else. This is great for VE since he has apparently thought he could get me lynched all game. The other prerequisite for this is having at least one scum in a safeish position. Obviously as Acid flipped town we have to reevaluate and consider who that might be. It could be NT. It could be both NT and Katina because they're all distancing each other but there is no serious push between them. It could be Navillus. At this point, I don't know. Now imagine the real medic CCs VE. They roleblock him, shoot me, or the other way around, etc etc. It doesn't really matter what they do at that point. | ||
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I found that bit funny | ||
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On May 28 2012 00:40 VisceraEyes wrote: It's not wierd, it's called WIFOM. Telling medics to protect him is a psychology thing...public orders are just that, public...and that means that scum can see it ya? So we're operating under the assumption that scum aren't going to shoot Marvel right? Because he's medic protected publicly. What does that mean if you're a doctor...that means that protecting marvel is a waste right? Because scum aren't going to hit him. So you're actually better off protecting someone OTHER than Marvel because there's a higher chance of actually protecting someone. I mean, obviously if you don't believe my claim then this is pointless, but as the Doctor, that's my view on being directed. You call it WIFOM and then your conclusion is different than what it would be if it was actually WIFOM. Doctor protects are never WIFOM. You always protect the most town looking player. Always. Look at Cop You Idiot mafia: if the medic protted Tunkeg he would've lived. Look at this game. Both ET and marvellosity were really obvious shots. No one in their right mind would shoot me as long as I'm at the forefront of discussion. If I request to die most mafia leave me alive as well (it's worked all the time in the past) The fact that I predicted the marvellosity shot should prove that he was the most likely to get hit. | ||
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On May 28 2012 09:57 VisceraEyes wrote: The fact that he was lurky was WHY I protected froggy. My theories about playing doctor are well known and documented, and anyone who has played with me is well aware that my claim makes sense from my perspective...even Bugs though he'll deny it until post-game. False, I have not played with you as a blue as far as I can remember. If your blue style is "plays like an idiot" then I would not be aware of it. If you actually flip blue then your play is indefensible. Playing doctor isn't about blindly protecting the towniest players...often the towniest seeming players are scum. Yeah it's about protecting town assets. You can easily say that the lurking players are the most likely to be scum too. The person most likely to get shot is nearly always going to be a vocal and useful townie. What was ET? Vocal and useful townie. Marvellosity? Vocal and useful townies. The players who get shot are those who are not afraid of pushing lynches and those who are generally impervious to lynch attention. Not that neither ET nor marvellosity even so much as got a serious vote the day before they died. Playing Doctor is always about stopping night hits. ALWAYS. There are always circumstances beyond "appearances" to consider. And you as a doctor have failed miserably. Before you guys blindly listen to Bugs, please consider that regardless of what he says, different people play in different ways and my flip is going to prove that fact if nothing else. you flipping town would prove that you played yet again like an idiot and nothing else. Your play, if you are town, this game has been atrocious. By no means does it make any sense for you to ever claim doctor in your position. Neither of your protects make a shred of sense and your behavior now doesn't make any sense either. Everything you've done can be explained from the perspective of furthering a scum agenda because nearly everything you've done has positive EV as scum and wholly negative EV as town. Indeed if you are town you have played completely against your win condition. | ||
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On May 28 2012 11:46 VisceraEyes wrote: Everyone take hard look at Bug' last post...phrasing like 'idiotic' and 'atrocious' is designed specifically to infuriated me, as I like to consider myself and Bugs pretty tight generally. If he's town and using this type of language and honestly believes the things he's saying, I have to seriously reconsider that assessment.v :-/ being friends outside of this game has nothing to do with it. If you're playing like an ass I'm going to tell you that you're playing like an ass. | ||
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okay. you go with that, tell me how it goes. | ||
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On May 28 2012 15:05 VisceraEyes wrote: My claim had nothing to do with pressure. My claim had to do with explaining my motivations before being lynched. I don't know if you recall, but I said I wanted to be lynched BEFORE I claimed. Me flipping town absolutely does prove that you're scum Bugs, and everyone is going to realize it when I flip Doctor. Everything I've said is suddenly going to make sense because they don't think I'm scum anymore and you're going to fry. I have faith in town. If you do flip town then the only idiot in postgame will be you, not me. I am town and nothing you do will change that. If you're actually town what you've done so far is not reversible. You take full responsibility for whatever happens afterward. I don't know what town will do but in the 1% chance you flip town I'm confident they won't kill me. To do that would be to throw the game. However, at this point if you're not scum that means scum get a free lynch of a townie today. As town you being okay with that is just perplexing. It would mean there are 3 scum who are not you and not me. Imagine for a second I'm not scum. Who besides me is scum? You haven't done any hunting all game. (and please, calling me scum is by no means scumhunting.) If you are town, why is it that you have chosen to do exactly what you did in Liar Game? Didn't you read the postgame analysis written by Ver, in which he says that merely antagonizing people, even if they are scum, is no way to actually scumhunt? You lose all credibility and if you're wrong it just makes you look like scum. | ||
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On May 28 2012 15:05 VisceraEyes wrote: My claim had nothing to do with pressure. My claim had to do with explaining my motivations before being lynched. I don't know if you recall, but I said I wanted to be lynched BEFORE I claimed. Me flipping town absolutely does prove that you're scum Bugs, and everyone is going to realize it when I flip Doctor. Everything I've said is suddenly going to make sense because they don't think I'm scum anymore and you're going to fry. I have faith in town. you claimed because you wanted to make this about me and you. That's a fucking horrendous reason to claim, and you know it. Since when have you known anybody who flipped town to do that? If you're town and wrong you doom town to lose because you can't get off your tunneling high horse. If you're scum you sacrifice yourself but destroy the thread in the process. Neither makes much sense, but the latter is far more plausible given that the scumteam wouldn't lose in such a situation. Scum win either way...so how can you seriously argue that what you're doing is in the favor of town? | ||
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99% chance. Looking at the vote count from the previous page I'm incredibly confident. Looking at the nonvoter pool and then at the pool on you and it's a no-brainer. | ||
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If I was a miller, scum framed me n1 and then a DT checked me and got back green. Scum would be like WTF looool | ||
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On May 29 2012 06:33 Katina wrote: You know what would be hilarious? Is if that wasn't a useless post. The hilarious part is the irony in this post. | ||
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whatever, wasting time now is not the way to win the game. I'm curious as to those players who simply jumped on the wagon without really doing anything else. The person who stands out most is still katina to me, but we'll have to see, I guess.N_T said a few weird things and if Katina's town and just super inactive it makes more sense that she's attacking him. In addition, N_T's claim looks less plausible in light of VE flipping medic and froggy being confirmed, simply on balance grounds. It's not impossible and I don't think we should lynch NT solely on that but I think it's something we should consider. Froggy you're almost certainly dead tonight. If you could post your reads that would be nice. | ||
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like, really, wtf has gotten into you? | ||
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VE was lynched not because of his plan. That's fairly obvious. His notion that I am scum was moronic. He was lynched because he claimed doctor under no lynch pressure merely to ensure that I get lynched afterward. He had no DT check of me. He had no reason at all to call me scum. He was nothing more than dumb. If you are town how do you not see this? | ||
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Partly the reason I was and still am suspicious of Katina is because she was in that game and yet so far said nothing about VE. She has refused to comment on him at all. On day 1 of that game VE basically did the exact same thing he did in this game. He began to insistently call me scum for no particular reason, and continually poked and prodded me without explanation. He went so far as to include Ace as well on his list of scum (also for no reason; his stated reasons were "I don't like their play/attitude"). My number 1 target on d1 in Liar Game wasn't even VE; it was sandro. Because of his atrociously bad play I decided to call for his death as well. This game has been more of the same. VE blew up over me saying once that I considered him scum. It's as if he couldn't handle that singular accusation. Since that I haven't really even been pushing VE as scum. If you look at my votes I never even considered voting VE until he decided to inexplicably claim doctor in a situation in which (I thought) no real doctor would ever ever claim. It was such a bad claim that you have to kill the person over it, because it's so fucking antitown. It was like the Toad vet claim from LI on d2; it served no purpose for a townie and merely introduced a huge element of WTF. Just think about it; in what past games have you seen a town doctor with 0 votes on him claim a few hours into d3, or any day for that matter? When do town doctors ever claim if not to save themselves from lynch? Scum use claims to keep themselves alive and push their agenda. Townies should only ever claim when town benefit more from the information than scum do. In this case obviously scum benefited far more because from a townie perspective you have no idea whether VE is telling the truth or not. This is why I kept alluding back to Liar Game, because I hoped that if he was town VE would at the very least listen to what Incog had to say, if not to me. In Liar Game's postgame discussion, this is what I am referring to: On May 25 2012 13:49 Ver wrote: Incognito's Analysis: wherebugsgo makes a good case on sandroba, which is exactly the case EchelonTee should have been pushing (Hint: if ET doesn't jump on to wbg's case something fishy is going on here). Turns out ET comes back to the thread with a massive post on VE, who is the other potential lynch candidate for the day. Fortunately for him, nobody catches this discrepancy, his post is ignored, and he survives until...the end game? This is one of the easiest mafia you will find. Day 1 Round A had an attrocious atmosphere, and the orgainzation in Round B was pretty bad too. There was no consensus on who to lynch, and VE turned out to be the last minute lynch as Radfield came in at the last minute with enough votes on prplhz to change the lynch from prplhz to VE. Ironically, out of rage, VE actually killed himself because of his 5 votes for sandroba. If he didn't do that, sandroba would have died instead of VE and the game would have turned out a lot differently. Note that this isn't the only time sandroba is going to be saved by an enraged townie - Cephiro makes the same mistake announcing 5 votes for sandroba on day 5, which further helped the Harimoto cult and didn't force them to make a decision on whether to save sandroba or not. VE's death also shows how you shouldn't be playing town. VE provoked wbg all game, but wasn't even wbg's prime target. I think it would be likely that sandroba would have been lynched day 1 if it weren't for VE's insistence that wbg was mafia, which pretty much turned the whole town against him. It didn't take much manipulation from the mafia to get him lynched instead of sandroba at this point. If you're going to antagonize people, you have to do it with a purpose. Just repeatedly saying "you're scum bro" isn't going to get you anywhere, even if he does turn out to be mafia. Even though VE eventually gives a reason why he thinks wbg is mafia, its hard to actually take his posts seriously as a whole. Credibility is important. You can't expect to go around flinging mud at people and not being held accountable for it. Note the bolded. This is exactly what happened again this game. I thought that VE had learned his lesson and because I was seeing the same thing again, it meant VE had to be scum. Why on earth would he make the same mistake twice? But nope, I overestimated VE and honestly his play was atrocious. He did exactly what he was told not to do and he repeated his mistake in possibly an even worse manner than in Liar. In this game he was a power role and he threw away not only his life but also his ability to help town win with protects. I would probably bet the reason he didn't protect marvellosity is because I said marvellosity should be protected. Because he was too thick headed to see the truth I think he didn't protect marvellosity because he thought me saying marvellosity was going to die would mean scum weren't shooting him. Anyway, this is all a bit irrelevant right now. What is relevant is that Katina has so far had nothing to say on the matter despite being there last game. She saw it happen and she saw similar events unfolding like I did this game. Yet, so far she has done absolutely nothing. Then, you have Mattchew, who seems to almost be feigning outrage. I prefer Katina over Mattchew right now, but both are acting really strangely. | ||
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On May 29 2012 09:59 Mattchew wrote: I am playing the hand we were dealt WBG... I believe that playing with a player of the caliber of VE that his main read for like 2/3 of the game is almost as good (if not arguably better) than a DT check man I wouldn't trust VE's reads any more than the average player at this point. I assumed he was just having a bad game in Liar but if this is how he is going to continue to play then I can't say that I have that same confidence I used to have when he nailed 3 of us in storm. I was telling the honest truth when I said I prefer SK VE over any other kind, because that was the last time I actually saw him use his brain. | ||
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On May 29 2012 09:54 Mattchew wrote: So now you realize that it was moronic to lynch VE instead of NT/Hiro... cool I didn't see you opposing it. So you were completely fine going along with it, but when push comes to shove and someone has to take responsibility it's not you, right? Cause you have no spine. | ||
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On May 29 2012 09:59 Mattchew wrote: I am playing the hand we were dealt WBG... I believe that playing with a player of the caliber of VE that his main read for like 2/3 of the game is almost as good (if not arguably better) than a DT check go read Liar Game d1. VE's top two reads were Ace and myself. We both fucking flipped town. | ||
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You at no point actually took a stance of "VE must be scum because of X" or "VE must be town because of Y". Same with hiro/NT. All you're doing is setting up scenarios and playing out future eventualities based on what is happening in the thread. | ||
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keep an eye on Katina and Navillus. There should probably be a scum between nova and hiro as well based on the claim, though it's certainly possible both are town because of a frame or whatever. Nova should most probably survive tonight; if he doesn't have a check due to roleblock then it probably doesn't mean much. However if he actually does have a check then evaluate the claim based on whether the check makes sense. I am not confident in either hiro or nova flipping scum because I haven't paid much attention to either. If I had to pick one to kill I'd probably kill Nova on the notion that he actually breadcrumbed vet to fake claim that. Townies shouldn't be thinking of those types of things. Then again, townies won't often actually reveal that they were doing something like that (understand my confusion here?) I am going to assume scum will shoot froggy and I will live, which means I'll be around tomorrow. If I die and froggy doesn't then pay more attention to his opinions. He's not infallible but he's confirmed town. So far he's been making enough sense as it is, so I would put trust into his reads. | ||
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I am actually inclined to agree with Katina. Katina are you willing to work together? So far all game you've been sitting back and watching town burn. I've thought you are scum and I've been wrong before. Perhaps I am wrong again. | ||
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give me your opinion on Navillus. | ||
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The only explanation for it is that they don't have a roleblocker and they wanted to lock the lynch on hiro. It's one of the oldest scum tactics; when you're in a situation where town will lynch a guy if someone else dies, scum kill the guy and then watch town tear itself apart with no real effort of any kind. I mean think about it, if hiro is town it's a perfect plan for scum. | ||
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If scum framed hiro then it makes total sense that Zealos would call hiro scum (and claim DT at that.) Obviously the pussy way out is to simply kill hiro. I suppose we can do that if we're lazy and I certainly feel lazy. I just think it's too easy and that scum would probably not kill NT if that was the case. Maybe I'm just paranoid and this scumteam doesn't know what it's doing. Who knows. | ||
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On May 30 2012 14:18 Mattchew wrote: but that means scum framed hiro 2 nights in a row as NT dt checked him the night AFTER zealos's claim nah that's not necessarily true. Scum only had to frame him n2 because zealos died d2. The suspicion on hiro would be on n2. Scum weren't trying to make hiro look like scum until d2. Anyway if you guys are not willing to lynch navillus then I'll go with hiro. | ||
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##vote Hiropro | ||
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On May 31 2012 05:39 froggynoddy wrote: Guys/girl wtf. We cannot kill hiro. N_T getting killed by scum only makes sense if if hiro is town. N_T was far from confirmed in his role, scum kill me last night and then get an easy mislynch on N_ N_ . Killing N't is forcing a hiro lynch, why would we ever do something scum is forcing us to do? We should lynch Katina. She is definite scum,her play makeshift sense as town. ##vote Katina I agree with you about Katina. If anyone's noticed, as soon as NT died Katina shifted to attacking Mattchew. When I said "Katina maybe you're right" to see if she'd do anything more she continued to attack Mattchew. Fact of the matter is that Mattchew is probably town at this point and Katina would probably have seen the signs if she was town. I question her motives and her play all game has been really shady. Sadly because of the confirmed red check we have people not wanting to lynch anyone but hiro. Anyway, there's two explanations and unfortunately we have no way of knowing which one's more likely: 1. NT was shot because scum have no RB, and as froggy's shot was spent it was a pick your poison type scenario for scum. 2. NT was shot because he had a framed result on hiro, which meant that killing NT would mean a free town kill for scum. Obviously both of these scenarios entail opposite actions. In support of a hiro lynch though, he does nothing to defend himself. It's as if he's doomed himself to death. What's weird about this, though, is that Katina for the most part refuses to comment on lynch candidates each day. She always brings someone in who has no real chance of being lynched so that she can continue to feign outrage. In addition when asked about Navillus she pretty quickly changed the suspect despite finding him suspicious. From the evidence right now it seems like all 3 of them (hiro, katina, navillus) might be scum. | ||
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However, seeing as there are 3 scum left who do you think the other two are? Tunkeg and Navillus? | ||
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##unvote ##vote katina | ||
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Katina, normally your reads as town are good but you do almost nothing to establish yourself as town. You push your cases very weakly and for the most part ignore town discussion that has nothing to do with your targets specifically. This makes you look scummy. I feel like in liar game you didn't do that as much, but in this game it's far more prominent. (as a note: you do it as scum too) I think the only time you mentioned Zealos, for example, was like two hours from deadline. That's very scummy, since any scum can come in at that point when the lynch is secured and then tack on a vote, as it doesn't even matter. The other problem is that you refused to acknowledge evidence that Nova was town. If you noticed I got a town read on nova within about 3-4 hours of attacking him in d1. You, on the other hand, kept up that tunnel throughout day 1, day 2, and day 3. That's a huge waste of time and incredibly antitown. Now you do the same with Mattchew who I believe to be town. Since normally your reads are very good and at the very least you are open to a change of opinion I don't think you can be town this game. | ||
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Navillus is the logical choice of lynch next. | ||
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Blindly trusting a check without considering its context is not only brazenly stupid, it's scummy too. | ||
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gg gl hf town! | ||
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Also screw you VE lol. I didn't do anything to agitate you and yet you did the exact same thing you did in Liar Game. I tried keeping my cool for about 40 pages before I just couldn't take anymore | ||
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 Great job by marvellosity btw, I think you played really well. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I don't blame anyone for lynching me. I hope my credibility has tanked to a level where I'm not so feared as scum that anything I do warrants an instant lynch. I really hope this is not the reason you played the way you did, honestly. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 19 2011 13:44 VisceraEyes wrote: I can't think of a situation where you'd want to claim medic unless you're like, the leading candidate for lynch and you think that claiming will save your life...you almost won because of the medic saves, and you probably WOULD have won if you hadn't claimed. | ||
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